My opinion on the palestinian issue

[TheRedJew]

Some of you might think that I support the Israeli oppression of Palestinians because I tend to support Zionism, so I want to clarify my opinion in things.
I think that the most optimal solution for the Palestinian issue is creating two socialist republics that will operate as a single entity, kind of like how the Soviet Union was a single country made out of different ssr's.
One of the republics will be called something like "Israeli people's republic" and the second one could be called something like Palestinian People's Republic" (very original, I know) and the union could be called "the cnaanic socialist union" or something, and the capital of both republics will be Jerusalem.
All religions would be accepted in the CSU and all Arabs and Jews are welcomed to migrate into it, as well any refugee from Africa.
That is MY opinion on what is the optimal situation, and I will soon post what I think about the current support from the left of Palestinian organizations.
Thank you for taking the time to read this

[Comrade Trollface]

Utopian aspirations are all well and good (and I would argue quite essential), but our must immediate duty today is to support the Palestinian struggle for human rights and self determination. We must bring pressure to bear on the Israeli state to end its repressive and racist policies.

[TheRedJew]

Utopian aspirations are all well and good (and I would argue quite essential), but our must immediate duty today is to support the Palestinian struggle for human rights and self determination. We must bring pressure to bear on the Israeli state to end its repressive and racist policies.

while i agree that we should press israel to remove its racist policies, i dont think we should press israel to liberate palestine, and that is what my next posts will be about

[Comrade Trollface]

So you support the imperialist occupation of Palistine?

[TheRedJew]

So you support the imperialist occupation of Palistine?

i didn't say anything like that and i said preety much the opposite, why don't you wait until i post the next thread?

[Halleluhwah]

Because a thread titled "My opinion on the palestinian issue" isn't the right place for that discussion? :confused:

[TheRedJew]

Because a thread titled "My opinion on the palestinian issue" isn't the right place for that discussion? :confused:

no, because i was going to explain just this on a diffrent thread, did you not read what i wrote?

[hatzel]

You shouldn't do it in another thread, though. We don't need half a dozen threads of you talking about your thoughts about slightly different things, clogging up the boards; if you want to tell us your various opinions on the Palestinian issue, this is the thread for it.

[Prometeo liberado]

while i agree that we should press Israel to remove its racist policies, i dont think we should press Israel to liberate palestine, and that is what my next posts will be about

You can't have it both ways. Your thought process seems to be clouded by some sort of allegiance to Zionism or maybe a belief that the Palestinians are not worthy of equality with the occupiers. Whatever the case, this is the time and place to set the record straight.

[TheRedJew]

well it is not exactly about it but fine, i will do it here.
i also want to talk aboutthe protests in israel and why we should support it, where do i post about that?

[TheRedJew]

Now, I think that if Palestine will be liberated, the result would be an Islamic reactionary dictatorship led by Hamas or Fatah.
The reason I think that will be the case is because socialist movements in Palestine are really weak, and most Palestinians will support an Islamic regime that will probably be in constant war with Israel, and will oppress minorities, different religions and women like most Islamic nations.
The most probable way Palestine will be socialist is if Israel will be socialist too, and will liberate Palestine as its puppet or as a Union state like I posted before.
Let's say that Palestine is socialist and Israel is not, Palestine will starve economically as Israel will probably embargo them and will get USA to do the same.
Also, the current Hamas leadership is not capable of sustaining a country and will lead their citizens to poverty and war.
That is why I don’t think you should support Palestinian liberation movement unless they are leftist.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Don't talk to these people about this issue. They just play devil's advocate, while deploying constant fallacies.

It is fair to equate them with common charlatans.

[Ocean Seal]

By the time we create a socialist republic in Israel/Palestine I'm pretty sure that the differences will have died down considerably. Saying that its probably going to be a while before socialist revolution reaches Palestine.

[TheRedJew]

Well that is why I am here for

[Permanent Revolutionary]

i didn't say anything like that and i said preety much the opposite, why don't you wait until i post the next thread?

I'm sorry, but you kinda did. You stated that Israel should not liberate Palestine (although this is logically false, because Israel is part of Palestine, but I digress...).
You further stated that Israel must keep its grips on Gaza and the West Bank, because otherwise the "fascists" from Hamas and Fatah will take over, which I see as a "white man's burden" type of argument.

But please do clarify further.

[TheRedJew]

I'm sorry, but you kinda did. You stated that Israel should not liberate Palestine (although this is logically false, because Israel is part of Palestine, but I digress...).
You further stated that Israel must keep its grips on Gaza and the West Bank, because otherwise the "fascists" from Hamas and Fatah will take over, which I see as a "white man's burden" type of argument.

But please do clarify further.
I didn't say that Israel should keep gaza forever, the situation can be resolved Only if a legitamta leadership rise in both camps

[Permanent Revolutionary]

So it is for the Israelis to decide when the Palestinians get a good enough leadership, and are "ready" to stand on its own feet. How quaint.

[Leftsolidarity]

Da fok is this?

You support Zionism? You don't agree with Palestinan liberation?

Even your utopian dreams suck.

Israel is an racist imperialist settler state.

[TheRedJew]

I had enough of this.
All of the leftists I knew before were good people who don't judge other leftists.
I know facists who treat me better then people here so you all can fuck off.
You are the reason socialism fails in israel

[seventeethdecember2016]

Stop employing Strawman fallacies! You idiots know that he doesn't support either Zionism, nor Imperialism.

It is time to respect the existence of the Israeli state, along with a new relationship between their Semitic neighbors- the Arabs.

We support National Self Determination!

[Leftsolidarity]

I had enough of this.
All of the leftists I knew before were good people who don't judge other leftists.
I know facists who treat me better then people here so you all can fuck off.
You are the reason socialism fails in israel

Why would I not judge the fact that you support Zionism and the state of Israel?

Of course fascists love you. Your basically siblings.

[TheRedJew]

Why would I not judge the fact that you support Zionism and the state of Israel?

Of course fascists love you. Your basically siblings.

That's it mother fucker, How dare you call me a facist?
You are a disgrace for socialism. Calling a communist facist just because you disagree with him is the lowest thing a leftist can do

[Permanent Revolutionary]

That's it mother fucker, How dare you call me a facist?
You are a disgrace for socialism. Calling a communist facist just because you disagree with him is the lowest thing a leftist can do

While I have to agree, that using the word "fascist" as a slur is meaningless, I think you should restrain from calling someone a disgrace for socialism, until you understand basic tenets of socialism, which contradict greatly, what Israel is doing at the time.

[TheRedJew]

How many fucking times should I say I do not support israel's actions in any way?
You guys are so self centered, you don't want to listen when I say something that you don't agree with

[GallowsBird]

No, the reason Socialism fails in Israel is because too many Israelis, sadly, believe in Zionism (which, in my mind makes one no longer a leftist but a reactionary as Zionism is a racist and imperialist ideology) and the lies of the capitalist class that rules the country. In other words, TheRedJew, you are the reason Socialism fails in Israel!

Well fascists may treat you better than us Leftists but maybe because Zionism is more akin to their own ideology? Nazis may not support Israel (though originally the Nazis did support the creation of a "Jewish" state so they could ship loads of their citizens there but I digress) but many Fascists have, from Franco (who the Isreali goverment are ever fond of) to Anders Breivik. So , again why should we Socialist Anti-Zionists particularly care if Fascists treat you well while we don't?

Answer me this, by what criteria should the Israeli government (who I very much doubt will be Socialist any time soon) decide that Palestinians have a right to self-determination?

Why would it be a reactionary Islamic republic under Fatah? There is no evidence that are a fundamentalist Islamic group unlike Hamas (who you are right about). Also this oppression you speak of, which I shall take it you mean opression of Jews by Muslims or Arabs? When do you think it began in most "Islamic countries"? And how do you think it traditionally compares to Europe or to the oppression of Arabs and "non-Jews" in Israel? I would like to hear your opinion on that. Or the refusal of Israel and most of the US-aligned world to recognise Palestine as a state while Israel enjoys full recognition by the Western world?

I'd like to know your actual full opinions on these issues (as the thread implies) to confirm whether the categorisation I have made of you is valid or whether you haven't explained your views properly and I am in error in my judgement.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

@TheRedJew
No. You cannot say that you do not support Israeli actions in any way.
And then go on saying, that you support the current occupation of Gaza and the West Bank.
You can not have youre cake and eat it too, sorry.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Guys, stop harassing the new members. Your simple strawman/trolls don't actually hold water.

Supporting Israeli Self Determination is far from supporting Zionism.

I have already reported Leftsolidarity (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=37425) for trolling, so please take this issue more seriously. I don't tolerate Ad hominem fallacies.

[GallowsBird]

While I have to agree, that using the word "fascist" as a slur is meaningless, I think you should restrain from calling someone a disgrace for socialism, until you understand basic tenets of socialism, which contradict greatly, what Israel is doing at the time.

I would suggest he realises that there are many ideologies akin to Facism that are not Fascist; I, like many, would class Zionism as an ideology akin to Fascism and other forms of Ultra-Nationalism and I don't think it can be denied that the aformentioned idealogies have influenced Modern Zionism in many regards. There are of course actual forms of Zionism that are literally forms of Fascism of course such as the groups Brit HaBirionim, Lehi and many would argue Irgun (which had links with Mussolini's Italian Fascists).

[Permanent Revolutionary]

Guys, stop harassing the new members. Your simple strawman/trolls don't actually hold water.

Supporting Israeli Self Determination is far from supporting Zionism.

I have already reported Leftsolidarity (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=37425) for trolling, so please take this issue more seriously. I don't tolerate Ad hominem fallacies.

You do not tolerate ad hominem attacks? Well allow me to retort.

Not once have I used an ad hominem. I do not think I have used any strawmen, either. The fact that TheRedJew is new, does not excuse his lack of argumentative abilities. The fact is, that he has repeatedly failed to justify his beliefs adequately, and has also contradicted himself often.
I'm sorry, but this is a debate forum, and such things will be challenged, wether he's new or not.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

I would suggest he realises that there are many ideologies akin to Facism that are not Fascist; I, like many, would class Zionism as an ideology akin to Fascism and other forms of Ultra-Nationalism and I don't think it can be denied that the aformentioned idealogies have influenced Modern Zionism in many regards. There are of course actual forms of Zionism that are literally forms of Fascism of course such as the groups Brit HaBirionim, Lehi and many would argue Irgun (which had links with Mussolini's Italian Fascists).

I see what you're getting at, but personally I try to be more restrictive when using the term "fascist", because it is so often misused.

[GallowsBird]

Guys, stop harassing the new members. Your simple strawman/trolls don't actually hold water.

Supporting Israeli Self Determination is far from supporting Zionism.

I have already reported Leftsolidarity (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=37425) for trolling, so please take this issue more seriously. I don't tolerate Ad hominem fallacies.

No one is trolling him. If he is going to post things that sound a lot like support of Zionism he should be questioned on it. If I were to write something saying I support, in any regards, the UK's occupation of Northern Ireland or the USA's activities in Colombia I would expect to be challenged on these points.

Havee, you are an M-L, and thus should support National Liberation and Self-Determination, so I would have thought you'd see where many of these criticisms are coming from. If Israel was a Socialist state rather than an Imperialist one you could make a claim that Palestine should be administrated by Israel, just, but it isn't so I don't see how any Socialist can.

[GallowsBird]

I see what you're getting at, but personally I try to be more restrictive when using the term "fascist", because it is so often misused.

