Escaping Scientology

[NGNM85]

Now that Katie Holmes’ inspired escape has brought the Church of Scientology back into the limelight, it seems like a perfect time to reflect on the machinations of this sinister cult, and those who escaped like Katie Holmes, and her daughter Suri, and, perhaps, more importantly, those who didn’t.

Lisa McPherson

After spending half her life as a member of the Church of Scientology, Lisa McPherson told friends she was ready to get out. At the age of 36 she wished to reunite with her family and friends and start a new life in Dallas Texas. She hoped to visit them on Thanksgiving and to be home for good by Christmas.

On November 18, 1995, McPherson was involved in a minor car accident. She apparently not injured, but got out of her car and took all her clothes off and began walking down the street. She was taken to a near by hospital, physically evaluated, and found to be unharmed. The hospital wanted her psychologically evaluated, but with the assistance of fellow Scientologist’s, McPherson checked herself out of the hospital.

McPherson was taken to the Fort Harrison Hotel for "rest and relaxation" according to the CoS. Sworn statements demonstrate that McPherson was intended to be put on the "Introspective Rundown", that Scientologist’s use with members who have had a psychotic breakdown.

The church placed McPherson in a cabana and kept 24 hours watch over her. Detailed logs were kept on her day-to-day care. Most of these logs were kept, except the logs dealing with the last three days of her life. These logs were summarized from the originals and the originals shredded.

McPherson’s "care logs," narrate the last 17 days of her life. McPherson was incoherent and sometimes violent. Her nails were cut so she wouldn’t scratch herself or staff. She bruised her fists and feet while hitting the wall. She had difficulty sleeping and was being given natural supplements and the drug chloral hydrate to help her sleep. She wouldn’t eat solids; her diet consisted of protein shakes, vitamins, and pieces of banana.

On the fifth day of December, church staffers contacted David Minkoff, a Scientologist medical doctor who had twice prescribed drugs for McPherson without seeing her. They requested him to prescribe an antibiotic to McPherson because she seemed to have an infection. Minkoff refused and stated she needed to be brought to his hospital before he would prescribe anything. The staffers objected, expressing fear that McPherson would be put under psychiatric care. When they arrived at Minkoff’s hospital, 45 minutes north of Clearwater, having passed four other hospitals on the way, McPherson was dead on arrival.

Scientologist’s called McPherson’s family to say she died of a blood clot or meningitis. A suspicious death investigation began the next day and an autopsy was performed. In the original report the state’s medical examiner, Joan wood stated that the autopsy showed McPherson had deteriorated slowly, going without fluids for five to ten days, was underweight, had several bruises, and bed sores. They also showed she had been unconscious for up to 48 hours before her death and had dark brown lesions consistent with "insect/animal bites" in the lower right arm just above the wrist. Wood said that cockroaches had probably bitten McPherson. Wood concluded that Lisa McPherson died of pulmonary embolism caused by bed rest and dehydration. Scientology responded by claiming Wood was lying and sued for defamation.

The St. Petersburg Times contacted five medical experts for their opinion on the report. All five confirmed the findings. Scientologist’s responded by stating all five doctors should have been given the whole autopsy report not just the vitreous fluid tests.

Scientology hired its own experts to oppose Wood’s findings. They concluded that Lisa McPherson died suddenly and unexpectedly of a blood clot in her left leg that originated from a knee bruise she suffered in a minor car accident 17 days earlier.

This evidence was sent to Wood for review. The scientific evidence sent included:

-Literature that shows dehydration does not cause blood clots.

-Research on a substance known as ketone, which people produce when they are dehydrated, starving, or fasting. McPherson’s bodily fluids showed no ketone.

-Findings from a body measurement expert hired by the church. The expert compared autopsy photos with pictures from before the car accident. The expert concluded, "there was no appreciable weight loss", which contradicted the prosecutions view that McPherson lost 20-40 pounds while in Scientology’s care.

-A report by Morton Plant, Hospital doctor who saw McPherson just before she entered Scientology’s Fort Harrison Hotel. He stated that McPherson already was thin with protruding check bones.

-A report from D. Davis, the pathologist who conducted the autopsy for Wood’s office. He concluded that McPherson’s body was of average nutritional status.

-Medical literature and sworn testimony that it says proves the eye fluid samples were improperly handled by Wood’s office, incompetently tested at an independent lab, and were ultimately contaminated.

Due to the vitreous fluid tests, the prosecution maintained that McPherson was dehydrated. Chemical pathologists concurred with the initial coroners report. Dr. Alan Wu testified that ketones need not be present in special cases of dehydration where McPherson was fed proteins and therefore didn’t create measurable ketones.

In 1998, the CoS had its malpractice insurance pay the estate of Lisa McPherson $100,000 though they claim to have done nothing wrong.


