Daniel Tosh sinks to a new level of sexist scum [Archive]

Art Vandelay

12th July 2012, 06:46

Not that I condone this behavior or anything but why was this woman in the club in the first place if she knew anything about how offensive this guy is?

I agree there is nothing funny about rape among the other things he jokes about but I think before we go wild calling this man a reactionary scumbag and a rape advocate who should be hurled off a 30 story building we should at the very least take a moment to achnolage the fact that his material does not condone or show such acts in a positive light, the racism, sexism ect. is a whole other story however but if this says anything it's a statement about how so many people have allowed their sense of decency to be eroded to the point at which he is the single biggest comedian in the world right now.

Wouldn't it of made more sense for this woman to try to educate people on why it's wrong to laugh at this kind of thing? Causing a disturbance and makeing yourself subject to fear and humiliation was a foolish way of going about this whole issue, no matter how angry she was about it leaving probably would of been best.

Yeah you're right, I'm sure she was thinking completely level headed and not stunned at the fact that some one suggested it would be funny if 5 men raped her. :confused:

That is messed up; but i don't know if i like the statement threatened her with rape, its not like it was an actual threat, just an extremely twisted and hurtful joke. But then again I have never been in a situation like that, so i have no idea how damaging that would be.

Crux

12th July 2012, 06:57

[Daniel Tosh] suggested it would be funny if 5 men raped her.
I just want to be clear here. And he did this as a way to intimidate her and make her leave the room. Don't give me that "he's a comedian" apologist bullshit.

Comrade Samuel

12th July 2012, 06:58

Yeah you're right, I'm sure she was thinking completely level headed and not stunned at the fact that some one suggested it would be funny if 5 men raped her. :confused:

That is messed up; but i don't know if i like the statement threatened her with rape, its not like it was an actual threat, just an extremely twisted and hurtful joke. But then again I have never been in a situation like that, so i have no idea how damaging that would be.

Daniel Tosh, offensive jokester extraordinaire, crossed the line a few days ago in a comedy club.During a skit in which he made jokes about rape, a young woman stood up in protest of the offensive jokes.In response, Daniel Tosh “joked” about how “funny” it would be if she were to be raped by “like five guys” right then. His jokes continued and the laughter in the club grew so loud that the young woman had to flee in fear.

I ment instead of makeing a scene of everything because the material PRIOR to Tosh addressing this woman directly offended her. she simply could of left rather than singling her self out for him to say such things. It's perfectly understandable to be mad at him but nobody was forceing her to sit there and listen to it.

Also why is "joked" in quotations? It's not that the joke wasn't tasteless, offensive or wrong but I seriously doubt Tosh sincerely thought that if she was raped it would be funny.

Crux

12th July 2012, 07:11

I ment instead of makeing a scene of everything because the material PRIOR to Tosh addressing this woman directly offended her. she simply could of left rather than singling her self out for him to say such things. It's perfectly understandable to be mad at him but nobody was forceing her to sit there and listen to it.

Also why is "joked" in quotations? It's not that the joke wasn't tasteless, offensive or wrong but I seriously doubt Tosh sincerely thought that if she was raped it would be funny.
Why do you have so much sympathy for this guy? Given his response, apparently she was completely right to call him out. There is nothing "funny" or "edgy" about perpetuating rape culture. And in this instance he used it as way to intimidate her into leaving the room. You shouldn't be making any excuses for him.

#FF0000

12th July 2012, 07:14

yo

i actually can't find any room to begin to care about this. daniel tosh ain't funny but this indignation over it, I feel, is sort of like useless and dumb. it looks more like people keeping up appearances than anything else. there are infinitely more important things to worry about than a comedian saying the worst thing he can think of because of a heckler

Comrade Samuel

12th July 2012, 07:24

Why do you have so much sympathy for this guy? Given his response, apparently she was completely right to call him out. There is nothing "funny" or "edgy" about perpetuating rape culture. And in this instance he used it as way to intimidate her into leaving the room. You shouldn't be making any excuses for him.

I am in no way making excuses for this guy, you are misinterperateing me entirely. I'm just trying to say that she could have left or at the very least not put herself into that terrible situation. I have no sympathy for Tosh but if the woman took anything from what he had said before the incident she would have know it was coming.

It took a good deal of bravery to stand up and say it was wrong, that much is not being questioned but there are smarter ways to deal with it than heckling and it should of been obvious that he would not handle it maturely or respectfully.

Ele'ill

12th July 2012, 07:26

there are infinitely more important things to worry about than a comedian saying the worst thing he can think of because of a heckler

What about groups of people at school, workplace, day to day, close partners with friends etc.. I mean it's within these situations where rape culture exists I don't know why they're always pushed aside because of 'more important things'.

Also Daniel Tosh is a scum bag loser and his show sucks no more talking about this part of it.

#FF0000

12th July 2012, 07:27

What about groups of people at school, workplace, day to day, close partners with friends etc.. I mean it's within these situations where rape culture exists I don't know why they're always pushed aside because of 'more important things'.

yo yes talk about this part of it and no more "abloo bloo bloo i h8 daniel tosh more than everyone else no i hate daniel tosh more"

edit: i'm reminded of what i said myself awhile back about how it's hella easy to always say "it's only one thing" when the problem is made up of a lot of individual things. Or something like that.

#FF0000

12th July 2012, 07:30

I am in no way making excuses for this guy, you are misinterperateing me entirely. I'm just trying to say that she could have left or at the very least not put herself into that terrible situation. I have no sympathy for Tosh but if the woman took anything from what he had said before the incident she would have know it was coming.

It took a good deal of bravery to stand up and say it was wrong, that much is not being questioned but there are smarter ways to deal with it than heckling and it should of been obvious that he would not handle it maturely or respectfully.

Man no daniel tosh said some dumb shit and that is his fault and nobody else's. come on.

Ele'ill

12th July 2012, 07:41

Not that I condone this behavior or anything but why was this woman in the club in the first place if she knew anything about how offensive this guy is?

Maybe she was unfamiliar with him and had just heard a lot about him. Maybe she tagged along with friends. Maybe she liked all of his other stuff but wasn't expecting something to wound her like this particular routine. It doesn't matter.

Wouldn't it of made more sense for this woman to try to educate people on why it's wrong to laugh at this kind of thing? Causing a disturbance and makeing yourself subject to fear and humiliation was a foolish way of going about this whole issue, no matter how angry she was about it leaving probably would of been best.

It makes more sense to you but perhaps the situation doesn't resonate with you in the same way it did her.

Â¿Que?

12th July 2012, 08:00

I'm not going to lie. When his show first came out I thought it was funny. But after a while, either his act got more racist, homophobic, sexist, ableist etc or I just started noticing, to the point where I just couldn't watch it any more. That, and all the disgusting clips too.

I think he sucks, and being a comedy central viewer, wouldn't mind if that slot he fills every week was replaced with, oh I don't know, maybe Jon Benjamin has a Van. So I fully support this campaign, basically on strictly pragmatic terms.

At the moment, I have nothing to say about the social impact of this situation and others like it.

Sea

13th July 2012, 05:16

I'm really not inclined to give a porcupine's prickly ass in either direction here.

Considering this guy makes $6.5M (http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-celebrities/daniel-tosh-net-worth/) per year, he's a joker in only the negative sense of the term.

Ostrinski

13th July 2012, 05:31

What's also disgusting here is all the comedians sticking up for him.

Ostrinski

13th July 2012, 05:39

I think there's definitely an assumed superiority when comedians soar over to the defense of a certain comedian under controversy. As if, "yeah, we the comedians have decided that you should not get offended over shock humor."

How about no, asshole, if you say or apologize for shit like this, we'll throw you off the side of the earth.

Susurrus

13th July 2012, 05:57

His show is bad and he should feel bad.

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

13th July 2012, 06:26

I cannot get angry at him. If you go to see Daniel Tosh, you should know he pushes the limit. I don't care if you think it's too sexist, racist, whatever, you should know that he will make jokes about it.

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

13th July 2012, 10:07

There's also speculation as to what he said. The club owner said he heard Daniel say, "I bet she was raped by 5 guys".

RedAnarchist

13th July 2012, 10:20

There's also speculation as to what he said. The club owner said he heard Daniel say, "I bet she was raped by 5 guys".