It is, and also misunderstood in what it actually is (nothing good obviously), but it is reasonable to mention it when it is appropriate to the subject.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Answer me this, by what criteria should the Israeli government (who I very much doubt will be Socialist any time soon) decide that Palestinians have a right to self-determination?
I think my comrade very much recognizes Palestine's right to Self Determination. He has, in other posts, demonstrated that he supports the existence of a Palestinian state. It is true that he has labeled Fatah as Fascist, but they are blocking out the more competent parties like DFLP. To add to this, the PLO has set certain claims against the Israeli state. It is more than obvious that their ambitions are beyond the liberation of the West Bank, as their emblem shows.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/Plo_emblem.png


Also this oppression you speak of, which I shall take it you mean opression of Jews by Muslims or Arabs? When do you think it began in most "Islamic countries"? And how do you think it traditionally compares to Europe or to the oppression of Arabs and "non-Jews" in Israel? I would like to hear your opinion on that. Or the refusal of Israel and most of the US-aligned world to recognise Palestine as a state while Israel enjoys full recognition by the Western world?
It has actually been I who has been making a point about this. Israel, unlike its Arab neighbors, has a very large Arab minority, which they've allowed to stay even during times of war. It is true that there are Security issues in Israel, which is what creates this 'oppression,' but take into account that Israel hasn't seen a day of peace since it began.

[seventeethdecember2016]

You do not tolerate ad hominem attacks? Well allow me to retort.

Not once have I used an ad hominem. I do not think I have used any strawmen, either. The fact that TheRedJew is new, does not excuse his lack of argumentative abilities. The fact is, that he has repeatedly failed to justify his beliefs adequately, and has also contradicted himself often.
I'm sorry, but this is a debate forum, and such things will be challenged, wether he's new or not.
Time and time again you have categorized TheRedJew as a Zionist for defending Israeli Self Determination. This is a Strawman if I've ever seen a Strawman.

He actually hasn't contradicted himself on one occasion, as I've read all of his comments thoroughly, so perhaps you should revisits some of his comments.


No one is trolling him. If he is going to post things that sound a lot like support of Zionism he should be questioned on it. If I were to write something saying I support, in any regards, the UK's occupation of Northern Ireland or the USA's activities in Colombia I would expect to be challenged on these points.

Havee, you are an M-L, and thus should support National Liberation and Self-Determination, so I would have thought you'd see where many of these criticisms are coming from. If Israel was a Socialist state rather than an Imperialist one you could make a claim that Palestine should be administrated by Israel, just, but it isn't so I don't see how any Socialist can.
Zionism is an old craze based on the creation of the state of Israel, which was achieved in 1948. TheRedJew has well demonstrated that Zionism ended in 1948. There are some neo-Zionists who want to expand Israels domain from the Nile to the Euphrates, but he hasn't once supported such a proposition. He, this entire time, has defended Israeli Self Determination and their Security Dilemma, and nothing more. Not one of his comments have been Zionistic, and it has lead me to believe that members on this forum don't know what Zionism is.
I, as a former Zionist, know exactly what it is, and TheRedJew is far from it.

Also, I should note that I support Palestinian Self Determination. The PLO, however, wants to dissolve the Israeli state, which conflicts with Israel's Self Determination. Something has to give, which is why I am neutral. I can also vouch for TheRedJew, and say that he is also neutral.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

I think my comrade very much recognizes Palestine's right to Self Determination. He has, in other posts, demonstrated that he supports the existence of a Palestinian state. It is true that he has labeled Fatah as Fascist, but they are blocking out the more competent parties like DFLP. To add to this, the PLO has set certain claims against the Israeli state. It is more than obvious that their ambitions are beyond the liberation of the West Bank, as their emblem shows.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fe/Plo_emblem.png


It has actually been I who has been making a point about this. Israel, unlike its Arab neighbors, has a very large Arab minority, which they've allowed to stay even during times of war. It is true that there are Security issues in Israel, which is what creates this 'oppression,' but take into account that Israel hasn't seen a day of peace since it began.

Maybe I misunderstand, but isn't it logical that Israels Arab neighbours don't have a Arab minority. They are called Arab for a reason.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Maybe I misunderstand, but isn't it logical that Israels Arab neighbours don't have a Arab minority. They are called Arab for a reason.
I was referring to how they expelled their Jewish minorities, as was the case in Iraq and several other nations.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

Time and time again you have categorized TheRedJew as a Zionist for defending Israeli Self Determination. This is a Strawman if I've ever seen a Strawman.

He actually hasn't contradicted himself on one occasion, as I've read all of his comments thoroughly, so perhaps you should revisits some of his comments.

No, I have never called him a Zionist, and I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth, thank you.
Secondly, saying that you in no way support the current Israeli government, and then go on to support the Israeli occupation og Gaza and the West Bank, that is a major contradiction.

[TheRedJew]

No, I have never called him a Zionist, and I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth, thank you.
Secondly, saying that you in no way support the current Israeli government, and then go on to support the Israeli occupation og Gaza and the West Bank, that is a major contradiction.

By saying I don't support Arab nationalism I am not saying I support ocupation so stop putting words in my mouth.
I had enough of this, I never talked about this subject before and I prefer not talking about it in the future

[seventeethdecember2016]

No, I have never called him a Zionist, and I don't appreciate people putting words in my mouth, thank you.
Secondly, saying that you in no way support the current Israeli government, and then go on to support the Israeli occupation og Gaza and the West Bank, that is a major contradiction.
When did he say he supports Israeli occupation? Did you get that simply because he considers Hamas and Fatah as Fascists?

STRAWMAN!!!!

Also, I have noted that Israel occupation ended a while ago. I went further to illustrate how Palestine has its own security and police forces to maintain peace and quell terrorism, and these forces are possible thanks to Israel's joint mission with Palestine to establish peace.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

Now, I think that if Palestine will be liberated, the result would be an Islamic reactionary dictatorship led by Hamas or Fatah.
The reason I think that will be the case is because socialist movements in Palestine are really weak, and most Palestinians will support an Islamic regime that will probably be in constant war with Israel, and will oppress minorities, different religions and women like most Islamic nations.
The most probable way Palestine will be socialist is if Israel will be socialist too, and will liberate Palestine as its puppet or as a Union state like I posted before.
Let's say that Palestine is socialist and Israel is not, Palestine will starve economically as Israel will probably embargo them and will get USA to do the same.
Also, the current Hamas leadership is not capable of sustaining a country and will lead their citizens to poverty and war.
That is why I don’t think you should support Palestinian liberation movement unless they are leftist.

It is possible to read between the lines here.

[GallowsBird]

Zionism is an old craze based on the creation of the state of Israel, which was achieved in 1948.

Zionism predates Israel by around 100 years.


TheRedJew has well demonstrated that Zionism ended in 1948.

No he hasn't. Where is the evidence Zionism is not alive and well?


There are some neo-Zionists who want to expand Israels domain from the Nile to the Euphrates, but he hasn't once supported such a proposition. He, this entire time, has defended Israeli Self Determination and their Security Dilemma, and nothing more. Not one of his comments have been Zionistic, and it has lead me to believe that members on this forum don't know what Zionism is.
I, as a former Zionist, know exactly what it is, and TheRedJew is far from it.

We do know what Zionism is, I would suggest you and RedJew may not; Zionism in the most simplistic terms is the "support for a Jewish nation state the "Land of Israel" in the region previously known as Palestine.


Also, I should note that I support Palestinian Self Determination. The PLO, however, wants to dissolve the Israeli state, which conflicts with Israel's Self Determination.


Does wanting Northern Ireland to be abolished and the lands reunited with the rest of Ireland conflict with Unionist Ulster's Self-Determination?


Something has to give, which is why I am neutral. I can also vouch for TheRedJew, and say that he is also neutral.

I hope he'll prove he is neutral as he has not done this yet.

[TheRedJew]

Zionism predates Israel by around 100 years.



No he hasn't. Where is the evidence Zionism is not alive and well?



We do know what Zionism is, I would suggest you and RedJew may not; Zionism in the most simplistic terms is the "support for a Jewish nation state the "Land of Israel" in the region previously known as Palestine.




Does wanting Northern Ireland to be abolished and the lands reunited with the rest of Ireland conflict with Unionist Ulster's Self-Determination?



I hope he'll prove he is neutral as he has not done this yet.

You proved you don't know what Zionism is, Zionism is not about palestine, hertzel almost accepted Uganda as a possible homeland for Jews.
I don't know what is wrong with you, I went to protests aginst discrimination in israel, and I never stated I support racism

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

You proved you don't know what Zionism is, Zionism is not about palestine, hertzel almost accepted Uganda as a possible homeland for Jews.
I don't know what is wrong with you, I went to protests aginst discrimination in israel, and I never stated I support racism

If they had done the same thing in Uganda, we would be complaining about that.

[TheRedJew]

If they had done the same thing in Uganda, we would be complaining about that.

What?

[Permanent Revolutionary]

You proved you don't know what Zionism is, Zionism is not about palestine, hertzel almost accepted Uganda as a possible homeland for Jews.
I don't know what is wrong with you, I went to protests aginst discrimination in israel, and I never stated I support racism

You're blithering. Our grievance against Zionism and the the way the establishment of an Israeli state was achieved, is that Imperialist powers handed over a piece of land to a group of people who had no right to the land. This is why it doesn't matter if the piece of land was Palestine, Uganda or Sweden.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

What?


You proved you don't know what Zionism is, Zionism is not about palestine, hertzel almost accepted Uganda as a possible homeland for Jews.
I don't know what is wrong with you, I went to protests aginst discrimination in israel, and I never stated I support racism

We would also complain if Israel had done the same thing to the Ugandan people as they do now to the Palestines.

[GallowsBird]

You proved you don't know what Zionism is, Zionism is not about palestine, hertzel almost accepted Uganda as a possible homeland for Jews.

Actually I have proved that I have oversimplified and forgot to mention the far less common strands of Zionism and given a common dictionary definition. You could also add parts of Russia etc to the list but that doesn't change the fact that in its base, common form, it IS very much about Palestine. Incidentally if Uganda was chosen that would be just as bad and I'd still attack the Zionist movement.



I don't know what is wrong with you, I went to protests aginst discrimination in israel, and I never stated I support racism

What is wrong with me? I am just confused by your many strange statements that don't have any basis in fact like claiming Zionism is dead? News to me and most of the world (including Zionists and Pro-Zionists).

When did I say you supported racism? Well if you support Zionism in any way, then yes, you do... but that is besides the point.

I don't know what is wrong with you? Are you a reactionary? A troll? Or some one very confused about what they believe or should believe as a Socialist?

[Per Levy]

@theredjew: just an advice, dont take things here to much to heart, its just an internet forum after all. israel isnt very liked here, thats pretty obvious, so you might want to discuss other things to not get into to much anger about this. just saying.

[TheRedJew]

You're blithering. Our grievance against Zionism and the the way the establishment of an Israeli state was achieved, is that Imperialist powers handed over a piece of land to a group of people who had no right to the land. This is why it doesn't matter if the piece of land was Palestine, Uganda or Sweden.

By saying that jews has no rights over isrAel I don't consider you legit anymore, just like holocaust deniers.

[seventeethdecember2016]

It is possible to read between the lines here.
Yes, again this is leveled down to a strawman. I personally don't support the Palestinian Liberation Organization, but I support the Liberation of Palestine. There is a significant difference.

In his last sentence, he illustrated how he doesn't support Right winged parties.

Zionism predates Israel by around 100 years.

As I noted when I said it ended with the establishment of the Israel state.



No he hasn't. Where is the evidence Zionism is not alive and well?Simply because I noted that the new phenomenon is known as Neo-Zionism, which aims at the expansion of Israel's domain. Zionism, which ended in 1948, ended with the establishment of a state in the land of Zion, known as Israel.



We do know what Zionism is, I would suggest you and RedJew may not; Zionism in the most simplistic terms is the "support for a Jewish nation state the "Land of Israel" in the region previously known as Palestine.Well, Zionism, as I learned it, was what I noted. You can contest my definition, but your definition is equivalent to someone calling the Soviet Union Communist. Genuine neo-Zionists want to expand Israel's boarders, and those who support the existence of the state of Israel are simply Nationalistic or Patriotic Israelis, which is vastly different from Zionistic Israelis.



Does wanting Northern Ireland to be abolished and the lands reunited with the rest of Ireland conflict with Unionist Ulster's Self-Determination?Actually, the PLO's ambition is not the Liberation of the West Bank, which they already achieved.
Since you compared the PLO to Ireland, it would be equivalent to the IRA trying to 'Liberate' the entire British Isles, rather than just Northern Ireland.



I hope he'll prove he is neutral as he has not done this yet.Well, I haven't seen any chauvinism or aggressive language towards the Palestinians, so I must disagree.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

By saying that jews has no rights over isrAel I don't consider you legit anymore, just like holocaust deniers.

By comparing this to holocaust deniers you prove you have no sense
what-so-ever.

[TheRedJew]

By comparing this to holocaust deniers you prove you have no sense
what-so-ever.

I meant his relevency is equel to the relevency of holocaust deniers.
You know that's what I meant so don't act stupid

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Yes, again this is leveled down to a strawman. I personally don't support the Palestinian Liberation Organization, but I support the Liberation of Palestine. There is a significant difference.

In his last sentence, he illustrated how he doesn't support Right winged parties.

As I noted when I said it ended with the establishment of the Israel state.


Simply because I noted that the new phenomenon is known as Neo-Zionism, which aims at the expansion of Israel's domain. Zionism, which ended in 1948, ended with the establishment of a state in the land of Zion, known as Israel.


Well, Zionism, as I learned it, was what I noted. You can contest my definition, but your definition is equivalent to someone calling the Soviet Union Communist. Genuine neo-Zionists want to expand Israel's boarders, and those who support the existence of the state of Israel are simply Nationalistic or Patriotic Israelis, which is vastly different from Zionistic Israelis.


Actually, the PLO's ambition is not the Liberation of the West Bank, which they already achieved.
Since you compared the PLO to Ireland, it would be equivalent to the IRA trying to 'Liberate' the entire British Isles, rather than just Northern Ireland.


Well, I haven't seen any chauvinism or aggressive language towards the Palestinians, so I must disagree.

So let me get this straight. Israel takes about the whole of palestine, then gives them a little bit of land, and now the Palestines have to be thankful. Unlike the british isles, the palestines actually lived on that land before it got stolen

[GallowsBird]

Actually, the PLO's ambition is not the Liberation of the West Bank, which they already achieved.
Since you compared the PLO to Ireland, it would be equivalent to the IRA trying to 'Liberate' the entire British Isles, rather than just Northern Ireland.

Are you claiming that Palestine was not a nation before Israel or that they did not ever have what is now Israel as part of their territory? It is like Northern Ireland in that the "British" (mostly Scots and Northern English) colonised (though unlike Israel N. Ireland didn't have apartheid and thus there was more mixing between the Catholic Irish and Protestant Scots and English but I digress) a part (originally all of Ireland) in the same way Europeans (all the prominent Zionist leaders where either from Europe or where the children of recent immigrants to Palestine) colonised a part of Palestine. I guess it would be more alike if Northern Ireland wasn't an actual colony of the UK but was rather created by the UK and granted independence however the basics of the situation are fundamentally the same. Also if the Irish lived on the island of Great Britain before it was taken (they didn't though Gaelic peoples did colonise parts of Scotland and even briefly a part of Wales in the Early Middle Ages) by the UK then yes they would be like the Palestinians!

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

I meant his relevency is equel to the relevency of holocaust deniers.
You know that's what I meant so don't act stupid

Well the right to own land is actually subjective and the Holocaust is a proven thing.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

By saying that jews has no rights over isrAel I don't consider you legit anymore, just like holocaust deniers.

Back the fuck up.
I will not stand being likened to Holocaust deniers, I won't.

Let's look at the facts for a moment. Pre-Israel Palestine was very much an Arab territory, until Zionists started immigrating.

Now, what right did the Jews have to the land of Palestine? There hadn't been a "Nation of Israel" for almost 2000 years. Does this give modern Israelis the right to be handed judicial control over a piece of land, which is previously occupied by local Palestinians? Hell no!

[seventeethdecember2016]

So let me get this straight. Israel takes abkut the whole of palestine, then gies them a little bit of land, and now the Palestines have to be thankful. Unlike the british isles, the palestines actually lived on that land before it got stolen
As did the Jews, who the British left in charge of the British Mandate. The Jews in Palestine were known as the Mizrahis, and they are the ones who created the state of Israel.

The original proposition was that Israel would get the regions which had large Jewish populations, while the Jordanians would get the Muslim populated regions. Areas with large Jewish populations also had some Muslims, who were allowed to stay if they wished. And large Muslim populations had some Jews, which were pogromed. Peace wasn't had sadly, and there was a war, where Israel got the rest of the pre-1967 land. They also allowed Muslims to live peacefully, but many left, except roughly 1 million. The Arab minorities, today, in Israel have their roots from this exact deal.

[Arlekino]

Back the fuck up.
I will not stand being likened to Holocaust deniers, I won't.

Let's look at the facts for a moment. Pre-Israel Palestine was very much an Arab territory, until Zionists started immigrating.

Now, what right did the Jews have to the land of Palestine? There hadn't been a "Nation of Israel" for almost 2000 years. Does this give modern Israelis the right to be handed judicial control over a piece of land, which is previously occupied by local Palestinians? Hell no!
Sad stories from past, Jews has to find the shelter somewhere from East Europe, as still war refugees moving somewhere.

[cynicles]

Fatah support an Islamic state? That makes no sense Fatah doesn't even care about supporting Palestinian liberation anymore since it's basically become the enforcement arm of the occupation for the Israeli government after Arafat sold his people out to imperialism. Hamas is on it's way to selling out it's people too after it bascially said the only reason it was allied with Iran was because of money. And so what if they elect an islamist to power, if you support self-determination you can't have it both ways. You either support their right to it or you don't, you don't get to choose for them to have it when they vote the way you wan't to, that just makes you a hypocrite. You think any of us like the way the Egyptian election went? Fuck no! Does that give us the right to fly in and stage coups! Fuck no!
In addition to that the entire basis of the Israeli state is ethno-chauvinism, it never was nor shall it ever be a socialist state, when you espouse an ideology grounded in the ideas of stealing land from indiginous people to for states for particular ethnic groups to live on you're not a socialist, you're a fascist. Oh and before you bring the expulsion of the jews from Arab countries back up again, no one here said at any point that they don't support reparations for jews expelled from places like Egypt and Tunisia. Speaking for myself I absolutely support it.
Finally, no Israel does not have the right to exist, any 2 state solution will only prolong the conflict and give Palestinians an unsoverieng state subject to Israel's whim. There is no equivalency between Israeli power and Palestinian power, Israel is one of the most powerful military forces in the world backed by an even larger one that has a kill ratio of 100:1 palestinians to israelis. So please cut the "but Israeli security is so important!" crap before I vomit. The only solution will be the dissolution fo the territories and the state of Israel into some singular state entity that forces them to deal with their issues. Nobody has to leave, nobody has to live under an Islamic state, nobody has to be "driven into the sea", but I'll be damned if the Palestinians are left to live on 22 percent of their original homeland because some *random obscenity* thinks we should just forget everything that happened and settle for some half-baked unjuste solution.

[TheRedJew]

This whole thread is going nowhere, someone stop it

[seventeethdecember2016]

Are you claiming that Palestine was not a nation before Israel or that they did not ever have what is now Israel as part of their territory?

Of course not, Palestine was a Nation that broke into Israel and Jordan. A Reactionary movement sprouted up by names like Yasser Arafat, who took control of the then Jordan occupied West Bank, in 1964, and then launched a War against Israel 3 years later which forced Israel to Occupy the West Bank.

I answered many of your points in my argument to Negative Creep.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

As did the Jews, who the British left in charge of the British Mandate. The Jews in Palestine were known as the Mizrahis, and they are the ones who created the state of Israel.

The original proposition was that Israel would get the regions which had large Jewish populations, while the Jordanians would get the Muslim populated regions. Areas with large Jewish populations also had some Muslims, who were allowed to stay if they wished. And large Muslim populations had some Jews, which were pogromed. Peace wasn't had sadly, and there was a war, where Israel got the rest of the pre-1967 land. They also allowed Muslims to live peacefully, but many left, except roughly 1 million. The Arab minorities, today, in Israel have their roots from this exact deal.

May I ask, did Israel after that war still hold the same amount of land that was agreed upon? Or did they take a tiny bit more?
Also, why would the Palestinians agree with the rules (who is the boss of what land in this case) set up by their oppressors (British Colonialism) ?

[seventeethdecember2016]

May I ask, did Israel after that war still hold the same amount of land that was agreed upon? Or did they take a tiny bit more?
Also, why would the Palestinians agree with the rules (who is the boss of what land in this case) set up by their oppressors (British Colonialism) ?
Actually, I will give you an image of the before and after. They never actually agreed on the proposal Israel made, rather Jordan went to war with Israel. This made it fair game, and Israel expanded very much thanks to the '48 war.

http://www.israpundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Israel-1948-491.gif
Jordan also never agreed with the '47 proposition, although it was agreed upon by the UN. Jordan, who had many allies, thought they could defeat Israel easily and stop Israeli independence, but they failed miserably.


I should also note that the Colonial powers would always leave the minorities in charge of their colonies. They did this because they needed a support base in their colonies, and, in this case, the Jews were the electorate of the British Mandate of Palestine. Just like how the Sunnis were the electorate of Iraq(a Shia country.)
In Ottoman times, these areas were separated by ethnicities. So while there was a province of Palestine, there was also a province of Judah(where Jews made up the majority.)

[El Chuncho]

I know facists who treat me better then people here so you all can fuck off.

That is because you are a fascist... I mean, a Zionist, sport.



You are the reason socialism fails in israel

I beg to differ. People like you are the reason socialism fails in Israel.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Actually, I will give you an image of the before and after. They never actually agreed on the proposal Israel made, rather Jordan went to war with Israel. This made it fair game, and Israel expanded very much thanks to the '48 war.

http://www.israpundit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Israel-1948-491.gif
Jordan also never agreed with the '47 proposition, although it was agreed upon by the UN. Jordan, who had many allies, thought they could defeat Israel easily and stop Israeli independence, but they failed miserably.


I should also note that the Colonial powers would always leave the minorities in charge of their colonies. They did this because they needed a support base in their colonies, and, in this case, the Jews were the electorate of the British Mandate of Palestine. Just like how the Sunnis were the electorate of Iraq(a Shia country.)
In Ottoman times, these areas were separated by ethnicities. So while there was a province of Palestine, there was also a province of Judah(where Jews made up the majority.)

