WTC attacked and destroyed!

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Since I joined up here, I've been wracking my brain trying to understand how some of you smarter folks (the rest are just too immature to even comprehend) think, and have tried to comprehend some of your logic. I must even admit I've learned a little in my time here.

But I simply must ask something I've been pondering from seeing so many "revolutionary" slogans in your signatures.

My question is:

What did you all think about the 9/11 attacks on the WTC? How did you feel? Did some of you rejoice? (Be honest). What went through your thought processes seeing those two planes actually slam into both towers, knowing all those innocent people just got incinerated? Seeing those people jump out of windows? Knowing all those firemen were crushed in the collapse? Did you think we deserved it? Did you actually think to yourself "finally we got what we deserved"?

The reason I ask is because you all speak about revolution and violence and effecting change through such means. So one would speculate that this would fit right into your idea of effecting change through violence.

Any feedback on this?

[Hampton]

nnbv:

[hazard]

you dont honestly belive thats what any, well, many of us thought?

I myself was merely socialist in my politics and din't truly understand the political significance in this event. it would take a really twisted commie/socialist to find any value in such terrorist actions, especially at the onset. of course, as monthes turn into years and the horror of the tragedy begins to fade, opinions change.

as far as I can see, america, like every other world empire, is simply set to collapse in time. like rome, which America and every republic models itself after, they are suseptible to new styles of warfare based up[on their weaknesses. this is simply an example of history repeating itself. it was clearly an historical evenbt for history buffs who see history as it works in cycles.

communism is truly about ending this cycle of history. whether you codemn any communists who find value in this tragedy is up to you. I can see value, though I still cringe at the sounds and sights of this day.

unfortunately, despite all attempts to predict and prevent this from happening, nothing could be done. the future will see whether or not america is to fall victim to the zealousness of the "suicide attack" in conjunction with their own invention "guerrilla war" or if they can overcome their own zeal for "high technology" over sound military tactics.

between vietnam, korea, war of 1812, and now iraq, the US has a rather crappy war record. besides WW1 and WW2, which they sat out until the VERY LAST POSSIBLE MINUTE, they really only won their own war of independence. they lost the civil war too.

[BuyOurEverything]

Honestly, I didn't really feal much. Living in northern BC at the time, I didn't feel any more connection to the people in the twin towers than I did to any of the other millions of people suffering and dying all over the world. Rationally, I strongly opposed the WTC attacks, as I oppose any attacks on innocent people. No sane person could think that the WTC attacks were the start of a revolution.


So one would speculate that this would fit right into your idea of effecting change through violence.

One would be wrong. I'm all for violence wen neccessary but against the oppressors no innocent civilians. Innocent people will die in a war, that is an extremely unfortunate fact but targetting them is another issue alltogether.


Did you think we deserved it? Did you actually think to yourself "finally we got what we deserved"?

America as a country may very well have deserved it but those people in the towers didn't.

[RedCeltic]

There was a thread that was started about the WTC attacks on that very day here on Che-lives... and I can tell you that I personally was shocked. I was living on Long Island New York at the time, and was working on a high rise building (plumbing) when we heard on the radio that a plane flew into the WTC. we all rushed up to the roof just in time to see the second tower dissapear from the skyline.

There was also a person banned on this board for supporting the attacks and he actually said, "This is the kind of thing we should be doing."

Naturally it wasn't hard for me to put two and two together and realize this had to do with our involvment in the middle east. I automaticly thought back to the USS Cole. Yet in my mind, that still didn't justify the killing of all those people who's only crime was to go to work every day and push papers.

I actually read somewhere that there was a communist who worked in the WTC but was late for work that day.

[Monty Cantsin]

Any attack on innocent people is wrong, so I don’t care to much about the physical towers just the people inside. Also one more thing to think about in today’s wars 90% of deaths are civilian maybe they(people who did this) think it’s is war.

finally we got what we deserved"?

With all the stuff the U.S has done why couldn’t they expect people to hate them?

[(*]

I was shocked when I heard (I was an article on cnn.com while I was in school. Minutes after the first plane hit).

I don't support the killing of innocent people. Seeing the devastation and destruction it showed that this is what ignorance (on both sides), and war does.

The pentagon, I feel, was a legitimate target. I do regret the loss of innocent (non-military personnel)

[SonofRage]

I had just woken up when the first plane hit and I saw the second plane hit live on tv. I was horrified and saddened at the loss of life. It's funny, my first thoughts was that it was another attack from a right-winger like Tim McVeigh. Innocent people didn't deserve for acts by their government which they had nothing to do with. I'm originally from NYC and I lost neighbors in the attack. There was no joy in my heart that day and I felt its impact for months.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Honestly, it felt like watching a movie. With this 2 differences:
1. People died there
2. It was real and it would bring real consequences
Other than that, it was because of yanqui's policies. I'm sorry for those who died.

[El Brujo]

I was confused for about a day and then I realized it was another tragedy brought about by zionism and US imperialism. I felt bad for the victims but the US brought it on itsself.

[EneME]

That day I was woken up to my ex screaming on the phone to turn on the TV. So, just waking up and seeing that first thing in the morning was really scary and it was something I couldn't even comprehend that it felt like a movie, especially cuz i live really close to SF...another pretty big city. I dont know about everyone else, but I guess cuz I live in America, it hit close to home knowing it was definently possible to happen in my area. I'm a humanist and I can't stand seeing anyone suffer or death...I wouldn't wish it upon any regular citizen, so yes I felt very very much for those who were lost that day and I did shed tears for them and for their families. I dont know if I ever thought the FireFighters were on any higher level than anyone else who died that day, but I know I wasn't happy. I did understand the terrorists point of view, and i thought it was terrible that innocent Americans paid the price for the crap American Foreign Policy has done abroad. And instead of learning from it they go off and drop more fuckin bombs...idiots... I say they should aim for the White House next time...lol jk

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

With the exception of the second moronic and juvenile post, the rest of your responses are welcomed and appreciated. I'ts pleasant to know that not everyone here is callous towards America and it's people!

Hampton:You just keep playing with your comic books, eh?

[swapna]

Castro_sucks,

If you want an honest answer, I was very happy and excited.

The dishonest answer is " American govt is bad but killing innocent people is terrible. these people have nothing to do with palestine or Bin Laden"

I thought it served them right for being passive to the millions of murders beign done by the US govt from long ago.

One question you might ask is how can you be happy at the death of 2000 innocent people. But I do think the people are in a way directly or indirectly responsible for the governments actions.

Did anyone think about the 500,000 iraqis killed due to the embargo on medicines in Iraq?

Did anyone think about the palestines dying due to the US military support for Israel?

Did anyone think about how US instigates quarrels to sell its arms( thats the major export of US) and is directly responsible for many killings.

Did anyone think about the US hypocrisy of supporting a government as long as the govt serves its interests?

Ofcourse Bin Laden ,Saddam were once heros to the US and they supplied arms .
I personallly hate Bin Laden for what he is doing and what he stands for and what he did to Afghan with US help.

When 99% of the US citizens dont even bother to know about the actions of their governments and its consequences, why should I feel sorry for them.


Dont accuse me of not feeling sorry for innocent lives because I think they are ignorant not innocent. Since they are not being effected, they never knew the pain.
The govt does all kind of atrocities and the people say "Hey, its not my fault. It is the fault of my govt" Simple, Isnt it?

But Passivity and insensitiveness to the actions of their govt is their mistake. So I dont think they are innocent. They are responsible for the actions of their govt.

I will feel sorry for them when most of the US citizens stop thinking about only themselves and look at how the world is suffering due to the actions of US.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 05:34 PM
...I was very happy and excited.

I thought it served them right for being passive to the millions of murders beign done by the US govt from long ago.

When 99% of the US citizens dont even bother to know about the actions of their governments and its consequences, why should I feel sorry for them.

UNBELIEVABLE!!! So you were actually HAPPY so many people were killed, eh? Then YOU are a HYPOCRITE of INCREDIBLE PROPORTIONS! So by your logic......EVERYONE on this very same board that lives in the U.S. should be killed in the same way, and you'd think it would serve us all right! That means you would condone the killing of many of your "comrades" here as well. Yeah...thats makes sense now..."let's see, I'm all for helping and saving innocent civilians, but if some OTHER innocent civilians die in the process of me helping the others out, then thats ok!" :blink: I appreciate your honesty and must acknowledge it, but I wouldn't want you on the side of my cause merely for that thought process. I believe you'd do more harm than good to whatever ideology I'd believe.

To the REST of you guys on here....listen we may not all agree about our ideologies there boys and girls, but what this man is saying HAS to upset many of you. I don't know...perhaps I'm wrong!!

[The Feral Underclass]

I was alseep when it happened and then went round to my friends house to see them glued to the television. It didnt really sink in at first. Just another terrorist attack. Then the magnitude of what had happened sunk in.

Osama Bin Laden is a religious nut. I was shocked and horrified at what had happened because so many men and women who were innocent of any crime suffered because of a vendetta against the american government.

In hindsight the WTC attacks had no political motivations. If it had been because of palestine or for a specific situation perpetrated by US imperialism then it would not have shocked me so much. What is really horrific, other than the mass loss of life, was the fact this attack was motivated by religion. At least that is what the terrorists thought. It amazes me that religious beliefs, which for a start aren't real, would be exercised in such a brutal way.

The attacks were sickening to see and the people who did them blinded by illogical hatred for people who had done nothing wrong. However, until the US stops perpetrating it's imperialist agenda. Attacks like these will not stop.

Swapna


I thought it served them right for being passive to the millions of murders beign done by the US govt from long ago.

What do you think people could have done about it. The workers who worked in that tower have absolutly no control over their governments foreign policies. You can blame people for accepting the status quo. It is the nature of society. To do something about it people would have to organize a revolution and over throw the US government. But most people in the US at the present do not have that level of consciousness to determine how to change society and then have the confidence to do it. human beings have their beliefs and consciousness given to them by the ruling class. They are bombarded with propoganda every day by the plutocrats which govern our world. The people who died in the WTC could do nothing to stop George Bush or the top army brass from waging war on iraq or condoning the actions in palestine. They can not switch of their consciousness when ever it pleases you. in fact theya rent even aware that they have consciousness to begin to change. The world isnt black and white as you are making it out to be and it will take time to change it.

