Intelligent, or going mad?

[Kez]

Hello comrades,
Life isnt easy as a teenage commie?
Once you read marx, u begin to doubt everything, and u feel isolated which is shit.
You begin to doubt even normal shit, and begin to sometimes become paranoid about your own health, eg i think im gonna go loony sometimes.
Does anyone else feel the same, any more stories?

comrade "just sane" kamo

[El Commandante]

Yeah I get it all the time, people call you nicknames like "commie bastard" and "che" (which is kind of cool but they do it to be a pain). I look at things differently now and things anger me like never before. Other people don't get that and they laugh when I tell them how I feel. Luckily there are some people at my school who share my beliefs, one who is an anarchist and one who wants to do philosophy.

[Maaja]

Well, I think that it is quite normal that teenagers hate communists. Because most of teenagers dream about USA, pink sugar and cream films and free Mcburgers! And I am sure that they can't even imagine another lifestyle than they see from American movies - hanging around with friends, shopping-shopping-shopping, driving new shiny cars... what else? And money rules their life. Most of them will never get it all but still they won't loose those *ideals*.
By the way, a few days ago I met in a chatroom an American guy and we started chatting. He started asking me what do I think about USA and he said how cool everything is there. I told him what i think and I told him too about my communistic wiews. Then he said that of course I am wrong but started talking about a American movie where a hot Russian chick will meet a capitalistic spy from USA and they'll fell in love. Isn't it sweet and creamy?! And so they are thinking... The only thing I could say was... EXCUSE-ME???!!!!

[El Commandante]

Maaja, that is so true. I have an American cousin, only six months younger than me and we are world's apart. She is interested with fashion, money, beauty and oh did I mention, money. She doesn't care up anyone else but herself. We have a very gift if we can see things how they are and stand up for ourselves at such a young age. This is something that should be treasured and not given up without a fight.

[CommieBastard]

I went through an angry phase, now i just tend to chill out, in fact i find it hard to work up a good anger...
i can't find people annoying anymore, cos i don't perceive it as their fault for who they are...

anyway, i certainly think you have to question everything, especially reality and sanity etc.

I mean, think about it, how do you know the info your perceptions gives you is correct? or even that your interpretations are correct? and if things so fundamental as that can't be proven true, then anything that you think could be wrong.
I went rhough some times doubting my connection with reality, but you have to work on assumptions, even if you accept that the foundation for those assumptions could be wrong...
ah, what fun to babble...

[Guest1]

It's hard, because everyone tells you it doesn't work. They say things like "why would people work" and "bleeding heart socialist, stop living in a dream". It's pretty depressing sometimes, it would be so much easier to be a jughead. Damn airheads at my school "like, yeah, how can you think that? I don't agree, how would you shop?". But its good to have a cause.

[Derar]

Most of ppl run away from the truth. they use the movies for that , just to dream and convince theirselves that what they see is all amazing and true .
they just dont know the great lies behind all this , thats why they call it ( movies ) !!

[drunktank]

It's difficult to be different
but what can we do?

[sabre]

Yeah its terrible i feel the same way Tavareesh. People are like why are you wearing that che shirt hes a commie why dont you burn it. blah blah blah

[Freiheit]

i read a newspaper or something. and then i always think:
WHY ARE HUMANS SO BLIND AND STUPID? dont they see that it doesnt work?

[Latino Americano]

The capitalist idea is injected into the minds of every person in the U.S and many other capitalist countries.
It is this selfish ideaology, this "dog eat dog mentality", which is put forth to you the moment you are born.
The instruments of munipulation include, but are not limited to, telivision, movies, video games, newspapers, magazines, schools..............................
the list can go on forever.
You few fortunate individuals have not subcumb to these forces(yet?) by deciding that there is more to it than personal satisfaction.
You individuals must never become discouraged or drift away from what you truly believe in.
This cannot be some simple hobby of yours.
It must define you if you intend on defining it.
It must trigger something inside you when an injustice is being committed.
It must be seen in every action you take no matter how minute.
It must be with you until your very last breath.

Fight until Victory is achieved or dont bother fighting at all.

