Hexen
15th July 2012, 22:26
Recently I've been debating with people on this thread (http://www.shadownessence.net/forum/topic/35292-kotemiddle-kingdomasian-stereotypes/page__pid__497535#entry497535) which we were talking about stereotypes/religion/etc which I made a pretty good arguments (http://www.shadownessence.net/forum/topic/35292-kotemiddle-kingdomasian-stereotypes/page__view__findpost__p__504618) but then I started analyzing how Christianity is deeply embedded in western society which I further explained that was the reason why I deeply despised Christianity but unfortunately though it seems that I was apparently banned or suspended from the forum because they said I was being 'intolerant'.
Anyway here's how it started from here (http://www.shadownessence.net/forum/topic/35292-kotemiddle-kingdomasian-stereotypes/page__view__findpost__p__504627).
Anyway here is some responses I got:
Really? Because I could count more technological innoviations that came under captialism than you could from communism. The space program under captilism also got further than the one under communism. Also this (my posts are in brown):
The bold part is exactly my point and where the main root of the problem lies. It's simply a product of a capitalist society that views the world via it's lens instead of putting everyone elses shoes.
No, it's the product of a western company with western writers making a product for a western audience. What you're asking for, a system that provides viewpoints for every single different religion and belief would lead to books that were 20,000 pages long and had absolutely no game content, and would be notoriously un-fun to play since the storyteller would *Still* need to re-write everything to decide what is 'true' in his universe.
Dear lord do you go to the Feng Shui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Shui_%28role-playing_game%29) boards and scream at them half this loud? Please tell me you do. Otherwise you've got a huge double standard going.
Quote
Also the you missed the point that the Martial Arts on the character sheet actually marginizes Asians into a sterotypical hat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats) group which is downright offensive especially for Asians for that matter. In the end it's racist straightfoward.
NO IT DOES NOT.
I have asian friends, they think the concept that all asians know kung fu is as laughable as the belief that all Americans are boxers or all Jamaicans know Caeporea.
Quote
Also as for Christianity once again the main reason it was chosen as it's main framework is because the west is deeply embedded/rooted in christianity which you can see it everywhere how it manipulates us and we don't even know it even when we don't go to church every sunday.
No, we know it, the scientific community is aware of it, we just deal with it and move on. But sure, let's address your point.
1.We use it because there are 4800 years worth of record keeping that use the BC/AD naming system, some texts use BCE and CE instead, but the idea that for a society to be 'truly secular' they need to change the calendar of the society that came before is laughable. That isn't being 'secular', that's being spiteful, that's saying 'we're better than you so we aren't going to use your shit anymore even though it's still completely functional'.
And please, blore, tell me, *what* alternative calendar system would you suggest we use, does one exist?
2.Because the population of the united states is primarily christian, most of the workforce would be taking these holidays off anyway, institutionalizing them also commercialized them, most people don't even celebrate these holidays in the 'True Christian' way, they just see them as 'cheap chocolate' and 'yay presents' day.
I have quite a few muslim co-workers, and they've successfully had the HR department move some of their holidays around so that they work on Easter/Christmas, but have their own holidays off.
Or they just use PTO to take their holidays off and enjoy the fact that the US government gives them a free day off that the customer can't complain about (like sane people do).
3.Seriously?
I can *maybe* see where you're coming from with the Marriage thing, even though it too has been completely secularized. Seeing as how of the 5 weddings I've been to in the past year, 3 have been preceded over by either neutral justices of the peace of universal life church ministers.
But what the hell is your problem with funerals? Are you seriously mad that we no-longer put people on biers and set them on fire? Burying them underground is not a christian thing. And the reason most funerals are held in christian churches is because most people who die are still christian, even if they're non practicing, and people find comfort in religion as they get closer to death. You might as well be getting angry at human nature.
Quote
4. Our society is still sexist believe or not and matter infact there is still a double standard about sexuality (Man can have sex everything they want to but Women doing the same are looked down) and also "Hetronormality" which is a serious problem in western society.
Both men and women can have sex with pretty much anyone they want in my understanding and practice, at least up until the point that they're married. Then they're both massive bastards for sleeping around. And you are aware that our elected president just put gay rights on his platform right?