Simply condoning the actions of some religous zealots because it teaches the americans a lesson just shows am ignorant lack of human understanding and indeed societal understanding. And ignorance is exactly what drove these men to do the things they did. I think it is time to start opening up our minds, so that we can help the workers, just like those in the WTC, open theirs.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

According to the post before yours....we ALL deserve to die! Go figure!

[(*]

It would be extremely hypocritical for me to accept the death of innocent americans, yet be pissed off at the death of innocent Iraqi's.

The people in the world trade center (Who were not all american BTW), did not deserve to die.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by (*@Dec 16 2003, 05:51 PM
The people in the world trade center (Who were not all american BTW), did not deserve to die.
DAMN!! I hate to say I agree with you on anything....but I can't deny it! ;)

[Intifada]

anyone who felt any joy at seeing those horrific pictures is sick and inhuman. the simple fact is that nobody deserves to have their life snatched away from them.

but, the us government has to accept some responsibility for what happened on that day. the us should stop its terrorist acts in countries such as iraq and its support for brutal tyrants like sharon.

it was a wake up call to the assholes in the white house.

[toastedmonkey]

I wasnt particularly politically aware at the time, but i imediately recognised the significane and consequences.

I found out when i got home from school, for the first few hours of TV i thought, christ how could someone do this?
Then my next logic of thought was, what would drive someone to do this? This was really the start of my anti-americanism.
Then i thought well hang on, if this had happened in France or Romania for say, would it of been such a big deal? I certaintly dont think it would be remember this far on.

America got what they deserved, but that died people didnt.
But still the death of those people does not hurt or affect me, all you have to think is, how more many people have died since because of americas actions?
As for what would drive someone to do this? given any length of thought you can begin to understand their justification

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 06:15 PM
Then my next logic of thought was, what would drive someone to do this? This was really the start of my anti-americanism.

As someone mentioned before, it is RELIGION that caused this! Your hatred should be directed towards RADICAL Islam! Believe me, they would'nt hesistate one communist second to kill you AND your family in the name of Allah!

[swapna]

UNBELIEVABLE!!! So you were actually HAPPY so many people were killed, eh?

I really dont believe it is unbelievable for you . I think the very reason why you want to discuss the WTC attacks right now is because you want to get some negative responses like mine and argue to prove your American Patriotism.

When you posted this thread, I am sure you expected atleast a few responses which would say they are happy.



Then YOU are a HYPOCRITE of INCREDIBLE PROPORTIONS

Lol.. The wost hypocrites in the world talking about hypocrisy. You have hypocrisy deep rooted in all your actions including your daily-life.


EVERYONE on this very same board that lives in the U.S. should be killed in the same way, and you'd think it would serve us all right! That means you would condone the killing of many of your "comrades" here as well

NO, I wouldnt. I didnt say they people should be killed. I said I am not sorry that they are killed.

Only when they feel sorry for their govt actions, would I feel sorry for them.

What do you think Castro?? You govt behaves however it likes, killing millions and you expect overwhelming sympathy when such a smiliar thing hurts you?

It is ok if your govt kills the innocent civilians from my nation and other nations ,you dont even acknowledge that such things happened and when the same thing happens to you, you expect me to say "Oh!! it is so cruel. I am sorry and all such kinds of nonsense".
Think about who is a hypocrite.

Tell you what, If myself was at the WTC when it happened and I were to jump out of the window and die, my response would have been the same.




To the REST of you guys on here....listen we may not all agree about our ideologies there boys and girls, but what this man is saying HAS to upset many of you.

Actually a woman. I dont care if it upsets anyone here. Truth is bitter and it might upset many Americans.


Anarch,


What do you think people could have done about it. The workers who worked in that tower have absolutly no control over their governments foreign policies.

Yes they should have atleast condemned the actions of their govt.
I was in US when those attacks happened and most of the people I met said "Those people are jealous that we have freedom and we are rich"
That shows how they support the actions of their government.
Their attitude is "WE are powerful, we will exploit the world , we will kill innocent civilians to make our nation rich" and she some crocodile tears that innocent civilians are killed and when one incident of such sort happens to them, if I refuse to be sorry I am called a hypocrite. How convenient!!

As long as Americans are rich and luxurious they wouldnt care what happens to the world.


Simply condoning the actions of some religous zealots because it teaches the americans a lesson just shows am ignorant lack of human understanding and indeed societal understanding

I agree Bin Laden is a religious zealot . I didnt condone his action. I said I am not sorry for his action.

I see it as a fight between imperialism and religious fanaticism. I want both of them to be destroyed.

Anyway who made the religious Zealot strong? It is America. When the religious Zealot destroyed the lives of women in Afghanistan and made them slaves, or when drove the innocent civilians to poverty and caused the death of millions , US said he was a hero.

[dopediana]

i was in brazil at the time and i heard about it in class from this girl whose dad was one of the american ambassadors to brazil. all that was going through my head was the word karma. it's truly tragic that innocent people were killed and it's thrilling that everyone got together and helped people from the wreckage, but i'm pissed about the way the US govt and EPA didn't tell people about health hazards left from the aftermath and about how they shipped UNTREATED WASTE AND SCRAPMETAL WITH ASBESTOS AND OTHER CHEMICALS to asia where the big guns just don't care about little people. and poor records were kept too. noone learned anything from 9/11. and when it comes to symbols, i think it's invigorating that monuments to militarism and imperialism were shown to be so vulnerable. too many people are suffering for 9/11 than should be.

[toastedmonkey]

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Dec 16 2003, 06:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Dec 16 2003, 06:57 PM)
[email protected] 16 2003, 06:15 PM
Then my next logic of thought was, what would drive someone to do this? This was really the start of my anti-americanism.

As someone mentioned before, it is RELIGION that caused this&#33; Your hatred should be directed towards RADICAL Islam&#33; Believe me, they would&#39;nt hesistate one communist second to kill you AND your family in the name of Allah&#33;[/b]
Sorry i have to disagree, no no, im not sorry.

America has killed millions of people, in the 20th century, yet they expect no retaliation at all??? Life just aint like that.
As the saying goes, "What comes around, goes around"

In reflection America has payed a very little price for the pain it has caused throughout the world.

You cant count the amount of deaths America are responsible for, and all because 3000 people, not millions, die the world should stand up and say "thats outrageous" and back america? if you belive that then i have over credited you with intelligence you quite clearly dont have.

America are the terrorists, they are the ones that police the world striking fear or "correcting" anything that they disagree with.
That is what has upset people of the world, that is why the world has retaliated, religion is just a sideshow in this play.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by swapna+Dec 16 2003, 07:05 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (swapna @ Dec 16 2003, 07:05 PM) I really dont believe it is unbelievable for you . I think the very reason why you want to discuss the WTC attacks right now is because you want to get some negative responses like mine and argue to prove your American Patriotism.[/b]
ACTUALLY, if you were to remove the blindfold from your radical eyes long enough to understand WHY I posted this, you&#39;d see that I am trying hard to understand the people on this board&#33; I acknowledged and appreciated your honesty, but I DON&#39;T (and WILL NOT) have to agree with it&#33;



Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 07:05 PM
When you posted this thread, I am sure you expected atleast a few responses which would say they are happy.
Again, READ above&#33;



Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 07:05 PM
What do you think Castro?? You govt behaves however it likes, killing millions...
You know.....ENOUGH of this BULLSHIT lady&#33; I want you to PROVE to me IN WRITING and from an UNBIASED source exactly WHERE and HOW the U.S. has killed MILLIONS&#33;&#33; I want to see HARD PROOF (with MILLIONS of deaths "caused by the US" it shouldn&#39;t be that difficult to find an UNBIASED SOURCE on the subject&#33;)&#33; HARD EVIDENCE&#33; Its so easy to say the words "US has killed millions" with nothing to back it up&#33; Soooo GO AHEAD&#33;


Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 07:05 PM
It is ok if your govt kills the innocent civilians from my nation and other nations ,you dont even acknowledge that such things happened
AGAIN...READ the previous statement&#33; And next time, INCLUDE the name of your country&#33;


[email protected] 16 2003, 07:05 PM
Yes they should have atleast condemned the actions of their govt.

Oh...much like many on THIS board do as well? BUT according to YOUR "logic" once again, they&#39;re not doing enough to be vocal on the subject, and would have been labelled the same way by YOU had THEY been killed in the WTC attacks?&#33; Yeah...makes sense&#33; :blink:

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 07:26 PM
America has killed millions of people, in the 20th century,
Bahahahahaha...there&#39;s that phrase again&#33;&#33; :lol: :lol: :lol:

Right right right.....RELIGION had nothing to do with the WTC attack&#33; heh heh heh...this is like shooting fish in a barrel&#33;

[toastedmonkey]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 07:27 PM
You know.....ENOUGH of this BULLSHIT lady&#33; I want you to PROVE to me IN WRITING and from an UNBIASED source exactly WHERE and HOW the U.S. has killed MILLIONS&#33;&#33; I want to see HARD PROOF (with MILLIONS of deaths "caused by the US" it shouldn&#39;t be that difficult to find an UNBIASED SOURCE on the subject&#33;)&#33; HARD EVIDENCE&#33; Its so easy to say the words "US has killed millions" with nothing to back it up&#33; Soooo GO AHEAD&#33;
90,000 in Hiroshima (http://www.danford.net/hirodead.htm)
80,000 in Nagasaki (http://www.worldhistory.com/newsletter5_weapons.htm)
58,000 Americans, a quarter of a million Vietnamese on the Saigon government side, tens of thousands of Laotians, a million Cambodians in the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge. (http://www.wardogs.com/requiem2.html)
3000 died in Chile in 1973 (http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/columnists/joe_rodriguez/6866096.htm)
Che and his comrades.

There’s your millions and that took 5 minutes on google.
That didnt include the deaths caused by america by instating and supporting Pinochet, Sadam Hussaine and the other REAL Dictators in the world.

Edit:Think properly before you use the phrase Bullshit in future.

[dannie]

i was like ah well, shit happens, the us deserved, altough i didn&#39;t agree with civillians being killed
maybe that&#39;s because i live in europe, i wasn&#39;t directly affected by it and at that time of my life i didn&#39;t cary who would die and who didn&#39;t

[Bolshevika]

The innocent people who died (the students working at the restaurant, the illegal immigrants who got no money from the Red Cross, and other working people) are an unforgivable tragedy, however, the big capitalist bosses I feel little pity for.

I think Bush let/was behind the attacks.

