Three Men planned "terrorist" attack on EDL

[Hit The North]

What do comrades make of this:


Three men from Birmingham have appeared in court accused of plotting to attack members of the English Defence League.

Jewel Uddin, 26, Omar Mohammed Khan, 27, and Mohammed Hasseen, 23, all from Sparkhill, appeared at Westminster Magistrates' Court on terror charges.

They were arrested in raids last week after police stopped a car on the M1 and found guns, knives, machetes and a home-made explosive device.

The case has been sent to the Old Bailey for a hearing on 31 July.
Click the link for the full story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18777992

Irresponsible squadism or an heroic action foiled by the old bill?

[Tim Cornelis]

Why wouldn't this be terrorism? I don't see why Islamist terrorism would either be irresponsible squadism or heroic, it's neither.

[Sasha]

Neither, its stupid behavior and my main interest would be not whether but how much mi5 was involved but you can shove your "squadism" term and all with it intended implications so deep up your arse maybe finally something useful on the subject comes out..

[helot]

Why wouldn't this be terrorism? I don't see why Islamist terrorism would either be irresponsible squadism or heroic, it's neither.


I don't see where you're getting the impression it's islamist terrorists... Those on trial for it may be Muslim but that doesn't say anything about why they wanted to attack the EDL. Of course i'm not claiming they're decent people or anything, i don't know them, just that there's tons of reasons as to why a muslim may wish to attack the EDL and not all can be accurately labelled "islamist terrorism". Maybe that is the case with these people, maybe not.



I do, however, think it was stupid of them. The best method to combatting the EDL is through community organising not individual attacks.

[Hit The North]

Why wouldn't this be terrorism? I don't see why Islamist terrorism would either be irresponsible squadism or heroic, it's neither.

Why is this Islamist terrorism? The article doesn't say they're from an Islamist organisation. Why does the religion of the people conducting the action define this for you?


Originally posted by psycho
Neither, its stupid behavior and my main interest would be not whether but how much mi5 was involved but you can shove your "squadism" term and all with it intended implications so deep up your arse maybe finally something useful on the subject comes out..
:lol:. You're just jealous because they are better armed than you. But, seriously, I wasn't intending to imply this was connected to actual anti-fash groups, or to suggest a parallel between the two, so, yeah, the choice of the word "squadism" was poor. But to your other input: do you really think mi5 set it up? Personally, I think things are getting so polarised in the UK that they don't need to bother. It's scary to think how further polarised things would get if this attack had gone ahead.

[Tim Cornelis]

Why is this Islamist terrorism? The article doesn't say they're from an Islamist organisation. Why does the religion of the people conducting the action define this for you?


I don't see where you're getting the impression it's islamist terrorists... Those on trial for it may be Muslim but that doesn't say anything about why they wanted to attack the EDL.

Three bearded muslim men, odds are they are Islamists. But you're right that there is a chance they are not.

[helot]

Three bearded muslim men, odds are they are Islamists. But you're right that there is a chance they are not.

Beards don't prove anything... except awesomeness :D

[ed miliband]

i think you can make an educated guess that these guys are probably islamists. maybe they were just ordinary muslims, upset at victimisation from the edl. maybe. but i'm sure there are millions of muslims who feel the same and don't make nail bombs, get guns, etc. in response.

of course, that doesn't necessarily mean it was "islamist terrorism", and i'm sure you can make a technical argument about it not be so. but yes, they are probably islamists. i'll eat my hat if they arent.

[Blackscare]

Three bearded muslim men, odds are they are Islamists. But you're right that there is a chance they are not.


This is a warning for racism/Islamophobia.


Funny, I actually worked at a place recently where I got to know a great many "bearded Muslim men" and none of them struck me as the terrorist sort.

[Tim Cornelis]

This is a warning for racism/Islamophobia.

If that remark was racist/Islamophobic then I should be restricted, shouldn't I?

But how is it Islamophobic, that when bearded muslim men are preparing a terrorist attack, that in all probability they are Islamist.