5.I guess you are getting angry at human nature. Wow, Okay. No, you aren't bringing your communism argument into this, Don't even try. And I'd like to request that no-one take this bait.k
I have no idea what you mean by the 'human nature argument', and I really don't want to know because I'm fairly certain *you* don't even know and you're just parroting someone else.
Quote
6. Even our own vocabulary is Christian influenced (for example words like "God Damn it", "Hell", even "Good").
And now you're getting angry at the english language? Good Lord (see what i did there?) you have issues.
Well here
I give you an alternative.
Lojban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban)
I expect you to use this exclusively in your communications from now on.
Quote
7. Like I mentioned before that the west never questions the legimtacy of Christinaity, It also has "Good vs Evil" plots as well (which is actually the main reason why Aliens in science fiction films are portrayed as complete monsters in most Alien Invansion films instead of them having politics and factions like actual humans do).
Most aliens in films are treated as completely *unknowable*, not monsters. A lack of a common communication method and frame of reference are often the deciders.
We fear that which we don't understand, and conceivably that goes for the 'aliens' in this case too. They might not even recognize us as sentient according to their understanding of it, and thus see wiping us out as no more than culling cattle or destroying pests.
Also 'big scary monster is defeated by humanity coming together as one' makes for a good popcorn movie.
If you want to take a look at alien cultures and politics there's Men In Black, Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate, Green Lantern, the list goes on.
Quote
8. Our society still panics about the "Coming Apocalpyse" hence all the 2012 doomsday fears despite otherwise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yao9JgQrklM).
So you're mad that people have 2012 Doomsday fears even though those are based entirely on a MAYAN CALENDAR and you are blaming Christians for this!?
That link of yours (Which still annoys me, Make your own arguments, don't let other people do it for you) has a flaw of it's own. The belief that, even if Christians believe that the Bible is inerrant, because of their One True God. The Mayan Calendar is inerrant because they also have a God, and *that* god is inerrant.
No, the idea that their God is inerrant also implies that their god is the only one that matters and therefore the Mayan Calendar was thought up entirely by people who *thought* they were talking to their god but really weren't, so the calendar isn't true.
The people who are spouting doomsday fears are idiots or are profiting off the fear in some way, and most sane people don't believe the world is going to blow up in 3 months.
*Quote
You see this is actually reason why I deeply depise Christianity because it influences our society without even knowing it. If were truly were living a secular society, then none of those what I listed would be present.
I should report you for being intolerant of other peoples beliefs, I really should. What do my beliefs have to do with your ability to enjoy reading the forms?
Quote
So my only solution is that they should included everyone's lens as well not just western lens which would solved the entire problem.
And been completely unreadable and unprofitable to produce so it would have never been made.
http://www.shadownessence.net/forum/public/style_images/Brave32/snapback.png (http://www.shadownessence.net/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=504628)
Quote
However and realistically being a Marxist myself, religion is just a sigh of the oppressed worker hence opiate of the masses that will gradually fade away and becomes meangingless once society shifts into socialism i.e. the the means of production falls under to workers control (Dictatorship of the Prolertariat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat) for what it actually means) and then finally communism which is society in it's final state when it reaches full Egalitarianism.
The point being that if there's actuallly Aliens out there, I seriously doubt there is going to be a galactic spanding imperialist empire but rather the Aliens would have reached communism and they don't want to bother with us because to them we're still in our capitalist stages. Especially for what's bolded above which is actually one of the reasons why they won't come to Earth since they themselves experianced the same history with their own species and they might possibly look at religion as a outdated thing of the past to them.
The punch line is that Space travel is impossible under capitalism which is clearly shown now because of stifling innoivation (while in communism, innovation will advance and take us to the stars much faster) mainly due to the concept of property hence the existance of copyrights, patents, etc.
You're comitting several logical fallacies here.
1: Communism is the one, true, only, correct means of existance.
2: All aliens are Communist and also believe this.
3: All aliens are communist because they underwent a development cycle EXACTLY THE SAME AS OURS (Who's humanocentrist now?)
4: Aliens achieved this state because being communist is the only way that space flight will be achieved.
5: Aliens are around and avoid us because we still believe in silly things like religion.
The only way that this argument makes any sense is presupposing it on the idea that you and only you are correct about communism being the one true way of things.