However, to be honest, at the time when it happened I was extremely young and started to cry and "pray" to "god" (I live about 30 minutes by train from where the WTC used to be, there was even some smoke in my neighborhood). I could not completely understand the situation until George W. Bush and his chimp mug got on my TV and made a moronic speech.

[(*]

Attacks should be directed at the military, or government.

We are quick to condemn the US forces when civilians are killed, we should extend the same condemnation to the death of American civilians.

[The Feral Underclass]

swapna


I was in US when those attacks happened and most of the people I met said "Those people are jealous that we have freedom and we are rich"

This is exactly what I am talking about. Youa re arguing that Americans have a full perspective and choose to act like this. I am saying they do not have a full perspective. So the decisions they make are the decisions of the status quo. They decisions they are told to make by the propoganda forced down their necks by their government. Look at the country. it is a hyve of greed. This is how people in american are brought up to believe. They are brought up to believe that God created their country etc etc etc. They have a lack of consciousness and so can not be held responsable for their countries foregin policy.


Their attitude is "WE are powerful, we will exploit the world , we will kill innocent civilians to make our nation rich"

Not all americans think this. Many of the people in WTC will not have thought this. This is anti-american hysteria. You are not looking at the situation with any objectivness. Yes some americans, expecially those in power, are arrogant bigots who do in fact think that it is ok for the US to think this. They are wrong. And we have to fight those arguments. We have to try and convince them that their government is not right, and that they do not have their interests at heart. Blowing them up with planes is not the right, or a just way to change anything. In fact look what it has done to the world. It gave GWB an excuse to start this "war on terrorism."

You are being as narrow minded as you accuse the americans for being. On one hand you make a statment about how bad it is for americans to kill innocent civilians but it is ok for american civilians to die?


Anyway who made the religious Zealot strong? It is America. When the religious Zealot destroyed the lives of women in Afghanistan and made them slaves, or when drove the innocent civilians to poverty and caused the death of millions , US said he was a hero.

it was not the peoploe murdered in the WTC who created Bin Laden, it was their government of thirty years ago. Les get this into perspective.

[monkeydust]

My initial thought was surprise that anyone was able to do it, so precisely and without the US knowing or being able to stop it, it was kind of a wake up call for America. Though distanced from the people and the country I did feel saddened by the loss of innocent life.

It was when in Britain when a minutes silence was declared that made me somewhat angry. Don&#39;t get me wrong I do feel for the lives and I don&#39;t mind spending a minute in silence. What made me angry was that the message carrie dacross was that these white American lives were worth so much more than the thousands of innocents that die every day and still do of disease and starvation in the third world. In expressing this feeling of &#39;superiority&#39; it seems to me that the West ignored the reasons that brought people to commit such atrocities as 9/11.

[EneME]

Originally posted by toastedmonkey+Dec 16 2003, 08:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (toastedmonkey @ Dec 16 2003, 08:12 PM)
[email protected] 16 2003, 07:27 PM
You know.....ENOUGH of this BULLSHIT lady&#33; I want you to PROVE to me IN WRITING and from an UNBIASED source exactly WHERE and HOW the U.S. has killed MILLIONS&#33;&#33; I want to see HARD PROOF (with MILLIONS of deaths "caused by the US" it shouldn&#39;t be that difficult to find an UNBIASED SOURCE on the subject&#33;)&#33; HARD EVIDENCE&#33; Its so easy to say the words "US has killed millions" with nothing to back it up&#33; Soooo GO AHEAD&#33;
90,000 in Hiroshima (http://www.danford.net/hirodead.htm)
80,000 in Nagasaki (http://www.worldhistory.com/newsletter5_weapons.htm)
58,000 Americans, a quarter of a million Vietnamese on the Saigon government side, tens of thousands of Laotians, a million Cambodians in the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge. (http://www.wardogs.com/requiem2.html)
3000 died in Chile in 1973 (http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/columnists/joe_rodriguez/6866096.htm)
Che and his comrades.

There’s your millions and that took 5 minutes on google.
That didnt include the deaths caused by america by instating and supporting Pinochet, Sadam Hussaine and the other REAL Dictators in the world.

Edit:Think properly before you use the phrase Bullshit in future. [/b]
75,000 killed and thousands "dissapeared" during the 80&#39;s thanks to US services/training/financial support in EL Salvador....thought I&#39;d add on

[Faceless]

Bahahahahaha...there&#39;s that phrase again&#33;&#33; You may laugh but let me tell you that about as many children died in Iraq as people in the WTC disaster. I hope that brings it home for you. I got a bout of insomnia that night because I saw those consequences clear as day. I was shocked and scared. I fear America but to me its people are often victims themselves of the capitalist catastrophe and I hold no grudge against the American people.

Here&#39;s another little fact. > 850 million will go underfed and 20 million will die of starvation this year. Perhaps the worst way to die. It takes weeks of agony to starve. 1/3 do not have access to safe drinking water. That is 1/3 don&#39;t know if their next glass of water will kill them or not. Now tell me that in this world of surplus the WTC attack doesn&#39;t pale to insignificance.


I was alseep when it happened Anarchist Tension, it was gone midday over here when the attack came to our screens. What time do you sleep till on weekdays?&#33; :lol:

[SgtPepper369]

yeah... 9-11 was the start of my anti-americanism. I hate the fact that 3000 people had to die. Murder is never deserved by anyone (especialy civilian). I too put up american flags, felt "sickened" by the people celebrating, kept the tv turned on forever. and I wanted to kill whoever did it. Then I slowly started to realise that all of the "United We Stand" was bullshit. Racist bastards that I know were all "9-11 United America." then they were like "I want a slave". It really pissed me off when I saw a guy on a message board who wanted to celebrate "Beat Up Arabs Day". So I did a 180 and became anti-american, I took down all the flags. Booed every time I heard some gay country song going "God Bless the USA". And realised that America has killed more than were killed in 9-11. So Fuck the terrorists who killed all 3000 of those people. Fuck All the people who used 9-11 as a reason for war. And fuck Bush.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by toastedmonkey+Dec 16 2003, 08:12 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (toastedmonkey @ Dec 16 2003, 08:12 PM) 90,000 in Hiroshima (http://www.danford.net/hirodead.htm)[/b]
Hmm....probably just about right&#33;

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 08:12 PM
80,000 in Nagasaki (http://www.worldhistory.com/newsletter5_weapons.htm)
Another that looks pretty accurate.

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 08:12 PM
58,000 Americans, a quarter of a million Vietnamese on the Saigon government side, tens of thousands of Laotians, a million Cambodians in the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge. (http://www.wardogs.com/requiem2.html)
HA&#33; But here&#39;s where your whole number&#39;s game gets flushed DOWN THE TOILET&#33; Sorry spindoctor&#33; That one WON&#39;T wash&#33; I read EACH link provided. Here&#39;s what this site had to say: "In a war in which so many died for illusions and foolish causes and mad dreams - 58,000 Americans, a quarter of a million Vietnamese on the Saigon government side, tens of thousands of Laotians, a million Cambodians in the killing fields of the Khmer Rouge" It doesn&#39;t SAY those were caused by America slim&#33; So, by my calculations..thats 250,000 Vietnamese on the Saigon government side AND NO MORE FROM U.S. HANDS DURING WAR&#33; Sorry....nice try though&#33;


Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 08:12 PM
3000 died in Chile in 1973 (http://www.bayarea.com/mld/mercurynews/news/columnists/joe_rodriguez/6866096.htm)
Funny...I remember specifically stating UNBIASED news sources. Sorry...a ZERO for you&#33;


Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 08:12 PM
There’s your millions and that took 5 minutes on google.
Wow...yeah, I guess its pretty easy to put together "millions" when you just throw numbers around and spin to death&#33; By my calculations, I only see 90,000 in Hiro, 80,000 in Naga and 250,000 in Vietnam&#33; Thats 420,000 sport&#33; now, I ask you again....WHERE are those MILLIONS????&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;


Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 08:12 PM
That didnt include the deaths caused by america by instating and supporting Pinochet, Sadam Hussaine and the other REAL Dictators in the world.
Oooooh...I see...so THOSE guys are ALL OUR FAULT TOO??&#33;&#33;&#33; Oh I get now where you&#39;re SLANTED numbers come from&#33; Think again bud&#33;


[email protected] 16 2003, 08:12 PM
Edit:Think properly before you use the phrase Bullshit in future.
And think AGAIN before you TRY to pull off a spin of such EPIC proportions in the future&#33;

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 10:40 PM
...It really pissed me off when I saw a guy on a message board who wanted to celebrate "Beat Up Arabs Day". So I did a 180 and became anti-american...
Wow...ONE person was able to do that to you? Are you THAT weak minded to allow some bigot idiot to change your mind? Jeez Louis....you guys are pretty soft. you&#39;re in the right place then pepper&#33;

[ComradeRobertRiley]

When I saw it on the news for the first time a little smile could be seen on my face.

I thought to myself:

who didnt see that comeing?

and:

its about time someone stood up to those bastards.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 11:11 PM
its about time someone stood up to those bastards.
Yeah...those bastard towers were a nuisance to the NYC skyline and blocking many a view of the water. Good that they fell&#33; :blink:

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I am against all religions, they are all murdering.

But atleast we should have some respect for other countries cultures right?

Well obviously the yankee response is NO

They (USA) go to foreign countries and put there army bases whereever they feel like it with no regard to that countries religious beleifes/culture.

Its hardly suprising at all that the US was going to be punished for it.

The US has only itself to blame.

[swapna]

Anarch,

They decisions they are told to make by the propoganda forced down their necks by their government. Look at the country. it is a hyve of greed. This is how people in american are brought up to believe.

I agree with this.

But sometimes people do suffer for what their government does. If they dont feel the pain why in the world will they think about their govts actions.


Even though you might not accept it Americans think their life is more valuable than others and they expect the whole world to think so.. Unless this attitude changes, I will never sympathize with them.


You are being as narrow minded as you accuse the americans for being. On one hand you make a statment about how bad it is for americans to kill innocent civilians but it is ok for american civilians to die?
Yes I was being narrow minded in being happy at their deaths but I couldnt help it.
I did not tell it is ok to kill. I told I felt happy because the greatest terrorists in the world are facing the effects of terrorism.


In fact look what it has done to the world. It gave GWB an excuse to start this "war on terrorism."

