Trotsky and the Red Army

[The Cheshire Cat]

Hello, I have a question about the Red Army.
Recently, I had some thought about the milita's in the Spanish Civil War. I think it would have been better if the Republican communist army never had been formed. It would have been better if the people themselves would have kept organising themselves. This way would not only the battle between the Stalinists and the anarchists have been prevented, but it would also have kept the morale high. Because the men and women in the militia's chose their captains, voted for everything they did, did not have to salute to anyone and were fighting because they wanted to, their morale was high. (Not 100 percent sure about this, it is based on some thing I read a long time ago.

So basically I was wondering, was it the same case with the Russian revolutionaries before the creation of the Red Army? I know the morale in the Red Army was low. Was this partially because of the creation of the Red Army? Or did it have nothing at all to do with it.
And would it have been better if the Reds fighting forces remained militia's, instead of the Red Army? Or wouldn't it have made any difference.

Personally, I am not sure. On one side, I think it might have partially killed the revolutionary spirit, for the same reasons as in the Spanish Civil war, hence the extremely low morale.
On the other side, the Reds had a huge disadvantage. They had inferior numbers, supplies and allies. I think competent generals might have made a crucial difference in the RCW. If they would not have been coördinated by a central command, things logistically would have been a huge mess. Also, the Reds had to act quickly, because on the long run all their supplies would have been used and their support with the proletariat would have dissapeared. The Whites on the other side never needed the proletariat's support and received supplies from other countries. So there was little time for voting about everything.

Also, were the Blacks organised the same way as the Reds? Or were they more like militia's?
Thank you.

[Omsk]

An interesting question, no doubt.

The Red Army was not the initial fighting force of the revolutionary proletariat in October, the war on the fronts was led by the Red Guards, which were volunteers who were either factory workers or were former Tzarist soldiers or sailors who gave up the fight for the Tsar and God and started to fight for the people and for liberation. They were brave, strong fighters and their brigades fought off the Whites at the "local" level, but the invading German Imperial Army, a huge danger, was simply too strong for the Red Guards to fight against, they simply didn't have the means or the logistical support, since the main centralized circles of command were in Petrograd and Moscow. They soon became ineffective at protecting the peoples power, and incapable of stopping a possible German advance (Or a White-Guard one.) That was the main reason for the creation of the Red Army, in 1918.

If the Bolshevik army stayed in the Red Guard phase, it would have faced a swift end.



Also, were the Blacks organised the same way as the Reds? Or were they more like militia's?
Thank you.


In the start of the war, they were similar, but the insurrectionist Black Army was doomed to be destroyed, since it didn't have an access to primary industrial manufacturing resources, specifically factories capable of producing large amounts of arms and ammunition. It mainly got it's arms from the White armies which fell back, or equipment which the Imperial Army of the Kaiser left behind. It was also not so democratic, as some say (Anarchists.) it was nominally, a voluntary enlistment system, but in reality, it was forced conscription, that is noted by Paul Avrich. Although, it was a fighting force, : In mid-1919, the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine had a strength of some 15,000 men, organised into 1 cavalry and 4 infantry Brigades, a machine gun regiment with 5000 guns, and an artillery detachment. At its peak in December 1919, it had about 83,000 infantry, 20,135 cavalry, 1,435 machine guns, and 118 guns, as well as 7 armored trains and some armored cars. (Belash, Victor & Belash, Aleksandr, Dorogi Nestora Makhno, p. 340.)

The Blacks were like the Whites, crushed in the gears of the peoples power.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

I was wondering, could you maybe supply some sources for the Red Army being demoralized?
Of course there were deserters and the like, but every army at the time had that problem.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Yes, I too would like to see a source showing that the Red Army under Trotsky was demoralized. Wasn't it pretty good that they defeated the White armies, the invading imperialist armies, the various local uprisings, etc? Imagine what they might have done with good morale:D.

[Positivist]

Does anyone know of a possible military system where the democracy of the guard system could be maintained within the framework of a more efficient, and supplied centralized force?

[Geiseric]

The red army abolished corporal punishment, and motivated its soldiers 99% of the time in non violent ways. The red army had all the vigour of the french grand armee, and its soldiers were some of the bravest in that time period. Only a few batallions had the "blocking force" behind them, which is what alot of bourgeois historians attribute to the red army. But if an army isn't centralized, you might see the same problems with the spanish anarchist militias, where they sometimes chose to go on vacation when they were supposed to be involved in an offensive against the fascists, and other problems with logistics in general.

