Reconciling Leftism with Whiteness/Maleness

[Dumb]

It occurred to me last week that about 1 in 7 humans today identify as white. (In contrast, the Asian continent accounts for something like 55-60% of the human population). Throw in the factor of gender identity, and now suddenly I belong to a group that accounts for roughly 7% of the human population: the white male. 93% of the human population identifies as either a race or gender different from mine. What this means, to me, is that I am a festering bed of white supremacy, patriarchy, racism and sexism that 93% of the human species do not have in their minds.

I'll admit that the male portion of that 93% does suffer from a massive case of male chauvinism, but they're not exactly complicit in white supremacy; meanwhile, regardless of white women's involvement in white privilege, they do not uphold male privilege. The one-two punch of white supremacy and male chauvinism belongs exclusively to the roughly 7% or so.

The reason I bring this up is that I also identify as a leftist who purportedly supports human liberation. However, how can I reconcile this political agenda while benefiting from the material agendas of patriarchy and white supremacy? If anything, my presence in any sort of activism/liberation effort can only be a slap in the face of the true fighters, the true liberators.

Worse yet, my presence can only be a cancer in activism. Like it or not, conscious or not, I am drenched in racist and sexist crap, and will act on it: I might interrupt women when they are speaking; I might take male opinions more seriously; I might justify a eurocentric agenda, and disregard racial inequalities. Even if I do not engage in these behaviors (and maybe I don't), then my white male identity means that I will still benefit from such behavior undertaken by other whites, males, and white males. As such, I - along with all white males - am complicit in the subjugation of all women and all non-whites at all times.

At this point, I wonder, is it even possible to reconcile being a white male with identifying as a leftist/radical? What value can a white male add to the anti-capitalist agenda? Moreover, seeing as this group is a measly 7% of the human population...does it really matter? The rest of the species can - and will - rise up, and will claim what is rightfully theirs with or without my "help." Women of all countries, all "peoples of color" (hey, nice other-ing there!) - you don't "need" me.

[Book O'Dead]

[...]

At this point, I wonder, is it even possible to reconcile being a white male with identifying as a leftist/radical? What value can a white male add to the anti-capitalist agenda? Moreover, seeing as this group is a measly 7% of the human population...does it really matter? The rest of the species can - and -will - rise up, and will claim what is rightfully theirs with or without my "help." Women of all countries, all "peoples of color" (hey, nice other-ing there!) - you don't "need" me.

Is it possible that your reasoning relies on a fallacy of circumstance?

[Dumb]

Is it possible that your reasoning relies on a fallacy of circumstance?

No.

Because of my circumstance, I am inherently, actively involved in the power structures to which leftists and radicals are diametrically opposed. It would be like a McDonalds store owner advocating vegetarianism.

[Engel]

I - along with all white males - am complicit in the subjugation of all women and all non-whites at all times.

At this point, I wonder, is it even possible to reconcile being a white male with identifying as a leftist/radical? What value can a white male add to the anti-capitalist agenda?


Not all white males are complicit with the subjugation of women and non-whites. While I don't identify as "white" I am of European (specifically German, Czech, Scottish and Spanish) descent and most would classify me as white. I, however, staunchly oppose the subjugation of anyone on the basis of ethnicity, gender, skin-tone, etc. And as to what value can a white male add to the anti-capitalist agenda, well Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin will see you in their office now. :thumbup1:

[The Jay]

This is absolutely ridiculous. Stop trolling.

[Raúl Duke]

Worse yet, my presence can only be a cancer in activism. Like it or not, conscious or not, I am drenched in racist and sexist crap, and will act on it: I might interrupt women when they are speaking; I might take male opinions more seriously; I might justify a eurocentric agenda, and disregard racial inequalities. Even if I do not engage in these behaviors (and maybe I don't), then my white male identity means that I will still benefit from such behavior undertaken by other whites, males, and white males. As such, I - along with all white males - am complicit in the subjugation of all women and all non-whites at all times.In the realm of civil rights activism back in the 1960s, the answer to this issue was the creation of POC-only organizations revolving around the idea of black power (i.e. Stokely Carmicheal wrote something regarding this...if only I can remember the title) to allow African-Americans to control fully their organizations, to formulate their own ideas and tactics without the presence of "privileged" whites, etc.

[Book O'Dead]

No.

Because of my circumstance, I am inherently, actively involved in the power structures to which leftists and radicals are diametrically opposed. It would be like a McDonalds store owner advocating vegetarianism.

As I see it, the majority of white males are as disenfranchised and powerless within capitalism as the rest of humanity. They too are victims of the system that robs and oppresses non-whites. So to me there is no contradiction between their condition as workers within capitalism and their repudiation of and opposition to class rule.

The main problem of capitalism is class rule, not race rule.

Marxism approaches the problem of social antagonism as a question of class, not race.