Thats true. Let them rejoice at their so called "victories". But I dont think Muslims will keep quiet . They will rebound and the next attacks might be more horrible than the sept 11.

Castro Sucks,


I You know.....ENOUGH of this BULLSHIT lady&#33; I want you to PROVE to me IN WRITING and from an UNBIASED source exactly WHERE and HOW the U.S. has killed MILLIONS&#33;&#33; I want to see HARD PROOF (with MILLIONS of deaths "caused by the US" it shouldn&#39;t be that difficult to find an UNBIASED SOURCE on the subject&#33;)&#33; HARD EVIDENCE&#33; Its so easy to say the words "US has killed millions" with nothing to back it up&#33; Soooo GO AHEAD

Good attitude Castro. "We refuse to believe that our govt did anything wrong , we strongly support our government and we shoudlnt he held responsible for our government&#39;s actions"

"we will be happy as long as our govt loots the thrid world countries and provide food for us but any one from the thrid world shouldnt harm anynone of us in anyway"

Now, give me an honest answer. Dont you think America was responsible of millions of civilian deaths in many coutnries since second world war. I think a few of the comrades here posted informative evidence that you can go through the archives. Ask any Palestine or Iraqi.

Anyway you are a hypocrite American brainwashed by American media. So I would be surprised if you give me an honest answer.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

I agree completely with your post swapna.

I hate the way the yankees think that their life is more valueble than the life of a foreigner. Those egotisticle/celebraty watching/shallow people.


Also muslims are unrelenting, they will attack again and it will be much more destructive than the 9/11 (911 USA emergancy number LOL). This is definately not the last we have seen from the muslims.

[Xvall]

Swapna&#39;s beliefs do not represent that of the board.

I felt bad about it. Non-combatants died, and that is never a good thing. It might have been tolerable had they attacked some military facility in retrubution to United States intervention without getting any innocent people caught in the way; that was not the case. A significant portion of the people killed were working class, and all it did was shove the United States into a fernzy of blind fanaticism, flag woshipping, and hate crimes. (I was a victim of one myself) Strangely enough, this seemed to only help the United States Government. I didn&#39;t feel happy about it, if that&#39;s what you&#39;re asking. I&#39;m not that much of an asshole.


I want you to PROVE to me IN WRITING and from an UNBIASED source exactly WHERE and HOW the U.S. has killed MILLIONS&#33;&#33;

Don&#39;t even ask. We&#39;ve done it in the past. We can do it again. Let&#39;s start with the 10,000,000 or more Native Americans systematically killed by territorial expansion (Manifest Destiny, Pioneering, as your history books like to call it) and the deliberate spread of diseases. I could also talk about those lynchings that the United States government did absolutely nothing about. Or that little carpet bombing campaign over Dresden? Hiroshima? Nagasaki ring a bell? How about all of that land you annexed from Mexico? That was really bloodless wasn&#39;t it? The 2,000,000 people in Vietnam. Did they just drop dead of shock or something? That has nothing to do with the fire you rained down over Hanoi, does it? Panama? El Salvador? All those dictators you helped put in power? Diem. Pinochet.

I can go on forever about this.

[lostsoul]

i was deeply sadden to see innocent people dying while the ones who are guilty of crimes continue to live in the whitehouse.

i guess thats how it is, innocents always take the punishment for the powerful people&#39;s actions

[Ortega]

Very true. I would agree with many of the other people on the board in saying that, while the American government may have deserved it, the innocent people who died certainly did not.
It was without a doubt a sad thing.

[Le Libérer]

Lost soul, your statement was eloquent.... and exactly how I felt.

I was horrified as I watched the footage for the first time. It made me weep. Then it made me angry, knowing of all the terroist acts the US has done to the rest of the world. Like a school yard bully, thats the US government. Use and exploit others for our own good and then throw them away.

And the twist in all this was the announcement from Bush, "We are at war"... and the implicaitons of that. Like in Gore Vidals book, "Perpectual war for perpectual peace", at that announcement all big corporations and insurance companies were void of all claims. Imagine the effects of Bushes big Corp buddies no longer responsible for paying out insurance claims that would have been filed from the WTC? Everyone won didnt they? Everyone except the American people who died or who had family that died. ANd who then were suckered into nationalism and campaign for war. The irony of that&#33;

The American people: Cattle... chumps.... most of them would still vote for Bush, especially now that Saddam has been found. Makes me ill..........

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by Drake [email protected] 16 2003, 11:47 PM
Don&#39;t even ask. We&#39;ve done it in the past. We can do it again. Let&#39;s start with the 10,000,000 or more Native Americans systematically killed by territorial expansion (Manifest Destiny, Pioneering, as your history books like to call it) and the deliberate spread of diseases. I could also talk about those lynchings that the United States government did absolutely nothing about. Or that little carpet bombing campaign over Dresden? Hiroshima? Nagasaki ring a bell? How about all of that land you annexed from Mexico? That was really bloodless wasn&#39;t it? The 2,000,000 people in Vietnam. Did they just drop dead of shock or something? That has nothing to do with the fire you rained down over Hanoi, does it? Panama? El Salvador? All those dictators you helped put in power? Diem. Pinochet.

I can go on forever about this.
Drake, I respect and acknowledge your answer. You seem to be one of the only ones here that actually felt bad about the innocent lives lost on 9/11 AND that feel glad hussein was captured&#33; I hope you can also understand that I&#39;ll need HARD numbers and FACTS. NOT speculations and conspiracy theories about deliberate disease spreading and other such things. Please, give me HARD DATA on these 10,000,000 you say died at the hands of the US. I wasn&#39;t around when this was discussed before.

PS: LostSoul(thats the name of my boat), I agree with your post as well. Very well said&#33;

[swapna]

Castro Sucks,

http://www.neravt.com/left/invade.htm

shows how US messes up with countries to benefit itself


http://www.thelawparty.org/CIATimeline.htm

These are the atrocities in which the CIA was directly involved.

You can make a search in google if you dont believe the source.

And tell me, should I still sympathize with the US?

These two sites are from the archives in che-lives.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2003, 01:05 AM
These two sites are from the archives in che-lives.
Oh are they? how credible and "unbiased" can they be? Sorry, I need unbiased, well documented facts lady. If you cannot come up with them...if you&#39;re only argument is "the US killed millions" with no SOLID evidence to back it up, then you&#39;re beating a dead horse&#33;

[swapna]

Castro,
I dont what sources you consider biased and what sources you dont. So as I suggested you can search in google for each incident, gather your opinions and then come to a conclusion if US killed or didnt kill.

[Stephan]

Well, now that I&#39;ve been horrified by some of the responses on this thread, I&#39;ll give my reactions - the reactions from a laissez-faire capitalist.

There were two primary losses on 9-11, which I reacted to.

1. The loss of innocent working people&#39;s lives for an unjust cause. (This includes military personal killed at the Pentagon).

2. The loss of one of the greatest monuments ever built to capitalism: The World Trade Centers.

I was horrified watching the surreal videos. I was even more horrified a month ago when I walked over to the site, since I now live in NYC, and checked it out. It definitly concretized the events that happened.

Beside pain and grief, I felt anger. Anger at both the fundamental Islamic terrorists, who committed such a heinous act, and at the AMerican government, who, through past appeasement, couldn&#39;t stop such an
event from happening.

My anger doubled when I witnessed the pathetic response from the US gov&#39;t and when I listened to Bush appease the enemy in his speeches.

After Pearl Harbor, FDR, who I thoroughly hate, leveled Tokyo with airraids. At least FDR had the moral resolve to know the US was right, and that the loss of innocent Japanese lives was guilt on the Empire of Japan, who began the war. The same type of response would have been appropriate after 9-11 on all countries that sponsor terrorism. Instead, Bush launches his civilian-friendly "war" on terrorism, where the lives of American troops are sacrificed to protect civilians.

Overall, my emotions are horror, anger, and disgust with the US government&#39;s appeasement of terrorist sponsoring states. And as a result, everytime I get on an airplane I feel fear, because there&#39;s no telling whether some Allah-worshiping terrorist is on board, who&#39;s going to blow himself up for the sake of creating his utopia: a stagnant theocratic dictatorship.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2003, 02:05 AM
My anger doubled when I witnessed the pathetic response from the US gov&#39;t and when I listened to Bush appease the enemy in his speeches.


Main Entry: ap·pease
Pronunciation: &-&#39;pEz
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ap·peased; ap·peas·ing
Etymology: Middle English appesen, from Middle French apaisier, from a- (from Latin ad-) + pais peace —more at PEACE
Date: 14th century
1 : to bring to a state of peace or quiet : CALM
2 : to cause to subside : ALLAY <appeased my hunger>
3 : PACIFY, CONCILIATE; especially : to buy off (an aggressor) by concessions usually at the sacrifice of principles


I don&#39;t think Bush was in the mood to appease ANY Islamic radical at that point&#33; I think much like FDR, he went into action&#33;

[Comrade Ceausescu]

everyone is "biased" to a certain extent castro.you really piss me off.i think what you want is a western source,eh?because they are soooo trust-worthy

[SgtPepper369]

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Dec 16 2003, 11:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Dec 16 2003, 11:09 PM)
[email protected] 16 2003, 10:40 PM
...It really pissed me off when I saw a guy on a message board who wanted to celebrate "Beat Up Arabs Day". So I did a 180 and became anti-american...
Wow...ONE person was able to do that to you? Are you THAT weak minded to allow some bigot idiot to change your mind? Jeez Louis....you guys are pretty soft. you&#39;re in the right place then pepper&#33; [/b]

Jesus, talk about taking things out of context. Actually holmes I wasn&#39;t reffering to that punk son of a ***** directly. I was refering to all the super patriot activities that I was participating in, and when looking at myself in the mirror I realised it was all a bunch of bullshit and I had fallen victim to propaganda.

and another thing allthogh 420,000 lives weren&#39;t the millions you were expecting... It&#39;s still a shit of a lot more than was suffered in 9-11. I feel horrible that we had lost all those lives... but one thing is for sure... the US government better remember how it felt before they do the same (or worse) ever again.

[RedCeltic]

As someone mentioned before, it is RELIGION that caused this&#33; Your hatred should be directed towards RADICAL Islam&#33; Believe me, they would&#39;nt hesistate one communist second to kill you AND your family in the name of Allah&#33;

Also don&#39;t forget that it was the United States who trained them to fight communists. If it was the USSR that had troops stationed constantly in the middle east, I&#39;m sure they would have attacked Moscow. Osoma is such a religious nut infact that he can&#39;t say the name "Saudi Arabia" because he doesn&#39;t recognize their power... and instead calls it "land of two holy sites."