Quentin Hubbard

L. Ron Hubbard’s son died under suspicious circumstances in 1976. He disappeared from his home in Clearwater Florida, and was found unconscious in a car next to the Las Vegas airport. The engine of the vehicle was still running and a hose ran from the exhaust to the window. (It appeared the hose had fallen out of the window when authorities arrived) However, like his father death, there were nagging questions. For example, Quentin was found unkempt with beard stubble, a state that no one who knew Quentin could accept. (He was ultra-meticulous in his appearance) Or that the license plate of the car was found under a rock some distance away, and his wallet was gone making identification imposable. There was also a near empty bottle of liquor that was found, as if he had been drinking, when Quentin did not. There were also needle marks on his arms, when he did not do drugs.

Quentin had tried to measure up to his father’s expectations. He was one of the few top-grade Class Twelve Auditors, but did not share his father’s temperament. All he wanted to do was airplanes, and he often pleaded with his father to let him do just that. There was also an aspect of his nature, which could not be reconciled with his father’s philosophy; Quentin was a homosexual. Hubbard expected his children to live up to the family name and do nothing that would reflect badly on the church. "He thought Quentin was an embarrassment", said Laurel Sullivan, Hubbard’s former public relations officer. "And he told me that several times."

Quentin Hubbard was still alive when he was found, something happened in the hospital and he died two weeks later without regaining conciseness. His death was listed as a possible suicide.

Jeremy Perkins

Perkins was born into a Scientologist family and showed signs of mental illness from a young age. He developed clear schizophrenic symptoms, complaining of voices in his head.

In 2002 at the age of 27 the church labels him "PTS Type III" (psychotic) and stops treating him with vitamins and audits. His 54-year-old Scientologist mother prevents him from getting psychiatric help, due to their "religious beliefs".

On March 13, 2003, L. Ron Hubbard’s birthday, schizophrenia gets the best of Jeremy. After getting out of the shower he took a knife from a drawer in the kitchen and stabbed his mother 77 times, killing her. He was found "not responsible by reason of mental disease or deficit" by the court.

Noah Lottick

7 months after joining the church he was found dead. Lottick had jumped from the 10th floor window of a hotel and landed on the hood of a limousine. When police arrived, his fingers were still holding $171 in cash. Virtually the only money he hadn’t turned over to the Church of Scientology.

Joseph A. Havenith

On February 25, 1980, Havenith had been at the Fort Harrison Hotel for two months taking counseling and following a regimen of vitamins and minerals prescribed by the Scientology. A maid said he left a note on his door, room 771. The note read, "sleeping". He was not disturbed until later that day when guests noticed the carpet outside his room was soaked. They found Havenith dead in the bathtub with the water still running. An autopsy report lists his death as a "probable drowning" but notes his head was not under water. He died at the Fort Harrison Hotel in a bathtub filled with water so hot it had burned his skin off.

Ed Brewer

Brewer was involved in a car accident. Several other Sea Organization or Scientology staff members were in the car. They left him in the car to bleed to death while they went back to the Scientology organization to talk to the people in the intelligence division, because they didn’t want to create a public relations flap for the church. When they did this they failed to call for medical help. Brewer bled to death pinned in his car.

Margarit Winkelmann

Winkelmann walked fully clothed into Clearwater Bay and drowned herself after she quit taking Lithium and started taking vitamins and minerals recommended by the church.

Peter E. Frei

Frei was found floating in Dunedin Waterway in June 1988 several days before the church reported him missing from his room at the Fort Harrison Hotel.

Herbert Pfaff

For ten years after a major car accident, Herbert Pfaff suffered severe seizures that often cam in the middle of the night. In 1988 he traveled from his home in Munich Germany to Clearwater Florida to take courses from the CoS. On August 28, 1988, Pfaff’s nude body was found upside down hanging out of his bed. An autopsy determined that a seizure most likely caused his death. No anti-convulsion drugs were found in his blood stream. George Pfaff, Herbert’s brother told the St. Petersburg Times that Scientologists in Germany promised a cure for his seizures and took him off medication that had controlled them.

Karen Simon

Karen Simon died by hanging herself in London England in may of 1991, shortly after she refused to sign a Sea Organization contract. She was preparing a negative report on Scientology at the time of her death.


Editor’s Note: The information in this section was compiled from a release from the activist group Anonymous.
http://www.myspace.com/anonymousx666333/blog/366659209 (http://www.myspace.com/anonymousx666333/blog/366659209)

-Reprinted from the Stamp Out Scientology! Usergroup;
http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=667 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=667)

[Book O'Dead]

I had personal experience with Scientology. At the recruiting stage. In Los Angeles. Way back when I was a puppy with a wet nose, perk ears and a shiny coat.

I lost a friend on account of it but they didn't get me.

[eric922]

Scientology is probably one of the most destructive things to arrive on the religious scene in the past century. It is extremely controlling and extremely wealthy.

[Zostrianos]

Why hasn't this criminal cult been shut down yet?

[eric922]

Why hasn't this criminal cult been shut down yet?
They have a lot of money, though I would have thought Snow White would have been the end of them, if they survived that, I don't see them going away for a long time.

[Zostrianos]

It can't only be that. I mean, the mafia had a lot of money and eventually the authorities decided to act. They should just seize the Church's assets and kill it for good. How many more victims is it gonna take?