It's still a rape joke no matter which way he said it. He's making light of a terrible ordeal that the heckler, as a woman, is much more at risk of experiencing than he, a man, is.

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

13th July 2012, 11:00

What a rat. Signed the petition.

Positivist

13th July 2012, 12:17

Who cares? hes a comedian its what he does.. People take things too seriously..life is too short ranting about stupid things like that..people are people you just gotta accept them for who they are

Yes most people take sexism and rape seriously, do you have a problem with this?

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

13th July 2012, 13:05

I think a better response than a petition is to make Mr Tosh the butt of an especially cruel joke, then call him out on it if he has the temerity to complain about it.

Being a hypocrite majorly compounds the offense of being a crap comedian. I wonder if he has any integrity?

Revolution starts with U

13th July 2012, 17:02

Spoiled rich kid who's comedy was only ever about its shock value says a thing shocking, and people are shocked...

Us sitting here talking about it is giving him exactly what he wants; attention, because he's a spoiled rich kid. Sign the petition, and then let's talk about something more productive, like how rape culture is created in the first place. :thumbup1:

DasFapital

13th July 2012, 17:25

Tosh reminds me of the shit head jocks and douche bags in my college dorm or many guys I knew in high school, trying to pathetically hide their misogyny behind the guise of "comedy" except that they suck ass at comedy.

Tim Cornelis

13th July 2012, 17:34

What are y'all talking about? I find hind him hilarious (not talking about the incident here).

The Machine

13th July 2012, 17:49

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

13th July 2012, 17:54

Maybe she was unfamiliar with him and had just heard a lot about him. Maybe she tagged along with friends. Maybe she liked all of his other stuff but wasn't expecting something to wound her like this particular routine. It doesn't matter.

It makes more sense to you but perhaps the situation doesn't resonate with you in the same way it did her.

It doesn't matter if she didn't know his work. If I'm a comedian, whos whole routine is about being as offensive as possible, and the fans know that's it's for fun, and someone who doesn't know that sees me and gets offended, why should I be blamed?

Drosophila

13th July 2012, 17:54

thats what the fuck happens when you heckle a comedian

and lets be real i doubt none of you fuckers would be this indignant if he made the exact same joke at a man, even though more men are raped in america than women

what: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

If you're being sarcastic then sorry, but if you're being serious then fuck you.

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

13th July 2012, 17:58

It's still a rape joke no matter which way he said it. He's making light of a terrible ordeal that the heckler, as a woman, is much more at risk of experiencing than he, a man, is.

I'm saying there's a possibility he might have said something less. It's far less mean to say, I bet she was raped. And I'm guessing he did say, it would be funny if she was raped, considering he apologized, but it's still something to consider.

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

13th July 2012, 18:02

This is a pretty good response to the event.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eCnmeaoGMA

Ostrinski

13th July 2012, 18:31

Actually, TheAmazingAtheist can get thrown into a jet engine

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

13th July 2012, 18:34

Actually, TheAmazingAtheist can get thrown into a jet engine

He still has a good point.

#FF0000

13th July 2012, 18:39

nah basically whenever TAA says anything about feminism he is wrong, because he goes and finds the most ridiculous, insane people to slap the title on themselves and acts like they are feminism even though he's not a dumb guy and i am sure he knows what feminism is

Tim Cornelis

13th July 2012, 18:40

He still has a good point.

Does he? I didn't watch the video, but one video was about proving feminism wrong by pointing to cases where men are discriminated against on the basis of their gender, but this discrimination is in fact based on patriarchal sentiment.

EDIT:

I bet that if a loved one of TJ was raped, or he himself, and someone would make a joke about it, he would punch that person in the face as well. See if the logic "it's just a joke, it's not serious, you can't punch someone in the face just because they said something you don't like."

Ostrinski

13th July 2012, 18:41

Humanity cannot advance until TAA is skewered on the bar-b in town square

#FF0000

13th July 2012, 18:44

*until all youtube personalities are skewered on the bar-b in town square.

But hey I want to point out that this is on the second page and is still a useless thread.

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

13th July 2012, 18:45

I don't agree with everything he says. He has a video against vegetarians, and I don't agree with it, but I can still get behind his other views. In this one, he defends real feminists in a way.

#FF0000

13th July 2012, 18:49

there are infinitely more interesting things to talk about than The Amazing Fucking Atheist so can we save it for another dumb thread

Os Cangaceiros

13th July 2012, 18:53

what: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

If you're being sarcastic then sorry, but if you're being serious then fuck you.

In January, prodded in part by outrage over a series of articles in the New York Review of Books, the Justice Department finally released an estimate of the prevalence of sexual abuse in penitentiaries. The reliance on filed complaints appeared to understate the problem. For 2008, for example, the government had previously tallied 935 confirmed instances of sexual abuse. After asking around, and performing some calculations, the Justice Department came up with a new number: 216,000. That’s 216,000 victims, not instances. These victims are often assaulted multiple times over the course of the year. The Justice Department now seems to be saying that prison rape accounted for the majority of all rapes committed in the US in 2008, likely making the United States the first country in the history of the world to count more rapes for men than for women.

from n+1 magazine.

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

13th July 2012, 19:01

Drosophila

13th July 2012, 19:10

from n+1 magazine.

Prisons are a different story. The likelihood is obviously much higher, and the gender question is thrown out the window. Rape is also common in female prisons.

That of course doesn't change the first part of his shitty post.

A joke about rape is different than a joke about someone who was raped.

What does that even mean?

bcbm

13th July 2012, 19:12

this pretty much nails it (http://austin.culturemap.com/newsdetail/07-12-12-14-37-the-best-response-weve-heard-to-daniel-toshs-misquoted-rape-jokes/) in my opinion. nice to see we still have a nice crop of knuckle draggers on the board though, i figured this story would find them crawling out of their caves

I think before we go wild calling this man a reactionary scumbag and a rape advocate who should be hurled off a 30 story building we should at the very least take a moment to achnolage the fact that his material does not condone or show such acts in a positive light

um pretty sure saying 'rape jokes are always funny' and joking about how 'it would be funny if five guys raped her right now' is not very far from condoning or showing such acts in a positive light. i think 'reactionary (ugh stop using this word) scumbag' would be putting it nicely.

Causing a disturbance and makeing yourself subject to fear and humiliation was a foolish way of going about this whole issue

i think it is telling that in lots of events like this the response is basically 'she should have kept her mouth shut, there is a better way to do this'

Who cares? hes a comedian its what he does..

no, comedians do things that are funny.

People take things too seriously..life is too short ranting about stupid things like that..people are people you just gotta accept them for who they are

stupid things like perpetuating rape culture, right. accept people for who they are, even if they are rapists.

and lets be real i doubt none of you fuckers would be this indignant if he made the exact same joke at a man, even though more men are raped in america than women

yeah most men dont get scared being alone on the street at night for fear of rape or can reasonably expect someone they know to sexually assault or rape them, so its kind of a whole different thing isn't it?

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

13th July 2012, 19:16

Prisons are a different story. The likelihood is obviously much higher, and the gender question is thrown out the window. Rape is also common in female prisons.

That of course doesn't change the first part of his shitty post.

What does that even mean?

Ok, maybe that was a stupid point. Forget that.

The Machine

13th July 2012, 19:21

yeah most men dont get scared being alone on the street at night for fear of rape or can reasonably expect someone they know to sexually assault or rape them, so its kind of a whole different thing isn't it?

i guess, but statistically speaking it's as much of, if not more of a problem than male on female rape. you want to see a real, tangible, rape culture, go to prison.

That of course doesn't change the first part of his shitty post.

If you don't want people to say mean things to you, don't yell at them when they're trying to do their job.

The Machine

13th July 2012, 19:25

Â¿Que?

13th July 2012, 19:25

Prisons are a different story. The likelihood is obviously much higher, and the gender question is thrown out the window. Rape is also common in female prisons.

I actually looked at the actual study that article mentions, when it was posted on reddit a while back. The gender question is only thrown out when you read these articles. The actual study did look at both male and female incarceration. And guess what? The fact is, women are still more likely to be sexually assaulted while incarcerated, although the actual number of sexual assaults is lower. This is, no doubt, due to the fact that there are less women overall who are incarcerated.

