I just wrote this article

[Ismail]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet-Albanian_Split

Now go and be enlightened by it.

[Drosophila]

Why can't I hold all these references

[Prometeo liberado]

Show off!;)
Good job!!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Why don't you write one on 'jungle music', too?

[Positivist]

You wrote that whole article?! Wow that is really good.

[Drosophila]

Why don't you write one on 'jungle music', too?

Why don't you stop trolling?

[aquaruis15000]

Why don't you write one on 'jungle music', too?

Now that was funny! :lol:

Hoxha was a racist.

[Ismail]

Hoxha was a racist.I'm pretty sure an isolated saying of "jungle music" in reference to Western music is less offensive than insulting someone by calling them a "Jewish nigger" like Marx did, but alright then. Never mind that both Marx and Hoxha struggled against national oppression and that any "racism" of theirs was, historically speaking, irrelevant. Never mind that Hoxha actually did attack racist regimes, from Maoist China (of which he denounced for its xenophobia) to apartheid and the revisionist Soviet Union, or that most of the strong pro-Hoxha parties were located in West Africa which evidently indicates how tens of thousands of black communists didn't consider ol' Hoxha a racist.

Calling Hoxha a "racist" is a sign of desperation, employed by some Maoists back in the 70's and 80's as a diversion from what's important.

[aquaruis15000]

Whatever helps you sleep at night bub. The guy was clearly a racist.

[Ismail]

Whatever helps you sleep at night bub. The guy was clearly a racist.Do you have some sources? I can find plenty alleging that Marx was a racist, and none for Hoxha.

[aquaruis15000]

Source: Hoxha called music made by black people "jungle music." Coincidentally, so does David Duke.

Why do you keep bringing up Marx? You're the only one talking about him. Trying to deflect? Hoxha was racist. Just accept it and move on.

[Ismail]

Source: Hoxha called music made by black people "jungle music." Coincidentally, so does David Duke.Marx used the word "nigger" as an insult. Coincidentally, so does David Duke.

And no, he didn't call "music made by black people 'jungle music.'" He said that Albania's "social opinion [has] quite rightly strongly condemned such 'importations' as long hair, extravagant dress, screaming jungle music, coarse language, shameless behaviour and so on." He didn't specifically mention blacks, who he praised in a 1967 speech for rising up in arms right in the "lair of imperialism," i.e. the USA.


Why do you keep bringing up Marx? You're the only one talking about him.I am? There's a 1979 book (relatively well-known) entitled Karl Marx, Racist. Many people have stupidly called Marx both a racist and an anti-semite. Outside of RevLeft I have heard no such claims about Hoxha.

But hey, avoid anything else about Hoxha by just reducing everything to "one time he said 'jungle music'" since if it works for reactionaries in-re Marx ("HE USED 'NIGGER' AND SAID THAT JEWS ARE HUCKSTERS") I guess it'll work for most any communist who said "racist" or "anti-semitic" things.

So tell me, was Marx a racist?

[aquaruis15000]

Yes, he was. So does that make it okay for Hoxha to be one? So since you worship Hoxha, you will also be one, right?

[aquaruis15000]

You have to love a guy who turns a theory of liberation into a rigid dogma that condemns (and practically outlaws) such terrible things as long hair (!), colorful clothes (!!) and words like shit and fuck(!!!). Talk about freedom!

Enver Hoxha and white grandfathers from Mississippi have the same outlook on these and other social questions. Talk about progressive! :laugh:

[Ismail]

Yes, he was.Not really, no. Marx enthusiastically supported the Union during the American Civil War, he opposed slavery and inequality in general between whites and blacks. He was "racist" in the same sense as most every European to some extent was at the time, but not in a way that stood out and thus not in a way that was significant.