[MuscularTophFan]

Why hasn't this criminal cult been shut down yet?
Because of the massive influence it has on Hollywood.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Honestly, I do not respect any Scientologist, and the harm they cause just ads to this.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Because of the massive influence it has on Hollywood.

L Ron Hubbard (the creator of this crazy shit) actually openly said that if someone wanted to start a religion they had to get famous people to join their church.

[Book O'Dead]

Honestly, I do not respect any Scientologist, and the harm they cause just ads to this.

Oh, pleeeeese! Let's not exaggerate their influence or their effect!

[Comrade Samuel]

Because of the massive influence it has on Hollywood.

And I thought the illuminati would be mad at them for treading on their turf.

Scientology is obviously a complete joke to most people and the only place it matters is Hollywood, mainly so celebrities who are fadeing into obscurity can regain media attention for being completely crazy but I find it concerning that this "religion" gets as much attention as it does just because hoards of people follow the personal lives of celebrities so closely. I've heard that L Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer before starting all of this and it's interesting that more people don't look at the "fiction" part of his previous occupation and simply assume the same about his cult.

[Zostrianos]

Scientology is obviously a complete joke to most people and the only place it matters is Hollywood, mainly so celebrities who are fadeing into obscurity can regain media attention for being completely crazy but I find it concerning that this "religion" gets as much attention as it does just because hoards of people follow the personal lives of celebrities so closely. I've heard that L Ron Hubbard was a science fiction writer before starting all of this (not certan of how legitimate this is) but it's interesting that more people don't look at the "fiction" part of his previous occupation and simply assume the same about his cult.

I remember reading that he admitted in private to a friend that he made up the whole thing to make money.

[Os Cangaceiros]

It can't only be that. I mean, the mafia had a lot of money and eventually the authorities decided to act. They should just seize the Church's assets and kill it for good. How many more victims is it gonna take?

With issues like Scientology you get into the whole "freedom of religion" thing, though, and it gets more complicated legally.

And of course the mafia is still around, although it's influence is far lesser than what it once was (assuming we're talking about la Cosa Nostra, here). It was a purely criminal organization, though. Far easier to construct reasonable doubts around a supposedly legitimate legal religious organization like Scientology...

[NGNM85]

It can't only be that. I mean, the mafia had a lot of money and eventually the authorities decided to act. They should just seize the Church's assets and kill it for good. How many more victims is it gonna take?

I don't mean to be a downer, but I don't see this happening, for several reasons. Also; as an Anarchist, while I deplore their insane beliefs, and will continue to take every opportunity to expose how batshit-crazy they are; they have every right to believe it. My problem is with the unusual number of deaths associated with the cult, many of which are directly related to the cults' bizarre views about physical, and psychiatric health, the employment of child labor, RPF, which is basically Scientology jail, for cultists found guilty of some ideological transgression, as well as the policies of; 'Disconnection', whereby members leaving the cult are permanently estranged from their families, and; 'Fair Game' whereby former members, or critics of the church are subjected to extreme harassment. However; I think the thing that concerns me most is that unlike other cults, Scientology is almost considered acceptable. Quirky, weird, but mostly harmless. I can't think of any other cult that enjoys that kind of status. What people need to realize is that Scientology really is a creepy cult, like Aum Shinrikyo AKA 'Aleph', FLDS, or Aggressive Christianity, and treat it accordingly.

On a completely unrelated note; I like your kitty avatar.

[eric922]

I don't mean to be a downer, but I don't see this happening, for several reasons. Also; as an Anarchist, while I deplore their insane beliefs, and will continue to take every opportunity to expose how batshit-crazy they are; they have every right to believe it. My problem is with the unusual number of deaths associated with the cult, many of which are directly related to the cults' bizarre views about physical, and psychiatric health, the employment of child labor, RPF, which is basically Scientology jail, for cultists found guilty of some ideological transgression, as well as the policies of; 'Disconnection', whereby members leaving the cult are permanently estranged from their families, and; 'Fair Game' whereby former members, or critics of the church are subjected to extreme harassment. However; I think the thing that concerns me most is that unlike other cults, Scientology is almost considered acceptable. Quirky, weird, but mostly harmless. I can't think of any other cult that enjoys that kind of status. What people need to realize is that Scientology really is a creepy cult, like Aum Shinrikyo AKA 'Aleph', FLDS, or Aggressive Christianity, and treat it accordingly.

On a completely unrelated note; I like your kitty avatar.

None of the groups you mentioned had the wealth and power of Scientology. They are very rich and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they have ties to both parties. The People's Temple faced similar accusations by former members before they left for Jonestown, but Jim Jones would use his church as political tool. He could get thousands to the polls so politicians wouldn't touch him. I'm kind of an "amateur expert" in cults. I haven't taken any formal classes on them, but I find them fascinating and read/watch everything I can. One of my favorite to study is "Heaven's Gate." There isn't any really indepth on them, though.

[NGNM85]

None of the groups you mentioned had the wealth and power of Scientology.