[synthesis]

Let&#39;s give a little run-through of the major American-produced atrocities of the last fifty years or so.

Vietnam: 2,500,000 - 3,500,000 innocent Vietnamese civilians
Cambodia: 1,000,000 - 2,000,000 innocent Cambodian civilians
Korea: 1,000,000 - 3,000,000 innocent Korean civilians
Afghanistan: 750,000 - 1,000,000 innocent Afghani civilians
Indonesia: 500,000 - 1,000,000 innocent Indonesian civilians
Iraq: 1,200,000 - 2,200,000 innocent Iraqi civilians
Japan: 670,000+ innocent Japanese civilians
Germany: 250,000 - 500,000 innocent German civilians
Guatemala: 200,000+ innocent Guatemalan civilians
East Timor: 200,000+ innocent East Timorese civilians
Philippines: 200,000+ innocent Filipino civilians
El Salvador: 75,000+ innocent El Salvadoran civilians
Nicaragua: 13,000+ innocent Nicaraguan civilians
Somalia: 10,000+ innocent Somalian civilians

It&#39;s all here.

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstatete...gyofTerror.html (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html)

Although the site itself is a bit inflammatory, all the statistics and information comes from respectable sources such as William Blum and Noam Chomsky.

[Stephan]

Castro_Sucks,

I can&#39;t tell from what you said, do you agree that Bush is an appeaser, or not?

Dyer,

First of all, your list has no connection to the topic of why Islamic terrorists attacked America. (If you&#39;d like to discuss why, and I&#39;ll tell you now it has NOTHING to with the wars America has fought and usually won, start a new thread).

All that should be focused on is whether what the Islamic terrorists did was morally justified. What was their rational? Their purpose? In the end, the act of destruction was motivated by a hatred for western values, such as INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM, HAPPINESS, PRIVATE PROPERTY, WEALTH, SUCCESS, TECHNOLOGY, etc, etc, etc... THIS is why the terrorists and their acts are evil, and should be condemned.

Now, as an side to your list.

In a war, the deaths of innocent citizens on both sides is the guilt of the nation that initiated force, i.e. - the nation who was not justified in their offense or even in their defense.

As such, all innocent lives lost by means of American military might should be attributed to the side unjustified in fighting the war.

Vietnam - Damn stupid war for Americans to be in, since it wasn&#39;t in our nation&#39;s selfish interest. However, in the end, we were trying to prevent totalitarianism from spreading. (much could be debated here, I know)

Korea - Ditto. American&#39;s were justified in fighting the war, the other side was not.

Afghanistan - Deaths of civilians is the guilt of the Taliban.

Iraq - The man responsible for the deaths you listed and countless others will hopefully be stoned to death ASAP.

Japan - Hey, they started it. Pearl Harbor. You play with matches, you get burned. We even gave them the chance to surrender before we dropped the nukes.

Germany - Again, all the guilt of the millions who died rests on the shoulders of the Nazi&#39;s, who started the war, and were unjustified in doing so.

As to the others, I don&#39;t know enough about them to comment. However, as I&#39;ve said before, I do not think the US is perfect. We&#39;ve gone into way too many altruistic wars, and not enough selfish ones.

However, America is still the freest nation that has ever existed. As such, it is infinitely better than the Islamic terrorists, who seek to end all that is good within western civ.

I can&#39;t believe on a 911 thread there is so much Anti-Americanism "we deserved it&#33;" bullshit - and so little speaking out against religious fanaticism, which is one of the primary causes of all evil in the world. How can you anti-Americans even claim to value liberty and happiness? (I may be making an incorrect assumption here that you do. If so, dismiss my question.)

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2003, 11:17 PM

In the end, the act of destruction was motivated by a hatred for western values, such as INDIVIDUAL FREEDOM, HAPPINESS, PRIVATE PROPERTY, WEALTH, SUCCESS, TECHNOLOGY, etc, etc, etc... THIS is why the terrorists and their acts are evil, and should be condemned.


Hate to break it to you, but there are a lot of other countries that have individual freedom, happiness, private property, wealth, success, and technology.

Why didn&#39;t they attack Canada? Or Germany?

The primary cause of "evil", IMO, is ignorance.

[Bolshevika]

The terrorist war against the people of Yugoslavian people should be counted as well, although it was a coalition of terrorist imperialists in NATO.

And America was not justified to be in Korea, since it was South Korea that started the war. So technichly, it was failed imperialism since China only helped in defend North Korea.

[Charred_Phoenix]

I felt tired, and a little hungry. :D

Actually, my first reaction was horror, but then I thought "Who&#39;s the U.S. going to invade for this?"

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Actually its funny how the numbers go down as time passes.The us murderd at least a million in inonesia.about 40,000 plus were killed over all in chile under pinochet.yet now its only 4000 or 3000.

[Urban Rubble]

Actually its funny how the numbers go down as time passes.The us murderd at least a million in inonesia.about 40,000 plus were killed over all in chile under pinochet.yet now its only 4000 or 3000.

You&#39;re insane if you think Pinochet killed anywhere near 40,000. I&#39;m all for bringing the U.S&#39;s attrocities to light, but let&#39;s be realistic. I have studied the Pinochet regime extensively and the 4,000 number is pretty accurate.


Funny...I remember specifically stating UNBIASED news sources. Sorry...a ZERO for you&#33;

So because the source was biased you don&#39;t count these deaths ? Wow.


Wow...yeah, I guess its pretty easy to put together "millions" when you just throw numbers around and spin to death&#33; By my calculations, I only see 90,000 in Hiro, 80,000 in Naga and 250,000 in Vietnam&#33; Thats 420,000 sport&#33; now, I ask you again....WHERE are those MILLIONS????&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Do you actually believe that these were the only 3 military operations the U.S was involved with ? Listen man, if you want to defend the U.S that&#39;s fine, but you are denying facts accepted by any sensible historian, right or left wing. The U.S has been responsible for millions of deaths and this is not hard to prove.

I will list some things and you look them up to get the death counts. I thought of these off the top of my head, there are far more. I did this so youcould find the death counts yourself and try to come back and tell me we haven&#39;t killed a million people.

Vietnam (we also went into Canbodia which set the stage for Pol Pot&#39;s rise to power).
Atom bombs in Japan.
Coup in Chile.
Aiding Indonesia&#39;s Suharto in invading East Timor.
The whole Greece/Cyprus thing.
Bombing of Grenada
Nicaragua
Bombing of Guatemala
Afghanistan
Iraq sanctions (disregard the war, we&#39;ll just look at how many died through economic sanctions, remember, they weren&#39;t legally allowed to have chlorine to purify water)

Look up the death counts to these and tell me we haven&#39;t killed a million people.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

You&#39;re insane if you think Pinochet killed anywhere near 40,000. I&#39;m all for bringing the U.S&#39;s attrocities to light, but let&#39;s be realistic. I have studied the Pinochet regime extensively and the 4,000 number is pretty accurate.

It was certainly above 4,000.Saying otherwise is ridiculous western propaganda.I am dissapointed that you would think this.

[synthesis]

In a war, the deaths of innocent citizens on both sides is the guilt of the nation that initiated force, i.e. - the nation who was not justified in their offense or even in their defense.

This statement is just wrong on so many levels.

Using your logic, America and only America is at fault for 9/11. The Taliban wouldn&#39;t have been shit if it weren&#39;t for the United States. Also, the U.S. funds Israel, clearly a murderous terrorist state. It all comes back to America.

However, I refuse to believe that the 3,000 innocents - the Pentagon war criminals were not innocents - had anything to do with the actions of the sadistic American government.

Secondly, it is never justifiable to kill innocent civilians for any purpose. Why? Because the innocents did not necessarily agree with the actions of the government in question. It is utterly wrong to punish people for living under a belligerent government.

Finally, it is stupid to assert that a government is unjustified in defending itself. All individuals and all collectives are instilled with a desire to survive. Do you really think that Ho Chi Minh was going to say, "Hmm, maybe I should subject the Vietnamese people to cruel French, British, and American colonial rule after all?"


As such, all innocent lives lost by means of American military might should be attributed to the side unjustified in fighting the war.

I can see how you might be led to make this statement about such small occurances as the Afghani wedding bombed several years back - a simple mistake that resulted in the tragic loss of innocent life.

I cannot, however, see how you could possibly defend the sadistic murder of entire cities full of innocent people in a terrorist campaign to brutalize a government into bowing into imperialist demands. Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, My Lai, and countless other cities like them were horrifically leveled in order to subjugate the rest of their people into conforming.

I cannot see how you could possibly be so sadistic as to callously dismiss the intentional murder of millions of innocents across the globe as anyone&#39;s fault but the murderer.


Vietnam - Damn stupid war for Americans to be in, since it wasn&#39;t in our nation&#39;s selfish interest. However, in the end, we were trying to prevent totalitarianism from spreading. (much could be debated here, I know)

It is true that much can be debated here. The most important, though, is your assertion that America&#39;s track record has been anything but creating and maintaining totalitarian, fascist states sympathetic to Western business interests with very few exceptions.


As to the others, I don&#39;t know enough about them to comment. However, as I&#39;ve said before, I do not think the US is perfect. We&#39;ve gone into way too many altruistic wars, and not enough selfish ones.

I&#39;m honestly not sure whether to laugh or to vomit. I&#39;d like to laugh because this statement is so blatantly false, but the fact that attitudes like this allow our government to murder millions of people makes me want to hurl. Every single war America has ever been involved in was "selfish" - without exception.

[Stephan]

Dyer,


QUOTE
In a war, the deaths of innocent citizens on both sides is the guilt of the nation that initiated force, i.e. - the nation who was not justified in their offense or even in their defense.


This statement is just wrong on so many levels.

Using your logic, America and only America is at fault for 9/11. The Taliban wouldn&#39;t have been shit if it weren&#39;t for the United States. Also, the U.S. funds Israel, clearly a murderous terrorist state. It all comes back to America.


( I don&#39;t see how your second part, where you use "my logic", even relates, so I will dismiss it for now).