Hoxha's passing remark about "jungle music" is irrelevant. He proclaimed Albania in solidarity with Arab, African and Latin American peoples. In a discussion with W.E.B. DuBois' wife in 1964 he stated that, "We have sympathy for all peoples, especially the peoples of Africa, which had the same fate as our people.... the social conditions of our country, when we started the Anti-fascist National Liberation War, were more or less similar to what you said for Ghana." (Vepra Vol. 28, 1978, pp. 165-166.) He pursued no racist policies inside Albania (unlike the DPRK of which plenty of such policies have been noted.)

How about we actually discuss Hoxha's policies and works like any normal Marxist would? I don't think Castro is a wonderful communist but I'm not going to go on about how he used "maricón" ("faggot") a few years ago when insulting two dumb Miami exiles. And unlike Hoxha's "racism," Castro actually is homophobic and his government actively persecuted homosexuals for decades.

[aquaruis15000]

"We have sympathy for all peoples, especially the peoples of Africa, which had the same fate as our people...

Except that we don't make jungle music, have long hair, wear colorful clothes, sad bad words, or have "bad behavior.":laugh:

[Ismail]

Except that we don't make jungle music, have long hair, wear colorful clothes, sad bad words, or have "bad behavior.":laugh:... which was directed against American and West European culture, not any other.

"No, comrades, we cannot and should not follow 'the European road'; on the contrary, it is Europe which should follow our road, because, from the political standpoint, it is far behind us, it is very far from that for which Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin fought, and for which our Party fights today."
(Enver Hoxha. On the Further Revolutionization of the Party and the Whole Life of the Country. Tirana: 8 Nëntori Publishing House. 1974. p. 261.)

"Of what fight against bourgeois ideology can the Soviet revisionists speak while revisionism is nothing else by a manifestation of the bourgeois ideology in theory and practice, while egoism and individualism, the running after money and other material benefits are thriving in the Soviet Union, while careerseeking and bureaucratism, technocratism, economism and intellectualism are developing, while villas, motor-cars and beautiful women have become the supreme ideal of men, while literature and art attack socialism, everything revolutionary, and advocate pacifism and bourgeois humanism, the empty and dissolute living of people thinking only of themselves, while hundreds of thousands of western tourists that visit the Soviet Union every year, spread the bourgeois ideology and way of life there, while western films cover the screens of the Soviet cinema halls, while the American orchestras and jazz bands and those of the other capitalist countries have become the favorite orchestras of the youth, and while parades of western fashions are in vogue in the Soviet Union? If until yesterday the various manifestations of bourgeois ideology could be called remnants of the past, today bourgeois ideology has become a component part of the capitalist superstructure which rests on the state capitalist foundation which has now been established in the Soviet Union."
(Enver Hoxha. The Party of Labor of Albania in Battle with Modern Revisionism. Tirana: 8 Nëntori Publishing House. 1972. pp. 508-509.)

[aquaruis15000]

Long hair was the downfall of the Communist Bloc.

[Ismail]

Long hair was the downfall of the Communist Bloc.According to Ramiz Alia in January 1990, "The counter-revolutionary process in the countries of the East has been accomplished through the urging and intervention of western reaction and the Soviet Union. But it has been supported also by the masses of working people who have become disillusioned by the revisionist rule, by its bureaucracy and violence and the economic stagnation. The worst of it is that the peoples of those countries see these phenomena as products of the socialist system, of Marxism-Leninism... Comrade Enver Hoxha pointed out that one of the main sources which influenced the birth and development of revisionism was bureaucracy and liberalism." (The Deepening of the Revolutionization of the Life of the Party and the Country, pp. 4-5.)

[aquaruis15000]

Hoxha's children abandoned M-L and became social democrats.

[Ismail]

Hoxha's children abandoned M-L and became social democrats.Actually to my knowledge they do consider themselves leftists. Ilir Hoxha strongly defends his father and is associated with Albania's Communist movement. Sokol Hoxha was attacked in Brazilian media a few years back for supporting, IIRC, either the PCdoB (which used to be pro-Hoxha) or the PT (which is allied with the PCdoB.) Nexhmije Hoxha (Enver's wife) considers herself a communist still (although she obviously doesn't share his "hardline" views on Marxism-Leninism, etc.)