[Dumb]

Not all white males are complicit with the subjugation of women and non-whites. While I don't identify as "white" I am of European (specifically German, Czech, Scottish and Spanish) descent and most would classify me as white. I, however, staunchly oppose the subjugation of anyone on the basis of ethnicity, gender, skin-tone, etc.

A cow can "decide" not to identify itself as a cow. That still doesn't change the social reality that it's a cow. Likewise, you will always be a white male in the eyes of society - and society is the battleground upon which we operate.

However, the "choice" not to identify as white is certainly a handy tool for a privileged white male, isn't it?

[Deicide]

Yo bro, it's not like I chose to be born white and a male.

[Dumb]

As I see it, the majority of white males are as disenfranchised and powerless within capitalism as the rest of humanity. They too are victims of the system that robs and oppresses non-whites. So to me there is no contradiction between their condition as workers within capitalism and their repudiation of and opposition to class rule.

The main problem of capitalism is class rule, not race rule.

Marxism approaches the problem of social antagonism as question of class, not race.

And Marx himself was a white male who, despite poverty - despite poverty! - still enjoyed material comforts and privileges that 90% of the human race could only dream of. His circumstances informed his arguments, and he did a fantastic job rationalizing his anti-capitalist views with the fact of his privilege status in human society.

I'm extremely suspicious of any white male argument that we, too, are oppressed. We are the oppressors - we are The Man. "We have met the enemy, and the enemy is us."

[Dumb]

Yo bro, it's not like I chose to be born white and a male.

And they didn't choose to be born Chinese and female.

[Lynx]

Can you reconcile being supportive of leftism?

[hatzel]

People talking as if women of colour are somehow immune from Eurocentric and patriarchal thought...

[Dumb]

This is absolutely ridiculous. Stop trolling.

I know many women and blacks, Asians, latinos, etc. (my apologies to other peoples I have left out) who would beg to differ.

[Book O'Dead]

And Marx himself was a white male who, despite poverty - despite poverty! - still enjoyed material comforts and privileges that 90% of the human race could only dream of. His circumstances informed his arguments, and he did a fantastic job rationalizing his anti-capitalist views with the fact of his privilege status in human society.

I'm extremely suspicious of any white male argument that we, too, are oppressed. We are the oppressors - we are The Man. "We have met the enemy, and the enemy is us."

This is really careless reasoning!

For one thing it was not his circumstance that informed Marx's critique of capitalism but the exhaustive research he did on the subject.

Also, by your logic, we can discard any critique or opinion of a person merely on the basis of his personal circumstance. Again, I emphasize that your reasoning relies on a fallacy of circumstance.

[The Jay]

They would be wrong too. Even if the system benefits you, through no action of your own, if you oppose it then you are not guilty of it's sins. There is no "sins of the father" type of guilt that you need to go through. Take credit for your own actions and not those of others.

[Dumb]

This is really careless reasoning!

For one thing it was not his circumstance that informed Marx's critique of capitalism but the exhaustive research he did on the subject.

Also, by your logic, we can discard any critique or opinion of a person merely on the basis of his personal circumstance. Again, I emphasize that your reasoning relies on a fallacy of circumstance.

I'd be interesting in learning how our circumstances could possibly not inform our thoughts and actions.

Moreover, this is nothing like the fallacy of circumstance (person claims X, person belongs to group Y, therefore it's in the person's interest to make claim X, therefore the claim is false) - I'm not actually challenging Marx's critiques of capitalism. I'm only challenging whether it is the appropriate place of any white male to make such a critique.

[electrostal]

I don't know what whiteness is but ( Marxism ) is not against white people or/and males.
In fact most communists and all of the "classics" were just that.


I'll admit that the male portion of that 93% does suffer from a massive case of male chauvinism, but they're not exactly complicit in white supremacy; meanwhile, regardless of white women's involvement in white privilege, they do not uphold male privilege. The one-two punch of white supremacy and male chauvinism belongs exclusively to the roughly 7% or so.
Eh, (national) chauvinism exists in all countries. What's your point anyway?

[electrostal]

Best thread ever.

[Book O'Dead]

I'd be interesting in learning how our circumstances could possibly not inform our thoughts and actions.

Moreover, this is nothing like the fallacy of circumstance (person claims X, person belongs to group Y, therefore it's in the person's interest to make claim X, therefore the claim is false) - I'm not actually challenging Marx's critiques of capitalism. I'm only challenging whether it is the appropriate place of any white male to make such a critique.

I see. So what are you saying?

That white males ought not to take sides in the class struggle?

[Dumb]

I see. So what are you saying?

That white males ought not to take sides in the class struggle?

That based on our social identity, our side is already chosen for us. Any attempt to fight against capitalism only compromises the anti-capitalist movement itself. While I will not speak on behalf of those who belong to gender and racial identities separate from my own, I can understand if a black woman did not see it worth her time to join in a struggle that's getting co-opted by the very people responsible for her subjugation.