Just like when white skinheads target a Jewish convention, it's safe to say that they are nazis.

I wouldn't be saying that skinheads are all nazis, I would be saying that these skinheads are in all probability nazis because they targeted a Jewish convention.


Funny, I actually worked at a place recently where I got to know a great many "bearded Muslim men" and none of them struck me as the terrorist sort.

I'm not saying that bearded, muslim men are all terrorists you dimp. I'm saying that terrorists who are bearded muslims are in all probability Islamist. There is absolutely nothing Islamophobic about this.

[Hit The North]

But how is it Islamophobic, that when bearded muslim men are preparing a terrorist attack, that in all probability they are Islamist.


It might not be Islamophobic but you're certainly guilty of stereotyping.


Just like when white skinheads target a Jewish convention, it's safe to say that they are nazis.I wouldn't be saying that skinheads are all nazis, I would be saying that these skinheads are in all probability nazis because they targeted a Jewish convention.But if it was a group of tooled-up white anti-fascist skinheads intercepted on their way to attack the EDL would you call them "terrorists" so easily?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

On one hand, I have zero sympathy for the EDL and their being blown up or hacked to pieces does not in itself present any problem in my eyes.

However, on the other hand I think if they had been successful then the impact of such an event would most likely have been disastrous in the current context. Aside from possibly providing a PR boost to the EDL (via sympathy from the right-wing press who would gleefully leap upon such an opportunity), it would have given another chance for this rotten government to hide behind the headlines while they sell us all down the river. Again.

Killing boneheads is a bad thing if it leads to more boneheads in the future.

[Le Socialiste]

Helot hit it on the button, we certainly aren't positive whether these men were islamists. Either way, it was stupid. More anti-fash organizing, less vigilantism.

[Art Vandelay]

What I don't understand, why is it when anti-fascists (who are generally not bearded Muslims) undertake an action it is called anti-fascism, yet when bearded Muslim men do it, it is characterized as terrorism?

To me that is islamophobic if not just brutal stereotyping as I have heard of anti-fascist actions which include attacks on fascists many times with weapons.

That, to me, is the real issue here.

[Ocean Seal]

Three bearded muslim men, odds are they are Islamists. But you're right that there is a chance they are not.
Or they could just be normal Muslims who are pissed off at the EDL for nationalist/ethnic reasons. There is nothing to suggest that they are fundamentalists. Also beards are cool.

[Tim Cornelis]

It might not be Islamophobic but you're certainly guilty of stereotyping.

Perhaps, but I don't think so. It's statistics based on my personal experience. Every single non-Islamist muslim I've ever met, had no beard, and every Islamist muslim I've met did have a beard. Obviously, there are muslims who have a beard for aesthetic reasons, not Islamic, but when you have three muslim men with beards, the odds are they are Islamist.

Then when these men are plotting a terrorist attack, the odds are they are Islamist terrorists. That's simply the odds, not necessarily stereotyping.

Just like that when skinheads attack Jews, the odds are they are nazis, and not anti-fascist, or apolitical skinheads. That's not stereotyping, that's the odds.


But if it was a group of tooled-up white anti-fascist skinheads intercepted on their way to attack the EDL would you call them "terrorists" so easily?

Well obviously everyone is a little biased in favour of his or her own ideology. But, yes, if those anti-fasicsts had explosives on them they would be (would-be) terrorists. And if then someone would use quotation marks around "terrorism" as if it's not really terrorism, then I would correct that, yes.


What I don't understand, why is it when anti-fascists (who are generally not bearded Muslims) undertake an action it is called anti-fascism, yet when bearded Muslim men do it, it is characterized as terrorism?

Because usually anti-fascists don't use home-made explosives.


To me that is islamophobic if not just brutal stereotyping as I have heard of anti-fascist actions which include attacks on fascists many times with weapons.

But not explosives.

[¿Que?]