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

13th July 2012, 19:26

Does he? I didn't watch the video, but one video was about proving feminism wrong by pointing to cases where men are discriminated against on the basis of their gender, but this discrimination is in fact based on patriarchal sentiment.

EDIT:

I bet that if a loved one of TJ was raped, or he himself, and someone would make a joke about it, he would punch that person in the face as well. See if the logic "it's just a joke, it's not serious, you can't punch someone in the face just because they said something you don't like."

I have a close friend who was raped, and I'm not upset by this. I also have friends who are Jewish, if someone makes a Holocaust joke, I don't punch them in the face. My brother and uncle are gay, I laugh when people make gay jokes. I have female friends, friends of different ethnicities, and I don't get angry when people make sexist and racist jokes. Jokes can offend and be funny at the same time.

#FF0000

13th July 2012, 19:31

people on here have an unhealthy obsession with rape and "rape culture", partly due to generally shitty attitudes about sex that are prevalent in western culture and a patronizing and paternalistic view of women

nah i just think it's extremely distressing how sexual assault in general is so prevalent in the US particularly and I think this is how most people around here feel.

The Machine

13th July 2012, 19:36

i mean obviously its fucked up and anyone with half a brain knows rape is a significant problem but getting worked up about rape jokes or w/e is dumb, as is acting as though it's only a women's issue

Drosophila

13th July 2012, 19:36

i guess, but statistically speaking it's as much of, if not more of a problem than male on female rape. you want to see a real, tangible, rape culture, go to prison.

Again, it's not a question of gender in prison. There are no women in a male prison (though there are men in female prisons - guards (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/22/alabama-womens-prison-sexual-abuse_n_1537623.html).)

If you don't want people to say mean things to you, don't yell at them when they're trying to do their job.Oh come on. It's not his job to make rape jokes. The guy is sitting on millions of dollars. He doesn't need to do this kind of shit to put food on the table.

bcbm

13th July 2012, 19:39

i guess, but statistically speaking it's as much of, if not more of a problem than male on female rape. you want to see a real, tangible, rape culture, go to prison.

it is more of a problem. in prison. and that has a lot to do with our horrible prison system, class inequality, even patriarchal culture but is not really relevant to what is being discussed here, in fact it is just being used to divert attention from something (which is why you have to say 'i guess but statistically speaking') that is a very real issue: the extremely high prevalence of male on female sexual assault and rape.

If you don't want people to say mean things to you, don't yell at them when they're trying to do their job.

if someone yelled at me while i was doing my job and i said it would be funny if five people raped them i would be fired immediately, actually. i understand he is a 'comedian' and 'edgy' but actually he just comes off like a moron and while i wouldn't expect a better response from him i still think it is acceptable to point out how fucked up the whole thing is.

people on here have an unhealthy obsession with rape and "rape culture", partly due to generally shitty attitudes about sex that are prevalent in western culture and a patronizing and paternalistic view of women

my attitude about sex is perfectly healthy, however i do have a shitty attitude about sexual assault and rape and the fact that these things occur with alarming frequency in our culture and, gee, maybe it is worth doing something about and supporting victims and patronizing and paternalistic things like that

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

13th July 2012, 19:57

I have a close friend who was raped, and I'm not upset by this. I also have friends who are Jewish, if someone makes a Holocaust joke, I don't punch them in the face. My brother and uncle are gay, I laugh when people make gay jokes. I have female friends, friends of different ethnicities, and I don't get angry when people make sexist and racist jokes. Jokes can offend and be funny at the same time.

So basically, you think holocaust,rape,sexist and racist-jokes are an ok thing to do?

Wow, how stupid people like you are. :rolleyes:

Ostrinski

13th July 2012, 20:03

I have a close friend who was raped, and I'm not upset by this. I also have friends who are Jewish, if someone makes a Holocaust joke, I don't punch them in the face. My brother and uncle are gay, I laugh when people make gay jokes. I have female friends, friends of different ethnicities, and I don't get angry when people make sexist and racist jokes. Jokes can offend and be funny at the same time.And so you assume superiority with regard to your attitude toward such jokes? Just because you aren't offended by them doesn't mean they aren't offensive.

Quail

13th July 2012, 22:43

people on here have an unhealthy obsession with rape and "rape culture", partly due to generally shitty attitudes about sex that are prevalent in western culture and a patronizing and paternalistic view of women
I'm a woman, and I don't think it's patronising that people are against trivialising rape. It's possible to be against rape jokes without seeing women as weak victims that need to be protected.

I have a close friend who was raped, and I'm not upset by this. I also have friends who are Jewish, if someone makes a Holocaust joke, I don't punch them in the face. My brother and uncle are gay, I laugh when people make gay jokes. I have female friends, friends of different ethnicities, and I don't get angry when people make sexist and racist jokes. Jokes can offend and be funny at the same time.
Okay, so perpetuating discriminatory attitudes is an okay thing to do? Maybe the reason why you don't get angry about these things is that you're not directly affected by them. Perhaps if you were the one who had been raped you might feel differently.

i mean obviously its fucked up and anyone with half a brain knows rape is a significant problem but getting worked up about rape jokes or w/e is dumb, as is acting as though it's only a women's issue
It's not dumb to get worked up about rape jokes. It's unacceptable to make jokes, and in doing so trivialise, something which is so devastating.

It's not only a women's issue - nobody said that - but at the same time there is a tendency to blame a woman for being raped ("she was drunk," "she was wearing revealing clothing," etc), or people might not believe her. It's fucking disgusting that not only do people have the trauma associated with the rape, but then they have to fear being blamed or not being believed.

Os Cangaceiros

13th July 2012, 23:23

Prisons are a different story. The likelihood is obviously much higher, and the gender question is thrown out the window. Rape is also common in female prisons.

That of course doesn't change the first part of his shitty post.

*shrug* I don't really have much of a strong opinion on this subject one way or another (other than, y'know, rape being awful and all that), that study is probably where he got his opinion from though.

Ravachol

14th July 2012, 00:05

Ugh, even apart from the sexism (and often outright racism) he should be shot through the neck for his 'humor'. I never even smiled once at his jokes. The only TV I watch (like 3 hours a week, tops) is comedy central and when his show is on this is my face

http://www.reactionface.info/sites/default/files/imagecache/Node_Page/images/127095609349.jpg

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

14th July 2012, 00:18

So basically, you think holocaust,rape,sexist and racist-jokes are an ok thing to do?

Wow, how stupid people like you are. :rolleyes:

I'm not stupid. It exists. So fucking what? Society isn't perfect, and this kind of stuff will happen. You're stupid because you think this is something to care about. If people stopped making jokes about this, it would be great. But it's not, so this whole thing is ridiculous.

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

14th July 2012, 00:23

[QUOTE=Quail;2479585]I'm a woman, and I don't think it's patronising that people are against trivialising rape. It's possible to be against rape jokes without seeing women as weak victims that need to be protected.

Okay, so perpetuating discriminatory attitudes is an okay thing to do? Maybe the reason why you don't get angry about these things is that you're not directly affected by them. Perhaps if you were the one who had been raped you might feel differently.

You think you know what I felt? You think I was just laughing off that someone I care about was raped?

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

14th July 2012, 00:26

And so you assume superiority with regard to your attitude toward such jokes? Just because you aren't offended by them doesn't mean they aren't offensive.

What? I didn't say anything like that.

Halleluhwah

14th July 2012, 00:39

Tarring all "hecklers" with the same brush is ridiculous. As though condemning Tosh for perpetuating rape culture is no different from being drunk and obnoxious at a show. :rolleyes:

Any 'leftist,' or hell, any decent human being, should recognize that trivializing something as prevalent, painful, and already-disregarded as rape is a problem, and not only did he do that at the show, but he intentionally created an environment where a woman had to fear for her safety as a woman. Whether or not he 'threatened her with rape' is a semantic argument, but she obviously felt intimidated and vulnerable.

bad ideas actualised by alcohol

14th July 2012, 00:45

I'm not stupid. It exists. So fucking what? Society isn't perfect, and this kind of stuff will happen. You're stupid because you think this is something to care about. If people stopped making jokes about this, it would be great. But it's not, so this whole thing is ridiculous.

So because society isn't perfect you can laugh at homophobic/sexist/holocaust/rape jokes? Fuck off!
And yes this is something to care about, if you accept sexism, rape jokes etc. you are not a socialist.