[The Jay]

While not speaking for other races and genders, do not speak for mine: white and male.

[electrostal]

I'm only challenging whether it is the appropriate place of any white male to make such a critique. This is now clearly trolling.
I don't even know where to start from. Marxism doesn't deal with what you or anyone else finds "appropriate"... a super-racist women-hating bourgeois puppy killer can be an awesome Marxist. To bring one's racial background into what really matters, and that is Marxist critique/analises, is idiotic.

Anyone who knows even the mere basics of Marxism can understand this perfectly, as it's not really a controversial issue. It's more like stuff bored trolls come up with.


Any attempt to fight against capitalism only compromises the anti-capitalist movement itself.Your should be restricted for this. Saying that people of a certain ethnic background/sex have no place in class struggle. Outright discrimination.
I only hope you're trolling...

[Book O'Dead]

That based on our social identity, our side is already chosen for us. Any attempt to fight against capitalism only compromises the anti-capitalist movement itself. While I will not speak on behalf of those who belong to gender and racial identities separate from my own, I can understand if a black woman did not see it worth her time to join in a struggle that's getting co-opted by the very people responsible for her subjugation.

I'm sorry to have to say this as I don't know you, but this is racist talk.

My being a white male does not automatically make me an accomplice in the subjugation of other people.

Your assumptions are historically unsupportable.

[Welshy]

I'd be interesting in learning how our circumstances could possibly not inform our thoughts and actions.

Moreover, this is nothing like the fallacy of circumstance (person claims X, person belongs to group Y, therefore it's in the person's interest to make claim X, therefore the claim is false) - I'm not actually challenging Marx's critiques of capitalism. I'm only challenging whether it is the appropriate place of any white male to make such a critique.

At the time when Marx wrote that capitalism was largely restricted to Europe and the cities of North America, while the rest of the world was still in earlier modes of production or transitioning. Capitalism exploits workers regardless of race. It is other things such as access to education, treatment by police, etc. that are related to how capitalism developed and where it developed that involves race. Most of these things are institutionalized and not the result of actions of individuals or something that individuals can change. The only way to completely get rid of them is through class wide action in abolishing capitalism and the oppressions connected to it. Because most of the worlds working class is not white, the white working class shouldn't be taking the lead and it's important that we (I say we because I am also white) realize the effects that institutionalized racism has had on ourselves, but it does not mean that we cannot do anything to fight capitalism or racism.

[Dumb]

I don't even know where to start from. Marxism doesn't deal with what you or anyone else finds "appropriate"... a super-racist women-hating bourgeois puppy killer can be an awesome Marxist.

An awesome Marxist...or a crappy revolutionary?


Your should be restricted for this. Saying that people of a certain ethnic background/sex have no place in class struggle. Outright discrimination.
I only hope you're trolling...

If you can outline a way by which a white male can reconcile being a leftist - fighting against capitalism without upholding the pillars of social domination, in spite of being white and male - then I will admit that I've been wrong. I'm looking for a way to make that reconciliation; while I make my case forcefully, it's only because usual counter-arguments strike me as facile and self-serving.

Hell, I'd be very interested in being exposed to the opinion of somebody who belongs to an underprivileged group - though I realize that this topic is of very low interest in comparison to, say, discrimination.

[Book O'Dead]

An awesome Marxist...or a crappy revolutionary?



If you can outline a way by which a white male can reconcile being a leftist - fighting against capitalism without upholding the pillars of social domination, in spite of being white and male - then I will admit that I've been wrong. I'm looking for a way to make that reconciliation; while I make my case forcefully, it's only because usual counter-arguments strike me as facile and self-serving.

Hell, I'd be very interested in being exposed to the opinion of somebody who belongs to an underprivileged group - though I realize that this topic is of very low interest in comparison to, say, discrimination.

I think the conflict you're alleging is mostly in your mind.

[electrostal]

An awesome Marxist...or a crappy revolutionary?
Which of these Katusky was?

You can be a "revolutionary" without knowing shit about Marxism, but it's clear where you'll end up...


If you can outline a way by which a white male can reconcile being a leftist - fighting against capitalism without upholding the pillars of social domination
This is contradictory, in an absurd way too. Ever heard of basis and superstructure?
It's the ruling classes that have anything to say on this, an individual can be racist but institutional racism is something completely different.


I'm looking for a way to make that reconciliation; while I make my case forcefully, it's only because usual counter-arguments strike me as facile and self-serving.
There is no need for this "reconciliation" given the fact that a big number of today's communists (and I assume a big part of this site) are white and male.
But today in 2012 Dumb comes up with... dumb stuff on "reconciliation".
Congrats, successfull troll is successful.

[Per Levy]

so dumb is saying that in my homestate only 1%-2% of the population should speak out and act against capitalism while the rest just does nothing?