But to your other input: do you really think mi5 set it up? Personally, I think things are getting so polarised in the UK that they don't need to bother. It's scary to think how further polarised things would get if this attack had gone ahead.
Sorry to jump in here, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if mi5 or some other government agency had been watching these guys.

For some reason, I find it suspicious that the police fortuitously discovered weapons and such on a random police stop and further, it turned out to be a "terrorist" plot.

Maybe things are different in the UK, but I have friends who consistently drive above the legal limit after drinking, others who regularly carry generous amounts of drugs, and still others who are undocumented and driving with fake licenses. Yes, some of them sometimes get caught, but this is very rare occurrence.

Thing is, the above things mentioned are pretty regular occurrences. If it wasn't them getting caught, it would be someone else. There are more than just a few people doing these things. On the other hand, take plotting a terrorist action or, if you're hung up with the semantics, whatever you want to call what these guys were up to. Given all the people out on the road, breaking the law, either from just minor speeding violations anywhere up to grand theft auto, to uncover a major conspiracy such as this, on a "routine police stop" to me is statistically, like winning the lottery. It seems very very unlikely.

It would make more sense if they had been profiled (pulling over bearded Muslims just because they looked like bearded Muslims), the car was stolen, or something else, like mi5 had been tracking them, and advised the police to pull them over.

Further, I'm not sure if the laws are all that different in the UK, but in the US, your vehicle cannot be searched unless the police have probable cause to suspect a major crime. Even then, if I recall correctly, they would still need a warrant to search the trunk. So even if you did get pulled over, provided you didn't look or act suspicious, there's still a high likelihood that your vehicle wouldn't be searched. If these guys were just dumb enough to have all that stuff out in the open, well that's one thing, but I seriously doubt it.

So yeah, barring any details suggesting that the car was stolen, or something other than just a routine stop, I would venture to guess that mi5 was involved.

Goonna go polish my tinfoil hat now...

[Hit The North]

It's statistics based on my personal experience.


Yeah, that's like the official definition of a stereotype.


Well obviously everyone is a little biased in favour of his or her own ideology. But, yes, if those anti-fasicsts had explosives on them they would be (would-be) terrorists. And if then someone would use quotation marks around "terrorism" as if it's not really terrorism, then I would correct that, yes.

Soldiers also use explosives. Why aren't you calling them soldiers?

[Hit The North]

Sorry to jump in here, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if mi5 or some other government agency had been watching these guys.


Me neither.


For some reason, I find it suspicious that the police fortuitously discovered weapons and such on a random police stop and further, it turned out to be a "terrorist" plot. [...] So even if you did get pulled over, provided you didn't look or act suspicious, there's still a high likelihood that your vehicle wouldn't be searched. If these guys were just dumb enough to have all that stuff out in the open, well that's one thing, but I seriously doubt it.


Yeah, Pakistani and Bangladeshi men are 18 times more likely to be stopped and searched by the police in the UK than white dudes. So you never know...

[Leftsolidarity]

Neat

[Tim Cornelis]

Yeah, that's like the official definition of a stereotype.

How so? That Islamists generally have beards? No, because that's correct.


Soldiers also use explosives. Why aren't you calling them soldiers?

Because they are not an army, obviously. That's like asking me why I'm not calling them doctors since they had knives.

Terrorism is the employment of violence against a civilian population. They were allegedly going to use explosives against the EDL, civilians. Hence, would-be terrorists.

Your question implies as if they were not terrorists, and my question of why this wouldn't be terrorism is still not answered.

Incidentally, I've occasionally referred to soldiers as terrorists. So in a way, I did call them soldiers (but not really, actually).

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

It's a stupid idea. I'm sure the EDL is going to use this as proof that "islamo-fascism" wants to take over Britain.

[Hit The North]

How so? That Islamists generally have beards? No, because that's correct.


Devout Muslim men tend to have beards and your flirtation with a stereotype based on your "personal experience" is on the verge of labelling all Muslims with beards as Islamist Jihadists.