[aquaruis15000]

Hoxha's children = his party, including his hand picked successor who became a capitalist executive.

[Ismail]

Well yes, Alia became a more "hardline" version of Gorby basically (sorta like Egon Krenz), but for what it's worth he still did defend Hoxha's overall legacy to the end (e.g. in his memoirs he wrote in 2010.) At the PLA's last congress in June 1991 he said that, "I wish to stress once again that Enver Hoxha is a historical personality with strong roots in the people, and that history does not judge with the mentality of manipulated crowds. Statues may be removed, but the figure of Enver Hoxha cannot be toppled, because he personifies the biography of the people and the history of new Albania. The APL and the entire Albanian people are proud to have had a leader like Comrade Enver." (Albania in Transition, p. 94.)

Also, speaking of Nexhmije, from a book published around 10 years ago, based on a prison interview from 1997:

"Nexhmije spoke as if Enver were still alive. As if Communism were still alive. 'I have always been an idealist. I am old and tired now, but prison has not changed my way of thinking. Enver and I will always be trust Marxists. We believe in it, we have always believed in it.' She paused and, glancing out the window as if she could see the office of the hated Sali Berisha, formerly the Hoxha family's doctor, said with disgust, 'Those people believe in nothing, only in dollars.'" (Talk of the Devil: Encounters with Seven Dictators, p. 100.)

[aquaruis15000]

So the main thing was to preserve Hoxha himself, and especially his cult and reputation. That stuff about liberation and communism was all secondary to that. Good show chap.

[Ismail]

So the main thing was to preserve Hoxha himself, and especially his cult and reputation. That stuff about liberation and communism was all secondary to that. Good show chap.Obviously in a society where Hoxha is attacked as a source for all evil his family members and those who worked with him are generally going to be pretty anxious to defend his good name. Recently a "biography" of Hoxha came out that alleges he was a homosexual who later killed his gay lovers, an agent in King Zog's intelligence service, a bad student, a poor fighter, and all-around evil, and it has been endorsed by both Sali Berisha and Hashim Thaçi, so there's been renewed efforts by said family to defend Hoxha as of late. Nexhmije and others defend the socialist period as well, even though their views are a lot more "nuanced" than Enver's own.

There is an Albanian communist movement that, you know, tries to popularize Marxism and whatnot. The main Albanian website dedicated to Hoxha and his works has a section on the works of the classics as well: http://enver-hoxha.net/content/content_shqip/librat/libra_te_tjere/librat-klasiket_e_m-l.htm

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

On-topic: Great article!

Now I'm going to let you two discuss Hoxha "racism" further.:rolleyes:

[aquaruis15000]

The main thing though is that there is no jungle music in Albania. And bunkers. That's the main thing.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

You must keep in mind that a lot of the older people in the west also were highly opposed to long-hair, and the new music. So this isn't necessarily something that only Hoxha had problems with.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

The main thing though is that there is no jungle music in Albania. And bunkers. That's the main thing.

How dare that bastard? Wanting to defend his own people, disgusting!

[aquaruis15000]

You must keep in mind that a lot of the older people in the west also were highly opposed to long-hair, and the new music. So this isn't necessarily something that only Hoxha had problems with.

Yeah, like I said, "Enver Hoxha and white grandfathers from Mississippi have the same outlook on these and other social questions." That's the mark of a true forward looking communist leader! What would the proletariat have done without this guy?

[aquaruis15000]

I don't think Castro is a wonderful communist but I'm not going to go on about how he used "maricón" ("faggot") a few years ago when insulting two dumb Miami exiles.

Proof?


And unlike Hoxha's "racism," Castro actually is homophobic and his government actively persecuted homosexuals for decades.