That based on our social identity, our side is already chosen for us. Any attempt to fight against capitalism only compromises the anti-capitalist movement itself. While I will not speak on behalf of those who belong to gender and racial identities separate from my own, I can understand if a black woman did not see it worth her time to join in a struggle that's getting co-opted by the very people responsible for her subjugation.

so you dont want capitalism, patriarchy and racism to end you want it to go on and on and on, what else does your "devide and conquer" talk serve then the interests of the bourgeosie.

but whatever you're just trolling anyway, and if not then i feel very sorry for you.

[Engel]

If you can outline a way by which a white male can reconcile being a leftist - fighting against capitalism without upholding the pillars of social domination, in spite of being white and male - then I will admit that I've been wrong. I'm looking for a way to make that reconciliation; while I make my case forcefully, it's only because usual counter-arguments strike me as facile and self-serving.
Using your same argument, how can you find a way that a white male can not fight capitalism based solely on the fact that he is of European origin? Your argument doesn't hold water because not all white males are the same. We are individuals, not a racial group.

[Dumb]

so you dont want capitalism, patriarchy and racism to end you want it to go on and on and on, what else does your "devide and conquer" talk serve then the interests of the bourgeosie.

I'd love nothing more than for capitalism to come to an end. I just can't see how my involvement in anti-capitalist efforts will be anything but counter-productive, given the white, male privileges with which I've been endowed.

[Dumb]

At this point, it's clear the board is finding my participation in this thread to be only increasingly alienating. Furthermore, as I posted this thread in the Learning forum, I ought to listen more than I have been. I'll only speak when spoken to for the remainder of this discussion, should it be allowed to continue.

[Per Levy]

I'd love nothing more than for capitalism to come to an end. I just can't see how my involvement in anti-capitalist efforts will be anything but counter-productive, given the white, male privileges with which I've been endowed.

allright so let me get this straight, while others then "white males" fight against capitalism you just want to sit idly by and clap your hands and let brown people and women do the dirty work for you. let them take the beatings of the pigs, you wont do anything about it, let others take the bullets, so you dont have to. break strikes because if you would strike with all the others you maybe be succesfull but then again striking makes you hands dirty and if you do it its "counterprductive" so just break the strike, right?

[Book O'Dead]

I'd love nothing more than for capitalism to come to an end. I just can't see how my involvement in anti-capitalist efforts will be anything but counter-productive, given the white, male privileges with which I've been endowed.

In which case I advise that you speak for yourself and leave the rest of us to do our thing.

BTW, your assertions are historically wrong. let me explain.

Orestes Brown was a white American who, for mostly religious, moral reasons opposed chattel slavery in the U.S.

Rather than sitting down and giving in to his personal circumstance he took up arms and attempted an uprising against the government. This attempt cost him his life (he was hanged for it) but it precipitated the civil war that put an end to the enslavement of blacks.

That is only one of many examples wherein white, privileged males took it upon themselves to oppose a system of injustice.

Wendell Philips, William Lloyd Garrison and many other white males were instrumental in raising public consciousness about the evils of slavery.

[hatzel]

I'm not swayed by either 'side' of this debate at the moment. Dumb's overlooking some important elements and coming to some rather ludicrous conclusions (there may in fact be a causal relationship here). The counter-arguments seem to keep falling into 'lol trollage lalalalalaaaaa I can't hear you through the fingers in my ears.' Rather than looking at this critically, and analysing the dynamics at play. I'm on my phone so won't make some essay post...maybe later, though. Just...try to actually engage with this issue until then, okay?

[Dumb]

allright so let me get this straight, while others then "white males" fight against capitalism you just want to sit idly by and clap your hands and let brown people and women do the dirty work for you. let them take the beatings of the pigs, you wont do anything about it, let others take the bullets, so you dont have to. break strikes because if you would strike with all the others you maybe be succesfull but then again striking makes you hands dirty and if you do it its "counterprductive" so just break the strike, right?

I don't see any place for someone like me in a post-capitalist world. =S

[electrostal]

I don't see any place for someone like me in a post-capitalist world. =S
Me neither, judging by this thread. :laugh:

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

It sounds like your dilemma has little to do with your place in anti-capitalist struggle, instead it sounds like you are suffering from depression of some sort with a thick layer of self loathing. I would suggest concentrating on fixing yourself before taking on the world, as it is likely your presence in an organization or whatever would be toxic for reasons unrelated to your ethnicity or gender. Best of luck to you.

[Per Levy]

I don't see any place for someone like me in a post-capitalist world. =S

allright now look, if in the usa something big is happening that can challange capitalism and the rule of the bourgeosie it will fail if it such a large percentage of the usa working class is jsut sitting by and does nothing. if something like this would happen white male workers would be needed, not because their white or male but because they are workers. you wont have a postcapitalist society if you and the white male workers do nothing. do you see what im trying to say? unity of the working class is importent, we're allready so divided as it is and more working class devision will only serve the ruling class and their system. thats my take on it and thats how i see it, tell me if im wrong or misguided.