Because they are not an army, obviously. That's like asking me why I'm not calling them doctors since they had knives. When is an army an army in your book, when a state says it is? And your analogy with surgeons suggests that you have quite a charitable view of what 'soldiering' entails.


Terrorism is the employment of violence against a civilian population. They were allegedly going to use explosives against the EDL, civilians. Hence, would-be terrorists.OMG and soldiers never do that to civilians!


Your question implies as if they were not terrorists, and my question of why this wouldn't be terrorism is still not answered.
Not really, I'm just wondering why you are using the term so uncritically. Your first response was to call these men 'Islamist terrorists', practically writing the headline for your local bourgeois newspaper. And the main problem isn't that you label them as 'terrorist', it is that you assume that any Muslim engaging in an act of terror is an Islamist. For all you know they could be a detachment of misguided but nevertheless hot-shot direct-action anti-fascists, who have all suffered at the hands of the EDL and are out for revenge. But you saw the beards and thought of old Bin Laden, didn't you?


Incidentally, I've occasionally referred to soldiers as terrorists. So in a way, I did call them soldiers (but not really, actually). Cool, so you realise that these labels carry political rather than objective weight.

[Sea]

What I don't understand, why is it when anti-fascists (who are generally not bearded Muslims) undertake an action it is called anti-fascism, yet when bearded Muslim men do it, it is characterized as terrorism?An issue of motivation I think, and that's assuming these men were motivated by their religion.. and that's a medium-large if. If the attack was on a synagogue, I'd say there's a good chance of it being an attack of the jihad persuasion. But, considering the anti-goddamneveryone nature of the EDL, I wouldn't quite make such an assumption. I'm glad for what happened regardless.

disclaimer: I'm talking about these 3 specific Mulsims, *not* Muslims in general. No islamophobia intended.

[Ocean Seal]

How so? That Islamists generally have beards? No, because that's correct.

The difference is that you assumed that these guys were Islamists on the basis that they were Muslims with beards. There are plenty of Muslims with beards who aren't Islamists. Its the equivalent of your standard suburban closet racist middle class upstanding citizen saying most criminals are black, therefore I'm going to assume that this black guy is a criminal.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Why wouldn't this be terrorism?.Well what makes it "terrorist" and not a "gang" fight? Why not vigilantism?


They were arrested in raids last week after police stopped a car on the M1 and found guns, knives, machetes and a home-made explosive device.So cops randomly pulled some "suspiciously bearded" men over? Why?

What does "home-made explosive device" mean? What does "improvised explosive" mean? A car-bomb? A molotov cocktail? A aerosol can and a book of matches near-by? A flaming bag of dog-shit?


Mr Uddin, Mr Khan and Mr Hasseen are charged under the Terrorism Act 2006, accused of preparing for an act or acts of terrorism with the intention of committing such acts.


The arrests, by the West Midlands Counter Terrorism Unit, followed a routine police stop of a vehicle on the M1 near Sheffield, South Yorkshire, on 30 June.A routine stop? Of immigrants or dark-skinned people? A "counter-terrorism" unit just randomly stops people they think might be terrorists on the road? Were counter-terrorism units stopping people for broken tail-lights and they stumbled on some "terrorists"? Or were they fishing for people they could label as terrorists?

They could have been "terrorists" but I think things don't quite add up the way the cops and BBC want them to seem.

In the US this kind of thing (if my suspicions are correct) is called "the war on drugs" and local police forces get federal money based on the amount of drug-convinctions they get. Anti-gang units are formed and basically sweep up black people and pull people over in "routine traffic stops" where they are then allowed to search vehicles for drugs just because someone didn't have proper registration or a working turn signal. 9 out of 10 times they find nothing, but that one time they find some weed or coke, they book the person. The courts see a bunch of people who were caught with drugs come through the system which creates the impression that cops always get the right person. But it's a self-justifying cycle.

It sounds to me like the UK - or at least this task force - was looking to justify it's anti-terrorism laws and funding.