[CommieBastard]

I SAID RUN AND YOU CRAWLED
I WANT YOU TO STAND
BUT ON THE FLOOR ARE YoU SPRAWLED
WHAT HAPPENED TO FREEDOM
YOU THREW IT AWAY
SUCH A VALUABLE THING
DOESNT COME EVERY DAY

I FALL AND YOU WALK PAST
YOU DONT SLOW, YOU GO FAST
NO HELP FROM YOU, NOT A CARE
TO HELP ME WOULD BE DIFFERENT
AND THATS SOMETHING YOU WOULDNT DARE

MY FACE BURNS
AND YOUR'S TURNS
LOOK ON WITH COLD IMPASSIVE EYE
AT MY FOOLISHNESS YOU SIGH
WHAT A FOOL TO SUFFER PAIN
MAYBE I SHOULD REFRAIN
MAYBE I SHOULD CRAWL AWAY
STOP MY SCREAMING
END MY PAIN
LET YOU GET ON WITH YOUR FUCKIN CLOUD CUCKOO LAND FUCKIN PERFECT LIFE

YEAH YEAH YEAH VIOLENT REACTION
ENERGY FILLIN ME JUST GOTTA JUMP
JUST GOTTA SHOUT
HEAR ME,
HEAR YOU HEAR IT ALL COS HERE IT COMES
ENERGY TOTALITY EVERYWHERE IN MY HEAR IN MY SOUL IN MY MIND
SEE IF PEACE YOU CAN FIND
WHEN I SHOUT
ALL YOU HEAR
COS I SHOUT
A CRY OF FEAR

i feel like i feel like seeing what i feel like i feel like lookin here seein you seein all cos i see and i feel no escape from the meal all are here none are gone see if i dont run away no way i stay where i die too much pain put in my head put that puppet there instead anguish rides up my skull no fun when tingles fill my nerves spinal chord hanging loose holding guts in my hands looking at those bloody strands what is worth all this effort except the pain that they have sent into my very mind that drives me to madness that sends me where i dont know a place of my own mind im dreaming now here in my mind a place of their creation formed of my imagination who knows who i am think i found him sitting here curled in a ball crying with fear poor little boy cry no more i found you/me at last no more fear when the end is so near no need for tears when we can run and frollock in fields no longer feeling pain because that corpse in the real world that they jab is no longer connected to me or this place or you i wanted to run to a safe place and now they've sent me here thank god that safe place is in my mind where it doesnt matter if i die in the sweet embrace of myself as i watch the burning buildings collapse about those who fled the city burning in uproar because im in a bubble where i cant see their pain

oh mother, why wont the cold go away,
oh mother, why do you always float away,
i miss your face,
miss your embrace
what happened that took away my soul
i feel cold all inside,
i cant from myself hide...
wrapped up, in a ball, i shiver, i rock, i wish, close my eyes, go somewhere else, demons of my mind are no more kind... wheat, grass, trees, leaves peace at last... breeze sweet smells clouds floating in the sky
look, that one looks like a rabbit...

[vox]

Allow me, for the moment, to be the vox of experience.

I'm older than you. Believe it.

I don't think that it's surprising for teenagers to question their sanity. In fact, it's the appropriate action, I think. After all, teenagers are emerging from childhood and still clearly see that things are not right. When confronted with a world of insanity, just what is the proper reaction?

Many of your peers acquiesce. Some of you will, too. I'm lucky, in a way, in that I came to politics later in life. This is an ugly and foul business, and idealists are shed along the way, or, like me, see the wisdom of materialism. Do not ever expect human beings to live up to your idealism. Che is about the closest you'll get.

Okay, end of sermon.

On a practical level, I've said this before and I'll say it now. When people challenge what you say, you DAMN well better be able to counter them. This isn't just about socialism being good, it's also about capitalism being bad. Know your theory. Stay calm. Stay rational. Stay polite. Do all of that, but destroy the argument against your belief. You can do it. Hell, if I can, and I think I do a fair job, you can, too. I'm not special, after all. I'm just another worker in the struggle.

When challenged, defeat the challenger. Yes, it requires a lot of reading, and often the topic is boring, but you will gain not only credibility, but a great defense against those who seek to revile you.