Like shaoken said, the real advancements in spaceflight were done by the americans, and now we've privitized space flight.
Also: Do you make long bulleted arguments because that makes it impossible for someone to respond to you point by point without breaking the quote engine?
*note: this was the post that got me banned or suspended from the forum
Any response to this?
Anyway here's how it started from here (http://www.shadownessence.net/forum/topic/35292-kotemiddle-kingdomasian-stereotypes/page__view__findpost__p__504627).
Anyway here is some responses I got:
Really? Because I could count more technological innoviations that came under captialism than you could from communism. The space program under captilism also got further than the one under communism. Also this (my posts are in brown):
The bold part is exactly my point and where the main root of the problem lies. It's simply a product of a capitalist society that views the world via it's lens instead of putting everyone elses shoes.
No, it's the product of a western company with western writers making a product for a western audience. What you're asking for, a system that provides viewpoints for every single different religion and belief would lead to books that were 20,000 pages long and had absolutely no game content, and would be notoriously un-fun to play since the storyteller would *Still* need to re-write everything to decide what is 'true' in his universe.
Dear lord do you go to the Feng Shui (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feng_Shui_%28role-playing_game%29) boards and scream at them half this loud? Please tell me you do. Otherwise you've got a huge double standard going.
Quote
Also the you missed the point that the Martial Arts on the character sheet actually marginizes Asians into a sterotypical hat (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats) group which is downright offensive especially for Asians for that matter. In the end it's racist straightfoward.
NO IT DOES NOT.
I have asian friends, they think the concept that all asians know kung fu is as laughable as the belief that all Americans are boxers or all Jamaicans know Caeporea.
Quote
Also as for Christianity once again the main reason it was chosen as it's main framework is because the west is deeply embedded/rooted in christianity which you can see it everywhere how it manipulates us and we don't even know it even when we don't go to church every sunday.
No, we know it, the scientific community is aware of it, we just deal with it and move on. But sure, let's address your point.
1.We use it because there are 4800 years worth of record keeping that use the BC/AD naming system, some texts use BCE and CE instead, but the idea that for a society to be 'truly secular' they need to change the calendar of the society that came before is laughable. That isn't being 'secular', that's being spiteful, that's saying 'we're better than you so we aren't going to use your shit anymore even though it's still completely functional'.
And please, blore, tell me, *what* alternative calendar system would you suggest we use, does one exist?
2.Because the population of the united states is primarily christian, most of the workforce would be taking these holidays off anyway, institutionalizing them also commercialized them, most people don't even celebrate these holidays in the 'True Christian' way, they just see them as 'cheap chocolate' and 'yay presents' day.
I have quite a few muslim co-workers, and they've successfully had the HR department move some of their holidays around so that they work on Easter/Christmas, but have their own holidays off.
Or they just use PTO to take their holidays off and enjoy the fact that the US government gives them a free day off that the customer can't complain about (like sane people do).
3.Seriously?
I can *maybe* see where you're coming from with the Marriage thing, even though it too has been completely secularized. Seeing as how of the 5 weddings I've been to in the past year, 3 have been preceded over by either neutral justices of the peace of universal life church ministers.
But what the hell is your problem with funerals? Are you seriously mad that we no-longer put people on biers and set them on fire? Burying them underground is not a christian thing. And the reason most funerals are held in christian churches is because most people who die are still christian, even if they're non practicing, and people find comfort in religion as they get closer to death. You might as well be getting angry at human nature.
Quote
4. Our society is still sexist believe or not and matter infact there is still a double standard about sexuality (Man can have sex everything they want to but Women doing the same are looked down) and also "Hetronormality" which is a serious problem in western society.
Both men and women can have sex with pretty much anyone they want in my understanding and practice, at least up until the point that they're married. Then they're both massive bastards for sleeping around. And you are aware that our elected president just put gay rights on his platform right?
5.I guess you are getting angry at human nature. Wow, Okay. No, you aren't bringing your communism argument into this, Don't even try. And I'd like to request that no-one take this bait.k
I have no idea what you mean by the 'human nature argument', and I really don't want to know because I'm fairly certain *you* don't even know and you're just parroting someone else.