That being said, yes if these guys wanted to beat up - or terrorize - the EDL, then it is a useless individualist strategy from a working class perspective.

[NoPasaran1936]

Three bearded muslim men, odds are they are Islamists. But you're right that there is a chance they are not.

Damn dem durty terrrrorirrstts with their beards and their allah worshiping.



I doubt they were Islamic terrorists. Terrorists in the sense that they were intending to terrorise people, but their motives maybe more against a disgusting organisation that has provoked them.

This is essentially good propaganda for the EDL, and the 3 men fell into the EDL's trap.

[NoPasaran1936]

Well what makes it "terrorist" and not a "gang" fight? Why not vigilantism?

So cops randomly pulled some "suspiciously bearded" men over? Why?

What does "home-made explosive device" mean? What does "improvised explosive" mean? A car-bomb? A molotov cocktail? A aerosol can and a book of matches near-by? A flaming bag of dog-shit?



A routine stop? Of immigrants or dark-skinned people? A "counter-terrorism" unit just randomly stops people they think might be terrorists on the road? Were counter-terrorism units stopping people for broken tail-lights and they stumbled on some "terrorists"? Or were they fishing for people they could label as terrorists?

They could have been "terrorists" but I think things don't quite add up the way the cops and BBC want them to seem.

In the US this kind of thing (if my suspicions are correct) is called "the war on drugs" and local police forces get federal money based on the amount of drug-convinctions they get. Anti-gang units are formed and basically sweep up black people and pull people over in "routine traffic stops" where they are then allowed to search vehicles for drugs just because someone didn't have proper registration or a working turn signal. 9 out of 10 times they find nothing, but that one time they find some weed or coke, they book the person. The courts see a bunch of people who were caught with drugs come through the system which creates the impression that cops always get the right person. But it's a self-justifying cycle.

It sounds to me like the UK - or at least this task force - was looking to justify it's anti-terrorism laws and funding.

That being said, yes if these guys wanted to beat up - or terrorize - the EDL, then it is a useless individualist strategy from a working class perspective.


I've been stopped a few times randomly.....

[Jimmie Higgins]

I've been stopped a few times randomly.....By an anti-terrorism unit?!:blink:

[NoPasaran1936]

By an anti-terrorism unit?!:blink:

Oh right, not by an anti-terrorism team. I didn't realise that was the case.

UK's a police state now, so this doesn't surprise me.

I was once stopped by a team of armed police at an airport because I had a BMX and a BIG bag on me. They asked to check it.


A pedalling suicide bomber potentialee.

[Leftwinger]

This was a sophisticated attempt to target the EDL. These men had access to firearms and other weapongs, along with manufacturing improvised explosive devices. It sounds like terroism to me, and they knew what they were doing. The EDL might be a racist organisation with some extremely nasty individuals, but that doesn't excuse violence.

They aren't the police and shouldn't be taking matters into their own hand. Secretly the EDL will love this incident because it fuels tension in the community and proves there point that England would be better off without Muslims in the country. This way, everyone suffers and that isn't good.

[bcbm]

They aren't the police and shouldn't be taking matters into their own hand.

uh what

[Hit The North]

The EDL might be a racist organisation with some extremely nasty individuals, but that doesn't excuse violence.

They aren't the police and shouldn't be taking matters into their own hand.

In what sense are you a 'Leftwinger'?

[Igor]

In what sense are you a 'Leftwinger'?

In the military academy thread this same fellow thought that it's a good idea to send poor kids off to military academies so that they can use their aggressive energy "for good".

I don't think we're going to see this guy a lot outside OI in the future

[Jimmie Higgins]

While I don't agree with the post made by Leftwinger, I think we can probably argue against the points made by the new poster before making a judgement about them personally and their whole political worldview.