That's true. They also don't have the media savvy.



They are very rich and I wouldn't be surprised at all if they have ties to both parties.

I'm skeptical. As far as I know; Scientology is largely indifferent to the political establishment. However; I'm fairly certain that they do have some pull with the city government in Clearwater FL., which is like the Scientology mecca.



The People's Temple faced similar accusations by former members before they left for Jonestown, but Jim Jones would use his church as political tool. He could get thousands to the polls so politicians wouldn't touch him. I'm kind of an "amateur expert" in cults. I haven't taken any formal classes on them, but I find them fascinating and read/watch everything I can. One of my favorite to study is "Heaven's Gate." There isn't any really indepth on them, though.

I have a similar expertise concerning serial homicide. Unfortunately; it's not a skill set that has much in the way of practical applications. I'm only mildly interested in cults, although I would like to become more knowledgeable on the subject. There's just something about Scientology that fascinates me, though. I don't know what it is.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I was wondering, could neuroscience become a target for Scientology, much like Darwinian evolution is attacked by literalist Christians?

My question is based on their opposition to psychiatry, which if I remember correctly has something to do with "Body Thetans", i.e. the souls of aliens executed by some interstellar despot some millions of years ago. Suffice to say that I do not think neuroscience will bear out such a hypothesis, which is why I think Scientology could start attacking it some day. I wouldn't be surprised if other religions also got on board the anti-neuroscience bandwagon, since what we've found so far contradicts their foundational beliefs about personhood as well, and they may come to realise that creationism is a busted flush.

As for the freedom of religion thing, I think a good litmus test would be an assessment of how the Co$ treats the practice of Scientology outside the strictures of Co$ as an institution. Surely a real religion would have no problems with people distributing its literature far and wide.

Oh wait. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trademarks_owned_by_the_Church_of_Scientol ogy_and_its_affiliates)

[Lenina Rosenweg]

There;s a story that L. Ron Hubbard and Robert Heinlein were Navy buddies at the end of the Second world war. they were both aspiring SF writers. Hubbard made a bet with Heinlein that he could become a millionaire with a few years by starting his own religion. Guess he won the bet.

For a variety of reasons the US gov't apprears reluctant to shut down dangerous cults. This is propably over fear of being seen violating someone's "freedom of religion". Religion gets more of a free ride in the US than elsewhere.

A few years ago the Scientologists were doing their "readings" or whatever in the Boston subway. They were allowed to do this for quite a while. It was obviously thinly veiled recruiting. They got several of my co-workers interested, until I explained to them what was going on. Shortly after this the socialist organization I'm in tried to sell literature in the subway. We were told to leave after 15 minutes.

Operation Clambake has been doing good work exposing amd fighting this cult, which has been very destructive cult.

http://www.xenu.net/

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Ok i personally thought that christianity,or muslims or fucking islam,were the greatest threat to human kind,but as i saw this. Im just shocked to say the leas and i have realized two things now.

-If you are joining a cult go kill your self instead.
-You must be a complete retard to even join scientology or any other religions


When Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people,if he saw what scientology is,....

[l'Enfermé]

Wasn't there a huge amount of whining when Scientology was being persecuted in Germany? Or something like that?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Ok i personally thought that christianity,or muslims or fucking islam,were the greatest threat to human kind,but as i saw this. Im just shocked to say the leas and i have realized two things now.

-If you are joining a cult go kill your self instead.

That's not helpful, because the person who's in the frame of mind to join a cult would hardly be in a frame of mind to take your advice on suicide.


-You must be a complete retard to even join scientology or any other religions

It's a mistake to automatically assume that followers of superstition are stupid. You do get smart fundies and cultists, the fact they are unable (or unwilling) to apply that inteliigence towards their beliefs notwithstanding.


When Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people,if he saw what scientology is,....

I think Marx was making a reference to superstition's tendency to ameliorate the pain of life without actually addressing the source of that pain, analogous to the (quasi-)medical use of opiates which relieves pain without actually curing anything.

[Zostrianos]

My question is based on their opposition to psychiatry, which if I remember correctly has something to do with "Body Thetans", i.e. the souls of aliens executed by some interstellar despot some millions of years ago. Suffice to say that I do not think neuroscience will bear out such a hypothesis, which is why I think Scientology could start attacking it some day. I wouldn't be surprised if other religions also got on board the anti-neuroscience bandwagon, since what we've found so far contradicts their foundational beliefs about personhood as well, and they may come to realise that creationism is a busted flush.


I think they attack psychiatry because they want to impose their own brainwashing techniques on the public. By constantly attacking it, they think maybe they can discredit it eventually, and then thousands of people will flock to them for help with their mental problems.



On a completely unrelated note; I like your kitty avatar.

Thanks, it's Henri the existential cat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiYUzYozsAQ) :cool:

[Lynx]

Henri is, in his own special way, part of the cult of kitteh :)

[NGNM85]

I was wondering, could neuroscience become a target for Scientology, much like Darwinian evolution is attacked by literalist Christians?

