"one mans enemy is a nother mans freedom fighter"

[seen_che]

Many peaple don´t know how importet Che was for Cuba they onely see him as a gerilla leader! WELL that´s WRONG! HE WAS a hero for many peaple, peaple shold look at the GOOD sides befor they open there BIG mouth!!!!




I still think CHE :P was a great man

[FistFullOfSteel]

I think most people on the board already knows that anyway.




PEACE

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 05:51 PM
Many peaple don´t know how importet Che was for Cuba they onely see him as a gerilla leader! WELL that´s WRONG! HE WAS a hero for many peaple, peaple shold look at the GOOD sides befor they open there BIG mouth!!!!




I still think CHE :P was a great man
youre right, he was a hero to Fidel castro because he helped him get into power. After that he ws bad for the rest of Cuba, the peple that where executed after castro took power and especially the people who are there who suffer through poverty and opression. But youre right he was good for fidel and all the others that are working in gov.

[nezvanova]

the people that were executed were war criminals, they were tried in a court, presided over by jurors and a judge. To help ensure the fairness of those such trials, all the jurors involved were screened to ensure that they, or their families and friends had not had any traumatising things happen to them by any of batista's men; things that would make them especially biased. for example, a soldier who was captured and tortured by some of Batista's men would not be allowed to be a juror in one of these cases. I think the bad hype over all of these executions is very overblown. Soldiers in any other country could expect the same treatment, if not worse. I'm not especially for corperal punishment, but still don't feel any bad feelings regarding the executions. they did what had to be done.

[Fidel Castro]

el_profe, it is quite obvious you are anti-Castro. Well let me ask you a few questions concerning modern-day Cuba, that you seem to feel is so awful.

1. Which nation has the best healthcare in Latin America according to the UN?

2. Which nation has the best education in Latin America according to the UN?

3. Which nation has an infant mortality rate lower than that of Washington DC?

4. Which nation has more medical staff working in the third world that the WHO?

5. Which nation does Nelsin Mandella claim helped him gain freedom?

6. Which nation has suffered US backed terrorist attacks?

7. Which nation is suffering from a trade embargo which loses billions for the economy?

8. Which nation held democratic elections in 1997/98?

9. Which nation had a dictatorship backed by the United States?

10. Which nation was described as the "whore of the Western World" whilst in US "protection"?

11. Which nation recently banned death by firing squad, and is considering abolishment of the death penalty?

I think you will find the answer to all these is simple, Cuba. This small island has been terrorised and abused by it's Superpower neighbour for over 40 years now, the only man who is making Cubans miserable at the moment is George W Bush and his illegal blockade. :angry:

[nezvanova]

well put. Bush is tightening the embargo on cuba, it's really quite pathetic what he's doing.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2003, 12:46 AM
the people that were executed were war criminals, they were tried in a court, presided over by jurors and a judge. To help ensure the fairness of those such trials, all the jurors involved were screened to ensure that they, or their families and friends had not had any traumatising things happen to them by any of batista's men; things that would make them especially biased. for example, a soldier who was captured and tortured by some of Batista's men would not be allowed to be a juror in one of these cases. I think the bad hype over all of these executions is very overblown. Soldiers in any other country could expect the same treatment, if not worse. I'm not especially for corperal punishment, but still don't feel any bad feelings regarding the executions. they did what had to be done.
That is a lie. I support the death penalty, but not only did they kill military men from batista's days. People opposing their communist views where executed and thrown in jail. Some of the wealthy who didnt get out in time where also executed and their property was stolen.

And if your going to support the executions of those who where in the military under batista, then dont ***** abot the guerrillas that where executed in Latin America.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2003, 01:20 AM
el_profe, it is quite obvious you are anti-Castro. Well let me ask you a few questions concerning modern-day Cuba, that you seem to feel is so awful.

1. Which nation has the best healthcare in Latin America according to the UN?

2. Which nation has the best education in Latin America according to the UN?

3. Which nation has an infant mortality rate lower than that of Washington DC?

4. Which nation has more medical staff working in the third world that the WHO?

5. Which nation does Nelsin Mandella claim helped him gain freedom?

6. Which nation has suffered US backed terrorist attacks?

7. Which nation is suffering from a trade embargo which loses billions for the economy?

8. Which nation held democratic elections in 1997/98?

9. Which nation had a dictatorship backed by the United States?

10. Which nation was described as the "whore of the Western World" whilst in US "protection"?

11. Which nation recently banned death by firing squad, and is considering abolishment of the death penalty?

I think you will find the answer to all these is simple, Cuba. This small island has been terrorised and abused by it's Superpower neighbour for over 40 years now, the only man who is making Cubans miserable at the moment is George W Bush and his illegal blockade. :angry:
First of all im going to say, the UN sucks and it receives most of its money from the USA so i dont know why you are in love so much with the UN.BEST IN LATIN AMERICA IS NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 4th world countries here (yes not even 3rd world countries, Chile , Costa rica and maybe uruguay are the only ones you might exclude from being 3rd world countries


1. Which nation has the best healthcare in Latin America according to the UN?
Well in the ways of hospitals, they dont have the best, there are better private and probably a couple of bettr public hospitals in latin america thatn in Cuba. As to the healthcare provided to the people they probably do have the best, yet the BEST IN LATIN AMERICA IS NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 4th world countries here (yes not even 3rd world countries, Chile , Costa rica are the only ones you might exclude from being 3rd world countries).
About two years ago my family met a doctor who escaped CUBA, her brother lost his job because of her actions. Anyway , she said the health care was in shambles, they didnt even have enough gloves and needles at the hospitals.