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

14th July 2012, 00:53

So because society isn't perfect you can laugh at homophobic/sexist/holocaust/rape jokes? Fuck off!
And yes this is something to care about, if you accept sexism, rape jokes etc. you are not a socialist.

I don't accept racism or sexism or homophobia at all. And I'm not laughing at rape either. The idea behind this humor is that we're taking dark subject matter and learning to get through it. Humor helps some people.

Â¿Que?

14th July 2012, 00:54

We should tread lightly on this topic, particularly when bringing up personal experiences. Chances are, just about everyone on this forum knows someone who has been sexually assaulted, if not themselves. Some people might not realize this, because people who have been sexually assaulted don't exactly feel comfortable advertising that fact, and furthermore, might feel less comfortable people speaking on their behalf about it. I think this is what MZA is trying to say, although I don't exactly agree with their conclusions.

This is a very complicated issue. Yes, I'm sure most people on here support freedom of speech and would agree that there is possible humor even in the worst of topics.

The problem I see is that all too often, comedians take the short cut, and audiences simply ingest this crap for lack of a real imagination and humor. More often than not, there is no substance in this humor. There is no clever punchline or twist at the end. The humor is simply because it shocks and offends, not in spite of it. It has become more about social control and manipulating opinion.

Right from the textbook of social control really:

April 4th, 1984. Last night to the flicks. All war films. One very good one of a ship full of refugees being bombed somewhere in the Mediterranean. Audience much amused by shots of a great huge fat man trying to swim away with a helicopter after him, first you saw him wallowing along in the water like a porpoise, then you saw him through the helicopters gunsights, then he was full of holes and the sea round him turned pink and he sank as suddenly as though the holes had let in the water, audience shouting with laughter when he sank. then you saw a lifeboat full of children with a helicopter hovering over it. there was a middle-aged woman might have been a jewess sitting up in the bow with a little boy about three years old in her arms. little boy screaming with fright and hiding his head between her breasts as if he was trying to burrow right into her and the woman putting her arms round him and comforting him although she was blue with fright herself, all the time covering him up as much as possible as if she thought her arms could keep the bullets off him. then the helicopter planted a 20 kilo bomb in among them terrific flash and the boat went all to matchwood. then there was a wonderful shot of a child's arm going up up up right up into the air a helicopter with a camera in its nose must have followed it up and there was a lot of applause from the party seats but a woman down in the prole part of the house suddenly started kicking up a fuss and shouting they didnt oughter of showed it not in front of kids they didnt it aint right not in front of kids it aint until the police turned her turned her out i dont suppose anything happened to her nobody cares what the proles say typical prole reaction they never

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

14th July 2012, 01:08

Ostrinski

14th July 2012, 01:16

What? I didn't say anything like that.You used your own narrative and applied it to the universal point you were trying to make.

Ele'ill

14th July 2012, 02:39

A good point. I think that's what I meant.

You think?

Ocean Seal

14th July 2012, 02:47

How is he sexist? his show is alright but it isnt the best..its no chapelles show but it isnt sexist..
Telling a woman that it would be funny if 5 guys raped her is pretty much sexism taken to an extreme.

RRRevolution

14th July 2012, 03:50

Daniel Tosh is clearly sexist. you can get that from his show so easily, this extreme example only makes it more obvious. It's hard to believe people apologize for him.

but I have a question to ask to people who say nobody can ever joke about rape in any context.

have you ever made a joking reference to killing somebody? the families of murder victims feel pain over their murders. if you consider making any joke about rape to be trivializing to the actual act of rape, then do you consider jokes about murder trivializing to the act of murder and offensive to the families of murder victims?

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

14th July 2012, 04:09

You think?

I wasn't exactly sure what he meant. He said that's what he thought I was saying, and I said, I'm pretty sure you're right. Damn, this is really hard to explain.

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

14th July 2012, 04:10

You used your own narrative and applied it to the universal point you were trying to make.

Ok, well I didn't mean that.

Crux

14th July 2012, 16:36

Saw this response on another forum:

Different sides of a story

There's been a lot of buzz about Daniel Tosh's comments at the Laugh Factory recently. I myself posted the original blog post, being absolutely incensed at the idea that someone would make a joke like that.

(Original blog says "Wouldn’t it be funny if that girl got raped by like, 5 guys right now? Like right now? What if a bunch of guys just raped her…?" Blog defending Tosh says he said "Sounds like she has been raped by five guys.")

There's been a lot of back and forth especially among some of my friends who work as comedians and in the improv scene in Seattle. And after some time, I'd like to share my thoughts on it.

I am a survivor of rape. I deal every day with my memories, and my fears. I have a first hand knowledge of just how dangerous a friend can become in a moment of their selfishness. Believe me, though its been 8 years this July, it never really goes away.

I still cannot stand to watch movies or tv shows that have rape scenes or any kind of hazy consent situations. I've crushed one or two boyfriend's hands in the process of trying to muscle through them and cried my eyes out later because it was just way too close to home.

I don't read romance novels or literature that involve rape. Its just...too vivid. Too real. Guaranteed to have me lying on my couch sobbing my eyes out in fear or pain by the end of the night.

There are jokes that definitely push the lines. Dead baby jokes, anything made by Seth McFarland, Dave Chappelle, Eddie Izzard and a whole slew of others. I have laughed at them. I've been horrified by them and everywhere in between.

But to me, rape jokes aren't funny. Rape jokes just make me think about everything awful that ever happened to me. Rape jokes make me think about the stories other women and men have told me. Rape jokes make me relive and sometimes feel ashamed all over again of what happened to me.

Rape jokes that talk about how a woman or man somehow deserved to get raped make me violently angry and make me worry that I did deserve it. Make me question my decisions and what led to my rape all over again.

Rape jokes that talk about how that's the only way to get someone in bed make me never want to go to a bar ever again.

And watching a friend make a rape joke can radically change how I look at them. Because it makes me wonder if they would think its funny to get someone drunk and do whatever they want to them.

Now, I can almost hear the criticism starting. "Wow Shiv, that's taking it a little far don't you think? Is that really fair? We can't just sugar coat everything for everyone. Free speech is there and comedy has to push all the boundaries to keep alive."

To which I say, that's fine. But haven't you noticed that its certain jokes have just become uncool? Or jokes that were totally fine 20 years ago are now absolutely out? Certain racist jokes, sexist jokes, using the N word unless you're a black comedian using it in a different context? Those went the way of the dinosaurs for the most part. They're not considered funny or appropriate or edgy anymore.

They're considered to be bad jokes. I think rape jokes are in the same line.

For example, for a while there, it was not ok to make Holocaust jokes. It was just the single most unfunny thing there was. Then, all of a sudden, people started making more and more. It became ok, a way of defanging and getting rid of the pain of an awful event.

I think this became more acceptable as it became more likely that there were no Holocaust survivors in the audience. No one to be traumatized by the memories or the names. Hitler jokes are big right now, he's the biggest, easiest target to hit. But 40 years ago? Would it have been the same? I don't know.

Here's another example. After Sept. 11th, there was a huge embargo on jokes about it for a long time. Why? Because it was just too painful to talk about. For the survivors, there was precious little funny about it. Eventually, at an event Gilbert Godfread stepped up and did some jokes about it and managed to pop that particular of blister of pain for the audience. It worked. Because the audience was ready to heal en mass by making this horrifying event funny.

So why are rape jokes so bad? Obviously jokes about inappropriate or edgy things can be good. They can change the way we think about an event or somehow make it easier to cope with.

What I find bad with rape jokes is that they often condone, gloss over or make light of the horrifying act of rape. They make something funny that is not funny. They also make those in the audience who live with the reality of rape, not the abstract concept, have to go through that pain all over again and feel alienated and isolated in a crowd of people laughing at their pain.

If I had made jokes about people jumping from the Twin Towers and how funny a sound it made, I would have been booed off the stage in New York. If I had made jokes about the Holocaust in a room of Holocaust survivors, that would have been awful.

What I am saying here is that likely, in every one of your audiences, there is someone who has been raped. 1 in 4 women and 1 in 10 men have been raped. Think about your averages there.

When you make that joke, you trigger the most awful memories in someone's life and make them relive them. Would you do that to a Vietnam Vet? Would you do that to a 9/11 survivor?