My statement is not false, and you have provided no valid contrary evidence. It is correct because the nation that is legitimately defending itself is justified in defending it&#39;s citizens by whatever means necessary. Here&#39;s a good way to see it. Ask yourself the question, "What does America gain from bombing Dresden?", "What value does America obtain from killing innocent civilians from another country they are at war with?" The answer, NOTHING&#33; Besides ofcourse SECURITY, which, since they did not begin the war, they were already entitled to. By the end of the war, they most likely have lost, not gained anything.

By your rationale, if the US kills 1 innocent civilian, while trying to defend itself against an aggessor, it is a murderer. If this was true, which it isn&#39;t because the guilt lies on the shoulders of those who unjustly started the war, then America might as well have surrendered to Japan and Germany.

As such, I do not let sadistic murderers off the hook. The murderer, the one who caused all of the destruction in lives and property, is the Hitler, the Mussolini, the Stalin, etc...

Now, you have gotten be interested in reading up on AMerican histroy. I have already admitted that I am ignorant of the specific facts in many of America&#39;s foreign policy moves, but I do not plan on taking anyone or anything from this site as a reliable source. (It&#39;s like watching a Michael Moore movie here.) I&#39;ll find out for myself.

The last part, where you wanted to vomit, is simply a matter of semantics (I hope). When I say "selfish", I mean "rational self-interest.&#39;&#39; This means, I only believe America should go to war when it is proper for America to go to war - and it is only proper when America is fighting to protect the individual rights of our country. As such, the Revolutionary War & Civil War were justified, WW2 justified, Gulf War justified, War on terror - (including Iraq and Afghanistan) justified (although they are close to being altruistic wars).

Basically, I don&#39;t believe America should go to war to help "liberate the Iraqis&#33;" or any bullshit like that. So, you can see, I agree with you that many AMerican wars were unjustified: Vietnam, WWI, Korea, etc..

ALso, not all countries are justified in defending themselves. That&#39;s like saying "Nazi germany was morally justified in defending itself from the allied invasion&#33;" It was not, because it was an evil "collective" made up of evil individuals.

Bah, toooo long of a post. I&#39;ll stop now.

[The Feral Underclass]

Swapna and CRR


People are people. Humans are humans, the working class is the working class, regardless of where they are from, regardless of what they think and regardless of what their governments have done around the world. You can not list numbers of how many people have been killed by the US as some justification for the people who died in WTC.

Yes they think their lives are more valubale than the rest of the world, but that dosnt mean they should be killed. The working class have dispicable ideas about the world, from racism to nationalism. We have to change their minds, not select which group is more worthy than another because there views are just too dispicable. How on earth do you expect a revolution to happen if we only select those members of the working class who slightly agree with our politics? This is what capitalism has done to people, it is not their fault. Hating members of our own class is not how you change consciousness or the world. I am shocked that so called revolutionaries can have such reactionary views on issues which have fundamental consequences.

[Alejandro C]

I didn&#39;t really feal anything that day. I remember feeling concerned for my uncle who works in the pentagon. i also remember immediately realizing what had happened. I knew that whoever did that was making a political statement. as dead prez said -&#39;they weren&#39;t aiming at me, not at my house&#39; they weren&#39;t just trying to kill abunch of innocent people either. i realized immediately that all the targets were symbolic -WTC-us economic dominance and exploitation/ pentagon- us military dominance and imperialism/ whitehouse-us imperialistic and oppresive leadership. like they say the enemy of my enemy is my man. however just as i was realizing this i also knew that there would be tremendous backlash against whoever did this. i remember thinking- god i hope this wasn&#39;t Fidel. besides that i was mostly numb to the whole thing. maybe i&#39;ve just been a little desensitized to death. i&#39;ve seen death often and learned about it nearly everyday.

i&#39;ve never had much love for new york and definately wasn&#39;t one of those who put the NYFD stickers everywhere. you know whats fucked up though? recently i heard someone from newyork brag about those attacks. he said someone from the midwest was worried that terrorists would attack them. &#39;no they wouldn&#39;t, you know where you live- NEBRASKA&#39; i think he was trying to be funny, but he said it like he was proud of newyork because they were worthy of getting attacked. but i find that a typical attitude of everysingle person from newyork i&#39;ve ever met.

[EneME]

CS: I still don&#39;t understand what you mean by an unbiased source? You obviously want to hear something from a conservative source, which is biased in itself.
This is one thing I&#39;ve always felt torn about myself, I&#39;ve always been Leftist from the moment I was born into it, but I&#39;ve never been able to talk about it freely because of the backlash in America against Leftists. I don&#39;t see why we all have to justify or PROOVE something to CS when all he wants to do is try to change all of OUR minds or try to trip us up in our own posts so we sound stupid to him. What we believe is something WAY deeper than he can ever understand logically because it&#39;s not something we fuckin picked up from an article one day, it&#39;s something most of us here are willing to DIE for.
CS, what are you trying to prove? Seriously....what&#39;s your point? All I hear is the same diarrhea at the mouth about the same shit over and over...if you wanna make a point MAKE IT. Another thing, we all are individuals with our own minds, and our own sentiments about being a Leftist, it&#39;s so narrow minded and quite dumb to lump us all into a "you guys" when we each have our own minds, stop seeing us as "Commies" but as individuals.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

TAT - what post of mine are you refering to?

[ComradeRobertRiley]

The US army suffered no casualties in Monday&#39;s ambush but reported killing 11 militants.

Local people disputed the US version, saying only one man, a labourer, had been killed and that troops had sprayed the town with indiscriminate fire.


BBC News - US&#39;s indiscriminate fire (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3326499.stm)

[cubist]

Eneme, you hypocrite

start seeing cS as an equal; interlectual and not just another "right wing dinosaur" who is out to make you look stupid and only then can you demand that he doesn&#39;t brand you as a leftie but as an individual.

you are making yourself look stupid CS merely points it out becuase it is a weapon to remove your credibility.

[toastedmonkey]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2003, 04:17 AM
First of all, your list has no connection to the topic of why Islamic terrorists attacked America. (If you&#39;d like to discuss why, and I&#39;ll tell you now it has NOTHING to with the wars America has fought and usually won, start a new thread).
I think if you read the thread or at least the first post, this topic isnt concerning why ismlamic terrorists attacked your holy U&#036; of A.

It is in fact about how we individually felt on the day and how our we think about it now.

The list does have a big connection to do with this topic, both swapna and myself, mentioned the fact that america has killed millions and to prove liked asked to we effortlessly rolled off a few of the millions of deaths america has caused.

I hope you see that it is your thread that is irrelavant

[(*]

Originally posted by toastedmonkey+Dec 17 2003, 04:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (toastedmonkey @ Dec 17 2003, 04:58 PM)
[email protected] 17 2003, 04:17 AM
First of all, your list has no connection to the topic of why Islamic terrorists attacked America. (If you&#39;d like to discuss why, and I&#39;ll tell you now it has NOTHING to with the wars America has fought and usually won, start a new thread).
I think if you read the thread or at least the first post, this topic isnt concerning why ismlamic terrorists attacked your holy U&#036; of A.

It is in fact about how we individually felt on the day and how our we think about it now.

The list does have a big connection to do with this topic, both swapna and myself, mentioned the fact that america has killed millions and to prove liked asked to we effortlessly rolled off a few of the millions of deaths america has caused.

I hope you see that it is your thread that is irrelavant [/b]
He comes from the school of thought that America is the greatest nation on earth, and people hate the US because of her "freedom"

:lol:

[dopediana]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2003, 09:45 PM
Eneme, you hypocrite

start seeing cS as an equal; interlectual and not just another "right wing dinosaur" who is out to make you look stupid and only then can you demand that he doesn&#39;t brand you as a leftie but as an individual.

you are making yourself look stupid CS merely points it out becuase it is a weapon to remove your credibility.
when has eneme ever indicated she doesn&#39;t see him as an individual? she&#39;d never ask for him to see her as one without reciprocating. demeaning her for asking for some respect is not the true leftist spirit and you&#39;re giving him ammo to use against her and it isn&#39;t right. and this isn&#39;t an ideology clash between you two either, so i don&#39;t see a reason to fight.

[Xvall]

I don&#39;t know exactly how to present you with all that much evidence. Serveral of the cases are documented by the world. Vietnam, for example. 2,000,000 people died. Everyone acknowledges that. It&#39;s written in U.S records, and so fourth. Lord Jeffrey Amherst was the general who gave the smallpox blankets to the Natives, by the way, although some may argue that he was more &#39;British&#39; than he was &#39;American&#39;.

[Xvall]

Just commenting on some of Stephan&#39;s stuff.


Vietnam - Damn stupid war for Americans to be in, since it wasn&#39;t in our nation&#39;s selfish interest. However, in the end, we were trying to prevent totalitarianism from spreading. (much could be debated here, I know)

I agree that it wasn&#39;t a war that the American military should have been a part in. Eventually they pulled out anyways, so the whole ordeal was just pointless. However (as you said there is much debate with that situation), South Vietnam was very totalitarian itself. I think it had more to do with it than simply trying to halt the spread of totalitarianism, communism, or what have you.


Afghanistan - Deaths of civilians is the guilt of the Taliban.

I don&#39;t necessarily think so. Many civilians deaths were due to &#39;military miscalculations&#39;. Simply because the Taliban didn&#39;t decide to hand over Bin Laden (Who may not have been in the nation in the first place) doesn&#39;t mean that they&#39;re responsible for the death of every civilian in the nation. If a man in my city blow&#39;s up someone&#39;s house, and I recklessly destroy his block in retaliation, it doesn&#39;t mean I can get off blaming him for all of the collateral damage that took place.


Iraq - The man responsible for the deaths you listed and countless others will hopefully be stoned to death ASAP.

None of those deaths included atrocities commited by Hussein. Those numbers were deaths caused by U.S missiles, bullets, artillery shells, and so fourth. Those deaths also include people who were killed by chemicals used during the First Gulf War. As with above. You can not destroy the block of a bad man, and them blame the deaths of the innocent people you killed on him.


Japan - Hey, they started it. Pearl Harbor. You play with matches, you get burned. We even gave them the chance to surrender before we dropped the nukes.

The Japanese were actually ready to surrender before the nuclear bombs were dropped. According to several U.S Generals who took a part in the Manhattan Project, the bombs were entirely unecessary:

"...the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn&#39;t necessary to hit them with that awful thing. -Eisenhower, Newsweek, 11/11/63

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons." - Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to Presidents Franklin Roosevelt and Harry Truman.