Which is why Raul's daughter is in charge of the country's sexual policies. You know, the same daughter who leads annual gay and trans pride parades and has successfully changed the healthcare codes so that sexual reassignment surgery is now covered by the national plan.

Speaking of Miami exiles. You are repeating their bullshit about homophobia. In fact there was never any policy against homosexuals. Some thought homosexuals should not be in the military so they contributed to the military effort through civil camps were all sorts of others also pitched in (women, youths). It wasn't punishment, and Castro later apologized for this over and over.

Cuban society is most certainly homophobic but that can't be changed overnight. At least the leadership, when it claims to be communist, should not be.

[aquaruis15000]

How dare that bastard? Wanting to defend his own people, disgusting!

From themselves? Half the bunkers were pointed at the cities of Albania.

[Ismail]

From themselves? Half the bunkers were pointed at the cities of Albania.Do you have a reliable source? No work I've read on the subject of Albania mentions that.


Proof?http://www.latinamericanstudies.org/fidel/transcript.htm

[aquaruis15000]

Hey guy. You really expect me to believe two gusano Miami DJs radio skit?

[Ismail]

I've seen nothing arguing it was fake. Maybe you can debunk it.

[aquaruis15000]

Aren't you the man of a million (Stalinoid revisionist) sources? Prove this was actually Castro. This is the equivalent of me asking you to believe a short story by Conquest on Stalin and Hoxha's homosexual love affair.

[aquaruis15000]

"Albanian virginity is lost in a Hoxha bunker as often as American virginity was once lost in the back seats of cars." - Tony Wheeler

[Ismail]

Aren't you the man of a million (Stalinoid revisionist) sources? Prove this was actually Castro. This is the equivalent of me asking you to believe a short story by Conquest on Stalin and Hoxha's homosexual love affair.There are recordings of the prank call and various sources of it online. You'd think if it was fake someone would have noted it by now.

[aquaruis15000]

Why did Hoxha jail Bashkim Shehu after his dad was assassinated?

[Ismail]

Why did Hoxha jail Bashkim Shehu after his dad was assassinated?Hoxha stated in his speech to the Plenum of the Central Committee on the issue that Shehu had had one of his sons set up a radio to contact the CIA (if I recall right) and the son admitted that he had indeed set up the radio and was allowed to go home to hand over the parts, but then used the opportunity to kill himself as well. Mehmet Shehu's wife Fiqret was considered to have been involved in the conspiracy. I assume Bashkim was also accused and, with his dad, mom, and other brother having conspired to overthrow the government, was probably seen as having been involved.

You can find the speech here: http://www.enverhoxha.ru/Archive_of_books/English/enver_hoxha_selected_works_volume_VI_eng.pdf
(go to PDF page 582)

It should be noted that Bashkim Shehu today is apparently an anti-communist.

[aquaruis15000]

Lol, sounds like a fucking kung fu movie. Kill the dad, make it look like suicide, then jail his entire family to prevent retribution. Maybe Hoxha was getting Hong Kong flicks from Mao before they broke up.


It should be noted that Bashkim Shehu today is apparently an anti-communist.

I wonder why :rolleyes: What'd you expect him to be? A Hoxhaite? Hoxha's own hand picked successor (and his entire party!) became a bourgeois politician right after he kicked the bucket.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Lol, sounds like a fucking kung fu movie. Kill the dad, make it look like suicide, then jail his entire family to prevent retribution. Maybe Hoxha was getting Hong Kong flicks from Mao before they broke up.



I wonder why :rolleyes:

Why are you so certain that he was killed?
I have yet to see you bring up proof that it wasn't suicide.

[aquaruis15000]

Proof that it wasn't suicide. :laugh:

That's reverse of the scientific process right?