With two total posts, it's a bit hard to distinguish "new" from "troll" just yet and such judgements won't phase a troll while it could intimidate an actual "raw" new poster.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

This was a sophisticated attempt to target the EDL. These men had access to firearms and other weapongs, along with manufacturing improvised explosive devices. It sounds like terroism to me, and they knew what they were doing. The EDL might be a racist organisation with some extremely nasty individuals, but that doesn't excuse violence.

They aren't the police and shouldn't be taking matters into their own hand. Secretly the EDL will love this incident because it fuels tension in the community and proves there point that England would be better off without Muslims in the country. This way, everyone suffers and that isn't good.

Not taking matters into own hands? Good luck with your socialist revolution!

[Leftwinger]

It doesn't bother me if the males are Muslim. No one should be plotting to attack anyone, even if we are talking about the EDL - a racist, far right extremist group full of uneducated, politically naive skinheads, who fuel violent hatred towards Muslims.

Surely it is left wing to take a disliking towards the EDL, but at the same time call for a stop to any violence and terroism? Is socialism not left wing, just more centre-left, or do posters on here lean more towards the far left? Just trying to find out?

[Hit The North]

Leftwinger, the problem with this incident isn't that the men were taking things into their own hands. The real problem is the other things you mention: the fact that the act would be more likely to split the working class than bring it together; and the inhumane and disproportionate response: the idiots who populate the EDL probably deserve a good kicking but probably don't deserve being carved up with machetes or blown up with bombs.

But from the standpoint of being communist revolutionists, we don't condemn actions on the basis of an appeal to the laws of the capitalist state that we oppose and propose the abolition of. That would be daft.

[Leftwinger]

I think men like this give Muslims a bad name and make the public think they are all terrorists, especially when you have the BBC article keen to point this out. This is good propaganda for the EDL.
And yes it isn't good when the working class are split for the communist state that is preached on here. You have the muslims fighting against the EDL, both working class groups. What is wrong with the police? There has to be some law enforcement in this country. I promise you that I'm left wing, isn't socialism part of the whole ideology of a communist revolutionist?

[bcbm]

There has to be some law enforcement in this country.

its only for the rich, acab

[Leftwinger]

its only for the rich, acab How realistic is a classless society with no rich people? It's not going to happen.

[¿Que?]

While I agree we should not jump the gun about Leftwingers political philosophy, there are some troubling signs about his rhetoric that indicate he might be a troll, a phony leftist (really a right winger in disguise), or just incredibly misinformed and uneducated.

Besides his avowal and tacit approval of the police and bourgeois law, let's examine the rhetoric on his last post.


And yes it isn't good when the working class are split for the communist state that is preached on here.
Most people on here have views that they advocate, but to suggest that this site "preaches" for a communist state sounds a little condescending. It really is a matter of interpretation, ultimately, so nothing definitive can be said of his choice of words here, but to me it arguably suspect.

Also,

There has to be some law enforcement in this country.
Again, nothing definitive, but definitely suspect. This site has a lot of people from many different parts of the world. I'm not making any accusations here, just pointing out that such rhetoric strikes me personally as a little nativist.

[bcbm]

How realistic is a classless society with no rich people? It's not going to happen.

well i am pretty sure 'classless' would, by default mean 'no rich people' becuase you know the rich are a clas adn they fuck us over and then we overthroew them and then classless

[lan153rez]

The Irony of Predappio in Italy:



Benito Mussolini, leader of Italy's National Fascist Party, and Adone Zoli, an ardent anti-fascist, obviously two very different men, have something common: they were both born in Predappio, a town in the province of Forlì-Cesena in Italy.

Two powerful men from the opposite ends of Italy's political spectrum share this birthplace. But aside from Predappio, both men shared a couple other commonalities, too: both Mussolini and Zoli became Prime Ministers of Italy, and both men embraced the Italian flag with much fervor and wanted to lead Italy to an era that is better than the one they found.

[lan153rez]

When we think of the major threats to our national security, the first to come to mind are nuclear proliferation, rogue states and global terrorism. But another kind of threat lurks beyond our shores, one from nature, not humans - an avian flu pandemic

:crying: