Enjoying "problematic" things

[Questionable]

Ever since I've began studying Marxism, I've been having some personal issues.

Mainly, I find myself overanalyzing my older hobbies to the point where I can no longer enjoy them. The biggest one is comic books. As juvenile as it is, I've always been pretty interested in superhero comics, and I never really grew out of it. I enjoy the stories, the characters, the artwork, and how crazy bizarre the fiction gets sometimes. Comic book collecting as a hobby has also helped me make new friends from time to time.

However, now I can barely even read a Batman comic without thinking, "You know, Bruce, there's always going to be criminals as long as capitalism exists." Or I'll be reading Superman and have the thought in the back of my head that the American Way is imperialist subjugation.

I've tried to approach this from two standpoints; a literal and historical one (I'm about to geek out hardcore with both of these, so if you can't stomach that sort of thing, turn away). The literal viewpoint is that superheroes aren't defenders of capitalism (Usually), they're defenders of humanity. It doesn't matter if America is capitalist or socialist, Superman would still be there to defend them. The kind of villains that superheroes generally face are ones intent on causing mass destruction and death, not social change. So what I'm trying to say is, superheroes are mostly apolitical in the sense that the enemies they fight are harmful to humanity as a collective, not just capitalist society. Still, this viewpoint has its flimsy points. I think it's pretty obvious what someone like, say, Captain America stands for.

The historical viewpoint is that comic books aren't written by right-wing old men anymore. We have people like Grant Morrison who are calling themselves anarchists, saying that Superman is a socialist, and saying that "the American way" is too narrow-minded. Batman spends more time fighting sociopathic rich people than common criminals nowadays.

But it's not just comic books. I find myself analyzing movies and games in Marxist terms to the point where I can't even enjoy them, because I'll find some sort of political message that I don't like. I still can't stomach the Avengers because I know Tony Stark is an imperialist war profiteer, and it's impossible for me to view him as a hero. I know this must sound totally and completely ridiculous, but it's becoming a serious problem for me. I know it's all just fiction, but it bothers me. Can anyone here relate?

[citizen of industry]

Just forget about all those movies and comic books. You don't need them anymore. Now that you know how capitalism works there isn't a need to escape it in fairy tales, you can fight it. Stick to economic and political literature. Your hobby is now socialism. That's all you need. End of story. Bin the comics.

(I'm kidding, but only half kidding...)

[Jimmie Higgins]

First, don't worry about it - there is always a subjective aesthetic element to enjoying art - and that will probably automatically rule out liking nazi-oi or conservative christian rock just because you don't like the explicit messages. Other things I like such as some gangsta rap or Scorsese movies don't bother me personally because of some of the reactionary ideas expressed because it's more story-telling and reflecting a view of people who might have some messed up ideas, rather than propaganda for viewpoints I despise.

That being said, beyond the subjective view of any work ("it's awesome/it sucks"), there's a larger objective view which any work can be viewed in. In any creative labor in capitalism, it's possible to criticize and analyze what are the material forces which shaped this work. Generally "the Art world" as well as "commercial art/entertainment" are shaped by bourgeois social relations but directly created by people from the petty-bourgeois. I think this is why both high art and popular art (which are basically only distinguished by how closely incorporated into the profit system they are - with commercial works being "industrial art production" and "high art" being personal petty-bourgeois artisan production).

I think because of the middle class professional nature of most creative work, art high and low tends to reflect "contradictory" ideas. Superhero stories always are kind of populist in nature, demonstrating the kind of mixed ideas in society and the contradictions between the petty-bourgois production and the capitalist ownership. So what always comes across is that the world isn't quite fair for regular people and there are forces which are much bigger than us that toss our lives around like a giant monster coming out of the ground in NYC. Reflecting the individualistic and idealism of this society - particularly of professional artists and writers who's labor is more individual in nature (than say the people working at the comic book printing shop) - the "answers" to the inequalities and "baddies" in life is an individual answer, one "super-person" or a group of super-people have to have the "will" to use their abilities - professional talents - to make the world better: with great power comes great responsibility.

But middle-class ideologies such as populism can cut right or left and so on the one hand we can have left-populist heroes fighting against the oppression of mutants, or early "new-deal" superman fighting against corrupt politicians and slumlords etc in the depression - but on the other hand you can also get characters like Batman in Frank Miller's hands who are a right-populist avenging angel of "law and order" and "stopping terrorism".

Any work of art produced under capitalism is going to have issues - even progressive or pro-worker art because it still must exist as some kind of commodity even if on the surface the message or the intent are critical of capitalism. Art develops out of a society and the social relations in society, to have true "worker's art" we first have to have a true worker's society. Until then as art-consumers we should just enjoy what we enjoy subjectively while also being able to look at a work in the context of society.

[Questionable]

I know you were mostly kidding, but seriously speaking, I don't think I have to choose between one or the other. I've always had time for both my hobbies and serious political studies, and I'm not trying to "hide" from the realities of capitalism by reading comics. Obviously in the world of DC Comics there is no imperialism or wage-labor, just like how in real life there aren't superheroes. I read them for the entertainment value, there is no real political message to learn from Superman. The problem isn't that my personal life is ruining my Marxist perspective; my Marxist perspective is ruining my social life (Well, "ruining" might be a strong word, but it does cause me problems).

[citizen of industry]

Well, people change. Undoubtedly your tastes in art and entertainment have also changed. If you don't enjoy something anymore, why worry about it?

[Questionable]

Well, people change. Undoubtedly your tastes in art and entertainment have also changed. If you don't enjoy something anymore, why worry about it?

I haven't stopped enjoying it. As a matter of fact, after posting this topic, I've torn through multiple stacks of comics that I own. The problem was that nagging feeling that I was somehow supporting the capitalist viewpoint when I was rooting for the Justice League to win, but that post by Jimmy Higgins was very enlightening and thought-provoking, and I don't really feel that way now.

[citizen of industry]

Then the problem is solved!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Just chill the fuck out and don't let politics cloud your life. After all, the whole point of politics is to make peoples' lives better (and if its not, then people who are 'into politics' are into it for the wrong reasons, probably some bone-headed ideological reasons!), so if you enjoy something then do it, unless it's really weird. And even then, consider not doing it, but do it anyway.

[ed miliband]

Just chill the fuck out and don't let politics cloud your life. After all, the whole point of politics is to make peoples' lives better (and if its not, then people who are 'into politics' are into it for the wrong reasons, probably some bone-headed ideological reasons!), so if you enjoy something then do it, unless it's really weird. And even then, consider not doing it, but do it anyway.

can't thank posts on chit chat, but 100% ^^^

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

You could alwaysnread that Soviet Superman comic...

[El Chuncho]

Politics shouldn't get in the way of hobbies, just as hobbies should not get in the way of politics. You need a balance in your life or you become either a complete bore or a man-child. Just enjoy your comics as escapist entertainment when you need to relax and unwind after a busy day of politicizing.

Luckily most of my literature and my films are progressive or outright support of my own ideology, but I also like things like Hammer horror films which have little precedence in real life. Just because you are politically aware, it doesn't mean you cannot have any form of fun or hobbies.

[Jimmie Higgins]

UK fantasy author China Mieville (he's a really good author; he's a revolutionary socialist*) gave a talk at the ISO's conference and it's almost like he's responding to this thread. You can listen to the MP3 or stream his talk here:

http://wearemany.org/a/2012/06/guilty-pleasures-art-and-politics

*You'll get that after listening to the link.

[Susurrus]

We live in a capitalist society; obviously mainstream comics are going to communicate mainstream ideas and ideologies, and those will be linked to capitalism.

Incidentally, since you like comics, might I recommend Superman: Red Son, which is about if the pod containing Superman landed in the USSR era Ukraine, and V For Vendetta, which covers anarchism v fascism.

[brigadista]

Questionable your entitled to your hobby - agreeing with the Boss^^^^ here :):)

[homegrown terror]

at a previous job, someone who knew my political views called me out as a hipocrite for the fact that i have fish, saying that they're the most "upper class" pets out there, since they have never in history served a utilitarian purpose and are considered "luxuries." i felt pause for just a second though, because so what if they serve no utilitarian purpose, they serve the purpose of being beautiful, calming and bringing joy to my entire family, especially my son who spends HOURS a day staring at my goldfish tank. the point is this: if it makes you happy and doesn't hurt anyone, don't change your hobbies just because of someone else's opinion.

[Jimmie Higgins]

^LOL that's the silliest thing I've ever heard a communist being called a hypocrite over. Usually I get it from moralistic liberals who are like: "You're seeing that comic-book movie and you consider yourself anticapitalist!" or "You want me to pay back the money you lent me? Hypocrite!"

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Yes, comrade. Enjoying art and literature often involves suspending disbelief. Dostoyevsky was a reactionary, but a fine writer. Should you not read him. I think getting in a dither about enjoying art that is not politically enlightened is just liberal moralism. It was also like Stalinists condemning art that did not reflect "Social Realism." Enjoy the comics, comrade! And fight for revolution.

[Nox]

Ever since I've began studying Marxism, I've been having some personal issues.

Mainly, I find myself overanalyzing my older hobbies to the point where I can no longer enjoy them. The biggest one is comic books. As juvenile as it is, I've always been pretty interested in superhero comics, and I never really grew out of it. I enjoy the stories, the characters, the artwork, and how crazy bizarre the fiction gets sometimes. Comic book collecting as a hobby has also helped me make new friends from time to time.

However, now I can barely even read a Batman comic without thinking, "You know, Bruce, there's always going to be criminals as long as capitalism exists." Or I'll be reading Superman and have the thought in the back of my head that the American Way is imperialist subjugation.

I've tried to approach this from two standpoints; a literal and historical one (I'm about to geek out hardcore with both of these, so if you can't stomach that sort of thing, turn away). The literal viewpoint is that superheroes aren't defenders of capitalism (Usually), they're defenders of humanity. It doesn't matter if America is capitalist or socialist, Superman would still be there to defend them. The kind of villains that superheroes generally face are ones intent on causing mass destruction and death, not social change. So what I'm trying to say is, superheroes are mostly apolitical in the sense that the enemies they fight are harmful to humanity as a collective, not just capitalist society. Still, this viewpoint has its flimsy points. I think it's pretty obvious what someone like, say, Captain America stands for.

The historical viewpoint is that comic books aren't written by right-wing old men anymore. We have people like Grant Morrison who are calling themselves anarchists, saying that Superman is a socialist, and saying that "the American way" is too narrow-minded. Batman spends more time fighting sociopathic rich people than common criminals nowadays.

But it's not just comic books. I find myself analyzing movies and games in Marxist terms to the point where I can't even enjoy them, because I'll find some sort of political message that I don't like. I still can't stomach the Avengers because I know Tony Stark is an imperialist war profiteer, and it's impossible for me to view him as a hero. I know this must sound totally and completely ridiculous, but it's becoming a serious problem for me. I know it's all just fiction, but it bothers me. Can anyone here relate?

I know this has been said a million and one times, but just remember that Marxism isn't a lifestyle.

[Comrades Unite!]

As the above poster stated ''Marxism is NOT a lifestyle''

However, I do know the problem, It's been happening with me also.
I can still watch and enjoy mostfilms, but when I watch something like a Western with John Wayne I constantly feel enraged because of his B/S stance on Communism and his support for McCarthy.However I make sure that it doesn't happen to often as I am a major film fanatic, Film is an extremely big part of my life so I can't let my politics get in the way of something like Film.

Just try not let it get it in the way of your enjoyment,If anything Marxism mostly gets me when I'm out with my mostly homophobic,Racist,war mongering friends, I can at times explode in there faces and get overtly worked up about some of their remarks, OR at times the only thing I can talk about is Politics so I come home(remember my age is still at 14)to go on this and read some Mao.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I understand exactly what you mean Questionable. Once I started to become a socialist I started looking at things differently. Suddenly most war/action movies weren't cool, half the music I listened to lost it's flare, etc. Marxism isn't a lifestyle but once you turn to the dark side you start seeing things in a different light.