So if basically nobody agreed with that agreement (nit so much a agreement bur whatever) why bother bringing it up?
Also it seems like theyntook more than the Jordan parts, but I don't know (nor am I really interested atm) how that war went so I can't judge on that.

[seventeethdecember2016]

So if basically nobody agreed with that agreement (nit so much a agreement bur whatever) why bother bringing it up?
Also it seems like theyntook more than the Jordan parts, but I don't know (nor am I really interested atm) how that war went so I can't judge on that.
Well, certain people were contesting the creation of Israel as some European migration, which it wasn't. I made the point the Israeli independence was conducted by Jews who had lived in the land of Zion for thousands of years. I also brought up the war for the purpose of showing how Israel simply wanted independence, not to expand its borders.

The Jordanians later agreed to the peace agreement for fear of Israel expanding their borders further into the West Bank, which they had interests in. Egypt was also allowed to have the Gaza strip.
So essentially, Palestine was gone and it formed into two states- Israel and Jordan. Palestine, as we know it, was supposed to be annexed by Israel, but Israel gave it up to Jordan and Egypt for a peace deal. So essentially, they just carved Palestine up.

I don't know why all my Marxist-Leninist Comrades disagree with the National Self Determination of Israel.
The Arab-Israel war started May 15th, 1948, and the Soviet Union recognized Israel two days later on May 17th, 1948. Stalin clearly recognized Israel Self Determination, and anyone who claims to be Marxist-Leninist should back the standard set by Stalin.

[Comrade Trollface]

This scumbag has revealed himself to be a racist. His opinion no longer matters.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Well, certain people were contesting the creation of Israel as some European migration, which it wasn't. I made the point the Israeli independence was conducted by Jews who had lived in the land of Zion for thousands of years. I also brought up the war for the purpose of showing how Israel simply wanted independence, not to expand its borders.

The Jordanians later agreed to the peace agreement for fear of Israel expanding their borders further into the West Bank, which they had interests in.

I don't know why all my Marxist-Leninist Comrades disagree with the National Self Determination of Israel.
The Arab-Israel war started May 15th, 1948, and the Soviet Union recognized Israel two days later on May 17th, 1948. Stalin clearly recognized Israel Self Determination, and anyone who claims to be Marxist-Leninist should back the standard set by Stalin.

but they did.

[GallowsBird]

This scumbag has revealed himself to be a racist. His opinion no longer matters.

*Sarcasm* Which was of course a major surprise! What RedJew a racist? Who would have guessed! :rolleyes: :lol:

[seventeethdecember2016]

but they did.
I edited a little of my last post, so I will just repost it on this post.


The Jordanians later agreed to the peace agreement for fear of Israel expanding their borders further into the West Bank, which they had interests in. Egypt was also allowed to have the Gaza strip.
So essentially, Palestine was gone and it formed into two states- Israel and Jordan. Palestine, as we know it, was supposed to be annexed by Israel, but Israel gave it up to Jordan and Egypt for a peace deal. So essentially, they just carved Palestine up.The existence of Palestine is kind of a joke between Jordan and Israel, which is why they continue to have such good relations(they were the original Palestinians).

The land from the '47 deal was supposed to create a separate Palestinian and Israeli state, but Jordan and Egypt saw it as a waste to fight over any longer, so in 1949 Israel, Jordan, and Egypt carve up what was left of Palestine.

Also, for whatever reason, people consider the Golan heights as part of Palestine, but it really belongs to Syria.

[electrostal]

I know facists who treat me better then people here so you all can fuck off.
Actually that doesn't surprise me at all.
:laugh:

[El Chuncho]

Calling a communist facist just because you disagree with him is the lowest thing a leftist can do

He didn't call a communist a ''fascist''. Zionism is incompatible with communism and thus you are not a communist, ''Red'' Jew.



Also, I should note that I support Palestinian Self Determination. The PLO, however, wants to dissolve the Israeli state, which conflicts with Israel's Self Determination. Something has to give, which is why I am neutral. I can also vouch for TheRedJew, and say that he is also neutral.

You shouldn't be neutral, you should side with Palestine. Israel is a imperialist and colonialist power and thus their ''self-determinism'' is nothing more than imperialism and colonialism. A similar thing would be a USA citizen blabbing on about ''self-determination'' for the United States, while the United States expands into Native American territory and displaces the natives.

And it is very much understandable that the PLO, as a Palestinians, want to dissolve the Israeli state (and justice and ethics is certainly on their side) because the Israeli state is a colonialist, European power and nothing more. Their country was stolen from them, so what do you expect?


By saying that jews has no rights over isrAel I don't consider you legit anymore, just like holocaust deniers.

Your opinions are not ''legit'' because you believe that ''Jews'' (or Israelis/Zionists, really) have a right to Israel when they certainly do not. The Israeli claim to Israel seems to hinge on their mythology; they claim to have owned the lands of Israeli about 2000 years ago and then left. That doesn't give them a right to own lands that Palestinians have lived in for almost 2000 years. It would be like the English taking over northern Germany because the Anglo-Saxons owned the area in the past, or that the Turks should take over their former lands around Mongolia. It is nonsense.



Actually, the PLO's ambition is not the Liberation of the West Bank, which they already achieved.
Since you compared the PLO to Ireland, it would be equivalent to the IRA trying to 'Liberate' the entire British Isles, rather than just Northern Ireland.


... except the Palestinians actually lived in the land that was stolen to make Israel. I am nearly convinced now that you are a troll. And as you claim to be an ML, like myself, it makes my skin crawl.


I don't know why all my Marxist-Leninist Comrades disagree with the National Self Determination of Israel.

Because Israel doesn't have a right to self-determination in occupied Palestine, it is a invader nation built upon oppression, imperialism and racism. It is like saying that we should support the self-determination of Nazi Germany, the Khmer Rouge regime and other fascist, racist and imperialist regimes.

[seventeethdecember2016]

He didn't call a communist a ''fascist''. Zionism is incompatible with communism and thus you are not a communist, ''Red'' Jew.
Nice job equating Jews with Zionism.



You shouldn't be neutral, you should side with Palestine. Israel is a imperialist and colonialist power and thus their ''self-determinism'' is nothing more than imperialism and colonialism. A similar thing would be a USA citizen blabbing on about ''self-determination'' for the United States, while the United States expands into Native American territory and displaces the natives.

I should side with an Ultra-Nationalistic movement which was already given its land back? Israel is neither Imperialistic nor Colonialistic. The Jewish 'colonists' have been kicked out of their homes by the Israeli government, which shouldn't have been their right in the first place as people should be allowed to live wherever they wish.
Neutrality is really the key here, as it is best to stay out of Nationalistic feuds.


And it is very much understandable that the PLO, as a Palestinians, want to dissolve the Israeli state (and justice and ethics is certainly on their side) because the Israeli state is a colonialist, European power and nothing more. Their country was stolen from them, so what do you expect?
You're an idiot, Israel was formed by Mizrahi Jews who had lived in Israel just as long as the Arabs. Palestine, as it was known, was actually Israel and Jordan, which broke up after the Israeli Revolution. During the British Mandate of Palestine, the Jews were the ones in power anyway, as was custom of colonial powers to leave minorities in power, so it was actually much fairer to proclaim independence and let Arab countries govern themselves.



Your opinions are not ''legit'' because you believe that ''Jews'' (or Israelis/Zionists, really) have a right to Israel when they certainly do not. The Israeli claim to Israel seems to hinge on their mythology; they claim to have owned the lands of Israeli about 2000 years ago and then left. That doesn't give them a right to own lands that Palestinians have lived in for almost 2000 years. It would be like the English taking over northern Germany because the Anglo-Saxons owned the area in the past, or that the Turks should take over their former lands around Mongolia. It is nonsense.
In the Ottoman times Palestine had many hundreds of thousands of Jews, and even had their own province called Judea. These Jews, as I've noted, were the ones who created Israel.




... except the Palestinians actually lived in the land that was stolen to make Israel. I am nearly convinced now that you are a troll. And as you claim to be an ML, like myself, it makes my skin crawl.
Palestine was carved up by Jordan, Egypt, and Israel after the 1949 war. Your a f**king idiot!

I simply recognize Israeli Self Determination, something Stalin recognized two days after Jordan, and her allies, went to war against Israel to stop the Revolution. If you're a Marxist-Leninist, you'd recognize Israel Self Determination, otherwise you're not really a Marxist-Leninist.



Because Israel doesn't have a right to self-determination in occupied Palestine, it is a invader nation built upon oppression, imperialism and racism. It is like saying that we should support the self-determination of Nazi Germany, the Khmer Rouge regime and other fascist, racist and imperialist regimes.
I guess Stalin was a bad Marxist-Leninist then, as he recognized Israeli Self Determination. It is really irritating having to repeat my comments like this.

And f**k you! You're just a charlatan, and I am ashamed that I am in the same school of thought as you.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Nice job equating Jews with Zionism.



I should side with an Ultra-Nationalistic movement which was already given its land back? Israel is neither Imperialistic nor Colonialistic. The Jewish 'colonists' have been kicked out of their homes by the Israeli government, which shouldn't have been their right in the first place as people should be allowed to live wherever they wish.
Neutrality is really the key here, as it is best to stay out of Nationalistic feuds.


You're an idiot, Israel was formed by Mizrahi Jews who had lived in Israel just as long as the Arabs. Palestine, as it was known, was actually Israel and Jordan, which broke up after the Israeli Revolution. During the British Mandate of Palestine, the Jews were the ones in power anyway, as was custom of colonial powers to leave minorities in power, so it was actually much fairer to proclaim independence and let Arab countries govern themselves.



In the Ottoman times Palestine had many hundreds of thousands of Jews, and even had their own province called Judea. These Jews, as I've noted, were the ones who created Israel.



Palestine was carved up by Jordan, Egypt, and Israel after the 1949 war. Your a f**king idiot!

I simply recognize Israeli Self Determination, something Stalin recognized two days after Jordan, and her allies, went to war against Israel to stop the Revolution. If you're a Marxist-Leninist, you'd recognize Israel Self Determination, otherwise you're not really a Marxist-Leninist.


I guess Stalin was a bad Marxist-Leninist then, as he recognized Israeli Self Determination. It is really irritating having to repeat my comments like this.

And f**k you! You're just a charlatan, and I am ashamed that I am in the same school of thought as you.

He didn't equate Jews with Zionism. He meant the user , and your little friend, RedJew, who happens to be a zionist btw.

[cynicles]

What Israeli revolution? And Zionism is a European
Jewish nationalist ideology, it didn't come from mizrahim Jews living in Palestine already. European Jewish settlers who moved to Palestine had treated local palestinians as garbage before Israel was formed, the local Jewish community that lived there had minor, though not necessarily nonexistent problems, with other Palestinians and stop peddling your bullshit mythology about Palestinians being secret Jordanians.

[seventeethdecember2016]

He didn't equate Jews with Zionism. He meant the user , and your little friend, RedJew, who happens to be a zionist btw.
Oh yeah! TheRedJew is a Zionist because he views Fatah and Hamas as Fascists, of which I agree that the latter is Fascist. Palestinian Self Determination is a given, but it must me criticized heavily when it endangers the Self Determination of Israel- a state formed by the Mizhrahi Jews, who were a people that lived on the land since the times of Bar Kokhba.