"...the Japanese were prepared to negotiate all the way from February 1945...up to and before the time the atomic bombs were dropped; ...if such leads had been followed up, there would have been no occasion to drop the [atomic] bombs." - Herbert Hoover; quoted by Barton Bernstein in Philip Nobile, ed., Judgment at the Smithsonian, pg. 142

Another thing to keep in mind is that the people who attacked the United States were not the women and children of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. They were the dictators and military personnel in command of the Japanese Government, and they were not the ones who were targeted. Also consider this: It it right to strike down on innocent people simply because their government attacked them first? If Vietnam happened to obtain a nuclar device, would it be alright for them to detonate it in New York city? After all, we attacked them first, did we not? Would not the same &#39;play with fire&#39; rule apply to them.


Germany - Again, all the guilt of the millions who died rests on the shoulders of the Nazi&#39;s, who started the war, and were unjustified in doing so.

This you have a better argument for, as unlike Hiroshima and Nagasaki, civilian cities weren&#39;t generally targeted for annihilation by the American Military. There was Dresden, however. And many people, including myself, can agree that it was overkill.

Just some statements.

[Fidel Castro]

Let me give you a quote from Che himself which I think would be shared by any true revolutionary who shares his devotion to the people:

"Let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality" :rolleyes:

[Stephan]

QUOTE (Stephan @ Dec 17 2003, 04:17 AM)
First of all, your list has no connection to the topic of why Islamic terrorists attacked America. (If you&#39;d like to discuss why, and I&#39;ll tell you now it has NOTHING to with the wars America has fought and usually won, start a new thread).

I think if you read the thread or at least the first post, this topic isnt concerning why ismlamic terrorists attacked your holy U&#036; of A.

Toastedmonkey,

Read what you just posted again...

My parenthesis explicitly indicate that I did not intend to discuss the tangent on this thread any further, and that if it was to be pursued it would be on a different thread.

Never have I seen such incompetence

PS. The fact that the US is not holy is the reason that I love it.

[synthesis]

My statement is not false, and you have provided no valid contrary evidence.

What more evidence do you need? Do the actions of any government, which its people may or may not support, give the defendant the right to murder those innocents living under that government?


It is correct because the nation that is legitimately defending itself is justified in defending it&#39;s citizens by whatever means necessary.

Why? Are dead Afghani civilians somehow worth less than dead American civilians?


Here&#39;s a good way to see it. Ask yourself the question, "What does America gain from bombing Dresden?", "What value does America obtain from killing innocent civilians from another country they are at war with?" The answer, NOTHING&#33;

I already have asked myself that question. There is no uniform answer for why the U.S. kills civilians; there are so many factors involved in, say, Hiroshima, so many areas where the U.S. stood to gain, that one answer is simply not appropriate.


By your rationale, if the US kills 1 innocent civilian, while trying to defend itself against an aggessor, it is a murderer.

I never said that; in fact, I directly refuted that.

I can see how you might be led to make this statement about such small occurances as the Afghani wedding bombed several years back - a simple mistake that resulted in the tragic loss of innocent life.

Notice what I also said.

I cannot, however, see how you could possibly defend the sadistic murder of entire cities full of innocent people in a terrorist campaign to brutalize a government into bowing into imperialist demands. Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, My Lai, and countless other cities like them were horrifically leveled in order to subjugate the rest of their people into conforming.

There is a difference between the accidental murder of civilians, and the sadistic holocausts that America has perpetrated upon people all over the world, particularly Asia.


As such, I do not let sadistic murderers off the hook.

Neither do I. Why do you think I&#39;m trying to educate you about your own government?


Now, you have gotten be interested in reading up on AMerican histroy. I have already admitted that I am ignorant of the specific facts in many of America&#39;s foreign policy moves, but I do not plan on taking anyone or anything from this site as a reliable source. (It&#39;s like watching a Michael Moore movie here.) I&#39;ll find out for myself.

If you are remotely interested in delving into factual text that will make you question every patriotic notion in your body, I would suggest reading Howard Zinn&#39;s A People&#39;s History of the United States of America. You can probably check it out from your local library. Howard Zinn is a respected historian.


The last part, where you wanted to vomit, is simply a matter of semantics (I hope). When I say "selfish", I mean "rational self-interest.&#39;&#39; This means, I only believe America should go to war when it is proper for America to go to war - and it is only proper when America is fighting to protect the individual rights of our country. As such, the Revolutionary War & Civil War were justified, WW2 justified, Gulf War justified, War on terror - (including Iraq and Afghanistan) justified (although they are close to being altruistic wars).

America always acts in rational self-interest. The idea that anything America has ever done is altruistic or not created by material motives is extremely idealistic and, unfortunately, completely ignorant of the issues behind the scenes of every conflict the U.S. has been involved in.


ALso, not all countries are justified in defending themselves. That&#39;s like saying "Nazi germany was morally justified in defending itself from the allied invasion&#33;" It was not, because it was an evil "collective" made up of evil individuals.

I don&#39;t particularly believe in morality, although I may let an &#39;evil&#39; or two slip here and there. In a certain sense, Nazi Germany was justified to defend its existence simply by existing, since all things that exist have a drive to preserve their existence. Do you really think that Hitler would have just smacked himself on the forehead after a stern talking to and said, "Oh, damn&#33; I was wrong about these beliefs that I have been inundated with ever since my life began"? No, any beliefs that are strong enough to propel a man to power are strong enough to propel that man to defend his power.

[Stephan]

Dyer,

Too much context-dropping, evasion, and argument by repetition to respond to. It&#39;s not worth my time.

The fact that you state "I don&#39;t particularly believe in morality" makes any further conversation pointless.

However, thanks for the recommendation on the book. I&#39;ll definitly read it over my holiday break.

Again, I am ceasing argument for primarily two reasons: 1. My lack of complete knowledge on certain American foreign policy. 2. The fact that you and I are fundamentally different in our philosophies. (If don&#39;t understand this PM me.)

[cubist]

2. The loss of one of the greatest monuments ever built to capitalism: The World Trade Centers.

stephan i thought that was the good bit&#33;&#33;

why celebrate capitalism i suppose you want a monument to globalization aswell do you??

[LiquidX]

Actually I wasnt quite shocked. If you ask Deadman he will confirm this story. Me and him are friends and back in 2001, 2 days before the attack, I told him something bad was going to happen. I just knew the states were on too much of a roll, they were going too strong and something was going to bring them down.

We arrived at school a couple days later, and our Tech teacher told us to go on CNN.com and check to see if the rumors of planes hitting the WTC towers were true. At the moment that we confirmed it, Deadman and myself just looked at each other in amazement.

I felt bad for the people and the families, but I felt good that someone actually stood up to the US and didnt let them walk all over everybody.

[redstar2000]

WTC attacked and destroyed&#33; How did you feel?

Didn&#39;t notice--don&#39;t own dummyvision set.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2003, 06:21 AM
Dyer,

Too much context-dropping, evasion, and argument by repetition to respond to. It&#39;s not worth my time.

The fact that you state "I don&#39;t particularly believe in morality" makes any further conversation pointless.

However, thanks for the recommendation on the book. I&#39;ll definitly read it over my holiday break.

Again, I am ceasing argument for primarily two reasons: 1. My lack of complete knowledge on certain American foreign policy. 2. The fact that you and I are fundamentally different in our philosophies. (If don&#39;t understand this PM me.)
My objective has nothing to do with "converting" you to collectivism, or socialism, or communism. It is only to open your eyes to destructive U.S. foreign policy in the hopes that you will realize that horrible actions are being committed by the government you support so unfalteringly.

By the way, what&#39;s wrong with not believing in concepts of "good" and "evil"? They have no place in rational discussion.

[EneME]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2003, 09:45 PM
Eneme, you hypocrite

start seeing cS as an equal; interlectual and not just another "right wing dinosaur" who is out to make you look stupid and only then can you demand that he doesn&#39;t brand you as a leftie but as an individual.

you are making yourself look stupid CS merely points it out becuase it is a weapon to remove your credibility.
Gee funny, I believe my post was directed toward CS....
I do see CS as an equal, I always have since day 1. I understand where he comes from, and the fact that from his life and experiences, he holds more negative sentiments toward "Communism" than others do. I only asked this question to HIM because I have seen his posts and replies, it doesn&#39;t come from stereotyping him or labeling him.....
Funny when I ask CS a question or genuinely want a response, he ignores me.... but others bite my head off...lol wtf? *twilight zone music* gee he&#39;s really convinced me with his silence...hm..

[Danton]

Made no difference to me except diminshed civil liberties and cheap flights.

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2003, 03:42 AM
Let&#39;s give a little run-through of the major American-produced atrocities of the last fifty years or so.

Vietnam: 2,500,000 - 3,500,000 innocent Vietnamese civilians
Cambodia: 1,000,000 - 2,000,000 innocent Cambodian civilians
Korea: 1,000,000 - 3,000,000 innocent Korean civilians
Afghanistan: 750,000 - 1,000,000 innocent Afghani civilians
Indonesia: 500,000 - 1,000,000 innocent Indonesian civilians
Iraq: 1,200,000 - 2,200,000 innocent Iraqi civilians
Japan: 670,000+ innocent Japanese civilians
Germany: 250,000 - 500,000 innocent German civilians
Guatemala: 200,000+ innocent Guatemalan civilians
East Timor: 200,000+ innocent East Timorese civilians
Philippines: 200,000+ innocent Filipino civilians
El Salvador: 75,000+ innocent El Salvadoran civilians
Nicaragua: 13,000+ innocent Nicaraguan civilians
Somalia: 10,000+ innocent Somalian civilians

NEGATIVE on ALL THOSE NUMBERS, SPORT&#33;&#33;&#33; TRY again&#33; YOU READ? NEGATIVE on ALL those RIDICULOUS numbers&#33; Sorry to disappoint you in your frantic search to find the "truth". The authors are as skewed as the numbers&#33; Like I said before SORRY&#33; NO DICE&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Sorry guys...I&#39;ve just had a hellacious 48hour shift of fighting fires and saving lives. Ok, I&#39;m back though. I wasn&#39;t ingnoring/avoiding you.