2. Which nation has the best education in Latin America according to the UN?
UN looks a education primarily in how many can read and write. You know in 1955 Cubs had 80% people who could read and write, that means Castro only had to teach only the other 20%. And the education they get is distorted. THIS DOCTOR THAT ESCAPED SOMETIMES DID NOT know the real truth or didnt even know some real facts, because the gov. chooses what to teach them and how to teach them.

3. Which nation has an infant mortality rate lower than that of Washington DC?
Well they do a good job of keeping the few babies being born. CUBS HAS THE LOWEST population growth of any country in Latin america. So its not like they have a lot of infants to take care of. http://www.eclac.cl/Celade/publica/bol63/BD6312.html

4. Which nation has more medical staff working in the third world that the WHO?
CUBA, HAD MORE DOCTORS PER CAPITA IN the 1950's than even some countries not considered 1rst world countries. That was in the dictator batistas era.

5. Which nation does Nelsin Mandella claim helped him gain freedom?
If they did help him , then that is good.

6. Which nation has suffered US backed terrorist attacks?
You must be toaking about "bay of pigs" which was backed by the uSA but the USA did not give them military support, and JFK left the returning Cubans to be masacared.

7. Which nation is suffering from a trade embargo which loses billions for the economy?
Many nations. Like China, Iraq. ANd CUBA COULD TRADE AND DO WITH LATIN AMERICA. BUT ISNT A COMMUNIST SOCIETY ABLE TO SURVIVE ON ITS OWN> I MEAN THEY OPPOSE A FREE MARKET. ANd CASTRO rid of any american companies (and other nations companies as well) when he took power, but now he wants to trade with them?


8. Which nation held democratic elections in 1997/98?
LOL. YEAH, DEMOCRATIC. and why did castro take so long to have these "democratic" elections? that is why so many people risk their life to get out of CUBA, and why does CUBA not allow their people to leave? I MEAN ITS sutch a great country that no one wants to leave, right?

9. Which nation had a dictatorship backed by the United States?
THE USA STARTED BACKING HIM, when communist guerrilas started the war. And maybe before, but we are not talking about the USA here.

10. Which nation was described as the "whore of the Western World" whilst in US "protection"?
Dont know, Im going to take a guess, you say while in protcetion of the US, maybe you mena CUBA when it was protected by the USA.

11. Which nation recently banned death by firing squad, and is considering abolishment of the death penalty? WOW. I THOUGHT COMMUNIST WHERE FOR the death penalty. AS FOR DEATH BY FIRING SQUAD, they are really keeping up with that, even latin american countrias had banned that, lol.

I think you will find the answer to all these is simple, Cuba. This small island has been terrorised and abused by it's Superpower neighbour for over 40 years now, the only man who is making Cubans miserable at the moment is George W Bush and his illegal blockade. :angry:

YEAH whatever. why do so many cubans flee CUBA? why is the country poor,? isnt a communist country suppose to be able to sustain itslef. What did CUBA DO WITH THE billions of dollars that it receive from the USSR? why did the USSR failed. WHy does cuba opress its people?
WHY DOES CUBA DOES NOT ALLOW HIS OWN PEOPLE to use the great hotels that Castro has pemitted to build there by other countries, only tourist can use them. Why are there so many prostitutes in CUBA? why do the wages only range from 5 to 30 dollars a month?

TRYing to say Cuba is a great communist succes is like sayin 2+2=5.

[Fidel Castro]

el_profe, I'm sorry but I had to laugh at your counter-response, as you simply appear to be spewing the typical right-wing arguments that I have heard so often.

Ok, in what way do you feel the UN "sucks"? Would that be in the way that it refuses to agree with the US (despite your claim it is so importaint) in every single matter? Would it be in the way that it helps millions all over the world following natural disasters and epidemics? Perhaps you are of the view that the fact the UN recieves so much money from the US should act as a bribe, and swing it's policy to a pro-US one?

The fact that Cuba has the best health and education in Latin America fails to impress? What about the fact that Cuba has the best health and education in Latin America despite an economic blockade, despite the fall of the Soviet Union, despite the US travel ban. I must admit I was pretty impressed when many governments in Latin America that have been installed or supported by the US count here ;)

No gloves or needles? Well sure, gloves and needles cost money. If there is low trade and hindered tourism then a nation raises less money. Remember here that when the Soviet Union was still intact a Cuban Peso was worth about 3 US dollars, since the fall of Cuba's trading partner the Peso is almost worthless.

When I say Terrorist attacks, then no, I do not mean the farce that was the bay of pigs. I mean the CIA bombings in Havana and other areas of Cuba (It's also worth noting that the prisoners taken in the Bay of Pigs were not jailed, tortured or executed, but traded for food and much needed medicine, only a tyrant would do such a thing i suppose? ;) )

Cuba do trade with other nations, but the US puts great pressure on those that do, that is why the EU is becoming very shaky on the issue. It is interesting to note here that the so called "Land of the Free" the US refuses to trade with "Tyrant" Castro yet was happy sell Iraq chemical weapons and is heavily involved in the world arms trade. I suppose Pol-Pot wasn't so bad really, and the Nazi's who were taken into the States are OK?

Of course people will leave Cuba, can I remind you that when Castro did open the doors for immigration the US were up in arms that he was encouraging a crisis. Can I also remind you that the results of the last US election were a total shambles, and that there is much doubt that Georgy Porgy is in fact the real US president?

You are right when you say the US started backing Castro, strange that the backing should stop when Castro decides to screw the ass-holes at United Fruit and co who had been reeping profit from Cuban resourses for years, despite being full of huge US industry Cuba was no better off economically, except from Batista is his palace (which is now the Museo De La Revolucion lol)

I agree with you that Nelson Mandella's freedom is a fantastic result of Cuban policy, sad to note the US was not involved, though not a surprise.

I'm sorry this is soooooo long, and I will be happy to expand on any points I missed out. I am not going to defend Cuba bar-none, the governments economic policy is questionable (yet I feel the introduction of the dollar is what is keeping the economy alive). You try to knock the Fidel government by suggesting that levels of reading have risen only by 20% or so, you fool yourself and miss the point entirely that this is in fact a rise on what the US backed government achieved! Also remember that Castro did not declare the Socialist nature of the revolution until AFTER the start of the US blockade, and that Kruschev I believe said "Castro is not communist, but you [the USA] are turning him into one". Tell me, if a nations largest trading partner refuses to trade, what does one do? Find the next best thing, which at that time was the USSR!

How can a nation progress whilst under economic siege? Is it up to the USA to police the world? To impose their way of life on those who do not accept it freely? To support the very thing they claim to be against when it suits? Perhaps before sorting out the rest of the world, the US should sort itself out.

[el_profe]

FIRST OF ALL , I am not from the USA, so i dont know why you treat me like if I was an american



"el_profe, I'm sorry but I had to laugh at your counter-response, as you simply appear to be spewing the typical right-wing arguments that I have heard so often."

the fact the UN recieves so much money from the US should act as a bribe, and swing it's policy to a pro-US one? LOL, i meant that is why you should hate the UN because they receive alot of money from the USA thus
they would be inclined to favor more teh USA. I bet if the UN does something you dont like you blame it on the USA because they pressured the UN, because they give them money.




Your answers to my arguments is only that the USA has a blockade on CUBA. WELL IF CUBA wouldnt of helped so many guerrillas in Latin america then there would be no need fro a blockade. Or the fact that they accepted missles from the USSR. AND ISNT A COMMUNIST GOV. against the free market (free trade), a communist country is supposed to be able to sustain itselft. WHY DID CASTRO GET RID OF THE USA companies in Cuba ? but now he wants to trade with the USA.?
When I say Terrorist attacks, then no, I do not mean the farce that was the bay of pigs. I mean the CIA bombings in Havana and other areas of Cuba (It's also worth noting that the prisoners taken in the Bay of Pigs were not jailed, tortured or executed, but traded for food and much needed medicine, only a tyrant would do such a thing i suppose? ;) )

Stop getting the USA into the talk, you blame the USA for all of Cuba's problems?

"Of course people will leave Cuba, can I remind you that when Castro did open the doors for immigration the US were up in arms that he was encouraging a crisis. Can I also remind you that the results of the last US election were a total shambles, and that there is much doubt that Georgy Porgy is in fact the real US president?"
WHO CARES ABOUT THE ELECTIONS IN THE USA, im not american.
WHEN DID Castro open the doors for immigration, you mean that one time where he sent a boat full of prisoners from cuba to the USA? and why didnt he opne the doors for immigration before.

"You are right when you say the US started backing Castro, strange that the backing should stop when Castro decides to screw the ass-holes at United Fruit and co who had been reeping profit from Cuban resourses for years, despite being full of huge US industry Cuba was no better off economically, except from Batista is his palace (which is now the Museo De La Revolucion lol)"
I menat they backed Batsita,i was talking about batista.

"I agree with you that Nelson Mandella's freedom is a fantastic result of Cuban policy, sad to note the US was not involved, though not a surprise. "
ONCE AGAIN YOU BRING THE USA INTO YOUR ARGUMENT, IM NOT AMERICAN.

"I'm sorry this is soooooo long, and I will be happy to expand on any points I missed out. "
Expand any point, you did not answer my arguments directly you just dodged them and brough the USA into the talk. As if it where the USA fault , CUBA sucks. What about west germany, south korea and Japan, 2 where in control of the USA and one was helped by the USA and they turned out fine

How can a nation progress whilst under economic siege? Is it up to the USA to police the world? To impose their way of life on those who do not accept it freely? To support the very thing they claim to be against when it suits? Perhaps before sorting out the rest of the world, the US should sort itself out.
YEAH, we are not talking about the uSA, for the 10th time, IM NOT FROM THE USA.

DONT BLAME THE USA FOR ALL The problems in the world, just like the USA should sort itself out firs, other countries should also sort themselves out before blaming it all on the Americans.

[Fidel Castro]

I did not suggest you were from the USA, I did say, did I not, that the Cuban government itself was not exempt from criticism?

It is impossible not o bring the USA into the argument as both Cuba and the USA are linked in the current situation. One cannot ignore the blockade or travel ban. To suggest that it is possible to discuss the current situation in Cuba without mention of the US is like discussing the fall of Berlin in 1945 and ignoring the Soviets.

I was responding to you argument on the state of Cuba by providing evidence of what is cauing these situations. No, Cuba's problems are not all down to the USA, and I never claimed this was the case, it cannot be denied that many of the problems are caused or worsened by the actions of this nation.

Do not rate yourself so highly as to suppose I am going to waste my time attacking your nationality. I am not anti-USA, I am however against US policy on Cuba.

I must wonder if you feel you have to resort to accusing me of picking on you rather than taking the points I make and trying to

a) disprove them

or

b) create a counter-argument to them.

Let's get onething streight, I am here to discuss and argue, a healthy activity I think, that's all.
Do not take the "your picking on me cause you think I'm American line" with me.

Now try to address what I said perhaps, rather than accuse me of being a racist.

[FarfromNear]

Let me ask you something Genghis2003

How many Cubans do you know that fled from Cuba due to the oppresion and terrible living conditions in that country? How many people do you know that have visited cuba in the last 10 years? Im sure you do not know of many, probably none. I know families who were able to escape to Florida. A good friend of mine is daughter of Cubans who escaped from Cuba in the 70's. When I was younger, I played in a Panamerican Basketball tournament and I actually met some kids from the Cuban team. They would load up on food, clothes, stereos, and anything the could take back because they didn't have that back in Cuba. Thats what they told me. That they didn't have all that in Cuba. They were allowed to take it back because they were athletes, and Cuba takes pride in their athletes.

I sat next to a woman in a plane trip from Dallas to Miami and I asked her about Cuba, she told me she left when she was 19 and that the country is a mess. I had a friend who went to Cuba for vacation and told me that Cuba had the most amazing beaches but that the people lived in poverty.


You're giving us facts, they are true, but here's a reality check, things are not how they appear to be. People live in poverty. People are not happy. Why do you think that Cubans are always trying to catch the next raft to Florida. Can you not see the truth?

[DeadMan]

El Prof. You are, like I was at one point, stuck in the right wing. I was a very pro-dictatorship at one point, simply because they offered what most countries don't, unique power. One man countries an entire population. Oh yes, what a feeling that must be right? To be able to do whatever you want in a country right? Wrong. You will most likely be hated and betrayed by your friends. IF you really want to be accepted here, adleast open your ears to the community. I did. I said I was pro-right wing and I got my fair share of punches, but I opened to the left and it is starting to come better cause it offers what nothing no other political system offers, everyone is a part of the government and the government is a part of everyone. The word Communism just screams out equality, which is better then some jackass sending you to war so he can settle a grudge with the world (Hitler vs the world [and the Jews]). Also, calling people idiots and morons don't fly around here. I've read a few posts like your in the Trash section and the Banned members under there names. I'm not judging you, I'm questioning your beleifs! Open your ears and your eyes.

DeadMan.

[el_profe]

genghis: you definetly did not read my post, didnt you see the counter arguments? wow.

I never said you where a anit-american.

"I must wonder if you feel you have to resort to accusing me of picking on you rather than taking the points I make and trying to

a) disprove them

or

b) create a counter-argument to them."
Resort to accusing me of picking on me????????? why would you be pcking on me, maybe on the US but not on me, your tone on the post seemed that you thought i was american.

"Let's get onething streight, I am here to discuss and argue, a healthy activity I think, that's all.
Do not take the "your picking on me cause you think I'm American line" with me."
Never used that line, I said, I am not american, and dont blame america for Cuba's problems

"Now try to address what I said perhaps, rather than accuse me of being a racist"
Never said you where rascist either , never even said you where anit-american. AND YOU MUST OF NOT READ MY POST, cause i did address what you said, its not my fault you cant read it.

Dead man:
You also didnt understand my post, if anyone can see something from my post is that i am very anti-dictatorship. OPen my ears? I grew in a country with people who loved communism and where and are very socialist, so i have heard all i have to hear.

[DeadMan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 05:40 AM
You also didnt understand my post, if anyone can see something from my post is that i am very anti-dictatorship. OPen my ears? I grew in a country with people who loved communism and where and are very socialist, so i have heard all i have to hear.
Then why be right wing? If I grew up in a socialist / communist country I would probably be very happy concidering I'm the type of person who prefers equality over 1 person being better then me. But you said you grew up in a country that loved communism, but was probably under a dictatorship or some sort of military coup d'etat right? Because to my knowledge, in the last 30-40 years, central/south america has been under right wing influence. Which is what Che was trying to stop.