The reason why Scientologists loathe psychiatry, and they do, pathologically, (There is even a Scientology documentary; Psychiatry: An Industry of death, which places sole blame for the holocaust, among other things, on psychiatry.) is because of Hubbard's rejection by the psychiatric establishment. It all started with Dianetics, which he proclaimed to be; 'A new science of the mind.' Of course; as his only professional experience, at that time, was writing terrible science fiction, (Read Battlefield Earth; it's dogshit.) and a short, undistinguished stint in the U.S. Navy, he was supremely unqualified to pursue such an undertaking. Predictably; Dianetics was eviscerated by the psychiatric establishment, which led to Hubbard's creation of the Scientology religion, because religious claims aren't subjected to the same standards of proof. (Something I regard as a gross injustice.) Although; the blind religious devotion, and tax-exempt status (Which I, also, generally, oppose.) are nice bonuses, as well. Thus; the ever-petty-and-vindictive Hubbard was left with a deep resentment of psychiatry, which he passed on to his followers. It's really too bad; because if anybody needs psychotherapy it's the fucking Scientologists. On a more serious note; this policy has led to several deaths, as I've previously mentioned, including the late Lisa Macpherson, and Ellie Perkins.

Also; I'm not sure if you're aware, I mentioned it, earlier, in passing, but Scientology views homosexuality as a perversion, in fact, they consider it to be one of the worst forms of deviance. They also claim to be able to cure this ‘condition.’ (Through extensive ‘auditing’ and Scientology ‘courses’, naturally.) This has led to several former Scientologists attempting suicide, and was probably the primary factor in the death of Hubbards’ son, Quentin. The CoS has also thrown it’s support behind anti-gay legislation, such as California’s Prop. 8.


My question is based on their opposition to psychiatry, which if I remember correctly has something to do with "Body Thetans", i.e. the souls of aliens executed by some interstellar despot some millions of years ago.

See above.

You’re referring to the Scientology creation myth, or, thir equivalent, alternately referred to as the “Space Opera’, or; ‘The Wall of Fire.’ It’s technical name is; OT: III”, which is a particularly advanced level of Scientology, in fact, it costs something like $110,000.00 (Not including the time it takes to complete all the courses, assuming one doesn’t need to repeat any of them, and other associated costs. (You’re welcome.) You can find the complete text in my Stamp Out Scientology! UserGroup. Although; I should, perhaps, warn you that, according to LRH, the wisdom of OT:III is so profound that anyone who has not prepared for it with rigorous mental training risks severe illness, including pnumonia, even death. Proceed at your own risk.

Presuming any of you are brave enough to keep reading, here goes;

Approximately 75 million years ago, the ‘Galactic Confederacy’ whose fashions were remarkably similar to that of Eaqrth, in the 1950’s, was suffering from severe overpopulation. To deal with this crisis, the ‘supreme rulah’ of the Confederacy; ‘Xenu’, mobilized a large group of his subjects under the premises of a tax audit. These unsuspecting extraterrestrials were then, rudely, tranquilized, and placed aboard spaceships, which, incidentally; bore a remarkable resemblance to the DC-8 military aircraft, and were flown to primordial Earth, which was known as; ‘Teegeeack.’ These poor, unconscious aliens were placed around volcanoes, into which the spacecraft dropped hydrogen bombs, killing all of the poor creatures. This act of genocide released the alien spirits, called; ‘Thetans’, from their corporeal bodies. Alas; even in death, these creatures were condemned, for Xenu had constructed an ‘electromagnetic ribbon’ trapping the Thetans on Earth! Then; these poor dead, alien ghosts were subjected to 36 hours of propaganda films, which are the primary source of all of our ideas about god, the afterlife, and all religions, except Scientology. These, aforementioned, poor, brainwashed alien ghosts eventually infected primitive man, and havee been responsible for all of mankinds’ neurosis, and physical illness, ever since. The only way to resolve this condition, is, of course, through Scientology.


Suffice to say that I do not think neuroscience will bear out such a hypothesis,

I don’t think any science will bear out the hypothesis, not in the least because science and religion are fundamentally antithetical, and the presuppositions of Scientology tend to range between obviously wrong, and highly suspect.


which is why I think Scientology could start attacking it some day. I wouldn't be surprised if other religions also got on board the anti-neuroscience bandwagon, since what we've found so far contradicts their foundational beliefs about personhood as well, and they may come to realise that creationism is a busted flush.

That’d be nice, but I’m much less optimistic. The human mind appears to have a frightening capacity for tolerating cognitive dissonance. It appears that, while they are logically incompatible, that scientific education, even advanced scientific education, can comfortably coexist, in the human psyche, alongside religious beliefs, even religious fundamentalism. For example; Francis Collins, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden, most of the leadership caste of Aum Shinrikyo, etc., etc.


As for the freedom of religion thing, I think a good litmus test would be an assessment of how the Co$ treats the practice of Scientology outside the strictures of Co$ as an institution. Surely a real religion would have no problems with people distributing its literature far and wide.