PTSD treatments that were developed for Iraq War veterans are now being used to treat sexual assault cases. Think about that. They have the same treatments. Because they are both insanely traumatizing events.

Would you say this joke in front of me? If I was standing in front of you right now, would you feel ok watching my face as you made this joke?

Now knowing what I've been through, knowing what it could make me feel, knowing that by doing so, you're making fun of something that changed my life so utterly.

Now ask yourself who else in your life has been raped. Who else might this have happened to? How many of them could be in your audience? How many of them might never come back?

In conclusion, in my opinion, rape jokes are bad, cheap jokes. Laughs that don't bring us together as an audience or make us walk out the theater feeling good, but instead alienate parts of us and make comedy a place that feels unsafe for some people to come to. Yes it is a choice to come to a comedy club.

But isn't comedy for everyone? Isn't laughter for everyone? Do we want to exclude these people? Or do we want to make this a safe, happy place for them to come? To get away from the world for a bit and laugh. That's what our work is, I think.

There's a company I work with called Wing It Productions. Under their sign it says "A Higher Plane of Comedy". I asked about this one day, because almost all their shows are PG-13 or under. I asked them why we couldn't swear in shows and up the rating. One of the directors told me this and I think it applies.

"Saying fuck or balls or crap gets a laugh. But it only gets one and its short and it never happens again. So its' not worth it. It's a cheap laugh. We want to do stuff that gets more than one laugh and we also want this to be a place where lots of people can come and feel safe dropping off their kids. There's lots of people swearing on stage. We wanted to do something different. "

I agree with this idea and it is part of why I work with them. I also want to advocate this for other comedians.

Take your comedy to a higher plane.

Put these jokes away.

They're hurtful and painful to a lot of people and I just don't think they are worth the laughs they get.

Let me know if you have any questions or thoughts. I would love to hear them.

Best Regards,

Shiv

Krano

14th July 2012, 16:43

George Carlin also joked about rape and he was not taken off air, comedians should be allowed to joke about anything they want. Now that being said this guy obviously wasn't funny he was just being sexist.

TUVjZPVj1Pk

Crux

14th July 2012, 17:27

Yeah rape jokes are totally unproblematic you guys.

#FF0000

14th July 2012, 17:32

Krano

14th July 2012, 17:38

So did you, like, just not read anything in this thread or what
Everyone throws a fit and the one person with different views gets bricks thrown at him, how is this different from any other thread?

A Revolutionary Tool

14th July 2012, 18:19

Tosh is an idiot, I can't stand anything he does because he's basically a personification of a rich elitist douchebag who doesn't care about anyone else. I remember him making fun of poor people in a "comedy" routine before he was famous and disliked him ever since. What is really perplexing here is a few of the reactions here.

Like the girl shouldn't have been there if she was going to be offended, that she shouldn't have stood up against rape jokes, etc. Like of all places I thought it would be unanimous here, didn't expect this type of apologism. I would really love to see Tosh heckled off of every stage that he steps up on. I would really love to see more people stand up against his reactionary shit and call him out on it.

Drosophila

14th July 2012, 18:25

This is what I've gathered from this thread:

Pn0WdJx-Wkw

RRRevolution

15th July 2012, 05:37

Yeah rape jokes are totally unproblematic you guys.you didn't respond to what I said. why are rape jokes always and completely off limits when people are allowed to openly joke about other types of violent crime? does a sexual aspect to a crime make it more heinous than murder, despite that murder is also a severe violation of ones bodily autonomy, and it would be easy to argue is actually a greater violation of another human?

I'm not saying Daniel Tosh isn't a misogynist because instance clearly was misogyny on his part, as well as him having a history of it. but I am honesty seeing a lot of hypocrisy in the approach people are taking.

Crux

15th July 2012, 10:15

you didn't respond to what I said. why are rape jokes always and completely off limits when people are allowed to openly joke about other types of violent crime? does a sexual aspect to a crime make it more heinous than murder, despite that murder is also a severe violation of ones bodily autonomy, and it would be easy to argue is actually a greater violation of another human?

I'm not saying Daniel Tosh isn't a misogynist because instance clearly was misogyny on his part, as well as him having a history of it. but I am honesty seeing a lot of hypocrisy in the approach people are taking.
that's probably because you are strawmanning while seemingly trivializing rape. And you're hardly the first. But yeah go cry about how nobody thinks your strawman deserves serious consideration. Sadly when it comes to sexism revleft never fails to dissapoint.

bcbm

16th July 2012, 04:15

why are rape jokes always and completely off limits

they aren't but they should be handled with surgical tweezers not a sledgehammer

does a sexual aspect to a crime make it more heinous than murder, despite that murder is also a severe violation of ones bodily autonomy, and it would be easy to argue is actually a greater violation of another human?

well you have to live with rape. murder conveniently leaves you in a state where you really don't give a shit

#FF0000

16th July 2012, 04:37

we also don't live in a world where 1 in 6 women and like 1 in 10 men are murdered and where people who shoot people in the face don't get away with it because their victim was asking for it.

#FF0000

16th July 2012, 04:38

Everyone throws a fit and the one person with different views gets bricks thrown at him, how is this different from any other thread?

nah actually what's going on is some people are posting hella decent responses and you are coming in here shouting "HERE IS MY OPINION" without having even looked at or considered what other people are saying and so you look stupid because you are responding to things no one said.

RRRevolution

16th July 2012, 04:49

we also don't live in a world where 1 in 6 women and like 1 in 10 men are murdered and where people who shoot people in the face don't get away with it because their victim was asking for it.So there is a rape culture, but no murder culture?

Actually, there is a murder culture worldwide. Which could even be somewhat evidenced by your lack of even noticing it.

they aren't but they should be handled with surgical tweezers not a sledgehammerNever said otherwise.

well you have to live with rape. murder conveniently leaves you in a state where you really don't give a shitBut everybody they were close to does. Lack of emotional toll in murders is a terrible reason for the distinction.

bcbm

16th July 2012, 06:46

So there is a rape culture, but no murder culture?

Actually, there is a murder culture worldwide. Which could even be somewhat evidenced by your lack of even noticing it.

i think 'murder culture' is a lot less pervasive than rape culture. i mean using the jokes example if you are hanging out with five women and five men friends and you make a murder joke, odds are they have not been murdered or are going to murder each other. a sexual assault joke on the other hand is a different story.

obviously there are places where this is different but thats not really what we're talking about. and frankly i would be surprised if places with a big 'murder culture' didnt have a high 'rape culture' too.

But everybody they were close to does. Lack of emotional toll in murders is a terrible reason for the distinction.

was kind of a joke. and, again, the whole 'pervasiveness' thing

RRRevolution

16th July 2012, 18:10

i think 'murder culture' is a lot less pervasive than rape culture. i mean using the jokes example if you are hanging out with five women and five men friends and you make a murder joke, odds are they have not been murdered or are going to murder each other. a sexual assault joke on the other hand is a different story.I think it's pretty indicative of where you grew up or live if you think that you can hangout with ten people and safely assume none have been effected by murder, and why a lot of leftists put so much more thought into rape culture.

obviously there are places where this is different but thats not really what we're talking about. and frankly i would be surprised if places with a big 'murder culture' didnt have a high 'rape culture' too.An orientation towards all sorts of violence goes hand in hand, definitely. You seem to think that an area having a lot of murder is an exception to the rule. In the world as a whole I think it's fairly clear that in actuality, your situation is the exception to the rule.

was kind of a joke. and, again, the whole 'pervasiveness' thingThe argument you made, regardless of whether or not it was kind of a joke, sounds like an argument someone would typically make and it needed to be addressed.

Again, the only distinction that's been presented amounts to "less people are murdered than raped". This distinction doesn't work.

bcbm

16th July 2012, 20:20

I think it's pretty indicative of where you grew up or live if you think that you can hangout with ten people and safely assume none have been effected by murder

isnt that what i basically say in the next sentence? oh, yeah.

You seem to think that an area having a lot of murder is an exception to the rule. In the world as a whole I think it's fairly clear that in actuality, your situation is the exception to the rule.

no i seem to think we are talking about rape culture and the pervasiveness of sexual assault and its relationship to comedy, not murder culture and whether or not it is more prevalent. how come whenever this issue comes up there is always an attempt to make it seem less important?