[Ingraham Effingham]

isn't attaching the idea of "supremecy," racial or otherwise, to anything other than the working class in it's entireity, a bourgesie and non-marxist notion?

[Book O'Dead]

isn't attaching the idea of "supremecy," racial or otherwise, to anything other than the working class in it's entireity, a bourgesie and non-marxist notion?

I would characterize Dumb's views as 'white racialist abstentionism'. His views are reactionary and misinformed.

[Magón]

I'm not swayed by either 'side' of this debate at the moment. Dumb's overlooking some important elements and coming to some rather ludicrous conclusions (there may in fact be a causal relationship here). The counter-arguments seem to keep falling into 'lol trollage lalalalalaaaaa I can't hear you through the fingers in my ears.' Rather than looking at this critically, and analysing the dynamics at play. I'm on my phone so won't make some essay post...maybe later, though. Just...try to actually engage with this issue until then, okay?


It sounds like your dilemma has little to do with your place in anti-capitalist struggle, instead it sounds like you are suffering from depression of some sort with a thick layer of self loathing. I would suggest concentrating on fixing yourself before taking on the world, as it is likely your presence in an organization or whatever would be toxic for reasons unrelated to your ethnicity or gender. Best of luck to you.

These. Neither side is sound, because I don't think either side understands exactly where the other is coming from.

[NewLeft]

Using your same argument, how can you find a way that a white male can not fight capitalism based solely on the fact that he is of European origin? Your argument doesn't hold water because not all white males are the same. We are individuals, not a racial group.
You may have the benefit of being viewed as an individual, but that's not the case for everyone.

[danyboy27]

if you fight for the oppressed, it dosnt matter what color your skin is, dont let anyone else tell you otherwise.

Capitalists dosnt discriminate on who they are fucking up to make money; asians, east europeans, working class or lumpen, it dosnt really matter to them, we are tool for them, nothing more, nothing less.

[cynicles]

I would characterize Dumb's views as 'white racialist abstentionism'. His views are reactionary and misinformed.
I'd characterize his view as stupid postmodernism.

"A white person wrote it, it must be imperialist!"
"A man is helping our cause, feminism is now anti-woman!"

And what about LGBTQI? Are are you saying that queer individuals are exempted from this rule dumb? *fake shock*

Well I hope you never support anything worthhile in your life lest you turn a women's rights movement into a bastion of sexism! *insert more sarcasm*

Or this could be the perfect excuse to do nothing and be lazy seeing as how refusing to oppose as system of oppression that keeps all of these groups down is essentially choosing to side with the oppressor. Neutrality is a lie and if someone feels that you can't participate in something based on your race, gender, sexuality or whatever because they feel it compromises the fundamental ideology of the movement, they're an idiot reactionary. It's one thing to be suspiscious and concerned with people of privilege speaking on behalf of the disenfranchised, its another to refuse to take part in a movement because of something like this.

[Dumb]

Or this could be the perfect excuse to do nothing and be lazy seeing as how refusing to oppose as system of oppression that keeps all of these groups down is essentially choosing to side with the oppressor. Neutrality is a lie and if someone feels that you can't participate in something based on your race, gender, sexuality or whatever because they feel it compromises the fundamental ideology of the movement, they're an idiot reactionary. It's one thing to be suspiscious and concerned with people of privilege speaking on behalf of the disenfranchised, its another to refuse to take part in a movement because of something like this.

When the revolution comes, I - assuming I'm still around - will pay the penalty for my complicity in the pre-existing power structures. I will not accept my punishment gladly - but when it comes, I know it will be a just one.

That is my role.

[Lynx]

If you are depressed please seek help.

[Art Vandelay]

Well I am a white male and my parents are bourgeois; guess I should just stop being a communist now. :confused:

[Veovis]

I'm extremely suspicious of any white male argument that we, too, are oppressed. We are the oppressors - we are The Man. "We have met the enemy, and the enemy is us."

Oh, shut up. :rolleyes:

[Magón]

When the revolution comes, I - assuming I'm still around - will pay the penalty for my complicity in the pre-existing power structures. I will not accept my punishment gladly - but when it comes, I know it will be a just one.

That is my role.

Look, as a minority, I hereby absolve you of all your "racial sinning" as a white man. All you, as a white man, have done in the past to belittle and keep down minorities, are now forgiven and you are now no longer a white man who can be looked upon by others, as a white man who's oppressed people because he's white.

Now go forth and be merry like all the other white men in the world who haven't done anything to "racially sin", and no longer feel guilty for what other, completely independent from your own self, white men in the past and present, have done to oppress minorities.

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

What is this, I don't even...

[#FF0000]

Even people in oppressed groups enjoy privilege over others, dude.