Oh wait. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trademarks_owned_by_the_Church_of_Scientol ogy_and_its_affiliates)

Yeah, the secrecy is an interesting thing. I can’t think of any other faith that exerts so much effort to conceal it’s beliefs. I also at a loss to think of another faith where religious advancement is, almost exclusively, predicated on ones’ financial contributions.

[NGNM85]

Thanks, it's Henri the existential cat (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IiYUzYozsAQ) :cool:

Those videos are hilarous. Plus, he's totally adorable. :D

[eric922]

On the topic of religious groups that hide beliefs. The LDS are pretty notorious for that. They pretend to have mostly normal Christian beliefs until you convert and then they explain about their history of polygamy, celestial marriage, "man becoming God", etc. As for financial support being necessary, well the highest afterlife you can achieve is Godhood in the Celestial Kingdom, but you have to have gone through Temple Ceremonies to be allowed in that kingdom. To get into the Temple you have to have shown you've tithed 10% of you income. They even sometimes require you to bring tax records to prove it. Not quite as bad as Scientology, but still not great.

[Book O'Dead]

Ok i personally thought that christianity,or muslims or fucking islam,were the greatest threat to human kind,but as i saw this. Im just shocked to say the leas and i have realized two things now.
-If you are joining a cult go kill your self instead.
-You must be a complete retard to even join scientology or any other religions
When Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people,if he saw what scientology is,....

I think that Marx might have been talking about something else when he spoke of religion as the opiate of the masses.

Scientology is nothing like opium, even if its ultimate effect is the same: dead brain cells.

No, Scientology is more like crystal meth; it makes you go really, really fast for a while then everything comes to a sudden dead stop. Then you're either disappointed or embarrassed.

Look at Tom Cruise, for example; He crashed, and in a very public way.

[NGNM85]

Look at Tom Cruise, for example; He crashed, and in a very public way.

A lot of people think he's a joke, especially after his disturbing confrontation with Matt Lauer, but he's still incredibly popular.

[Book O'Dead]

A lot of people think he's a joke, especially after his disturbing confrontation with Matt Lauer, but he's still incredibly popular.

And i don't begrudge Tom Cruise his enormous success. After all, he is a superlative talent and I have been greatly entertained with his movies.

But he did embarrass himself thanks to Scientology and his own hubris.

[NGNM85]

And i don't begrudge Tom Cruise his enormous success. After all, he is a superlative talent and I have been greatly entertained with his movies.

Oh, absolutely. I love Interview With the Vampire, The Firm, Rain Man, A Few Good Men, Jerry Maguire, Top Gun, etc.


But he did embarrass himself thanks to Scientology and his own hubris.

However; it doesn't seem to have dented his popularity that much. The most unfortunate part is that, as the public face of Scientology, this legitimizes the cult.

[Zostrianos]

Eyes wide Shut and Interview with the Vampire are among my all time favourite movies.

[eric922]

I, personally, am not a huge Cruise fan, but he is a good actor. I loved Last Samurai. I'm a huge fan of the Samurai and Japaneses history so that helped, but I still think he did a good job in the role.

[Book O'Dead]

L. Ron Hubbard's great grandson sez 'Scientology sucks!'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/18/jamie-dewolf-l-ron-hubbard_n_1683062.html

[l'Enfermé]

Eyes wide Shut and Interview with the Vampire are among my all time favourite movies.
Kubrick's only bad movie is one of your all time favorites? What is this madness!?

[Book O'Dead]

Kubrick's only bad movie is one of your all time favorites? What is this madness!?

I strongly disagree. And not because I think Eyes Wide Shut is the best of his films either.

The worst movie Kubrick ever made was never made.

Every one of his movies brings with it a different but equally important facet of the director's mind and personality. That's what made him an auteur (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auteur_theory).


With the exception of Spartacus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Kubrick#Spartacus_.281960.29), which wasn't really his to begin with, you can compare his movies to each other only in terms of plot content, meaning and technique but not in terms of relative quality.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Before I continue, I must ask: why do you use COLOR and FONT tags? Black and Verdana are the defaults (at least on my end) and it's a pain to have to snip out the PHPcode.


The reason why Scientologists loathe psychiatry, and they do, pathologically, (There is even a Scientology documentary; Psychiatry: An Industry of death, which places sole blame for the holocaust, among other things, on psychiatry.) is because of Hubbard's rejection by the psychiatric establishment. It all started with Dianetics, which he proclaimed to be; 'A new science of the mind.' Of course; as his only professional experience, at that time, was writing terrible science fiction, (Read Battlefield Earth; it's dogshit.) and a short, undistinguished stint in the U.S. Navy, he was supremely unqualified to pursue such an undertaking. Predictably; Dianetics was eviscerated by the psychiatric establishment, which led to Hubbard's creation of the Scientology religion, because religious claims aren't subjected to the same standards of proof. (Something I regard as a gross injustice.) Although; the blind religious devotion, and tax-exempt status (Which I, also, generally, oppose.) are nice bonuses, as well. Thus; the ever-petty-and-vindictive Hubbard was left with a deep resentment of psychiatry, which he passed on to his followers. It's really too bad; because if anybody needs psychotherapy it's the fucking Scientologists. On a more serious note; this policy has led to several deaths, as I've previously mentioned, including the late Lisa Macpherson, and Ellie Perkins.