I'd be willing to make a wager. Read for a month, to the exclusion of other things. Read and then read some more, for one month, and then see how you do in an argument with one of your "let's keep the status quo" friends you have. I'm betting you'd beat him down like a dog in the street.

It just takes a little time and commitment. You'd be surprised at how quickly and easily they fall.

By the way, you'll lose friends, but gain a life of knowledge.

vox

[pce]

ignorance is bliss, but you never want to go back to it

[Kez]

thankyou comrades, this is a great example of comrades helping each other, and especially thank you vox for showing its normal to question sanity

i appreciate this much
comrade kamo

[El Commandante]

Thanks for the brilliant advice Vox, I'll take it on board, it's so much better to beat down someone with a well thought out arguement than violence and cursing. You get more respect for it and also people take not for. Also you won't get the negative repercussions that come with violence.

[gogo gomez]

Quote: from drunktank on 7:43 pm on Nov. 23, 2001
It's difficult to be different
but what can we do?



oh, yes it's difficult but it has it moments and if you hang in there and dont give up or give in eventually it will get better. because the battle seems almost impossible to fight physically then strengthen your spirituallity and value that the most important. eventually you will find the answers that you need that may not apply to any one else. in other words do your part and as a body has several parts for different functions, one no less important than the other, a body can do magnificant things. VIVE LA ESPERANZE. NEVER GIVE UP!

[Rob]

I definitely know the feeling. Life's hard, and this might be true for you too, but for me the people who I believe to be my friends turn out to give me the most trouble about my politics.

[Chancho]

Quote: from vox on 4:24 am on Nov. 24, 2001
Allow me, for the moment, to be the vox of experience.

I'm older than you. Believe it.

I don't think that it's surprising for teenagers to question their sanity. In fact, it's the appropriate action, I think. After all, teenagers are emerging from childhood and still clearly see that things are not right. When confronted with a world of insanity, just what is the proper reaction?

Many of your peers acquiesce. Some of you will, too. I'm lucky, in a way, in that I came to politics later in life. This is an ugly and foul business, and idealists are shed along the way, or, like me, see the wisdom of materialism. Do not ever expect human beings to live up to your idealism. Che is about the closest you'll get.

Okay, end of sermon.

On a practical level, I've said this before and I'll say it now. When people challenge what you say, you DAMN well better be able to counter them. This isn't just about socialism being good, it's also about capitalism being bad. Know your theory. Stay calm. Stay rational. Stay polite. Do all of that, but destroy the argument against your belief. You can do it. Hell, if I can, and I think I do a fair job, you can, too. I'm not special, after all. I'm just another worker in the struggle.

When challenged, defeat the challenger. Yes, it requires a lot of reading, and often the topic is boring, but you will gain not only credibility, but a great defense against those who seek to revile you.

I'd be willing to make a wager. Read for a month, to the exclusion of other things. Read and then read some more, for one month, and then see how you do in an argument with one of your "let's keep the status quo" friends you have. I'm betting you'd beat him down like a dog in the street.

It just takes a little time and commitment. You'd be surprised at how quickly and easily they fall.

By the way, you'll lose friends, but gain a life of knowledge.

vox


Important and persuasive words vox.

[DaNatural]

vox those were great words my friend. i admire your determination, because u are a worker while i am a college student. you have to contend with paying taxes, you are in the system, while most of us students arent yet held down by the system.
I also agree with you 100% when u say for people to read for a month, ive been reading for the past year and a half, i have basicaly no social life but ive found a higher life in that of wisdom. fom reading a large variety of texts, im able to crush the argument of a capitalist. it also helps that i take ethical reasoning courses which teaches me how to argue properly. i recommend th same to all of u, it is not difficult it just takes a bit of discipline. good luckcomrades. peace

[Moskitto]

I get that as well. I get called "Stalin" or "Pol Pot" and people say "Was Stalin a Communist?" I think my awnser will be "What's your definition of a communist?" so I'll always be right however I awnser.