[The Jay]

For all those that are taking him seriously, why? If he was saying that he was concerned that his being white may cause distrust with him if he were to show up at a community protest in an all black neighborhood then I could at least see the logic, but he's not saying that. He is saying that any anti-capitalist action that he could think to do would be useless since he views it as hypocritical. To say that since you are treated a certain way - which is out of one's control in this scenario - that you can't stand up for what you believe in is just as ridiculous as how posters have rightfully treated the idea.

[Ostrinski]

White people/men/heterosexuals/cat people/people who like Origin of Symmetry more than Absolution:

Yes, we socially benefit from bourgeois society, but not by our own conquest, not by our conscious desires for social dominance. We are merely pushed into the general current of the way that society is arranged external of our existence as individuals. Regardless of our social character.

The reason that we do not hold any interest against the abolition of class society (and to try to argue otherwise is all but a renunciation of communism as far as I'm concerned), is that we are not culturally aware of our position of privilege. A political position is an implication of interest (or perceived interest), which necessitates an actual conscious acknowledgment of the phenomenon in the first place.

From my observation, and I may be wrong, the only hetero white males who acknowledge that they have social privilege are the leftists who are just as happy to renounce this privilege, and maybe the really weird folk out there who acknowledge that it exists and that it should stay that way. But I'd hazard a guess that most would just get all huffy and puffy and ignorantly get offended at the idea that they could possibly play a part in that kind of operation.

[Dumb]

He is saying that any anti-capitalist action that he could think to do would be useless since he views it as hypocritical.

It's not hypocritical - it's harmful and demeaning to others. If I internalize racist and sexist behavior, I'll denigrate my non-white male comrades. If I do not further such behavior, though, then I still cause divisions by the fact that others will treat me in a privileged and protected manner.

By my very presence, I introduce divisions and inequities. I am a cancer posing as the cure.

[Book O'Dead]

It's not hypocritical - it's harmful and demeaning to others. If I internalize racist and sexist behavior, I'll denigrate my non-white male comrades. If I do not further such behavior, though, then I still cause divisions by the fact that others will treat me in a privileged and protected manner.

By my very presence, I introduce divisions and inequities. I am a cancer posing as the cure.

You're on a personal guilt trip to nowhere.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I'm ok with throwing him into the people's volcano when the time comes, as long as he agrees to live in despair until then.

[Yuppie Grinder]

I am a white, male, mostly heteronormative American and I feel no guilt for being that. What defines me is my class, my productive role in society.

[Dumb]

You're on a personal guilt trip to nowhere.

Not like I'm going anywhere anyway... :unsure:

[Ostrinski]

So since we've established that the OP is going through some odd intrapersonal issues thus rendering the debate here pointless, I think this thread should be closed.

[individualist]

I believ you are taking your anti racism/sexism just a bit too far

[The Jay]

I agree. This thread serves no purpose.

[Lanky Wanker]

Oh for fuck sake, I give up on life a little bit more when I see a post like this...

[Book O'Dead]

For my white male guilt trip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWtCittJyr0&feature=related

[Os Cangaceiros]

Dumb is pretty dumb, assuming this is a serious OP.

Just because you're white and priviliged doesn't mean all white people are. You're seriously sheltered if you believe that.

[Dumb]

Somebody can go close this thread...I'm sorry for wasting everybody's time :(

[Smith1980]

How the fuck do you manage to butter your toast in the morning????? :lol:

[Martin Blank]

Somebody can go close this thread...I'm sorry for wasting everybody's time :(

I'll close it if you really want that, but I think you raise a good point that should be discussed here. For now, though, I'm going to move this to Discrimination.

[hatzel]

Okay, so let's do this! A few points worth considering - somebody else might want to flesh them out further, because I haven't exactly put that much thought into this, I'm just trying to bring up a few broad discussion topics...

1. as I implied on the first page, a person's being other than white and other than male doesn't magically give them some kind of pure cutting insight. Women can and do think and act patriarchally, for example. How could it be otherwise? Were they not born and bred in the same patriarchal societies the rest of us were? They can't constitute some radical exterior to the structures in place, people sitting off in their own little bubble somewhere, wholly disconnected to the narratives and discourses of our society. And given the fact that women are socialised in the same patriarchy that men are, they're just as likely to adopt patriarchal positions (even self-declared feminists can fall into this trap, inadvertently reaffirming the logic of patriarchy, so what can be said of the 'average,' non-politically engaged woman?), so it's improper and inaccurate to put forward the idea (which you have) that men, by nature of their being men, will inevitably adopt inherently oppressive and sexist positions, and that women, by nature of their being women, will inevitably adopt inherently emancipatory and feminist positions. Doesn't really work like that, because nobody's wholly immune to the prevailing ideologies of our society.

The same, incidentally, can be said of the race issue, with POCs internalising Eurocentric logic, but the similarities mean I don't feel I need to address that explicitly.