With the death of it's founder, don't you think that the Co$ will come to find new targets?


Also; I'm not sure if you're aware, I mentioned it, earlier, in passing, but Scientology views homosexuality as a perversion, in fact, they consider it to be one of the worst forms of deviance. They also claim to be able to cure this ‘condition.’ (Through extensive ‘auditing’ and Scientology ‘courses’, naturally.) This has led to several former Scientologists attempting suicide, and was probably the primary factor in the death of Hubbards’ son, Quentin. The CoS has also thrown it’s support behind anti-gay legislation, such as California’s Prop. 8.

Why a "perversion"?


See above.

You’re referring to the Scientology creation myth, or, thir equivalent, alternately referred to as the “Space Opera’, or; ‘The Wall of Fire.’ It’s technical name is; OT: III”, which is a particularly advanced level of Scientology, in fact, it costs something like $110,000.00 (Not including the time it takes to complete all the courses, assuming one doesn’t need to repeat any of them, and other associated costs. (You’re welcome.) You can find the complete text in my Stamp Out Scientology! UserGroup. Although; I should, perhaps, warn you that, according to LRH, the wisdom of OT:III is so profound that anyone who has not prepared for it with rigorous mental training risks severe illness, including pnumonia, even death. Proceed at your own risk.

Presuming any of you are brave enough to keep reading, here goes;

Approximately 75 million years ago, the ‘Galactic Confederacy’ whose fashions were remarkably similar to that of Eaqrth, in the 1950’s, was suffering from severe overpopulation. To deal with this crisis, the ‘supreme rulah’ of the Confederacy; ‘Xenu’, mobilized a large group of his subjects under the premises of a tax audit. These unsuspecting extraterrestrials were then, rudely, tranquilized, and placed aboard spaceships, which, incidentally; bore a remarkable resemblance to the DC-8 military aircraft, and were flown to primordial Earth, which was known as; ‘Teegeeack.’ These poor, unconscious aliens were placed around volcanoes, into which the spacecraft dropped hydrogen bombs, killing all of the poor creatures. This act of genocide released the alien spirits, called; ‘Thetans’, from their corporeal bodies. Alas; even in death, these creatures were condemned, for Xenu had constructed an ‘electromagnetic ribbon’ trapping the Thetans on Earth! Then; these poor dead, alien ghosts were subjected to 36 hours of propaganda films, which are the primary source of all of our ideas about god, the afterlife, and all religions, except Scientology. These, aforementioned, poor, brainwashed alien ghosts eventually infected primitive man, and havee been responsible for all of mankinds’ neurosis, and physical illness, ever since. The only way to resolve this condition, is, of course, through Scientology.

And if neuroscience makes findings that seriously contradict this story? I think it's not much of a target at the moment because we don't have a working model of human consciousness, plus the lack of any obvious applications for the field (unlike evolutionary biology). But what if that were to change?


I don’t think any science will bear out the hypothesis, not in the least because science and religion are fundamentally antithetical, and the presuppositions of Scientology tend to range between obviously wrong, and highly suspect.

Isn't that a more elaborate version of what I just said?


That’d be nice, but I’m much less optimistic. The human mind appears to have a frightening capacity for tolerating cognitive dissonance. It appears that, while they are logically incompatible, that scientific education, even advanced scientific education, can comfortably coexist, in the human psyche, alongside religious beliefs, even religious fundamentalism. For example; Francis Collins, Ayman al-Zawahiri, Osama bin Laden, most of the leadership caste of Aum Shinrikyo, etc., etc.

I think those people are exceptional. If you look at things on a social level, you'll find that religiosity and education are inversely correlated. If I remember correctly, other factors that can influence the religiosity of a society include (but I would imagine are not necessarily limited to) distribution of wealth, social equality, the relation of religious institutions to government structures, and so on.


Yeah, the secrecy is an interesting thing. I can’t think of any other faith that exerts so much effort to conceal it’s beliefs. I also at a loss to think of another faith where religious advancement is, almost exclusively, predicated on ones’ financial contributions.

I was also thinking of the behaviour of the Co$ towards Free Zones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_%28Scientology%29), which I imagine they don't like.

[NGNM85]

Before I continue, I must ask: why do you use COLOR and FONT tags? Black and Verdana are the defaults (at least on my end) and it's a pain to have to snip out the PHPcode.

I don't, at least, not intentionally. As you are well aware, I have a tendency to write long posts, after several extremely unpleasant experiences where I ended up losing some extremely long posts, which took a long time to compose, due to accidents, or computer malfunctions, I began writing my posts, or, at least, the long ones, in a word processor, and then copy and pasting it when I'm done. This is what causes the phenomenon you describe. However; most of the time, it seems to work just fine.


With the death of it's founder, don't you think that the Co$ will come to find new targets?