DeadMan.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by DeadMan+Dec 19 2003, 04:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DeadMan @ Dec 19 2003, 04:55 PM)
[email protected] 19 2003, 05:40 AM
You also didnt understand my post, if anyone can see something from my post is that i am very anti-dictatorship. OPen my ears? I grew in a country with people who loved communism and where and are very socialist, so i have heard all i have to hear.
Then why be right wing? If I grew up in a socialist / communist country I would probably be very happy concidering I&#39;m the type of person who prefers equality over 1 person being better then me. But you said you grew up in a country that loved communism, but was probably under a dictatorship or some sort of military coup d&#39;etat right? Because to my knowledge, in the last 30-40 years, central/south america has been under right wing influence. Which is what Che was trying to stop.

DeadMan. [/b]
Actually all the military right wing where in control before I was born, and the military was corrupt and wasnt right wing in their thinking (i am not sure if they thinked). the only reason they where considered right wing is couase they where fighting the left wing extremist. ]
As to the democratic president that have come since 1986, have fooled the people with their socialist ideas, and then the people vote for them and they end up being corrupt goverments. Their has been 1 more right wing leaning president out of 5 civilian democraticaly elected presidents. The fisrt was a socialist and very very corrupt, second one was just a moron and after 1 year he got overthrown when he tried to get rid of all the corrupt people in congress and it backfired on him because they all collaborated to get him out.
hi&#39;s replacement just was their, he didnt do much. the 4 president has been the best president in years he was more right-wing thinking, but the main thing was his gov. was not corrupt. (although their is alway corruption ), his gov. really did do something with infrasructuere building roads and getting electricity and water to poorer places.But 2 deals in which he tried to privatize the telphone company and the electric company failed because he didnt leave any room for competition thus creating a monopoly owned by 2 international companies (one from mexico and the other one from spain) And the last (current )president studied in a communist U in mexico, his party got controll of congress and they are all socialist. But that doesnt matter cause in their first 2 years they had stolen more than the 1st president i mentioned (which was the most corrupt gov. till now). Anyway, what most govs. have used is their socialist ideas to fool the masses into voting for them, then they get power, raise taxes and put the money in their pockets.

[FarfromNear]

Deadman, I don&#39;t think any of us are really pro dictatorship. We are all Pro Capitalism, we all believe in creating riches. latin America has had right wing influence, true , but not enough. What holds these countries back are socialistic policies and way of thinking. You say that you would like to live in a country with equality, were no one better than you. Does being rich make someone better? No, it only makes them richer. That is basic jealousy of the rich. Tell me, would you like to live in a country were you work 8 hours a day so that your neibhor can enjoy the fruits of your labor? Do you want to work for your neihbor? No. Instead of focusing on what others have, you should find a way to make money and be rich one day. I have met soo many people who have been able to do that.

[DeadMan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 06:49 PM
Deadman, I don&#39;t think any of us are really pro dictatorship. We are all Pro Capitalism, we all believe in creating riches. latin America has had right wing influence, true , but not enough. What holds these countries back are socialistic policies and way of thinking. You say that you would like to live in a country with equality, were no one better than you. Does being rich make someone better? No, it only makes them richer. That is basic jealousy of the rich. Tell me, would you like to live in a country were you work 8 hours a day so that your neibhor can enjoy the fruits of your labor? Do you want to work for your neihbor? No. Instead of focusing on what others have, you should find a way to make money and be rich one day. I have met soo many people who have been able to do that.
Don&#39;t try and sway me you little punk. I was 6 hours a day plus my schooling (currently on X-Mas break tho). In a socialist (I beleive socialist) world, you work 8 hours a day to say, make sure the internet stays online while your neighbour works 8 hours a day making sure your car can get you to work everyday. It all goes back and forth. Nobody loses. But in a Capitalist world, the few rich get richer of the poor. What was the statistics again... 70% of the riches of North America is owned by 5% of the population? Something like that right? Anybody can correct me on the numbers. So unless you are one of the 5%, you are still working 8 hours a day while your neighbour (Bill Gates maybe...) enjoys the money you give him by buying his software.

DeadMan.

[Fidel Castro]

FarfromNear,

I do now a number of people who have been to Cuba, and they have confirmed that the country is in a state of poverty, I have never denied this to be the case. In my posts in this topic, I also state that the Cuban government&#39;s economic policy is subject to question and perhaps criticism, e.g. money generated from tourism is being put back into creating more tourism which is a questionable policy.

However, ask yourself why things such as sterios, clothes etc are in short supply. Cuba does not have all the resources available to make such things, therefore they are required to trade, apart from the trade embargo there are other factors hindering Cuba&#39;s economy such as a fall in demand for Cuban sugar and even cigars.

I have had the pleasure also of meeting a Cuban who in fact left the island in the 1990&#39;s (when the economic situation was at it&#39;s worst). She told me that indeed life was hard on the island, and there was much poverty. She insisted though (and I do mean insisted) that when she was in Cuba she did not live in fear and did not consider her government a tyrany.

el_profe

Much of your response consisted of telling me not to talk about the USA and reminding me constantly that you are not an American. I have read you post again, here is an answer to your points.


I bet if the UN does something you dont like you blame it on the USA because they pressured the UN, because they give them money.

No,I do not. If you take the example of the blockade then the money the UN recieves from the USA appears to make little difference, for years all nations except the USA funnily enough and her old pal Isreal (also the Marshall Islands) have voted to end the blockade.