Originally posted by EneME+Dec 17 2003, 08:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (EneME @ Dec 17 2003, 08:38 AM) CS: I still don&#39;t understand what you mean by an unbiased source? You obviously want to hear something from a conservative source, which is biased in itself.[/b]
What I mean by an UNBIASED source is NOTHING that contains the words, CNN, Fox, Socialist, Peace, Revolution or ANYTHING along those lines that sway to either side&#33;


Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2003, 08:38 AM
I don&#39;t see why we all have to justify or PROOVE something to CS when all he wants to do is try to change all of OUR minds or try to trip us up in our own posts so we sound stupid to him. What we believe is something WAY deeper than he can ever understand logically because it&#39;s not something we fuckin picked up from an article one day, it&#39;s something most of us here are willing to DIE for.
Who the HELL says you HAVE to justify or PROOVE anything to me or ANYONE ELSE here for that matter. I&#39;m trying to LEARN abomut your thoughts and feelings about things&#33; Which is a HELL of a lot more than YOU GUYS trying to learn a DAMNED thing about me or anyone else that doesn&#39;t share your ideology&#33; I thought thats what this goddamned forum was all about&#33;


Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2003, 08:38 AM
CS, what are you trying to prove? Seriously....what&#39;s your point? All I hear is the same diarrhea at the mouth about the same shit over and over...if you wanna make a point MAKE IT.
Again, who says I&#39;&#39;m out to prove a fucking THING?&#33; This is what I mean about YOU GUYS labelling EVERYTHING&#33; Why the HELL does everything have to have a label attached to it?&#33; I ask questions to LEARN.....I don&#39;t HAVE to make a goddamned point all the goddamned TIME&#33;


[email protected] 17 2003, 08:38 AM
Another thing, we all are individuals with our own minds, and our own sentiments about being a Leftist, it&#39;s so narrow minded and quite dumb to lump us all into a "you guys" when we each have our own minds, stop seeing us as "Commies" but as individuals.
So far there have been only a few of you in here that have shown their intelligence and and willingness to debate and share their thoughts WITHOUT some IDIOTIC belief that I&#39;m out to gather super-secret brain-wave information for the CIA on each of you&#33; Grow up&#33;

[Danton]

Who the HELL says you HAVE to justify or PROOVE anything to me or ANYONE ELSE

You did...

.ENOUGH of this BULLSHIT lady&#33; I want you to PROVE to me IN WRITING

I&#39;m trying to LEARN abomut your thoughts and feelings about things&#33; Which is a HELL of a lot more than YOU GUYS trying to learn a DAMNED thing about me or anyone else that doesn&#39;t share your ideology&#33; I thought thats what this goddamned forum was all about&#33;

Your not trying to learn anything, you just bark like an angry little puppy..
Who the fuck would want to learn anything about you?

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 04:23 PM
Who the fuck would want to learn anything about you?
And WHO the fuck asked YOU?&#33;

[Danton]

You did...

Which is a HELL of a lot more than YOU GUYS trying to learn a DAMNED thing about me

I assumed it was a generalization on your part, besides I don&#39;t need an invite...

[swapna]

Castro Sucks,


NEGATIVE on ALL THOSE NUMBERS, SPORT&#33;&#33;&#33; TRY again&#33; YOU READ? NEGATIVE on ALL those RIDICULOUS numbers&#33; Sorry to disappoint you in your frantic search to find the "truth". The authors are as skewed as the numbers&#33; Like I said before SORRY&#33; NO DICE&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

What can someone tell a guy who closes his eyes and refuses to believe what is going on?

Any source would be biased source for guys like you.

Do you think the whole world strongly hates US for no reason?

Do you think the US, which is very much used to lying to its peoplewould publish on internet the list of the crimes it committed?

The US govt doesnt tell its people what it is doing and the US citizens refuse to believe any other source than from the US govt.
As long as US consits of a majority of the people like you, I think I am justified at being happy at the WTC attacks.

Best of luck to the Arabs.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

here here swapna, CRR in agreement

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Have you heared the latest bullshit about the WTC?

On bbc:

BBC News - WTC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3333955.stm)


Their going to replace it with "The Freedom Tower"

A new design for the building complex to replace the World Trade Center has been unveiled in New York.
New York Governor George Pataki said the cornerstone of the design, the Freedom Tower, would be a "soaring tribute" to the "heroes we lost".

The design follows months of feuding between the winner of the original design competition and the leaseholder of the WTC site.

Nearly 3,000 people died in the 11 September 2001 attacks on the US.

The design for the 16-acre site is a compromise between architects Daniel Libeskind - who won the competition - and David Childs, who was appointed by the leaseholder of the WTC, controversial property developer Larry Silverstein.

&#39;New icon&#39;

At the heart of the new design is the Freedom Tower which the architects said would be the world&#39;s tallest building.

As originally proposed by Mr Libeskind, it will be 1776 feet (541.4 metres) tall, to commemorate the date of the declaration of independence from Britain.


Full story click the link

[cubist]

eneme

i know you asked him, i don&#39;t mean to bite your head off but to me it seems no one seems to listen to CS and no one accepts him as the smart tho politically deluded guy he actually is

[EneME]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 08:27 PM
eneme

i know you asked him, i don&#39;t mean to bite your head off but to me it seems no one seems to listen to CS and no one accepts him as the smart tho politically deluded guy he actually is
In previous threads I have asked him legit questions to learn about him and his thoughts etc. But he choses to ignore any kind of calm discussion. He only responded to the comment I made on this thread because I made it purposly laced with a little anger so he could actually respond, otherswise he won&#39;t. This is about the 4th time I&#39;ve tried to get a discussion going with him, and this is the first time he&#39;s responded...and I have yet to learn anything....

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by swapna+Dec 19 2003, 07:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (swapna @ Dec 19 2003, 07:04 PM) What can someone tell a guy who closes his eyes and refuses to believe what is going on?[/b]

Funny, I was just about to ask YOU the same question


[email protected] 19 2003, 07:04 PM
Any source would be biased source for guys like you.
Seems to be the trend with YOU guys as well..

[CASTRO_SUCKS]

Originally posted by EneME+Dec 19 2003, 10:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (EneME @ Dec 19 2003, 10:04 PM) But he choses to ignore any kind of calm discussion......[/b]
If I remember correctly, I CHOSE to ignore for your initial treatment when I first got here.



[email protected] 19 2003, 10:04 PM
This is about the 4th time I&#39;ve tried to get a discussion going with him, and this is the first time he&#39;s responded...and I have yet to learn anything....
If you&#39;re SERIOUS about debating WITH AN OPEN MIND, then I&#39;ll answer ANYTHING you ask. How&#39;s THAT for a deal?&#33;

[synthesis]

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Dec 19 2003, 03:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Dec 19 2003, 03:30 PM)
[email protected] 17 2003, 03:42 AM
Let&#39;s give a little run-through of the major American-produced atrocities of the last fifty years or so.

Vietnam: 2,500,000 - 3,500,000 innocent Vietnamese civilians
Cambodia: 1,000,000 - 2,000,000 innocent Cambodian civilians
Korea: 1,000,000 - 3,000,000 innocent Korean civilians
Afghanistan: 750,000 - 1,000,000 innocent Afghani civilians
Indonesia: 500,000 - 1,000,000 innocent Indonesian civilians
Iraq: 1,200,000 - 2,200,000 innocent Iraqi civilians
Japan: 670,000+ innocent Japanese civilians
Germany: 250,000 - 500,000 innocent German civilians
Guatemala: 200,000+ innocent Guatemalan civilians
East Timor: 200,000+ innocent East Timorese civilians
Philippines: 200,000+ innocent Filipino civilians
El Salvador: 75,000+ innocent El Salvadoran civilians
Nicaragua: 13,000+ innocent Nicaraguan civilians
Somalia: 10,000+ innocent Somalian civilians

NEGATIVE on ALL THOSE NUMBERS, SPORT&#33;&#33;&#33; TRY again&#33; YOU READ? NEGATIVE on ALL those RIDICULOUS numbers&#33; Sorry to disappoint you in your frantic search to find the "truth". The authors are as skewed as the numbers&#33; Like I said before SORRY&#33; NO DICE&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; [/b]
You&#39;re fucking hilarious. Why don&#39;t you pull the blinds out from over your eyes?

The fact of the matter is that you are so comfortably ensconced in your little capitalist world that you will not and can not listen to any degree of factual information presented to you telling you just how fucking sadistic your government is.

William Blum is a respected author, as is Noam Chomsky. The "NUMBERS" are fine, pal.

If you want to read the books, I&#39;ll happily give you some names. But clearly, you have not come here to debate or to learn, but only to yell and swear at us. Newsflash, asshole, you aren&#39;t going to win any souls with your ranting and denial of logic and reason.

All you&#39;re doing is embarrassing yourself. You&#39;re not even funny about it. You deserve to be banned.

[swapna]

CS,
I should say you are the biggest hypocrite I have ever seen in my life.

[EneME]

Originally posted by CASTRO_SUCKS+Dec 20 2003, 12:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CASTRO_SUCKS @ Dec 20 2003, 12:00 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 10:04 PM
But he choses to ignore any kind of calm discussion......
If I remember correctly, I CHOSE to ignore for your initial treatment when I first got here.



[email protected] 19 2003, 10:04 PM
This is about the 4th time I&#39;ve tried to get a discussion going with him, and this is the first time he&#39;s responded...and I have yet to learn anything....
If you&#39;re SERIOUS about debating WITH AN OPEN MIND, then I&#39;ll answer ANYTHING you ask. How&#39;s THAT for a deal?&#33; [/b]
LOL omg as if I&#39;ve ever insulted you in anyway...for you, having an open mind is accepting Conservative thought, but we&#39;re LEFTISTS. I&#39;ll gladly debate with you with an open mind, you&#39;re definently welcomed to PM me or message me in any other way. (AIM/ICQ/MSN/EMAIL) But, I know you won&#39;t because I know you&#39;re not here to learn anything. You&#39;re the one who gets excited and obviously upset...I don&#39;t see how you see us as the bad guys....
btw: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/justice/elsalvador.html (is that unbiased for u?)
Just one source of one country for you...
"During the civil war... the military leadership often chose not to distinguish between... civilian and soldier. Consequently, the nation suffered 75,000 deaths and disappearances, most at the hands of government-backed forces. Among the thousands of dead were four American churchwomen who were abducted, raped, and murdered in late 1980.
Meanwhile, the government of the United States was supplying the Salvadoran regime with hundreds of millions of dollars per year...Throughout the terms of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush, the U.S. Congress debated human rights and other issues, but never suspended aid to El Salvador."