[Chancho]

Quote: from DaNatural on 6:00 am on Nov. 27, 2001
vox those were great words my friend. i admire your determination, because u are a worker while i am a college student. you have to contend with paying taxes, you are in the system, while most of us students arent yet held down by the system.
I also agree with you 100% when u say for people to read for a month, ive been reading for the past year and a half, i have basicaly no social life but ive found a higher life in that of wisdom. fom reading a large variety of texts, im able to crush the argument of a capitalist. it also helps that i take ethical reasoning courses which teaches me how to argue properly. i recommend th same to all of u, it is not difficult it just takes a bit of discipline. good luckcomrades. peace



Just a comment on students not being held down by the system ... students have to live within and engage with the 'system'. Many students also work, if by 'system' you mean the labour market.

But even if a student doesn't work, what if your education policies are determined by right wing economic rationalists? For example, here in Australia tertiary education is subject to HECS (Higher Education Contribution Scheme). There are 3 different HECS bands - 3 different fee scales - that are worked out according to what the government thinks your future income will be - Medicine and Law are about $1500 per subject. This HECS bill accumulates and attracts interest and you have to pay it off through your taxes after you finish. For me, having done law, I can now look forward to paying off my bill of around $35K - which is attracting interest every quarter. What does such a system mean for those seeking to educate themselves? You guessed it, education for the rich ... or, if you are like me, some serious decisions to be made about whether you can afford to commit yourself to years of debt. Then there are the multiple false assumptions inherent in the policy. Clearly, this is an example of students being 'held down' by the fucked up system.

[Drifter]

yeah, but then everyone will want to be doctors and lawyers, and to many of them does not do society any good whatsoever

[Chancho]

Quote: from Drifter on 1:25 pm on Nov. 29, 2001
yeah, but then everyone will want to be doctors and lawyers, and to many of them does not do society any good whatsoever

Sorry, but I couldn't disagree with you more Drifter.

'Everyone' does not want to be a doctor or lawyer, no matter what sytem you are talking about. Let me tell you, if I could sing or paint or dance, I would pursue those things before pursuing law, for example!

To be a doctor, you need a certain type of thinking and let's say 'talent' in specific areas. To be a lawyer you need to have a mind of a certain persuasion. One has to be suited to any given occupation to do really well at it. Again, I could attempt to launch a singing career but I don't, because I know how futile it would be!

More doctors I think would be a great thing. More lawyers is not necessarily a good thing - eg, an increase in family lawyers, assuming they are satisfying demand, would probably indicate disastrous disintegration of 'the relationship' and interpersonal skills within society. Eg 2, in a capitalistic economy, the more commercial lawyers are needed, the better the economic climate. If more lawyers emerged to work on issues such as indigenous land rights, asylum seekers and human rights, that would be a positive thing.

I don't think that HECS will really deter those who are committed to the idea of becoming a doctor or lawyer, but HECS is the reason that I am not doing Honours next year, to give you an example of how it does deter. The real issue with HECS is that one must pay, and pay heavily, for one's education - I disagree with this at the most fundamental level.

Education is a right, not a privilege.

[Derar]

Does anyone feel sometimes like i do , just feel sick , and wanna puke ur ass off , becoz u got tired of everything that is going on in this world , all the sick things we hear everyday . all the bullshit thats going on , all the politics ....
i think i need a break ....

[CommieBastard]

i know the feeiling..
you see or hear something, and you just want to lose your fucking mind. You want to just throw out your guts onto some fucking bastard, you want to grab a crowbar and shove it down their throat...
but in the end, wtf does it achieve? fuck all... so i breathe deep, sit down, and get on with trying to enjoy myself...

[Chancho]

Well, I'm grateful that no matter how futile it seems to be a sensitive, thinking individual in this insensitive and thoughtless human world, I manage to retain hope. It doesn't take much to improve a situation, another's outlook, a day ... sure, I might be in the minority but if we all give up, then there really will be no point. It starts within every individual. Don't be afraid of difficulties, rather, face them head on and amaze yourself with what you can do.

[CommieBastard]

I gave up hope long ago, i feel that is what lets me achieve things.
if i have no hope that things will get any better for me, i more willingly accept the shit, and get on with what i need to do for me and others..