The argument you made, regardless of whether or not it was kind of a joke, sounds like an argument someone would typically make and it needed to be addressed.

Again, the only distinction that's been presented amounts to "less people are murdered than raped". This distinction doesn't work.

if you can't figure out why rape is a big deal i don't know what to tell you. but if the odds were the same for murder in an audience, making 'isnt murder always funny' jokes wouldnt be very cool either

Crux

16th July 2012, 22:00

To all those men who don't think rape jokes are a problem. (http://oforganon.tumblr.com/post/11150747104/to-all-those-men-who-dont-think-the-rape-jokes-are-a)

RRRevolution

16th July 2012, 22:07

isnt that what i basically say in the next sentence? oh, yeah."obviously there are places where it's different". Oh right, but that's not were you live so I mean why does that shit matter? That's just in ghettos and the third world. Not much concern to me.

no i seem to think we are talking about rape culture and the pervasiveness of sexual assault and its relationship to comedy, not murder culture and whether or not it is more prevalent. how come whenever this issue comes up there is always an attempt to make it seem less important?But to make a blanket statement about rape jokes being always unacceptable and to not feel the same way about murder jokes, which is also an extremely violent assault and there is also a murder culture, is hypocritical. Your methodology for deciding rape jokes are always unacceptable isn't the same methodology you're applying to murder jokes. Your opinions aren't consistent.

if you can't figure out why rape is a big deal i don't know what to tell you.Hahaha oh lord where the fuck did you get that idea from?

but if the odds were the same for murder in an audience, making 'isnt murder always funny' jokes wouldnt be very cool eitherThat's because it's a terribly presented joke because Daniel Tosh sucks as a comedian. But jokes about killing people are in comedy constantly, albeit not really in stand-up comedy.

Brosa Luxemburg

17th July 2012, 04:43

Well, I think we need to view "rape jokes" in context. When a comedian is basing a joke in reality, it isn't as if rape doesn't exist in reality. It is kinda the same thing when conservatives argue for censoring out drugs, sex, and violence from movies. No matter what, drugs, sex, and violence exist in reality and to censor them out is to deny reality and pretend it doesn't exist. Now, I am not comparing finding a rape joke offensive is the same thing as censoring drugs, sex, and violence, but I am drawing an analogy between the two. Other comedians, even very radical ones, have made rape jokes before. It just depends on how they do it. If a rape joke is made that is, at the same time, anti-rape then I wouldn't see the problem (unless it wasn't funny). Tosh went about it wrong. There is a way not to deny reality but condone such activity.

bcbm

17th July 2012, 05:34

"obviously there are places where it's different". Oh right, but that's not were you live so I mean why does that shit matter? That's just in ghettos and the third world. Not much concern to me.

the discussion we are having is about this event in this context, not another context where things are different. that doesn't mean what is happening there does not matter.

But to make a blanket statement about rape jokes being always unacceptable

which i didn't

and to not feel the same way about murder jokes, which is also an extremely violent assault and there is also a murder culture, is hypocritical.

murder isn't the same as rape though. rape is more than just 'an extremely violent assault'

Your methodology for deciding rape jokes are always unacceptable

which i didn't

isn't the same methodology you're applying to murder jokes. Your opinions aren't consistent.

the 'methodology' is exactly the same

Hahaha oh lord where the fuck did you get that idea from?

because you think rape is the same as murder because they are both 'violent assault'

That's because it's a terribly presented joke because Daniel Tosh sucks as a comedian. But jokes about killing people are in comedy constantly, albeit not really in stand-up comedy.

yeah i have been thinking about this some more and i think your comparison of rape to murder just doesn't work.

Comrade Jandar

17th July 2012, 06:03

Revleft is truly the castle of internet white knights.

Crux

17th July 2012, 06:44

Revleft is truly the castle of internet white knights.
How did you figure that?

Art Vandelay

17th July 2012, 06:54

This is coming from someone who thinks that nothing is off limits when it comes to humor (as I have stated on this site before and caught flack from some posters/ba) and I stress that nothing is off limits, what Tosh did was despicable. Under certain circumstances and handled correctly I think that a rape joke can be fine and that finding humor in the horrible things in life can help some people cope. But what Tosh said wasn't even a joke and I don't understand how people found it funny; he didn't make a "rape joke," he stated it would be funny if a woman was raped. That is neither a joke or funny and is a representation of the misogyny and reactionary view points which run through that mans head and which are on display more often than that night at the laugh factory.

bcbm

17th July 2012, 09:57

How did you figure that?

having a problem with misogyny makes you a white knight

Quail

19th July 2012, 14:21

Why is it that every time someone mentions rape culture, this comparison to "murder culture" is drawn? It really is irrelevant in so many ways.
- People don't survive murder so they won't get PTSD and suffer flashbacks.
- Murder isn't gendered in the same way that rape is. That's not to say that men don't get raped or women can't rape, but there is a power structure which means that men are more likely to be the perpetrators and women the victims.
- If you genuinely think that murder culture is a problem, then by all means go fight murder culture but murder culture being a problem doesn't mean that rape culture should be seen as less of a problem and ignored.

Comrade Jandar

26th July 2012, 07:48

I forgot to mention that I'm a total white knight in real life, but that's because I have low self-esteem. I recognize the irony and accept it.

L.A.P.

14th August 2012, 21:41

I just want to post this quote I recently heard from Daniel Tosh that I think pretty much sums up the whole basis of his humour

People think I'm a bleeding-heart liberal. But I'm very conservative on the key issues; first off, I hate the poor.

Silvr

14th August 2012, 22:06

having a problem with misogyny makes you a white knight

No, I don't think so. Making a huge deal out of dumb things like this to try to prove and flaunt your faux feminist cred to everyone does, though.

Quail

14th August 2012, 22:30

No, I don't think so. Making a huge deal out of dumb things like this to try to prove and flaunt your faux feminist cred to everyone does, though.
I think bcbm was being sarcastic, but that's beside the point. I don't think there's anything wrong with disliking any rape joke. Rape just isn't funny and I'd rather people over-reacted to rape jokes than ignored them (although I don't think that condemning what Daniel Tosh said is an over-reaction).

Silvr

14th August 2012, 22:48

I think bcbm was being sarcastic
Yeah, I know.

I don't think there's anything wrong with disliking any rape joke.No of course not. But all the extreme indignation and shock in this thread over an offensive comment made by a comedian whose entire raison d'etre is to be as shocking and offensive as possible seems completely fake to me.

I also think the elevation of rape to the status of something uniquely shocking and heinous over all other forms of violence, including murder and other forms of torture, has less to do with opposition to sexism and more to do with victorian notions about the unique depravity of defiling women and violating a woman's honour, which are in and of themselves deeply sexist notions, albeit not in the obvious "rape is hilarious, I hate *****es" type of way, which any one year old infant can identify as sexist and wrong.

Quail

14th August 2012, 23:09

No of course not. But all the extreme indignation and shock in this thread over an offensive comment made by a comedian whose entire raison d'etre is to be as shocking and offensive as possible seems completely fake to me.
I thought comedians were meant to be funny. Comedians can and do make funny material out of sensitive topics, but comedians can also just be offensive without being funny.

I also think the elevation of rape to the status of something uniquely shocking and heinous over all other forms of violence, including murder and other forms of torture, has less to do with opposition to sexism and more to do with victorian notions about the unique depravity of defiling women and violating a woman's honour, which are in and of themselves deeply sexist notions, albeit not in the obvious "rape is hilarious, I hate *****es" type of way, which any one year old infant can identify as sexist and wrong.
I can't really speak for anyone else, but I imagine that rape is seen as such a horrific act because of the effects it has on the survivor, which is not necessarily to do with "defiling women" - being sexually violated (regardless of what gender you identify as) is a horrible, traumatic experience which leaves long lasting emotional scars.

I gave reasons above why rape is more likely to go down badly than murder, but I also think that sexual violence is different from say physical violence. Both forms of violence have a person exerting power over another, but there is a huge difference between someone punching you in the face and someone penetrating you.

Silvr

14th August 2012, 23:22

I thought comedians were meant to be funny. Comedians can and do make funny material out of sensitive topics, but comedians can also just be offensive without being funny.

There are a lot of comedians that I don't think are funny (Daniel Tosh is one of them, incidentally).

I can't really speak for anyone else, but I imagine that rape is seen as such a horrific act because of the effects it has on the survivor, which is not necessarily to do with "defiling women" - being sexually violated (regardless of what gender you identify as) is a horrible, traumatic experience which leaves long lasting emotional scars. Yes, it is a horrible experience that can leave lasting emotional scars. I don't believe it is unique among all forms of violence and torture in that respect.

I gave reasons above why rape is more likely to go down badly than murderWith all due respect, I think this is an insane thing to say, and I also don't think your examples hold water. First, not every person who is raped is emotionally damaged for the rest of their life because of it. Secondly, plenty of people who are tortured or stabbed, or what have you, do experience lasting emotional scars.

but I also think that sexual violence is different from say physical violence. Both forms of violence have a person exerting power over another, but there is a huge difference between someone punching you in the face and someone penetrating you.What about between someone sexually penetrating you and someone stabbing you or shooting you or torturing you? Obviously they are not identical acts, but I think to elevate one as unconditionally worse than the others because it involves sexual penetration goes back to the mindset I was talking about in my previous post.

Brosa Luxemburg

14th August 2012, 23:34

xx1994xx I think he was being sarcastic when he said that.

Ostrinski

14th August 2012, 23:39

xx1994xx I think he was being sarcastic when he said that.i think that's the point. That you can't take anything that he or people like him say seriously

A Revolutionary Tool

15th August 2012, 02:56

xx1994xx I think he was being sarcastic when he said that.
The thing is, I really don't think he was being sarcastic. I think he's the type of douchey rich white guy who is going to say horribly reactionary things to get a laugh whilst actually believing it. That's just the vibe I get from him though, which is why I hate him. Does anybody think he gives a shit about poor people?

RadioRaheem84

15th August 2012, 03:18

What's more revealing are all the comedians supporting him! Even making reactionary rape jokes while doing it.

Ostrinski

15th August 2012, 03:23

What's more revealing are all the comedians supporting him! Even making reactionary rape jokes while doing it.and female comedians at that. Probably a defend the pack kind of thing. Comedians play rpugh though, they want us to react like this. Their careers depend on it.

L.A.P.

15th August 2012, 03:40

xx1994xx I think he was being sarcastic when he said that.

i think that's the point. That you can't take anything that he or people like him say seriously

nah man, humour has a strong relation to the unconscious, and it seems pretty apparent that Tosh's humour just comes down to a rich kid making fun of poor people. notice when he jokes about himself, he doesn't engage in self-deprication, he boosts his ego.

RadioRaheem84

15th August 2012, 03:50

A lot of comedians are insufferable. Tosh is one of those types.

What's up with every comedian defending this d-bag like it's defending freedom of speech.

He called out on his crap. He wasn't being silenced by the law.

Quail

15th August 2012, 11:41

Yes, it is a horrible experience that can leave lasting emotional scars. I don't believe it is unique among all forms of violence and torture in that respect.
With all due respect, I think this is an insane thing to say, and I also don't think your examples hold water. First, not every person who is raped is emotionally damaged for the rest of their life because of it. Secondly, plenty of people who are tortured or stabbed, or what have you, do experience lasting emotional scars.
I didn't say that other forms of violence don't leave scars. I don't think that jokes about torture or whatever would be particularly funny and yes, they could also trigger flashbacks for people who had been tortured. I don't know how widespread torture is, but if we think about rape then if about 1 in 4 women have experienced rape and about 30% of those go on to suffer from PTSD then that's 7.5% of the female population that are likely to be triggered by a rape joke. That's not to mention the men who have been raped. It's a very widespread problem. I know of quite a few people who have been raped but I don't know of anyone who has been tortured.

What about between someone sexually penetrating you and someone stabbing you or shooting you or torturing you? Obviously they are not identical acts, but I think to elevate one as unconditionally worse than the others because it involves sexual penetration goes back to the mindset I was talking about in my previous post.
I don't know how other people see it, but sex is something I do with people I trust, who I feel comfortable with. Being penetrated against my will violates my personal space and boundaries in a way that being physically assaulted doesn't. I don't want to be hit by anyone, but sexual assault requires someone forcing their way into an act that I reserve for people I trust. Does that make sense?

Jazzratt

15th August 2012, 12:19

Whenever I've been arguing about this or similar things people often make an argument like:

He's deliberately offensive, if you're offended or angry then that's what he wants. Don't be angry or offended.
Hell, maybe someone made a similar post earlier in this thread, I can't say as I can be bothered to look and I'm not really interested in singling people out for the response.

So the comedian's schtick is being an offensive arsehole? So fucking what? You don't get to be immune from criticism and it doesn't make your critics any less reasonable. Trying to do shocking, offensive humour should probably put you under more not less scrutiny; it requires the comedian to be subtle and highly capable. Daniel Tosh wasn't subtle, Daniel Tosh is incapable and for this crass pile of shit he should be castigated. Anyone who lets people like this get away with saying obviously terrible things should catch a fucking clue.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

15th August 2012, 16:24

You know, I can't help but think that the spectacle (and it is a spectacle in my view) of those who like to think of themselves as politically correct working themselves up into some self-righteous lather over a crap act are in fact producing the exact kind of reaction that some people seek. Like a form of real-life trolling?

Also, what kind of response was the heckler expecting? A reasoned discourse on the appropriate use of violence and sexual matters in comedy? Fat chance!

Silvr

15th August 2012, 17:58

I didn't say that other forms of violence don't leave scars. I don't think that jokes about torture or whatever would be particularly funny and yes, they could also trigger flashbacks for people who had been tortured. I don't know how widespread torture is, but if we think about rape then if about 1 in 4 women have experienced rape and about 30% of those go on to suffer from PTSD then that's 7.5% of the female population that are likely to be triggered by a rape joke. That's not to mention the men who have been raped. It's a very widespread problem. I know of quite a few people who have been raped but I don't know of anyone who has been tortured.Torture was just one example I gave, and obviously by far the least common in the places where you and I live. I know a lot of people who have been effected by the other forms of violence I mentioned, though, which you didn't address. But I want to be clear that I am not trying to downplay rape, but merely to question the thinking of some of the people in this thread who single it out as something exceptional among all forms of extreme violence, because I think the mindset underlying this conclusion is seriously questionable.

I don't know how other people see it, but sex is something I do with people I trust, who I feel comfortable with. Being penetrated against my will violates my personal space and boundaries in a way that being physically assaulted doesn't. I don't want to be hit by anyone, but sexual assault requires someone forcing their way into an act that I reserve for people I trust. Does that make sense?Obviously this is your personal view about it, so I am not going to dispute it. But for me, being physically assaulted, and I have been physically assaulted, is certainly a violation of my personal space and boundaries and this distinction doesn't mean much to me.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

15th August 2012, 18:19

Torture was just one example I gave, and obviously by far the least common in the places where you and I live. I know a lot of people who have been effected by the other forms of violence I mentioned, though, which you didn't address. But I want to be clear that I am not trying to downplay rape, but merely to question the thinking of some of the people in this thread who single it out as something exceptional among all forms of extreme violence, because I think the mindset underlying this conclusion is seriously questionable.

My understanding is that rape victims are mostly women. Maybe that's it?

Silvr

15th August 2012, 18:22

Yeah, that's definitely part of it.

Quail

15th August 2012, 19:05

I feel a bit funny and dissociated at the moment so I'm sorry if my responses aren't as coherent as they could be.

Torture was just one example I gave, and obviously by far the least common in the places where you and I live. I know a lot of people who have been effected by the other forms of violence I mentioned, though, which you didn't address. But I want to be clear that I am not trying to downplay rape, but merely to question the thinking of some of the people in this thread who single it out as something exceptional among all forms of extreme violence, because I think the mindset underlying this conclusion is seriously questionable.
I used torture as an example, but what I said applies to other forms of violence. They're all traumatic and I don't think it's necessarily helpful to rank different forms of violence in order of how bad they are. Any form of violence is unacceptable.

I can see where you're coming from, but I also think it's possible to see sexual abuse as a unique form of violence without basing that view on the idea of rape defiling women. Regardless of gender, being sexually assaulted is a degrading and traumatic experience. It is a unique way of violating someone's boundaries.

Obviously this is your personal view about it, so I am not going to dispute it. But for me, being physically assaulted, and I have been physically assaulted, is certainly a violation of my personal space and boundaries and this distinction doesn't mean much to me.
I think it's quite a big distinction. I don't really want to continue this particular discussion because it's making me feel quite uncomfortable, but I think that physical assault and sexual assault are pretty different experiences and have different impacts on the people who experience them.

Silvr

15th August 2012, 21:30

I feel a bit funny and dissociated at the moment so I'm sorry if my responses aren't as coherent as they could be.

No worries, they seem perfectly coherent to me.

I used torture as an example, but what I said applies to other forms of violence. They're all traumatic and I don't think it's necessarily helpful to rank different forms of violence in order of how bad they are. Any form of violence is unacceptable.
Then I think we agree. I wasn't trying to claim that physical violence and sexual violence are the same, they are obviously not, but I was taking issue with the ranking of different forms of violence, including murder, earlier in this thread, with rape coming out on top as the most horrible.

I don't really want to continue this particular discussion because it's making me feel quite uncomfortable, but I think that physical assault and sexual assault are pretty different experiences and have different impacts on the people who experience them.
That's cool, and I agree with you here as well.

Â¿Que?

16th August 2012, 08:51

My understanding is that rape victims are mostly women. Maybe that's it?
Well, for men, a majority of rape occurs in prison, and in general, sexual assult is underreported. The real figures are practically impossible to determine. Although rapists seem to be mostly men, for sure.

Crux

24th August 2012, 16:53

Joe Rogan vs. Jamie Kilstein on Tosh and Rape Culture

CQkTSJmffns

Crux

24th August 2012, 17:10

Oh and Joe Rogan is a massive fucking tool. Like really realy.
I couldn't make it all the way through. Maybe I'll continue later. Listen to this instead, that's what I am doing ie Jamie Kilstein without being constantly shouted at by Rogan.
Sb0UZolt4R4

Â¿Que?

29th August 2012, 10:08

Nihilist Scud Missile

8th October 2012, 02:38

I read Bukowski novels and I watch Tosh.O. I'm also a fan Of Lenny Bruce who's style offended many of us. What sort of society are we really trying to create? How constrictive will our ideology become, where will it end? I don't want to live in the world many radical feminists envision, yes this was idiotic of him to say but let him say it, tell him he's a fucking moron for saying so and move on. Or write a book about it in Andrea Dworkin fashion and place the entire blame of our social ills on porn and Tosh.O. Fuck class analisis, who needs it. Men are all rapists. Comedy should all be cencored and we all need to wear grey coveralls. Bottom line? Tosh is a fucking idiot for saying what he said, I'm glad he's not praised and worshiped like Obama who actually creates policies of mass murder and death. Save your indignation people...theer are worse things than asshat clowns who don't know when to shut their mouths. The guy is a court jester but pay no attention to the king without clothes.

Quail

8th October 2012, 09:42

#FF0000

8th October 2012, 09:46

Or write a book about it in Andrea Dworkin fashion and place the entire blame of our social ills on porn and Tosh.O.

hey let's be honest for a minute.

you've never read anything by dworkin have you

Nihilist Scud Missile

8th October 2012, 10:56

hey let's be honest for a minute.

you've never read anything by Dworkin have you
I don't critisize things I don't know about, I'd post a link to my goodreads account where I've written reviews of two of her books but will pass on that thank you. I can't stand Dworkin. I know she never said outright, word per word, "all men are rapists". It was a tad more nuanced than that. Anyhow I can dislike certian feminist theory without throwing the baby out with the bath water. I could also do a quick check on which men on this site have porn seeping through their hard drives. You wouldnt happen to be a big porn fan? Yes, lets be honest.

Anyway, banning or boycotting speech is absurd. No rape isnt funny, niether is murder and comedians joke about that all the time. Is racism funny? People being hung in trees, demoted to second class citizen status? Nope. Not funny but comedians use it all the time. Save your moral indignation. None of us are voting for Tosh. How many of us are voting for Obama, a person who is facilitating mass murder. A person who is perpetuating capitalism/class society itself. Are you one of the people who thinks patriarchy pre dates class societies? Most people don't even understand why workers should control the means of production and here we are trying to create a culture of equality by boycotting and banning comedians. Pfft. Welcome to the cluster fuck that is identity polotics and no I'm not saying rape is funny. Some of the threads in this womans struggle section remind me of a poster on youtube I use to critisize. NuclearNights was her name. She's the end product of radical feminist theory. Anyhow I've already learned I can't win the argument that radical feminism is bunkum (when debating radical feminists) so I'll save my breath and just say Tosh.0 is perpetuating rape culture. Lets ban him from the universe. Ya right. I'm going to go watch his show right now, I have it on DVR.

Nihilist Scud Missile

8th October 2012, 11:11

I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here, but what is this world that many radical feminists envision? One where people don't make jokes about rape? Because I don't see what would be so bad about that world. Rape just isn't funny and it's really insensitive to make jokes about it.

Men are raped as well so as a man I can say more jokes are made concerning men being raped. Anyway, no rape isnt funny - the world I don't want to live in is the Orwellian thought control enforcment of everything safe and non offensive. How do we go about punishing Tosh for his grave infraction (not telling rape jokes in particular but offending a woman with a rape joke)? How many comedians are we wanting off the air who have made male prison rape jokes? I find it all in bad taste but tough luck for me. I simply wont watch it or socialize with anyone who thinks rape is funny just as I dont socialize with racists. The world will always have shifty people in it. Deal with it.

#FF0000

8th October 2012, 18:47

I could also do a quick check on which men on this site have porn seeping through their hard drives. You wouldnt happen to be a big porn fan? Yes, lets be honest.

oh damn are you saying i seem like a dude who harbors a massive porn collection?

EDIT: deleted half a sentence that i never finished. Maybe I should write up my posts in one sitting from now on.

Anyway, banning or boycotting speech is absurd.Yeah, I can take or leave most of the rest of your points (I have hella criticisms of feminism and identity politics and I think we might agree on a lot there -- even though i think it's unfair to compare the threads in here to awful youtube radfem) and appreciate that you're not a dummy that thinks "GUBGUBGUBG FEMINAZIS GUBGUBGUB" but I've always been a big proponent of the Heckler's Veto as 'free speech'. Banning speech might be one thing, but what's wrong with boycotting it?

wordsI don't think anyone said anything about banning Tosh, though. I think people are mostly sitting around and saying "welp that was fucked up of him, what a jerk".

I mean I don't think it's especially useful or enlightening in any was as a discussion but I think you're kind of overreacting here, and not really responding to anything that's actually in this thread.

Quail

8th October 2012, 20:55

Men are raped as well so as a man I can say more jokes are made concerning men being raped. Anyway, no rape isnt funny - the world I don't want to live in is the Orwellian thought control enforcment of everything safe and non offensive. How do we go about punishing Tosh for his grave infraction (not telling rape jokes in particular but offending a woman with a rape joke)? How many comedians are we wanting off the air who have made male prison rape jokes? I find it all in bad taste but tough luck for me. I simply wont watch it or socialize with anyone who thinks rape is funny just as I dont socialize with racists. The world will always have shifty people in it. Deal with it.
I don't think rape jokes made about men are funny either. Nobody is suggesting that we ban Daniel Tosh or ban rape jokes (how would anyone even enforce that?); I think that we should be trying to create a culture where people respect each other so people don't make rape jokes because they realise that rape is a shitty thing to joke about and don't want to upset/trigger the vast number of people that have been raped. From my perspective it's a matter of respect for others and not being an asshole. If what you're going to say is going to make a significant proportion of the population feel uncomfortable (or worse) then just don't say it. When it comes to sensitive topics err on the side of caution. Surely it's better to stay quiet than to risk making a shitty, unfunny joke that upsets people?

Another point to make is that yeah, you can just ignore sexist behaviour. I don't hang out with sexists, racists, homophobes, etc., but if someone does say something discriminatory they need to be called out on it and be made aware that it's unacceptable. If nobody ever called anyone out then their behaviour seems more acceptable and they will continue to think that it is okay. It will also appear to be more socially acceptable, which will obviously have a negative impact on the minorities the views are aimed at, but also on young people growing up.