[Omsk]

Actually that is a mistake, both the Red Army commisars and the commanders executed those who fell back, and those who tried to spread panic or fear. It was a hard period, and such things were not a part of the nature of the Red Army, but a thing which came from the period in which the Red Army operated.

[campesino]

@ Omsk

what is the difference between the red army and the red guard?

[Omsk]

Well, bascially, the name explains it, the Red Guards were small militia-like organized combat brigades which were not good against real armies of the period, including the armies loyal to the Tzar, (Commonly named: White-Guard.) or the German Imperial Army (The strongest fighting force of WWI.) and the Red Army was the organized fighting force of the proletarian state, a peoples army.

[campesino]

@ Omsk

Did the red guard expand into the red army, by conscription? How is a people's army formed?

[Omsk]

Well, the Red Guard units were the core of the Red Army, since in the period of the Great October Socialist Revolution, the Red Guard had some 200.000 members who acted as a defense force and as a regular army, but as i said, they were not an adequate fighting force. For the Red Guards, the enlistment was voluntary, but required recommendations from Soviets, Bolshevik party units or other public organizations.

The Red Army was formed by the Council of People's Commissars in 1918, and the general idea was to create a Red Army : [ - "formed from the class-conscious and best elements of the working classes".

Read this for more infromation: The Red Army Appendix 1 -The Scheme For A Socialist Army" (http://www.marxistsfr.org/history/ussr/government/red-army/1937/wollenberg-red-army/append01.htm) (Decree issued by the Council of People's Commissars on 15 January 1918)

For a good picture of the situation in revolutionary Russia of the period, read this:

The factories were empty, the land unplowed, transport at a standstill. It seemed impossible that such a country could survive the fierce onslaught of an enemy with large, well-equipped armies, vast financial reserves, ample food, and other supplies.
Besieged on all sides by foreign invaders, imperiled by endless conspiracies at home, the Red Army retreated slowly across the countryside, fighting grimly as it went. The territory controlled by Moscow dwindled to 1/16 of Russia's total area. It was a Soviet Island in an anti-Soviet sea.
Sayers and Kahn. The Great Conspiracy. Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1946, p. 81

The Bolshevik instrument of anti-White actions, the Cheka was also involved with the Civil War.

[The Cheshire Cat]

An interesting question, no doubt.

The Red Army was not the initial fighting force of the revolutionary proletariat in October, the war on the fronts was led by the Red Guards, which were volunteers who were either factory workers or were former Tzarist soldiers or sailors who gave up the fight for the Tsar and God and started to fight for the people and for liberation. They were brave, strong fighters and their brigades fought off the Whites at the "local" level, but the invading German Imperial Army, a huge danger, was simply too strong for the Red Guards to fight against, they simply didn't have the means or the logistical support, since the main centralized circles of command were in Petrograd and Moscow. They soon became ineffective at protecting the peoples power, and incapable of stopping a possible German advance (Or a White-Guard one.) That was the main reason for the creation of the Red Army, in 1918.

If the Bolshevik army stayed in the Red Guard phase, it would have faced a swift end.


So you think it would have been impossible for the central command to supply militia's? Or did they refuse to supply the militia's?





In the start of the war, they were similar, but the insurrectionist Black Army was doomed to be destroyed, since it didn't have an access to primary industrial manufacturing resources, specifically factories capable of producing large amounts of arms and ammunition. It mainly got it's arms from the White armies which fell back, or equipment which the Imperial Army of the Kaiser left behind. It was also not so democratic, as some say (Anarchists.) it was nominally, a voluntary enlistment system, but in reality, it was forced conscription, that is noted by Paul Avrich. Although, it was a fighting force, : In mid-1919, the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine had a strength of some 15,000 men, organised into 1 cavalry and 4 infantry Brigades, a machine gun regiment with 5000 guns, and an artillery detachment. At its peak in December 1919, it had about 83,000 infantry, 20,135 cavalry, 1,435 machine guns, and 118 guns, as well as 7 armored trains and some armored cars. (Belash, Victor & Belash, Aleksandr, Dorogi Nestora Makhno, p. 340.)

The Blacks were like the Whites, crushed in the gears of the peoples power.


Do you mean the Black army got their weapons from the Whites or did they steal them as the Whites retreated?

[The Cheshire Cat]

But if an army isn't centralized, you might see the same problems with the spanish anarchist militias, where they sometimes chose to go on vacation when they were supposed to be involved in an offensive against the fascists...

I doubt it. The circumstances in Civil War Russia where very different from the ones in Civil War Spaine. I don't think the Reds could just take a break and go to the beach or something as there was a huge food shortage and much hostility.