Sorry, I don't buy Hoxha's line that he was such an opportunist that he took his own life. Mostly because all of the leading veterans of the Albanian resistance were killed by Hoxha's regime. Just like his hero Stalin did with the Old Bolshies!

You're telling me the #2 guy of the regime from the very beginning suddenly became a sp y for Tito, the KGB and the CIA *AT THE SAME TIME* and then decided to blow his own brains out? LOLWUT

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Proof that it wasn't suicide. :laugh:

That's reverse of the scientific process right?

Sorry, I don't buy Hoxha's line that he was such an opportunist that he took his own life. Mostly because all of the leading veterans of the Albanian resistance were killed by Hoxha's regime. Just like his hero Stalin did with the Old Bolshies!

You're telling me the #2 guy of the regime from the very beginning suddenly became a sp y for Tito, the KGB and the CIA *AT THE SAME TIME* and then decided to blow his own brains out? LOLWUT

Oh, I don't know much about this. However I want to see proof for what you are saying rather than just statements from you.

[aquaruis15000]

Read a book. What do I look like a fucking library? Or your personal researcher?

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Read a book. What do I look like a fucking library? Or your personal researcher?

You are the one stating it here, I would epect you atleast had some proof.
But you are just another troll, who keeps spewing nonsense without any proof.

[aquaruis15000]

Actually, I'm not stating anything. You are the one making a positive assertion: It was suicide.

The facts say otherwise.

[aquaruis15000]

Shehu was considered to be Enver Hoxha's right hand man and the second most important person in Albania. For 40 years Hoxha was Shehu's friend and closest comrade. Shehu was one of those who prepared the Chinese-Albanian alliance and the break with the Soviet Union (December 1961). It is claimed that in 1981 Shehu opposed Enver Hoxha's isolationism. He was accused of being a Yugoslav spy.
On December 17, 1981, he was found dead in his bedroom in Tirana with a bullet wound to his head. According to the official announcement (December 18), he had committed suicide in a nervous breakdown. This was a crime under Albanian law. Shehu was declared to be a "people's enemy" and was buried in a wasteland near the village of Ndroq near Tirana. Shehu's son later launched a campaign to prove that his father had, in fact, been murdered. After his death Shehu was claimed to have been an agent of not only the Yugoslav secret services, but also the CIA and the KGB. In Hoxha's book Titoites (1982) several chapters are dedicated to Shehu's denunciation. Shehu disappeared from the official communist history of Albania. Shehu's widow Fiqerete (born Sanxhaktari) and two of his sons were arrested without any explanation and later imprisoned on different pretexts.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Shehu was considered to be Enver Hoxha's right hand man and the second most important person in Albania. For 40 years Hoxha was Shehu's friend and closest comrade. Shehu was one of those who prepared the Chinese-Albanian alliance and the break with the Soviet Union (December 1961). It is claimed that in 1981 Shehu opposed Enver Hoxha's isolationism. He was accused of being a Yugoslav spy.
On December 17, 1981, he was found dead in his bedroom in Tirana with a bullet wound to his head. According to the official announcement (December 18), he had committed suicide in a nervous breakdown. This was a crime under Albanian law. Shehu was declared to be a "people's enemy" and was buried in a wasteland near the village of Ndroq near Tirana. Shehu's son later launched a campaign to prove that his father had, in fact, been murdered. After his death Shehu was claimed to have been an agent of not only the Yugoslav secret services, but also the CIA and the KGB. In Hoxha's book Titoites (1982) several chapters are dedicated to Shehu's denunciation. Shehu disappeared from the official communist history of Albania. Shehu's widow Fiqerete (born Sanxhaktari) and two of his sons were arrested without any explanation and later imprisoned on different pretexts.

Yeah, wikipedia isn't proof. Nice try though.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Actually, I'm not stating anything. You are the one making a positive assertion: It was suicide.

The facts say otherwise.

What facts? If you are talking about facts include those.
Also I have not once stated in this thread that I know if it was or wasn't suicide.