The State of Palestine seized to exist after Jordan and Israel declared independence, and further carved up the land of Canaan. If the PLO are genuine players, they would not only go after Israel, but also Jordan, which they don't.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Oh yeah! TheRedJew is a Zionist because he views Fatah and Hamas as Fascists, of which I agree that the latter is Fascist. Palestinian Self Determination is a given, but it must me criticized heavily when it endangers the Self Determination of Israel- a state formed by the Mizhrahi Jews, who were a people that lived on the land since the times of Bar Kokhba.

The State of Palestine seized to exist after Jordan and Israel declared independence, and further carved up the land of Canaan. If the PLO are genuine players, they would not only go after Israel, but also Jordan, which they don't.

Still does not mean that he equalt zionism and jew.
That is what you use as an excuse for your pathetic racist zionism.

[seventeethdecember2016]

What Israeli revolution? And Zionism is a European
Jewish nationalist ideology, it didn't come from mizrahim Jews living in Palestine already. European Jewish settlers who moved to Palestine had treated local palestinians as garbage before Israel was formed, the local Jewish community that lived there had minor, though not necessarily nonexistent problems, with other Palestinians and stop peddling your bullshit mythology about Palestinians being secret Jordanians.
You're an idiot. Read a little about Israeli history.

The Jews were given power during the British Mandate, and those were the Mizrahi Jews. During the Revolution, it was the Mizrahi Jews that fought against the invaders, including a few migrants that newly came from Europe(their numbers were low at the time.)

I am also not making up any claims. The original Palestinians were the ISRAELS AND JORDANIANS.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Still does not mean that he equalt zionism and jew.
That is what you use as an excuse for your pathetic racist zionism.
It is my assessment that the term Jew has been replaced with Zionist.

You don't really mean 'pathetic Zionist,' which I'm not, rather you mean 'pathetic Jew.' Face it, you are antisemitic, and so are all of your 'Comrades.'

Zionist, on this forum, is not used in respect to the ideal of Zionism, rather as a blanket term employed by idiots like you to criticize those who do not conform with accepted Marxist ideals on the Israeli question.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

It is my assessment that the term Jew has been replaced with Zionist.

You don't really mean 'pathetic Zionist,' which I'm not, rather you mean 'pathetic Jew.' Face it, you are antisemitic, and so are all of your 'Comrades.'

It is simply a blanket term employed by idiots like you to criticize those who do not conform with accepted Marxist ideals.

My whole fuckingg family is jewish, almost everyone in my family got killed during the war. Either trying to fight the Nazis or in the camps.
Even those who fought the nazis or gotten home from the camps oppose Israel.
Don't you dare call me anti-semitic you zionist fascist rat. You fake leftist make me sick.

[genstrike]

Israel- a state formed by the Mizhrahi Jews,

Oh yeah, Ashkenazi Jews like Herzl, Weizmann, Ben-Gurion, Jabotinsky, and every prominent early Zionist leader I can think of had nothing to do with it.

[seventeethdecember2016]

My whole fuckingg family is jewish, almost everyone in my family got killed during the war. Either trying to fight the Nazis or in the camps.
Even those who fought the nazis or gotten home from the camps oppose Israel.
Don't you dare call me anti-semitic you zionist fascist rat. You fake leftist make me sick.
Yes, I realized that before posting, but thanks for playing the role of a demagogue.

If you are really not antisemitic, as you claim, than stop generalizing against Jews who recognize Israel's right to Self Determination. WE ARE NOT ZIONISTS!!!!

[seventeethdecember2016]

Oh yeah, Ashkenazi Jews like Herzl, Weizmann, Ben-Gurion, Jabotinsky, and every prominent early Zionist leader I can think of had nothing to do with it.
Yeah, you can point out the few Ashkenazis, such as Arial Sharon, but the bulk of the Israeli force was Mizrahi, and that cannot be denied.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Yes, I realized that before posting, but thanks for playing the role of a demagogue.

If you are really not antisemitic, as you claim, than stop generalizing against Jews who recognize Israel's right to Self Determination. WE ARE NOT ZIONISTS!!!!

I ain't generalizing jews. I call you two racist fake leftist zionists.
And I will keep saying that.

[campesino]

@ Have3333333
do you support the one state solution, or the two state solution? and why?

[seventeethdecember2016]

I ain't generalizing jews. I call you two racist fake leftist zionists.
And I will keep saying that.
You need something called sufficient proof to make such damning accusations. You have absolutely none, instead, of course, calling us Zionists because we are Zionists.

Circular reasoning is a fallacy, and I have adjusted your definition a tad more. You don't view us as Zionists because we are Zionists, rather because we are Jews who support the National Self Determination of Israel.

You can play devil's advocate forever, but, from my long experience, you, and your comrades, are nothing more than disillusion antisemites.

[seventeethdecember2016]

@ Have3333333
do you support the one state solution, or the two state solution? and why?
Two state solution, and I do so because the Palestinian people, as they were reformed after years of attempted assimilation into Jordanian and Egyptian societies, must have a right to Self Determination.

I don't, however, support the PLO, whose ambition conflicts with Israel's right to Self Determination. Although Fatah is in the PLO, they are working well with the Israels in their transition, so I think Fatah can be trusted. An example of this was how Israel promoted the West Bank for a 100 million dollar loan to the IMF, which was denied because PA doesn't have state status yet. Hamas, on the other hand, can't, and that is why Gaza must be liberated and returned to the Palestinian Authorities.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

You need something called sufficient proof to make such damning accusations. You have absolutely none, instead, of course, calling us Zionists because we are Zionists.

Circular reasoning is a fallacy, and I have adjusted your definition a tad more. You don't view us as Zionists because we are Zionists, rather because we are Jews who support the National Self Determination of Israel.

You can play devil's advocate forever, but, from my long experience, you, and your comrades, are nothing more than disillusion antisemites.

I have not said anything about jews, hell I even posted in RedJew's intro thread:
Zionism=//=Jews
But morons like you cant read.
It has already been proven that self determination doesnt apply here, and I have not ever talked about you being Jews.
You two support the oppressing of palestinians (you said that their self-determination only applies when it doesn't affect the one of Israel) you are a colonialist zionist and should threated as one. That has nothing to do with your religion.

[campesino]

Two state solution, and I do so because the Palestinian people, as they were reformed after years of attempted assimilation into Jordanian and Egyptian societies, must have a right to Self Determination.

I don't, however, support the PLO, whose ambition conflicts with Israel's right to Self Determination. Although Fatah is in the PLO, they are working well with the Israels in their transition, so I think Fatah can be trusted. An example of this was how Israel promoted the West Bank for a 100 million dollar loan to the IMF, which was denied because PA doesn't have state status yet. Hamas, on the other hand, can't, and that is why Gaza must be liberated and returned to the Palestinian Authorities.

Tell my why you don't support a one secular-state solution? Maybe you do? I might be misunderstanding you.

[seventeethdecember2016]

I have not said anything about jews, hell I even posted in RedJew's intro thread:
Zionism=//=Jews
But morons like you cant read.
It has already been proven that self determination doesnt apply here, and I have not ever talked about you being Jews.
You two support the oppressing of palestinians (you said that their self-determination only applies when it doesn't affect the one of Israel) you are a colonialist zionist and should threated as one. That has nothing to do with your religion.
As I have stated before, your circular reasoning holds no water. There is one reason why you'd recognized us as Zionists, and that reason is that you view us as Jews who recognize Israel's Right to Self Determination.

I also am not interested in reading your childish strawmans. I most certainly do not support colonialism, nor do I practice Judaism. I am a Sephardic Jew, but this is in fact irrelevant to reason why I support Israel's Right to Self Determination

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

As I have stated before, your circular reasoning holds no water. There is one reason why you'd recognized us as Zionists, and that reason is that you view us as Jews who recognize Israel's Right to Self Determination.

I also am not interested in reading your childish strawmans. I most certainly do not support colonialism, nor do I practice Judaism. I am a Sephardic Jew, but this is in fact irrelevant to reason why I support Israel's Right to Self Determination

Really? I view you as zionist nothing more than that.
I won't argue with your racist ass anymore.

Good night.

[Engels]

It might help if everybody could agree on a definition for “Zionism” in the first place.

Whatever Zionism was, it is my understanding that Zionism is currently the ideology connected with the Israeli State and provides justification for its expansionist policies.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Tell my why you don't support a one secular-state solution? Maybe you do? I might be misunderstanding you.
The secular system was tried during the British Mandate, and it failed miserably.

A two state solution between two separate Secular states will be the most efficient of strategies. These societies must break down what it means to be an Israeli or Palestinian before any Unification can occur. I also oppose calling a future Unified state Palestine or Israel, as it will eventually raise resentment, rather it should be called something along the lines of Canaan- or something else both states can relate to.

[El Chuncho]

Nice job equating Jews with Zionism.


He didn't equate Jews with Zionism. He meant the user , and your little friend, RedJew, who happens to be a zionist btw.

Yes, Havee, like any Zionist, likes to create anti-''Semiticism'' for political purposes when he actually can't find any legitimate anti-Jewish statement.

Red Jew is probably not even a Jew (e.g. a follower of Judaism) he probably just believes the nonsensical race theories peddled by Zionism. ''Red Jew'' would thus be a misnomer.







Israel is neither Imperialistic nor Colonialistic

Israel was truly founded by colonists from outside Israel (or from families that had only been in the region for less than 200 years, that is colonialism) and keeps expanding its territories (imperialism). Israel is thus an imperialist and colonialist nation.



You're an idiot

Fuck you, Havee, you racist, crypto-Zionist troll. You are the biggest fucking moron in the entire thread... after Red Jew.


Israel was formed by Mizrahi Jews who had lived in Israel just as long as the Arabs.

Bullshit. Usual Zionist propaganda.


Palestine, as it was known, was actually Israel and Jordan, which broke up after the Israeli Revolution.

Palestine was Palestine, you fucking retard, hence ''Mandatoy Palestine'', ''The British Mandate of Palestine'' etc. The region was Palestine since the Roman era. Israel is, indeed, a part of occupied Palestine, Jordan, was not usually a part of Palestine, only briefly, but it was under a British mandate (Transjordan) in the 1920s. Learn fucking history, you fucking pseudo-fascist, instead of relying on bullshit propaganda.


During the British Mandate of Palestine, the Jews were the ones in power anyway, as was custom of colonial powers to leave minorities in power, so it was actually much fairer to proclaim independence and let Arab countries govern themselves.

Awwww, how nice of the Great and Holy Israeli state for taking over Palestinian land despite the ''Jews'' being a minority of mostly colonists from Europe and Central Asia.




These Jews, as I've noted, were the ones who created Israel.

Not really, the modern state is different from a historical one. And ancient history doesn't give anyone the right to take land from a people who currently live in that land and had for over a thousand years.


Your a f**king idiot!

Sorry, Havee, but you are mentally retarded and a reactionary, Zionist ass-wipe to boot.


I simply recognize Israeli Self Determination, something Stalin recognized two days after Jordan, and her allies, went to war against Israel to stop the Revolution. If you're a Marxist-Leninist, you'd recognize Israel Self Determination, otherwise you're not really a Marxist-Leninist.

HAHAHAHA! Yes, Marxism-Leninism depends on pro-Israeli sentiments. I keep forgetting that Zionism was a core tenant of Marxism-Leninism. Bullshit. And Stalin grew increasingly critical of Zionism, even if, to his shame, he supported Israel early one (more because he was against British imperialism). Infact by the time of Stalin's death, there was absolutely no relations between the USSR and Israel. In other words, you are not a real Marxist-Leninist because you have not turned your back on Israel like the Soviet leadership of the ''Stalinist'' era did. See how easy that is?