2. linked to the above: social hierarchies and structures (such as patriarchy/sexism and Eurocentrism/racism) don't exist due to the efforts of a cabal of oppressors, and these oppressors certainly don't precede the establishment of the structures in question. By calling white men 'the oppressors' in the manner you have, you appear to fall for this kind of logic, which is in fact wholly liberal in nature; the strongest critiques of liberalism are those which highlight its reliance on the myth of a 'presocial' individual, subsequently coming together with other presocial individuals to form the polis, in typically contractualist fashion. The same applies here - the idea that presocial oppressors such as 'white men' are responsible for creating and perpetuating these systems of dominance, when in fact these systems of dominance are responsible for creating and perpetuating oppressors such as 'white men' (and, equally, the oppressed, such as 'women of colour'). That is to say, trying to pinpoint a group of 'responsible' individuals is never a radical strategy, which should concern itself with social structures, relationships, ideologies etc. I'll refer you here (http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/jamie-heckert-maintaining-the-borders-identity-politics), to a piece by Jamie Heckert which, whilst perhaps not strictly on topic, touches on some of these issues under the section 'What is wrong with political identity?'

3. despite this, it should be acknowledged that those who have found themselves placed in the 'dominant' category in a given hierarchy (which certainly doesn't imply that there are in a dominant position in other hierarchies, nor does it suggest there are in a position of absolute dominance) should always try to take care in issues surrounding this particular hierarchy. There are plenty of white male leftists (and non-leftists, of course, but I'm emphasising the fact that leftists don't have some kind of immunity here) who don't always mind themselves, and subsequently find themselves slipping into pretty questionable positions concerning non-male and/or non-white groups and the issues affecting them. This happens, it's true, but it's nothing that can't be remedied with some critical self-analysis, some theory reading, a discussion or two with those on the 'bottom' end of these hierarchies. Whilst there are certainly some groups defined by a certain exclusivity (e.g. separatist feminists), the vast majority are more than happy to engage with anybody who's actually willing to listen and learn without being condescending and patronising; I can send you here (http://www.peopleofcolororganize.com/analysis/opinion/10-conversations-racism-im-sick-having-white-people/) for an example of this. You'll notice that (unlike you, I might add) the author doesn't feel that POCs will be irreparably contaminated or corrupted by the simplest of interactions with white people and their potentially Eurocentric ideas...

4. this point is really just a continuation of the above, but it's worth mentioning that there is a balance that has to be found here. One can find oneself paralysed by white male guilt, to the extent that one feels one can never escape the threat of being a massive racist-sexist. That clearly sucks. The other side of the coin would be those who are so certain that they're not under threat of being a massive racist-sexist that they end up totally neglecting any semblance of race-gender analysis, and failing to look at their own positions with a critical eye. Clearly that sucks, too. Avoid both extremes.

5. kind of going off on one here, but you'll notice I've given you the benefit of the doubt, and actually engaged with the issue/s raised. I could easily have looked at your recent posts and decided that this thread isn't actually about race-gender issues in leftism, and is actually a convoluted way of saying 'waaaaah I just feel pathetic and useless in general!' Or I could have joined in with some of the others, just calling you a troll for even daring to question the role of white men in the movement (I can't help but feel that some of the more virulent replies here have actually been linked to this: white men feeling threatened and offended at the merest suggestion that they might need to question their place in the movement and their relationship with non-white non-men. See point 4). Given this effort on my part, I'd obviously appreciate some looooove, man :lol:

[Ocean Seal]

So I remember there was this pretty cool guy who said workers of all countries unite. But hey, maybe if he had met quite a few middle class student leftists he might have changed his mind.
TL:DR; Get better politics no offense.

[Agent Ducky]

Here's a song for you, bro:
kkrHYHqChlI
Don't Call Me White by NOFX
A quote from the lyrics: "I can accept responsibility for what I've done, but not for who I am."
You're trying to accept responsibility for who you are. And that's something you can't do or else you descend into a circle of self-loathing.
Being a white male doesn't make you inherently reactionary. Yes, you have privilege but if you are aware of your privilege you can make sure that you don't exploit it. Some of my best revolutionary friends are white males. Never once have I held that against them. Yes, they don't have as much authority to speak on gender or racial issues, but they know that. White male proletarians are proletarians just the same as proles of any other racial background or gender. So there's no reason you shouldn't support the revolution.

[Firebrand]

Let me draw you an analogy

There are three kids, Kid A, Kid B, and Kid C

Now kid A is a thoroughly nasty piece of work, every day at school he beats up kid B and forces him to give kid A his lunch money, however this is nothing compared to what he does to kid C. Kid A not only beats up kid C and forces them to give him the lunch money, he also goes round to kid C's house and sets it on fire.
Now the question is, is kid B priviliged for not being treated as badly as kid C, and does kid B therefore have no right to complain and should just sit and allow the attacks on both himself and kid C to continue, or should kid B and kid C join forces to overcome kid A and make both of their lives better?

[Dumb]

The only problem is...am I kid B, or really kid A?