Hubbards' been dead for 25 years. The present supreme monarch of the CoS is David Miscavige, who took over after LRH died.


Why a "perversion"?

Hubbard was a homophobe. However; in all fairness, he seems to be echoing the opinion of many prominent psychologists, at the time, and cited them, as evidence.

For more on Scientology and homosexuality;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_topics_and_Scientology



And if neuroscience makes findings that seriously contradict this story? I think it's not much of a target at the moment because we don't have a working model of human consciousness, plus the lack of any obvious applications for the field (unlike evolutionary biology). But what if that were to change?

Isn't that a more elaborate version of what I just said?

No. At least; not exactly. you seem to be suggesting that neuroscience, etc., are not sufficiently advanced to disregard most, or all, of the truth claims of Scientology. I disagree.


I think those people are exceptional. If you look at things on a social level, you'll find that religiosity and education are inversely correlated. If I remember correctly, other factors that can influence the religiosity of a society include (but I would imagine are not necessarily limited to) distribution of wealth, social equality, the relation of religious institutions to government structures, and so on.

Generally, they are inversely correlated. However; it's not a magic bullet. Aum Shinrikyo was dubbed; 'a religion of the elite' because a disproportionate amount of the cultists came from Japan's most prestigious universities. Surveys seem to suggest that support for Jihad, in the Middle East, appears to correlates with greater education. Of course, as you say, there are also significant cultural, and political factors at play. My point is simply that we should not conclude that an increase in scientific education will automatically coincide with a drop in religious ideation, or, even fanatical religious ideation. It's not a magic bullet.


I was also thinking of the behaviour of the Co$ towards Free Zones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Zone_%28Scientology%29), which I imagine they don't like.

Oh, definitely. They absolutely despise it, A; because they don't control it, and B; because they're not making any money off of it.

[MarxSchmarx]

Like all religions, we must apply a self-consciously materialist analysis to scientology.

Scientology, somewhat like Islam and Christianity, must be seen as tool to divide the working class by the ruling class. However, what is different is that it is the animosity scientology generates, rather than its ecclesiastic merit, that allows it to be employed as a weapon against workers.

Scientology has come to serve as a convenient target far greater than its social relevance. It is easy to ridicule the core beliefs of scientology - what main stream religions fail to mention are that their own creeds are at least as cultish and absurd as anything scientology professes.

But by singling out scientology, the rulingclass succeeds in shifting the attention of workers on an inconsequential fad, as silly as spiritualism and seances were in the 1890s. These are convenient distractions against the fact that the likes of Tom Cruise still earns obscenely more than the people who clean his house.

Moreover, scientology is a distinct religion of the rich, with its silly predestinationsim and all. However, it should be pointed out that a lot neoliberal doctrines are perhaps just as absurd;

all of this does not absolve scientology of its nonsense, but it forces ups tot think of the socio-historical factors that drive present days patterns of voting behavior in stable liberal democracies.

[NGNM85]

Before I continue, I must ask: why do you use COLOR and FONT tags? Black and Verdana are the defaults (at least on my end) and it's a pain to have to snip out the PHPcode.

Postscript; I just lost an enormous post because it took too long to type, and the page had to reload. This is absolutely infuriating, and intolerable. Unless you, or someone else, can come up with another solution, and I'm all-fucking-ears, I'm going to go back to typing them in word processor, at least then I won't waste 45 minutes composing a post only to have it lost forever in cyberspace. Furthermore; barring any such suggestion, I will, henceforth, ignore this complaint. It's not worth the aggravation.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Postscript; I just lost an enormous post because it took too long to type, and the page had to reload. This is absolutely infuriating, and intolerable. Unless you, or someone else, can come up with another solution, and I'm all-fucking-ears, I'm going to go back to typing them in word processor, at least then I won't waste 45 minutes composing a post only to have it lost forever in cyberspace. Furthermore; barring any such suggestion, I will, henceforth, ignore this complaint. It's not worth the aggravation.

I'm sorry. Why don't you try CTRL C + CTRL V into Notepad (quicker to load and simpler than Word) before attempting to post? That way if it does fuck up then you can just paste it in again from the Notepad window. That's the method I use for really long posts, and since Notepad is a plain text editor then you won't get any extraneous crap when copy-pasting.

Why does the page need to reload? Does your login expire or something like that?

[NGNM85]

I'm sorry. Why don't you try CTRL C + CTRL V into Notepad (quicker to load and simpler than Word) before attempting to post? That way if it does fuck up then you can just paste it in again from the Notepad window. That's the method I use for really long posts, and since Notepad is a plain text editor then you won't get any extraneous crap when copy-pasting.

I must admit I sort of blew my stack back there. It had just happened and, obviously, I was fairly incensed. To use a video-game analogy; it was like one of those; 'Throw the controller across the room' kind of moments.

Yeah, Tjis suggested that. I think I'll do that, in the future.


Why does the page need to reload? Does your login expire or something like that?

There's several situations which have caused this to happen, in the past, but that's what happened, in this case, yeah.