And f**k you! You're just a charlatan, and I am ashamed that I am in the same school of thought as you.

Fuck you, you fucking pseudo-fascist, Zionist, reactionary scum. And I am sure most MLs would hate to be in the same school of thought as you, especially as most ML organizations support Palestine over Israel. Why don't you run back to Irgun, a group which you would find a more natural kinship with?

[El Chuncho]

Yes, I realized that before posting, but thanks for playing the role of a demagogue.

If you are really not antisemitic, as you claim, than stop generalizing against Jews who recognize Israel's right to Self Determination. WE ARE NOT ZIONISTS!!!!


He isn't an anti-''Semite'', you fucking moron, he is from a Jewish family (whether he is Jewish (e.g. a follower of Judaism) or not). Unlike you, however, he doesn't subscribe to your racist and fascist-inspired ideology, you faux-leftist toss pot.

No one here is stating that all Jews, or all people from a Jewish family, are Zionists. However, you are a Zionist even if you claim otherwise.

[GallowsBird]

The State of Palestine seized to exist after Jordan and Israel declared independence, and further carved up the land of Canaan.

So Jordan and Israel decided they wanted to carve up PALESTINE and thus the Palestinians should have no say in whether the State of Palestine does or does not exist (they do think it exists by the way)? That is a pretty flawed line of thought.


Israel was formed by Mizrahi Jews who had lived in Israel just as long as the Arabs.

Pure myth. Israel was created with the signing of the Declaration of Israeli Independence in 14 May 1948 which was created and signed by David Ben-Gurion (Polish), Daniel Auster (Galician), Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (Ukrainian), Mordechai Bentov (Polish), Eliyahu Berligne (Belorussian), Peretz Bernstein (German), Rachel Cohen-Kagan (Ukrainian), Eliyahu Dobkin (Belorussian) Yehuda Leib Fishman (Bessarabian), Wolf Gold (Polish/German), Meir Grabovsky (Novorussian/Moldovan), Avraham Granovsky (Bessarabian), Yitzhak Gruenbaum (Polish), Kalman Kahana (Galician), Eliezer Kaplan (Belorussian), Avraham Katznelson (Belorussian), Saadia Kobashi (Yemenite), Moshe Kol (Belorussian), Yitzhak-Meir Levin (Polish), Meir David Loewenstein (Danish), Zvi Luria (?), Golda Meier (Ukrainian), Nahum Nir (Polish), David-Zvi Pinkas (Austrian-Hungarian), Felix Rosen (German), David Remez (Belorussian), Berl Repetur (Ukrainian), Zvi Segal (? Certainly Ashkenazi in origin), Mordechai Shatner (Mordechai Shatner, from a Kibbutz in Palestine and of Russian origin), Ben-Zion Sternberg (Bukovinan/Austrian-Hungarian), Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (Mizrahi born in Ottoman Palestine), Haim-Moshe Shapira (Belorussian), Moshe Shertok (Ukrainian), Herzl Vardi (Lithuanian), Meir Vilner (Lithuanian), Zerach Warhaftig (Belorussian) and Aharon Zisling (Belorussian). As you see far more were from the Russian Empire than were from Palestine.


Palestine, as it was known, was actually Israel and Jordan, which broke up after the Israeli Revolution.

Er... no! Palestine as the name of the region is from antiquity but as we know it Palestine came into being as a British Mandate of the Ottoman Empire in 1920. Jordan is from Transjordan which was a Mandate from 1921 (and yes it was part of the Mandate of Palestine before that date, so long before the Israeli declaration). The old Palestine broke up into Transjordan/Jordan (long before the founding of Israel), Israel and the All-Palestine Government (created by the Arab League) and the non-recognised and dispossessed people of Palestine.



During the British Mandate of Palestine, the Jews were the ones in power anyway, as was custom of colonial powers to leave minorities in power, so it was actually much fairer to proclaim independence and let Arab countries govern themselves.

:confused: WHAT!? :confused:

[seventeethdecember2016]

Yes, Havee, like any Zionist, likes to create anti-''Semiticism'' for political purposes when he actually can't find any legitimate anti-Jewish statement.
I will retract my points as soon as he gives my proof, besides circular reasoning, that I am a Zionist.


Red Jew is probably not even a Jew (e.g. a follower of Judaism) he probably just believes the nonsensical race theories peddled by Zionism. ''Red Jew'' would thus be a misnomer.
Antisemitic comment.


Israel was truly founded by colonists from outside Israel (or from families that had only been in the region for less than 200 years, that is colonialism) and keeps expanding its territories (imperialism). Israel is thus an imperialist and colonialist nation.
Oh yes, forget about the 600,000 Mizrahi Jews that lived in the British Mandate, who also formed the state of Israel, and classify them as 'European.' You know, this is an attack against an Ethnic group.



Fuck you, Havee, you racist, crypto-Zionist troll. You are the biggest fucking moron in the entire thread... after Red Jew.
Zionist is apparently the new 'Jew.' For whatever reason I'm being called a Zionist, a racist, a bunch of things for simply stating that I support Israeli Self Determination.



Bullshit. Usual Zionist propaganda.
:laugh:



Palestine was Palestine, you fucking retard, hence ''Mandatoy Palestine'', ''The British Mandate of Palestine'' etc. The region was Palestine since the Roman era. Israel is, indeed, a part of occupied Palestine, Jordan, was not part of Palestine, but it was under a British mandate (Transjordan). Learn fucking history, you fucking pseudo-fascist, instead of relying on bullshit propaganda.
There was a Ottoman region known as Judea created exclusively for Jews. Once again, your an idiot.
http://208.84.118.121/images/map_palestine_mandate.jpg



Awwww, how nice of the Great and Holy Israeli state for taking over Palestinian land despite the ''Jews'' being a minority of mostly colonists from Europe and Central Asia.

Here was the proposed Jewish and Arab states, all based on ethnic make-up of depicted regions.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/db/UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.svg/200px-UN_Partition_Plan_For_Palestine_1947.svg.png




Not really, the modern state is different from a historical one. And ancient history doesn't give anyone the right to take land from a people who currently live in that land and had for over a thousand years.
The proposition was a JEWISH state, which was not supposed to be based on a civilization that broke up 2 thousand years ago. Some early propositions were to call it Judea, as that was the Ottoman province, but they instead made it Israel.



HAHAHAHA! Yes, Marxism-Leninism depends on pro-Israeli sentiments. I keep forgetting that Zionism was a core tenant of Marxism-Leninism. Bullshit. And Stalin grew increasingly critical of Zionism, even if, to his shame, he supported Israel early one (more because he was against British imperialism). Infact by the time of Stalin's death, there was absolutely no relations between the USSR and Israel. In other words, you are not a real Marxist-Leninist because you have not turned your back on Israel like the Soviet leadership of the ''Stalinist'' era did. See how easy that is?
Complete nonsense! You know, there is a reason why the Soviet Union only recognized Israel after it was invaded by Arab countries, and that reason was for NATIONAL SELF DETERMINATION of the people of ISRAEL!!!



Fuck you, you fucking pseudo-fascist, Zionist, reactionary scum. And I am sure most MLs would hate to be in the same school of thought as you, especially as most ML organizations support Palestine over Israel. Why don't you run back to Irgun, a group which you would find a more natural kinship with?
Big words for a gentlemen that can't even gulp down the entirety of what he said. Conformity is a great crime, and it is why Marxist-Leninists, like yourself, get pushed into supporting Ultra-Nationalist movements like that in Palestine. I care little if a few pseudo-Marxist-Leninists support Palestine's Reconquesta against Israel.

[El Chuncho]

Havee is either a troll or an idiot. He'd certainly say that the subjugation of the Palestinian people and the hacking up of their homeland was fair.

[seventeethdecember2016]

So Jordan and Israel decided they wanted to carve up PALESTINE and thus the Palestinians should have no say in whether the State of Palestine does or does not exist (they do think it exists by the way)? That is a pretty flawed line of thought.
Well, the problem in this case was that 'Palestine' was used as a political gimmick so the Jordanians had land claims on Israel. It was nothing more than a puppet to begin with, and surely not the Palestine we know now.


Pure myth. Israel was created with the signing of the Declaration of Israeli Independence in 14 May 1948 which was created and signed by David Ben-Gurion (Polish), Daniel Auster (Galician), Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (Ukrainian), Mordechai Bentov (Polish), Eliyahu Berligne (Belorussian), Peretz Bernstein (German), Rachel Cohen-Kagan (Ukrainian), Eliyahu Dobkin (Belorussian) Yehuda Leib Fishman (Bessarabian), Wolf Gold (Polish/German), Meir Grabovsky (Novorussian/Moldovan), Avraham Granovsky (Bessarabian), Yitzhak Gruenbaum (Polish), Kalman Kahana (Galician), Eliezer Kaplan (Belorussian), Avraham Katznelson (Belorussian), Saadia Kobashi (Yemenite), Moshe Kol (Belorussian), Yitzhak-Meir Levin (Polish), Meir David Loewenstein (Danish), Zvi Luria (?), Golda Meier (Ukrainian), Nahum Nir (Polish), David-Zvi Pinkas (Austrian-Hungarian), Felix Rosen (German), David Remez (Belorussian), Berl Repetur (Ukrainian), Zvi Segal (? Certainly Ashkenazi in origin), Mordechai Shatner (Mordechai Shatner, from a Kibbutz in Palestine and of Russian origin), Ben-Zion Sternberg (Bukovinan/Austrian-Hungarian), Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (Mizrahi born in Ottoman Palestine), Haim-Moshe Shapira (Belorussian), Moshe Shertok (Ukrainian), Herzl Vardi (Lithuanian), Meir Vilner (Lithuanian), Zerach Warhaftig (Belorussian) and Aharon Zisling (Belorussian). As you see far more were from the Russian Empire than were from Palestine.

This greatly underscores the Mizrahi fighters and politicians. It also makes little sense, as leaders of the British Mandate of Palestine were mostly Mizrahis. It also doesn't change the fact that Mizrahis made up the bulk of revolutionary fighters.


Er... no! Palestine as the name of the region is from antiquity but as we know it Palestine came into being as a British Mandate of the Ottoman Empire in 1920. Jordan is from Transjordan which was a Mandate from 1921 (and yes it was part of the Mandate of Palestine before that date, so long before the Israeli declaration). The old Palestine broke up into Transjordan/Jordan (long before the founding of Israel), Israel and the All-Palestine Government (created by the Arab League) and the non-recognised and dispossessed people of Palestine.
Then what do you call the Ottoman region of Judea, which was made precisely for Jews? Other members have brought up this point already, and repeating their points doesn't make it right.
I addressed many of your points in my prior comment.



:confused: WHAT!? :confused:
Sunnis in Iraq(a majority Shia country), Alawites in Syria(a majority Sunni country), Jews in Palestine(a majority Muslim country), Maronites in Lebanon(a majority Muslim country), etc., etc.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Havee is either a troll or an idiot. He'd certainly say that the subjugation of the Palestinian people and the hacking up of their homeland was fair.
This is ironic, as I haven't seen a well thought out comment coming from you since we begun this dispute.

Also, I should note that Arabs that decided to stay in Israel were treated well, so I don't know what your point is with your last comment.

[El Chuncho]

I will retract my points as soon as he gives my proof, besides circular reasoning, that I am a Zionist.

You are as Zionist as they come, Havee, and Red''Jew'' even more so. Your support for Israel, your manufacturing of myths, your distortion of truths prove you to be a Zionist.



Antisemitic comment.

The usual Zionist tactic of creating anti-''Semiticism'' where there is none.



Oh yes, forget about the 600,000 Mizrahi Jews that lived in the British Mandate, who also formed the state of Israel, and classify them as 'European.' You know, this is an attack against an Ethnic group.

Israel was founded by European Jews, Mizrahi Jews (a minority in Palestine) do not come into it.




Zionist is apparently the new 'Jew.'

It is more like the new fascism, I am afraid to say.


For whatever reason I'm being called a Zionist, a racist, a bunch of things for simply stating that I support Israeli Self Determination.

Israeli Self-determination is based on an imperialist, racist and colonialist ideology. You are not a Zionist because you are a Jew (are you a Jew? You follow Judaism?), you are a Zionist because you are an Israeli nationalist.






There was a Ottoman region known as Judea created exclusively for Jews. Once again, your an idiot.
http://208.84.118.121/images/map_palestine_mandate.jpg

Palestine was a term used since antiquity. Do the research, retard.




The proposition was a JEWISH state, which was not supposed to be based on a civilization that broke up 2 thousand years ago.

:rolleyes: Zionism (Israelism if you wish) was based on the idea that Jews have a right to a land that ceased to exist around 2000 years ago. The fact that there was a Jewish minority in Palestine is unimportant, it was Palestinians land (and by Palestinian, I do not mean Muslim but Muslim, Jew, Christian and Atheist).


Complete nonsense! You know, there is a reason why the Soviet Union only recognized Israel after it was invaded by Arab countries, and that reason was for NATIONAL SELF DETERMINATION of the people of ISRAEL!!!

The Soviet Union cut off direct relations with Israel. Fact.




Big words for a gentlemen that can't even gulp down the entirety of what he said.


Conformity is a great crime, and it is why Marxist-Leninists, like yourself, get pushed into supporting Ultra-Nationalist movements like that in Palestine.

All true leftists support Palestine over Israel and PLO are hardly Ultra-Nationalist. We support Palestinian self-determination because we are against imperialism and colonialism. And why should be support one of the USA's lapdogs, anyway? Get a grip.


I care little if a few pseudo-Marxist-Leninists support Palestine's Reconquesta against Israel.

Yet, you think it is acceptable to support a ''Jewish'' ''reconquesta'' against the Palestians? What a deranged little turd you are!

[El Chuncho]

This is ironic, as I haven't seen a well thought out comment coming from you since we begun this dispute.

That is a little rich seeing as your arguments are mostly based on propaganda and lies (Jordanians being the Palestinians? Give me a fucking break. :laugh:).

[The Young Pioneer]

I tend to support Zionism

WHY IS THERE THIS GIANT ARGUMENT ABOUT WHO IS A ZIONIST WHEN HE FUCKING GIVES IT AWAY IN THE OP?!

Read, people.


Also, lol. Great thread. Really surprised our bro hasn't gotten restricted yet, closely followed by Have33333333. Blabbered on incoherently until we get to the level of "Yer a holocaust denier!!!one!!" ridiculousness.

So amusing. :lol:

[GallowsBird]

Also, I should note that Arabs that decided to stay in Israel were treated well, so I don't know what your point is with your last comment.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I know you are a Zionist and all but surely you jest!?! :confused: Define treated well exactly. I think we all know how the Arabs (Palestinians) in Israel are treated and it certainly isn't "well". :rolleyes:

[El Chuncho]

Great to see that everyone who disagrees with Havee is gradually becoming an anti-Semite (according to him) in this thread. We should start a club. :rolleyes:










I love how Zionists always manufacture their own anti-Semiticism by making anti-Zionism (and not all Zionist are even Jewish) into some sort of attack on Jews. Here is another anti-Jewish scumbag:

qrwErAJy5K4

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

WHY IS THERE THIS GIANT ARGUMENT ABOUT WHO IS A ZIONIST WHEN HE FUCKING GIVES IT AWAY IN THE OP?!

Read, people.


Also, lol. Great thread. Really surprised our bro hasn't gotten restricted yet, closely followed by Have33333333. Blabbered on incoherently until we get to the level of "Yer a holocaust denier!!!one!!" ridiculousness.

So amusing. :lol:

:lol:

[seventeethdecember2016]

You are as Zionist as they come, Havee, and Red''Jew'' even more so. Your support for Israel, your manufacturing of myths, your distortion of truths prove you to be a Zionist.
This is ironic, as it is actually the case for you with this manufacturing and whatnot.





The usual Zionist tactic of creating anti-''Semiticism'' where there is none.

Generalization of Jews is most certainly antisemitic. I, and my comrade, are not Zionist because we are Jews. I also don't have some sadistic mind based on circular reasoning, as you apparently have, so I cannot quite understand how we can be Zionists simply for supporting Israel's right to Self Determination.



Israel was founded by European Jews, Mizrahi Jews (a minority in Palestine) do not come into it.
This is a typical Fascist claim, which they use to deny the Holocaust.



It is more like the new fascism, I am afraid to say.
This is simply to shy away from your own antisemitic stances.



Israeli Self-determination is based on an imperialist, racist and colonialist ideology. You are not a Zionist because you are a Jew (are you a Jew? You follow Judaism?), you are a Zionist because you are an Israeli nationalist.
F**k you! How dare you call me a Nationalist! One can easily turn your simplistic argument back against you, and we can see that it really holds no water.
Apperently someone who supports Israel's right to Self Determination is a Zionist, and an Israeli Nationalist, but someone who supports Palestine's Right to Self Determination(of which I also support) isn't?

It seems Israel is the exception to this rule, and rules with exceptions are always bad rules.



Palestine was a term used since antiquity. Do the research, retard.
This is common knowledge, and a lot of its population was made up of Jews.



:rolleyes: Zionism (Israelism if you wish) was based on the idea that Jews have a right to a land that ceased to exist around 2000 years ago. The fact that there was a Jewish minority in Palestine is unimportant, it was Palestinians land (and by Palestinian, I do not mean Muslim but Muslim, Jew, Christian and Atheist).
Israel should be better known as a Jewish state, as that was what the Zionists lobbied for. The Jewish state, in 1947, made a proposition to leave the Union in the British Mandate, breaking the country into different regions that housed large Jewish and Muslims populations. Jordan said no, and went to war with Israel. The Soviet Union recognized Israel 2 days later, and eventually Israel defended itself from invasion and expanded. The Palestinian puppet state was dissolved, and carved up by Egypt, Israel, and Jordan. In 1964, a Reactionary movement lead by Yassar Arafat seized power in the West Bank and went to war with Israel, in 1967, and Israel occupied it for security purposes. That is the history of 'Palestine' since the British Mandate.



The Soviet Union cut off direct relations with Israel. Fact.
Under Khrushchev...




All true leftists support Palestine over Israel and PLO are hardly Ultra-Nationalist. We support Palestinian self-determination because we are against imperialism and colonialism. And why should be support one of the USA's lapdogs, anyway? Get a grip.
I don't want to here any No True Scotsman fallacies.




Yet, you think it is acceptable to support a ''Jewish'' ''reconquesta'' against the Palestians? What a deranged little turd you are!
I constantly have pointed out that the PA and Israel area working together. I oppose those who agitate these groups, such as idiots like you. Although Palestine was recreated after dissolution, I still respect their right to self determination. That means that Israel will eventually have to give up full authority to the Palestinian authorities. However Palestine needs a competent government that won't run murder campaigns across Israel, like in the past.

[GallowsBird]

WHY IS THERE THIS GIANT ARGUMENT ABOUT WHO IS A ZIONIST WHEN HE FUCKING GIVES IT AWAY IN THE OP?!

Read, people.


Also, lol. Great thread. Really surprised our bro hasn't gotten restricted yet, closely followed by Have33333333. Blabbered on incoherently until we get to the level of "Yer a holocaust denier!!!one!!" ridiculousness.

So amusing. :lol:

I am now sorry for posting my last post before seeing this. Bravo! Bravo!

BEST. POST. IN. THREAD.

[seventeethdecember2016]

WHY IS THERE THIS GIANT ARGUMENT ABOUT WHO IS A ZIONIST WHEN HE FUCKING GIVES IT AWAY IN THE OP?!

Read, people.


Also, lol. Great thread. Really surprised our bro hasn't gotten restricted yet, closely followed by Have33333333. Blabbered on incoherently until we get to the level of "Yer a holocaust denier!!!one!!" ridiculousness.

So amusing. :lol:
Although we all want to throw out '2 cents' in for interesting arguments, I request that you keep your firing from a further distance. I really don't have time to respond to your worthless comments.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Although we all want to throw out '2 cents' in for interesting arguments, I request that you keep your firing from a further distance. I really don't have time to respond to your worthless comments.

You can't argue the truth?

[GallowsBird]

Generalization of Jews is most certainly antisemitic. I, and my comrade, are not Zionist because we are Jews.

You are correct. You are Zionists because you support Zionism. Your friend Red(sic)Jew(sic) even admitted he was a Zionist as the Young Pioneer excellently pointed out!



F**k you! How dare you call me a Nationalist!

Why? He is correct. You and RedJew support Zionism and are thus Zionists which makes you NATIONALISTS! It is really quite simple.





This is common knowledge, and a lot of its population was made up of Jews.

It is common knowledge that the majority of the population were Palestinians!

[seventeethdecember2016]

Great to see that everyone who disagrees with Havee is gradually becoming an anti-Semite (according to him) in this thread. We should start a club. :rolleyes:

I have already well demonstrated what I constitute as antisemitic. Anti-Zionism is alright, as I myself am Anti-Zionist. However, I don't recognize childish idiots like you that don't actually know what Zionism is. There is a neo-Zionist movement, which I have decried before, but Israel patriotism and nationalism are not equivalent to Zionism.
It is really a strawman fallacy if you knew what you were talking about.

You are an idiot, and I am not discouraged by your childish remarks. From a Psychological book I read in my college years, it described how those who make indirect attacks are often too unconfident to thoroughly make their points, and this is how I classify you and your friends.

[El Chuncho]

Generalization of Jews is most certainly antisemitic.

NO ONE IS MAKING THAT GENERALIZATION, YOU STUPID, FUCKING RETARD! How many times do we have to point this out. Not all Jews are Zionists. You, whether Jewish or not, are a Zionist and so is RedJew.


I also don't have some sadistic mind based on circular reasoning, as you apparently have, so I cannot quite understand how we can be Zionists simply for supporting Israel's right to Self Determination.

Correction, you support Israeli nationalism and imperialism.



This is a typical Fascist claim, which they use to deny the Holocaust.

It is the truth, you cretinous shit-for-brains.



This is simply to shy away from your own antisemitic stances.

Except that I do not have an anti-Semitic stance, and, unlike you, I do not support a nation with an absurd racial policy.

Anti-Zionism is not anti-Semitism, by the way. See the video of real Jews protesting against Israel. I posted it above. And shut the fuck up about anti-Semiticism and the Holocaust, because they cannot divert attention away from your support Israeli fascism.



F**k you! How dare you call me a Nationalist!

You are a nationalist, you reactionary shitlicker.


One can easily turn your simplistic argument back against you, and we can see that it really holds no water.

OK, explain to me how I you can claim that I am a nationalist, then?


Apperently someone who supports Israel's right to Self Determination is a Zionist, and an Israeli Nationalist, but someone who supports Palestine's Right to Self Determination(of which I also support) isn't?

Palestine is the occupied country. That is why we support their right to self-determination.


It seems Israel is the exception to this rule, and rules with exceptions are always bad rules.

USA has no ''right to self-determination'' either because it is not an occupied state.




This is common knowledge, and a lot of its population was made up of Jews.

They were a minority religious group, and most Jews in Palestine were not originally from Palestine.




Israel should be better known as a Jewish state, as that was what the Zionists lobbied for. The Jewish state, in 1947, made a proposition to leave the Union in the British Mandate, breaking the country into different regions that housed large Jewish and Muslims populations. Jordan said no, and went to war with Israel. The Soviet Union recognized Israel 2 days later, and eventually Israel defended itself from invasion and expanded. The Palestinian puppet state was dissolved, and carved up by Egypt, Israel, and Jordan. In 1964, a Reactionary movement lead by Yassar Arafat seized power in the West Bank and went to war with Israel, in 1967, and Israel occupied it for security purposes. That is the history of 'Palestine' since the British Mandate.

YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNN. Again, stop with the Jordanian Palestinian puppet state nonsense. That is Zionist propaganda and nothing more.



Under Khrushchev...

No, read what I said. Direct relations were severed by the time Stalin had died.





I don't want to here any No True Scotsman fallacies.

You started it, shitwit. :laugh:





However Palestine needs a competent government that won't run murder campaigns across Israel, like in the past.

And it is OK for Israel to run murder campaigns then? I do not see why Palestine has an incompetent government whereas Israel does. Israel has committed countless atrocities in the Middle-East.

[El Chuncho]

I have already well demonstrated what I constitute as antisemitic. Anti-Zionism is alright, as I myself am Anti-Zionist. However, I don't recognize childish idiots like you that don't actually know what Zionism is. There is a neo-Zionist movement, which I have decried before, but Israel patriotism and nationalism are not equivalent to Zionism.
It is really a strawman fallacy if you knew what you were talking about.

You are an idiot, and I am not discouraged by your childish remarks. From a Psychological book I read in my college years, it described how those who make indirect attacks are often too unconfident to thoroughly make their points, and this is how I classify you and your friends.


:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Funny that your posts sound more like they are about yourself. :lol:

[seventeethdecember2016]

You are correct. You are Zionists because you support Zionism. Your friend Red(sic)Jew(sic) even admitted he was a Zionist as the Young Pioneer excellently pointed out!
Circular reasoning, nice try.

And no, someone is not Zionist because they think the PLO is fully of Fascists.
We already had this discussion hours ago, so I request you read content in this thread more thoroughly before responding again.



Why? He is correct. You and RedJew support Zionism and are thus Zionists which makes you NATIONALISTS! It is really quite simple.
Slippery slope. Keep going, we might just end up in a predicament where all the types of fallacies are used in this thread.

Also, you really don't have a strong basis to call me, or my friend, Zionist without employing some kind of circular reasoning.



It is common knowledge that the majority of the population were Palestinians!
Yes, and the large Imperial Palestinian state was fragmented into smaller states.

Just like how Turkestan was fragmented into several states based on ethnicity by Stalin.

[GallowsBird]

I have already well demonstrated what I constitute as antisemitic.

Anyone who is Anti-Israel and Zionism?



Anti-Zionism is alright, as I myself am Anti-Zionist.

Then why is your friend a self-confessed Zionist and why do you support Zionism then.




However, I don't recognize childish idiots like you that don't actually know what Zionism is. There is a neo-Zionist movement, which I have decried before, but Israel patriotism and nationalism are not equivalent to Zionism.


Yes it is. Again, that is pure nonsense.


It is really a strawman fallacy if you knew what you were talking about.

Is "strawman" your favourite word or something... or are you the worlds biggest 'Worzel Gummidge fan?


From a Psychological book I read in my college years,

What a qualification! You once read a psychology book! Don't give up the day job, Sigmund!

I am starting to really love Havee, all his posts are comedy gold! :laugh:

[electrostal]

It seems Israel is the exception to this rule, and rules with exceptions are always bad rules.
Is that really so?


Under Khrushchev...
Weren't diplomatic relations broken off in 1952 after some bombs exploded in the Soviet embassy in Tel Aviv? Although Wikipedia says that they were again restored in a few months...

[GallowsBird]

Circular reasoning, nice try.

That does not constitute circular reasoning dumkopf!


And no, someone is not Zionist because they think the PLO is fully of Fascists.
We already had this discussion hours ago, so I request you read content in this thread more thoroughly before responding again.

Read almost every post against you again!



Also, you really don't have a strong basis to call me, or my friend, Zionist without employing some kind of circular reasoning.

Why don't you take it up with RedJew then? He was the one who said he supported Zionism. Oh, I forgot apparently supporting Zionism doesn't make someone a Zionist just interested in Israeli Self-Determination!



Yes, and the large Imperial Palestinian state was fragmented into smaller states.

The Great and Holy Palestinian Empire! :laugh:


Just like how Turkestan was fragmented into several states based on ethnicity by Stalin.

You are comparing the granting of autonomous rights to various ethnic groups native or near native to the region with an imperialist settlement and partition of someone else's country? Great! True Marxism at work!

[El Chuncho]

Circular reasoning, nice try.

Funny that you do not really know what circular reasoning really is. Let me tell you, myself, why you are a Zionist; you support Israel's claim on Palestine, you think the ''Jews'' had a right to created Israel in the country of another people (Palestinians), you spout nonsense about Palestine being a puppet state created by Jordan and you defend the views of RedJew, who, as both Young Pioneer and GallowsBird have pointed out, is a self-confessed Zionist.


And no, someone is not Zionist because they think the PLO is fully of Fascists.
We already had this discussion hours ago, so I request you read content in this thread more thoroughly before responding again.

Your claim that PLO is full of fascists doesn't hole any water and is hypocritical as Israel has a racial policy akin to National Socialism, but only slightly less-extreme.





Also, you really don't have a strong basis to call me, or my friend, Zionist without employing some kind of circular reasoning.

You should probably quit whining about circular reasoning, you are just making yourself look dumb. We have a very strong basis in calling RedJew a Zionist as HE CLAIMED TO BE ONE HIMSELF.

[El Chuncho]

Weren't diplomatic relations broken off in 1952 after some bombs exploded in the Soviet embassy in Tel Aviv?

Yes.


Although Wikipedia says that they were again restored in a few months...

The USSR had indirect relations with Israel after that point.

[X5N]

TheRedJew TheRedJew is offline
Banned

Ha

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Have333
Is banned aswell, I think.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Isn't it quite ironic that I got an ad for kabbalah above this thread.

[GallowsBird]

I am going to miss them! RevLeft is a less hilarious place now! :laugh:

[El Chuncho]

Havee and RedJew banned? They'll certainly see this as some sort of anti-Jewish pogrom now... :rolleyes: Revleft is run by Nazis, don't you know? :laugh:

Revleft will now resume transmission..................................

[Comrade Samuel]

Yes, Havee, like any Zionist, likes to create anti-''Semiticism'' for political purposes when he actually can't find any legitimate anti-Jewish statement.

Red Jew is probably not even a Jew (e.g. a follower of Judaism) he probably just believes the nonsensical race theories peddled by Zionism. ''Red Jew'' would thus be a misnomer.








Israel was truly founded by colonists from outside Israel (or from families that had only been in the region for less than 200 years, that is colonialism) and keeps expanding its territories (imperialism). Israel is thus an imperialist and colonialist nation.




Fuck you, Havee, you racist, crypto-Zionist troll. You are the biggest fucking moron in the entire thread... after Red Jew.



Bullshit. Usual Zionist propaganda.



Palestine was Palestine, you fucking retard, hence ''Mandatoy Palestine'', ''The British Mandate of Palestine'' etc. The region was Palestine since the Roman era. Israel is, indeed, a part of occupied Palestine, Jordan, was not usually a part of Palestine, only briefly, but it was under a British mandate (Transjordan) in the 1920s. Learn fucking history, you fucking pseudo-fascist, instead of relying on bullshit propaganda.



Awwww, how nice of the Great and Holy Israeli state for taking over Palestinian land despite the ''Jews'' being a minority of mostly colonists from Europe and Central Asia.





Not really, the modern state is different from a historical one. And ancient history doesn't give anyone the right to take land from a people who currently live in that land and had for over a thousand years.



Sorry, Havee, butyou are mentally retarded and a reactionary, Zionist ass-wipe to boot.



HAHAHAHA! Yes, Marxism-Leninism depends on pro-Israeli sentiments. I keep forgetting that Zionism was a core tenant of Marxism-Leninism. Bullshit. And Stalin grew increasingly critical of Zionism, even if, to his shame, he supported Israel early one (more because he was against British imperialism). Infact by the time of Stalin's death, there was absolutely no relations between the USSR and Israel. In other words, you are not a real Marxist-Leninist because you have not turned your back on Israel like the Soviet leadership of the ''Stalinist'' era did. See how easy that is?



Fuck you, you fucking pseudo-fascist, Zionist, reactionary scum. And I am sure most MLs would hate to be in the same school of thought as you, especially as most ML organizations support Palestine over Israel. Why don't you run back to Irgun, a group which you would find a more natural kinship with?

Not to question the point of this post but not only is that ironic it's also offensive.

I may not be an expert on the situation going on there but what exactly is wrong with the OP's idea? Other than being nearly impossible to achieve I still don't exactly see what's wrong with the idea itself. Shouldn't our goal be achieving equality between the two and coming to an agreement that benefits both rather than automatically siding with palistinians on everything based solely on the past and present wrong doings of the Israelis?

[El Chuncho]

Not to question the point of this post but not only is that ironic it's also offensive.

You should read all of Havee's personal attacks on other members. He got what he deserved. It was pretty hard not to be offensive to the guy whilst he was calling me an idiot and an anti-Semite.


I may not be an expert on the situation going on there but what exactly is wrong with the OP's idea?

The guy was a self-confessed Zionist who called all Palestinians ''fascists''.


Other than being nearly impossible to achieve I still don't exactly see what's wrong with the idea itself. Shouldn't our goal be achieving equality between the two and coming to an agreement that benefits both rather than automatically siding with palistinians on everything based solely on the past and present wrong doings of the Israelis?

Yes, but we should not deny that Israel has no legitimated right to exist. ''Jews'' should be equal citizens of Palestine and they should not have been allowed to steal land from the Palestinian people, based on absurd notion of ownership supported by the Torah.

[GallowsBird]

Everyone who took part in this great conflict shall receive this cheap exquisite medal and have the title of Glorious Hero of The Socialist Union of RevLeft:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/MrOglivy/medal2.jpg

[Leftsolidarity]

Everyone who took part in this great conflict shall receive this cheap exquisite medal and have the title of Glorious Hero of The Socialist Union of RevLeft:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y235/MrOglivy/medal2.jpg

Do I get a purple heart for apparently being reported for trolling in this conflict?

[Comrade Trollface]

You get a purple nurple. With a bronze oak-leaf cluster.

[cynicles]

I still thinks these guys were hasbara trolls paid by the Israeli government, I just wish I could find the article on mondoweiss about it to link.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

I will wear the medal with pride.

[Comrade Trollface]

I still thinks these guys were hasbara trolls paid by the Israeli government, I just wish I could find the article on mondoweiss about it to link.Say what you will about Hasbara, but they make delicious hummus.

[cynicles]

Say what you will about Hasbara, but they make delicious hummus.
If you've never tasted good hummus before maybe :p