[Maaja]

Giving up hope is the worse thing a human being can do... If you give up then you don't fight anymore and you are just a parasite. After all you are too young for giving up, CB. But I am quite sure that you'll change your mind very soon. Well, if you don't then you'll be very soon just an old and disappointed man...
Ciao

[Kez]

i agree with maaja, all humans need a fighting spirit

unite and fight
comrade kamo

[Chancho]

Quote: from CommieBastard on 6:49 pm on Dec. 3, 2001
I gave up hope long ago, i feel that is what lets me achieve things.
if i have no hope that things will get any better for me, i more willingly accept the shit, and get on with what i need to do for me and others..


Well ok, I'm a pessimist too CB and therefore I don't have any expectations of others or of situations. Frankly, I see that as a useful and logical attitude - I'm never disappointed but often pleasantly surprised. Anyway, one shouldn't impose expectations on others as a matter of respect.

Nevertheless, I have hope, albeit a guarded and quiet hope. I do have expectations of myself and believe in self improvement and the improvement of situations. In fact I see it as a duty to myself, others and my environment to actively engage in perpetual personal revolution.

CB, if you were truly devoid of all hope, you wouldn't bother to come here or to seek to educate yourself or to engage with others. You have educated me and entertained me enormously with your writings. You are clearly perceptive and intelligent and can make an enormous contribution to the world and to yourself, if you choose to. This is not flattery, I'm merely stating fact.

When I'm in need of hope, I consider the unlikelihood of my existence in this random universe and cannot help but be overwhelmed by a sense of wonderment and joy, simply for life, shitty as it may sometimes be. The thing that makes me truly appreciative is a genuine comprehension of my own mortality. I feel one needs to feel death's presence constantly in order to truly appreciate life. It's also a great way to cut through the bullshit and perceive what is important and what is not. But I know you don't need any guidance there.

Your approach to life is a matter of choice - you can choose hope, humble appreciation, positivity and the revolution of the self and still retain a perfectly reasonable cynicism and realism. Let the shit make you stronger, not break you.

Solidarity friend.

[CommieBastard]

I see what you're saying chancho, but i don't come here because i have hope, i come here because it helps me engage my mind and stops me going mad. I don't seek education, i am only still in the sixth form because i wouldnt know what else to do, same reason im going to uni. I engage with others because it's better than not doing, i have no hopes of anything coming of it.
maybe i'm just a pathetic fool, but if i am then im fine with that...
i think this perspective comes from my complete acceptance of death. I could die tommorow, it doesnt bother me. It wouldnt bother me if i found i was going to die now. I accept it, because in my opinion it is of no importance if i die... in a way it will be a realease.
I would rather i had not been born, but since i have been, i carry on with existence simply because that's what is easier to do, and even if i experience some pain, something i consider inconsequential, i may experience some pleasure along the way, and maybe find out what all the fuss is about.. but most of the pleasures i've experienced haven't been as good as i've heard...

oh well, life goes on, the humdrum beat of existence carries on it's drone, and i continue in my limbo state floating through a world devoid of meaning...

[Chancho]

Well CB, you may be in sixth form, but believe it or not, the interest and choice you do display in whatever, do indicate some love of life - at least a preference for survival over annihiliation on any given day. But hey, I'm not trying to convince you that you're not quite the miserable bastard you see yourself as - if you believe it, you are it.

There seems to be an implication in what you've written that you can't have a positive attitude because of your sensitivity to the sorrow of life. Guess what, you're not alone and they are not mutually exclusive states - profound sorrow and joy - they can coexist.

My appreciation of my mortality enables me to feel the joy of life, bittersweet though it is. You say your acceptance of death leads you to a natural conclusion of hopelessness. I used to feel the same way - particularly as a teenager. Ultimately, my capacity for hope was a direct correlation with how I felt about myself, which up until very recently, was as a dissociated worthless alien. I know I'm just a collection of digital bits to you but if you ever want to talk to someone who genuinely cares, please drop me a line.

[Guest]

"Human filth."

[CommieBastard]

A kind offer indeed, but this conversation itself comforts me adequately, as does the thought that you care :)

For quite some years i considered death to be an option, and several times nearly topped myself. But in the end, Though you can throw away life, you can't throw away death, which is why i'm still alive...
I have had hope before, and maybe i should renew it..
but there are some hopes that though i may have them i always recognise how absolutely futile the hope is, as proven by my prior efforts to bring the hopes into existence...