Quote
6. Even our own vocabulary is Christian influenced (for example words like "God Damn it", "Hell", even "Good").
And now you're getting angry at the english language? Good Lord (see what i did there?) you have issues.
Well here
I give you an alternative.
Lojban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban)
I expect you to use this exclusively in your communications from now on.
Quote
7. Like I mentioned before that the west never questions the legimtacy of Christinaity, It also has "Good vs Evil" plots as well (which is actually the main reason why Aliens in science fiction films are portrayed as complete monsters in most Alien Invansion films instead of them having politics and factions like actual humans do).
Most aliens in films are treated as completely *unknowable*, not monsters. A lack of a common communication method and frame of reference are often the deciders.
We fear that which we don't understand, and conceivably that goes for the 'aliens' in this case too. They might not even recognize us as sentient according to their understanding of it, and thus see wiping us out as no more than culling cattle or destroying pests.
Also 'big scary monster is defeated by humanity coming together as one' makes for a good popcorn movie.
If you want to take a look at alien cultures and politics there's Men In Black, Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate, Green Lantern, the list goes on.
Quote
8. Our society still panics about the "Coming Apocalpyse" hence all the 2012 doomsday fears despite otherwise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yao9JgQrklM).
So you're mad that people have 2012 Doomsday fears even though those are based entirely on a MAYAN CALENDAR and you are blaming Christians for this!?
That link of yours (Which still annoys me, Make your own arguments, don't let other people do it for you) has a flaw of it's own. The belief that, even if Christians believe that the Bible is inerrant, because of their One True God. The Mayan Calendar is inerrant because they also have a God, and *that* god is inerrant.
No, the idea that their God is inerrant also implies that their god is the only one that matters and therefore the Mayan Calendar was thought up entirely by people who *thought* they were talking to their god but really weren't, so the calendar isn't true.
The people who are spouting doomsday fears are idiots or are profiting off the fear in some way, and most sane people don't believe the world is going to blow up in 3 months.
*Quote
You see this is actually reason why I deeply depise Christianity because it influences our society without even knowing it. If were truly were living a secular society, then none of those what I listed would be present.
I should report you for being intolerant of other peoples beliefs, I really should. What do my beliefs have to do with your ability to enjoy reading the forms?
Quote
So my only solution is that they should included everyone's lens as well not just western lens which would solved the entire problem.
And been completely unreadable and unprofitable to produce so it would have never been made.
http://www.shadownessence.net/forum/public/style_images/Brave32/snapback.png (http://www.shadownessence.net/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums§ion=findpost&pid=504628)
Quote
However and realistically being a Marxist myself, religion is just a sigh of the oppressed worker hence opiate of the masses that will gradually fade away and becomes meangingless once society shifts into socialism i.e. the the means of production falls under to workers control (Dictatorship of the Prolertariat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat) for what it actually means) and then finally communism which is society in it's final state when it reaches full Egalitarianism.
The point being that if there's actuallly Aliens out there, I seriously doubt there is going to be a galactic spanding imperialist empire but rather the Aliens would have reached communism and they don't want to bother with us because to them we're still in our capitalist stages. Especially for what's bolded above which is actually one of the reasons why they won't come to Earth since they themselves experianced the same history with their own species and they might possibly look at religion as a outdated thing of the past to them.
The punch line is that Space travel is impossible under capitalism which is clearly shown now because of stifling innoivation (while in communism, innovation will advance and take us to the stars much faster) mainly due to the concept of property hence the existance of copyrights, patents, etc.
You're comitting several logical fallacies here.
1: Communism is the one, true, only, correct means of existance.
2: All aliens are Communist and also believe this.
3: All aliens are communist because they underwent a development cycle EXACTLY THE SAME AS OURS (Who's humanocentrist now?)
4: Aliens achieved this state because being communist is the only way that space flight will be achieved.
5: Aliens are around and avoid us because we still believe in silly things like religion.
The only way that this argument makes any sense is presupposing it on the idea that you and only you are correct about communism being the one true way of things.
Like shaoken said, the real advancements in spaceflight were done by the americans, and now we've privitized space flight.
Also: Do you make long bulleted arguments because that makes it impossible for someone to respond to you point by point without breaking the quote engine?
*note: this was the post that got me banned or suspended from the forum
Any response to this?