[#FF0000]

The only problem is...am I kid B, or really kid A?

do you beat up black and gay people

if no you are probably kid b

[Robocommie]

do you beat up black and gay people

if no you are probably kid b

Jesus, exactly.

Dumb, stop with this self-hatred and masochism. Life is not so simple as to divide into categories of "the good guys" and "the bad guys" and that includes categories of social hierarchy.

I wanted to write more but I don't even know what to say, because something about this strikes me as intensely absurd and yet reacting strongly would make it look as if I don't take the concept of privilege seriously... but god-damn, I know it's at least a little fucked up to blame all white people everywhere for racism and act as though we are all active participants, and all receiving the full benefits of white supremacy. That's not a very Marxist position.

[Dumb]

I'm sorry...and, to be honest, I realize that what I believe is really, really dumb...but the problem is that I haven't known WHY it's dumb...

[Luís Henrique]

If there is a problem with being a White male, then there certainly is a problem with being a non-White male, no? After all, don't males oppress females, regardless of race? Also, if there is a problem with being a White male, there is a problem with being a White female, isn't it? After all, don't Whites oppress non-Whites, regardless of gender?

And, of course, by this reasoning, there still must be some problem with being a straight non-White female: heteronormativity still places them "above" non-straight people of all genders and races. Speaking of which, a non-White cis lesbian is still "privileged" over trans-people. And, oh, a transgendered non-White person is still "privileged" if s/he happens to not be disabled. And so on, and so on, until we come to the conclusion that there is actually only one person who is not privileged at all - probably a blind, mentally disabled MTF Black, Jewish lesbian in Pakistan.

In which case there is little we can do except conform to our specific degree of privilege and enjoy it, because evidently no possible collective action by the oppressed against the oppressors is possible at all.

In this way we can only justify and reinforce capitalism and oppression, not fight against it.

Luís Henrique

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Considering I'm a socialist for the liberation of the working class not the black race or Asian race or the woman population, but for the working class as a whole, I feel no shame in my white maleness. Why should I, it's not my fault I was born this way. That would just be dumb.

[homegrown terror]

think of it this way: my ancestors, at the time of the civil war, were poor irish railroaders. because they weren't "black" they were never forced into any kind of official slavery, but were forced into horrible jobs due to poverty. when you look at the pittance a railroad worker was paid, and then take into account the amount of money it took for a slave owner to feed, clothe and shelter a single slave, you realise that WHITE workers were actually being paid LESS in terms of end-result goods than many black slaves. the only difference in the situations of the groups is that while one group wore metal chains, the other wore metaphorical chains, and who's to say if either worker had a shot in hell to break them?

the point of this is that, at one point in history or another, EVERYONE has been oppressed in one way or another. history is over, it's the future that really counts. don't deny the sins of the father, but don't perpetuate them either.

[Rafiq]

It's about class, nothing more.


Thread closed

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[Permanent Revolutionary]

The philosopher Carlin said some things about pride once. Substitute pride for shame, and you'll get the gist of it:

xDgmjL6z2jY

[Magón]

I'm sorry...and, to be honest, I realize that what I believe is really, really dumb...but the problem is that I haven't known WHY it's dumb...

Because it just isn't true. People have explained to you in this thread, why it isn't true.

[Rottenfruit]

I don't know what whiteness is but ( Marxism ) is not against white people or/and males.
In fact most communists and all of the "classics" were just that.


Eh, (national) chauvinism exists in all countries. What's your point anyway?

National Chavuinism? :confused:

[Rottenfruit]

An awesome Marxist...or a crappy revolutionary?



If you can outline a way by which a white male can reconcile being a leftist - fighting against capitalism without upholding the pillars of social domination, in spite of being white and male - then I will admit that I've been wrong. I'm looking for a way to make that reconciliation; while I make my case forcefully, it's only because usual counter-arguments strike me as facile and self-serving.

Hell, I'd be very interested in being exposed to the opinion of somebody who belongs to an underprivileged group - though I realize that this topic is of very low interest in comparison to, say, discrimination.

What does it matter if im white or not? Sorry but this is blatantly racist what you are saying,



I don't see any place for someone like me in a post-capitalist world. =S

Are you a thirld world maoist, ? Why does it matter if you are white or not in a post captalist world? Why does your race matter anyway and seriously the phrase self hating white is thrown alot around by the far right but in this case i think i can apply that you are indeed a self hating white, by that i mean a white person who sees white people as lesser then people of diffrent skin color

And yes it makes you a racist to see other races as superior then whites , no race is superior to other , anybody holding such views is by defoliation a racist

I hate playing edoctor but i have to this time


I think you are depressed prehaps suicidal and you are trying to find the justify it by finding a reason that makes it okay to kill yourself, I can releate to that because ive been there , the ustifycation i used in my mind was that i would be doing my family a favour by killing myself which is wrong, I have a carring family,freinds but depression got the better hold of me at one time in my life :) If this is case please seek a doctor and tell your family about this,