Or the fact that they accepted missles from the USSR.

Please note that the USSR was Cuba&#39;s ally, and that the USSR was Cuba&#39;s largest trading partner at this time.


a communist country is supposed to be able to sustain itselft. WHY DID CASTRO GET RID OF THE USA companies in Cuba ? but now he wants to trade with the USA.?

Are you saying that in order to trade with another nation they have to allow Cuba&#39;s industry to be run by that nation, and allow all profits to be gained from these industries to go abroad? A communist nation is supposed to sustain itself as much as possible.


WHO CARES ABOUT THE ELECTIONS IN THE USA

You show double standards here, you criticise the elections in Cuba without any evidence to doubt the results of them, yet you suggest the fact that another nation&#39;s election results are questionable does not matter.


I menat they backed Batsita,i was talking about batista.

Yes they did back Batista, then they backed Fidel so as to protect their own interests. They soon changed their tune though.

Apart from these few points you make, most of your post was:


I am not from the USA, so i dont know why you treat me like if I was an american


Stop getting the USA into the talk


IM NOT AMERICAN


brough the USA into the talk


IM NOT FROM THE USA

[DeadMan]

Genghis, LMAO&#33; The last 4 quotes just made me crack up.

DeadMan.

[Fidel Castro]

Sorry, what&#39;s LMAO? :blink:

[DeadMan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 02:13 AM
Sorry, what&#39;s LMAO? :blink:
Don&#39;t worry about it. It&#39;s &#39;Laughing my ass off&#39;...basically it&#39;s saying something is horribly funny. I didn&#39;t know until like 8 months ago.

DeadMan.

[FarfromNear]

Deadman, in your socialistic world, where is the incentive for you work hard? Why should you go to school for 6 years to become a doctor, and earn the same as a truck driver. There is no incentive. What would happen is that people would start refusing to do certain jobs and the gov&#39;t would step in to force it on them.

Second, 70% of riches in the United States are owned by 5% of the population. What makes you think that there is a limited number of resources? That is the mentality that will keep you poor. It&#39;s the same mentality seen in all those Latin American countries. The poor blame the rich for their poverty, just like they blame the US for their nation&#39;s poverty, it is all derived from jealousy. You are just jealouse of the rich, therefore you hate them and their system, which has been proven to work, not only in the US, but all over the world. You also believe that resources are limited and that if the rich have 70% of those resources, than there is no chance for you to be rich, so they should share. There are enough resources for you to be rich as crap. But you keep thinking the way you do, sit back and be jealouse of the rich. Keep thinking that they should give you the fruits of their labor, becuase they owe it do you since you have done...

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 11:47 PM


el_profe

Much of your response consisted of telling me not to talk about the USA and reminding me constantly that you are not an American. I have read you post again, here is an answer to your points.


I bet if the UN does something you dont like you blame it on the USA because they pressured the UN, because they give them money.

No,I do not. If you take the example of the blockade then the money the UN recieves from the USA appears to make little difference, for years all nations except the USA funnily enough and her old pal Isreal (also the Marshall Islands) have voted to end the blockade.


Or the fact that they accepted missles from the USSR.

Please note that the USSR was Cuba&#39;s ally, and that the USSR was Cuba&#39;s largest trading partner at this time.


a communist country is supposed to be able to sustain itselft. WHY DID CASTRO GET RID OF THE USA companies in Cuba ? but now he wants to trade with the USA.?

Are you saying that in order to trade with another nation they have to allow Cuba&#39;s industry to be run by that nation, and allow all profits to be gained from these industries to go abroad? A communist nation is supposed to sustain itself as much as possible.


WHO CARES ABOUT THE ELECTIONS IN THE USA

You show double standards here, you criticise the elections in Cuba without any evidence to doubt the results of them, yet you suggest the fact that another nation&#39;s election results are questionable does not matter.


I menat they backed Batsita,i was talking about batista.
























You want to play fucking games thats fine. You use what i told you of bringing the USA into the Conversation every question and then turn it back on me when i use The uSA in every sentence to point out that you used them in every sentence.

Your answer of Cuba accepting missiles because they where their lagest trading partner is dumb, that still does not justify accepting those missles.

A communist nation is suppose to sustain itself as much as possible? But if they are against a free market, they should not be for free trade?

As for the elections in the USA, you cannot even compare them to the fake elections in Cuba. Without any evidence? oh, cmon, no one beleives those where true elections, what the hell would make you think he would really have he would suddenly want to give up power. AND do we even know who he was running against?
And sure the 2000 election result was in doubt, but how about the other 40+ elections have those been in doub? yes, like 2 others . but most have worked fine.

I liked how many times you counted me telling you that we where talking about cuba not the USA. AND HOW I WAS TELLING YOU TO STOP ASSUMING I WAS AMERICAN , BECAUSE YOU ONLY USED AMERICA OR Latin America IN YOUR EXAMPLES.
You counted 5 times.

Here are how many times you brought the USA into the conversations.:
3. Which nation has an infant mortality rate lower than that of Washington DC?
5. Which nation does Nelsin Mandella claim helped him gain freedom?
When i answered this question for you by saying it was good they helped him. Your response was, the USA didnt help him, WTF.

6. Which nation has suffered US backed terrorist attacks?

7. Which nation is suffering from a trade embargo which loses billions for the economy?

9. Which nation had a dictatorship backed by the United States?

10. Which nation was described as the "whore of the Western World" whilst in US "protection"?

I think you will find the answer to all these is simple, Cuba. This small island has been terrorised and abused by it&#39;s Superpower neighbour for over 40 years now, the only man who is making Cubans miserable at the moment is George W Bush and his illegal blockade.

8 times you brought up the USA into the conversation, 2 in your last paragraph. their are over 180 nations in the world and you can only bring up the USA?????????

[Monty Cantsin]

the Cubans accepted the missiles because the usa was planing an invasion with there own troops, this is after their failed attempted at the bay of pigs.


for more information on why the US would want to attack cuba look at this thread http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=ST&f=8&t=19751 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=19751)

[Fidel Castro]

El_profe,

No, I do not want to play fucking games, thanks all the same though.

I have already told you that I cannot avoid mentioning the USA when discussing the state of Cuba because, now get this into your thick skull even though it is difficult for you, THE USA IS THE CAUSE OF OR PART OF THE CAUSE OF MANY OF CUBAS ECONOMIC PROBLEMS&#33; I HAVE ALSO STATED MORE THAN ONCE NOW THAT THE CUBAN GOVERNMENT ITSELF CANNOT ESCAPE CRITISISM FOR THEIR ECONOMIC POLICY&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

The fake elections in Cuba? Do you just label them as fake because the results of them are not what YOU would like? So Castro decided to hold an election (at which many candidates elected were new) and he won, get over it. Accept the fact that the majority (again I have admitted before NOT ALL) of Cubans defy what the rest of the world (and one country more than others, though I will not name it as it seems to upset you so much) tell them to do. Accept the fact that not every country wishes to conform.

So no, I will not resfuse to bring up the USA, as they are a large part of Cuba&#39;s problems, take away the trade embargo, travel ban, and constant political pressure and much of Cuba&#39;s difficulties can be resolved. Face it, the USA will not escape criticism on their Cuban policy, (please do me and yourself a favour and don&#39;t bother reminding me that you are not an American, I think that subject is really quite boring)

Regards,
Genghis2003 :)

[el_profe]

Yes you bring them up with the embargo stuff, but not in almost every sentence, even with the mandella sentence you borught them into the conv. by saying they did not help.

[DeadMan]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 05:24 AM
Deadman, in your socialistic world, where is the incentive for you work hard? Why should you go to school for 6 years to become a doctor, and earn the same as a truck driver. There is no incentive. What would happen is that people would start refusing to do certain jobs and the gov&#39;t would step in to force it on them.

Second, 70% of riches in the United States are owned by 5% of the population. What makes you think that there is a limited number of resources? That is the mentality that will keep you poor. It&#39;s the same mentality seen in all those Latin American countries. The poor blame the rich for their poverty, just like they blame the US for their nation&#39;s poverty, it is all derived from jealousy. You are just jealouse of the rich, therefore you hate them and their system, which has been proven to work, not only in the US, but all over the world. You also believe that resources are limited and that if the rich have 70% of those resources, than there is no chance for you to be rich, so they should share. There are enough resources for you to be rich as crap. But you keep thinking the way you do, sit back and be jealouse of the rich. Keep thinking that they should give you the fruits of their labor, becuase they owe it do you since you have done...
Didn&#39;t I already say not to feed me your capitalist bullshit? Obviously the doctor goes to school for 6 years because he likes doing it. You don&#39;t go for a certain job because it pays good numb nuts. If you do that you will go into a job that you hate. And besides, if the doctor doesn&#39;t do his job then the truck driver will get sick and he won&#39;t be able to do his job and then the doctors food won&#39;t get to him in time and he will starve. Socialism is where everyone does there all to make the country work. Go to Switzerland (I beleive it&#39;s Switzerland or Sweden?&#33;) and tell me that socialism doesn&#39;t work. I don&#39;t hate the rich because I&#39;m jealous, I hate the rich because they control our society. In a capitalist world, the rich control the masses.

Another thing, what makes me think that there is a limited number of ressources...BECAUSE THERE IS YOU MORON&#33; There is a set ammount of ressources in the world, so in North America, 70% of the ressources within NA are owned by 5% of the population, including the money, the natural ressources and all that stuff for years to come. Unless you are in the 5%, you will see a life of bills and dept and work.

And I never fucking said that they should SHARE there money and there wealth. Althought they should really concider giving some to charities. And when the hell did I say owe it to me? Cause they don&#39;t. Nobody owes me nothing and that&#39;s just the way I like it. You are way to bent on Capitalism to even concider anything else so talking about it with you is a big waste of time. I lived under Capitalism all my life and I&#39;ve seen what it does. It takes out the old (40+ years old) who are making 70-80000&#036; a year and replaces them with 2 younger (18-25 years old) for half the price. That&#39;s what capitalism does alright. You will see in 20 years when you are out of work and nobody wants to hire you because you are too old, then come and tell me that capitalism is the best thing. It&#39;s hard to become rich when after 20 years of loyalty to a company they kick you out on your ass with a family and a mortage.

I&#39;m going to college to get my apprentaship so I can make 70-80000&#036; a year, by a house, a car, make a family, and save all my money so that when I get old I can live nicely. I know capitalism will tax the fuck out of me and my money. If I lived in a socialist world, I wouldn&#39;t have to worry about having money when I retire and being able to pay all my bills.

DeadMan.

[nezvanova]

one of the reasons docters demand so much pay for their work is so they can pay off their debts from going to school. My mother is a lawyer and is still paying off her student loan fees from when she graduated (that would&#39;ve been 5 years ago). In a truly socialist government, education is paid for by the state, so you don&#39;t have to go into debt in order to get an education. The ideaology behind getting paid the same wage as a truck driver is to make people realise that each job is just as important as another to keep a country functional.

[Fidel Castro]

El_profe, please understand that as the USA is Cuba&#39;s chief critic and is the only nation in recent times to support military action against this nation in recent times. Perhaps I could have avoided at times mentioning the USA, however I am not apoligetic for this. Just as you are perfictly within right to criticise Cuba, I can criticise Cuba&#39;s enemy.

Regards,

Geng

[el_profe]

this was an error. I posted the samething 2 times. This can be deleted.

[el_profe]

i am not asking for an apology. Im just saying dont tell me about using the USA in my sentence if you did the same.

[FarfromNear]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 06:17 PM

Didn&#39;t I already say not to feed me your capitalist bullshit? Obviously the doctor goes to school for 6 years because he likes doing it. You don&#39;t go for a certain job because it pays good numb nuts. If you do that you will go into a job that you hate. And besides, if the doctor doesn&#39;t do his job then the truck driver will get sick and he won&#39;t be able to do his job and then the doctors food won&#39;t get to him in time and he will starve. Socialism is where everyone does there all to make the country work. Go to Switzerland (I beleive it&#39;s Switzerland or Sweden?&#33;) and tell me that socialism doesn&#39;t work. I don&#39;t hate the rich because I&#39;m jealous, I hate the rich because they control our society. In a capitalist world, the rich control the masses.

Another thing, what makes me think that there is a limited number of ressources...BECAUSE THERE IS YOU MORON&#33; There is a set ammount of ressources in the world, so in North America, 70% of the ressources within NA are owned by 5% of the population, including the money, the natural ressources and all that stuff for years to come. Unless you are in the 5%, you will see a life of bills and dept and work.

And I never fucking said that they should SHARE there money and there wealth. Althought they should really concider giving some to charities. And when the hell did I say owe it to me? Cause they don&#39;t. Nobody owes me nothing and that&#39;s just the way I like it. You are way to bent on Capitalism to even concider anything else so talking about it with you is a big waste of time. I lived under Capitalism all my life and I&#39;ve seen what it does. It takes out the old (40+ years old) who are making 70-80000&#036; a year and replaces them with 2 younger (18-25 years old) for half the price. That&#39;s what capitalism does alright. You will see in 20 years when you are out of work and nobody wants to hire you because you are too old, then come and tell me that capitalism is the best thing. It&#39;s hard to become rich when after 20 years of loyalty to a company they kick you out on your ass with a family and a mortage.

I&#39;m going to college to get my apprentaship so I can make 70-80000&#036; a year, by a house, a car, make a family, and save all my money so that when I get old I can live nicely. I know capitalism will tax the fuck out of me and my money. If I lived in a socialist world, I wouldn&#39;t have to worry about having money when I retire and being able to pay all my bills.

DeadMan.
No, doctors have been known to make good money.


Capitalism wont tax you, that is the gov&#39;t who wants to tax the fuck at of you for social programs, and for the subsidies( protectionism of the US industry). THat is another issue though. I hate taxes, it sucks. Be smart about it, there are legal loopholes were you can reinvest your money before taxation. Instead of rejecting capitalism, learn how the free market economy works. It is as simple as that. Have vision, be rich one day. That is another problem, I have so many friends who see themselves living in their Trailer homes 20 years from now. What vision. All that you have to do is work hard, be smart, and get it done. Do it. The main problem is in doing it. Ive had business opportunities , more like an idea that a friend presented, we wanted to do it, the only thing was that I knew it required too much work so i passed on it, I come to find out and the same exact idea was done by soem guys they are making soo much money.

As far as some guy getting laid off, well , that is how it works, thats why you have to be smart with money. People dont save. People might know how to make money, but they dont know how to keep it.

By the way, there is not a set of resources in the world, tell that to somebody like the Dallas Mavs owner. Did he get from the rich, or did he create riches. He created it, by creating broadcast.com, who would have known. Look at ebay, look at yahoo, they all made riches out of that. There is no set resources. You just have to be smart about it. Riches do not grow on trees, you have to create them.

[DeadMan]

I have had plenty, and I mean PLENTY of opportunities to get money. Most of them illegally, but the few I had legally would of forced me to quit highschool. It&#39;s not all about being smart, it&#39;s also about timing. I was offered my dream job making 25&#036;/hour. I was only 16 too, but apparently everyone thought I had my license and all but I had to turn it down. Schooling is a far better tool then 25&#036;/hour.

DeadMan.

[capone]

WOW must of been rough