[Kez]

Hey CB, if u ever feel really depressed, just think the guaranteed joy you will get when you have kids of your own, you will longer feel bad for yourself, but anxious over the kids

LONG LIVE JOY
LONG LIVE PEACE
LONG LIVE THE REVOLUTION

comrade kamo

[CommieBastard]

i don't know whether i could have kids, it is something i have thought much about and am undecided on...

[Markxs]

how can ppl experience joy which is not superficial when others suffer? its hard to not be a pesisimist these days when you think left. but realize its better then be an ignorant right wing fool, who doesnt even care about others! those ppl life there life buy there to expensive christmas stuff, need to get more cash their entire life and then die. all they did is move around objects what they call possestions, at least ppl with ideals can see through that and be really unhappy its way better then superficial happy!

[Chancho]

People, it is absolutely false to conclude that 'happiness' is necessarily superficial and that sensitive, thinking people must necessarily be 'unhappy'.

Firstly, the terms are obviously subjective. Secondly, the experience of happiness is unquantifiable and far too complex to be categorised through observation. Thirdly, clear emotions don't often exist independently of any other feeling but are more likely to be complex mixes.

Markxs, what has 'superficial happiness' to do with true happiness? How do you know there is any happiness or unhappiness involved in your observations of superficial people?

Within your own self, how do you know when you have experienced true happiness? From my perspective, I'd simply say 'I just know' - that it defies description. Yet one can continue to experience new and different levels and notions of joy and sorrow - sometimes what you felt as sorrow suddenly pales in comparison to a new grief. Emotional potential cannot be known.

I put this to you - that if you are a sensitive human being you have the capacity for profound depth of feeling - including great sorrow and great joy. CB, your sensitivity and perception of profound sorrow is what assures me that you have the capacity to experience true happiness. I know in the depths of blackness that I wouldn't dare to imagine the possibility of feeling differently, but the reality is, feelings shift, joy does happen. The challenge is to stay rational enough during blackness to remember that. Nothing, least of all human emotion, is static.

[Kez]

Surely hapiness is relative,
you see afghani children risking their life going to school on smashed up bridges, and they are so happy.
But we have so many commodoties and comfort.
Surely there is another aspect of life to think about?

If we think positively of the future we will enjoy more of life, and be more productive in life.
comrade kamo

[Markxs]

i dont what superficial hapyness is i just no what looks to me as superficial. any happyness gained from booze or material things i think of as fake. its like lying to yourself you have a great life and all what you do is self comfort. i think material things can be good but only if you give it away to ppl who dont have it. hapyness in the case of enjoying music which is made by these fake pop stars is rather weird to, its almost totally sexual and his nothing to do with the excacy ppl can experience from good ( thats subjective offcourse) music. but the reason these pop star music suck is there is only sex no feeling or anything.

real happyness which hardly exists in these days( not saying it ever did ) is the pleasure to help somebody and recieve or give shelter. offcourse you could live your live with your lover and be very happy. but can we live with the thought that everything we do with our lover is not spend to help others who need the shelter more then you or the lover does. i feel powerless when i see the ppl on tv die when those business suits appear on tv
and say we killed another 10000000000 to safe 100 i feel that i dont deserve my protected place on this earth.
my whole life is going to school learn fake shit get home dealing with fake shit. the only great moments are with my girl or with friends. the damn problem everything tastes like a corpse once you think you now how the world works. the relativness is of my happyness is so absolutly not real compared to that kid that gets raped in south africa or that kid who is getting a us rocket on its head in afganshitan. or that kid who throws a rock or gets a bullet in palestine. or that jewish kid who gets a bomb just because his parents are rich bastards. or....... or....... or.............................................

[mazahua]

no need to feel bad my friend, people get different paths, you get to go to school and learn a bunch of bulshit, but that does not have to stop you from what you really are.
We learn about life every day, and you can learn about revolution every day. I feel you, going to school learning about capitalism:

Every man for himself in the rat race.

But we are different.
We can learn whatever we want to, you can belive whatever you want to, but its our choice as revolutionaries to do as much as we can.

Mazahua