hello

[TheRedJew]

hey, a friend of mine told me about this forum so i signed up.
My name is Omer and i come from Israel, i am a Marxist-Leninist and i make youtube gaming videos (you can check them out (http://www.youtube.com/user/MrOmerde12?feature=mhee) if you want)
i don't support palestine facist liberation movements in any way and i don't support the Israeli govrement.
please take note that israel is not zionist, and zionism died in 1948.
if you want to ask me questions about this then messege me.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Palestine Fascist Liberation?
You are joking right?

[TheRedJew]

Palestine Fascist Liberation?
You are joking right?

wait. do you say that hamas and fatah are not islamic facists?

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

wait. do you say that hamas and fatah are not islamic facists?

Yeah, but I think that is as a result of the Israeli government. Also I believe there are Marxist groups in Palestine.

[Book O'Dead]

Yeah, but I think that is as a result of the Israeli government. Also I believe there are Marxist groups in Palestine.

By that logic we could blame the Jews for Hitler's crimes.

[TheRedJew]

Yeah, but I think that is as a result of the Israeli government. Also I believe there are Marxist groups in Palestine.

you have to understand that if right now palestine will be created it would be facist.
in every country there is marxists, but israeli population are much more socialists oriented then palestine

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

you have to understand that if right now palestine will be created it would be facist.
in every country there is marxists, but israeli population are much more socialists oriented then palestine

Again, the fascist aspects are a result of the murdering and opressing done by Israel.

[TheRedJew]

Again, the fascist aspects are a result of the murdering and opressing done by Israel.

you should know that the Jewish plortarient is also being opressed and it is not fair that the arabs are getting all the attention

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

you should know that the Jewish plortarient is also being opressed and it is not fair that the arabs are getting all the attention

Israeli =/= Jew

Also, I somehow agree, but if you see how much more the Palestinians get oppressed .the amount of attention they get (which still isn't enough) does seem to be fair.

[TheRedJew]

Israeli =/= Jew

Also, I somehow agree, but if you see how much more the Palestinians get oppressed .the amount of attention they get (which still isn't enough) does seem to be fair.

but that is just what happens in every capitalist country, the minorities will be opressed until revolution comes.
the reason the zionists are being blamed for all the world problems is, because they are jewish.
it is just like nazi propaganda when they said that zionism was a massive conspiracy.
it is just weird for me that both facists and leftists (and haredic jews) hate zionism.
i think that zionism does not exist anymore and it died in 1948.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

but that is just what happens in every capitalist country, the minorities will be opressed until revolution comes.
the reason the zionists are being blamed for all the world problems is, because they are jewish.
it is just like nazi propaganda when they said that zionism was a massive conspiracy.
it is just weird for me that both facists and leftists (and haredic jews) hate zionism.
i think that zionism does not exist anymore and it died in 1948.

I don't blame zionism for world problems, blame it for the problems in Palestine.
Also instead of saying in every thread that it died in 1948 give some fucking proof will ya.

[TheRedJew]

I don't blame zionism for world problems, blame it for the problems in Palestine.
Also instead of saying in every thread that it died in 1948 give some fucking proof will ya.i said i belive it died in 1948, do you want me to proof that i belive in it?
i am not trying to fight over this thing, so instead of arguing about zionism why dont you read what i think is the optimal solution?

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

i said i belive it died in 1948, do you want me to proof that i belive in it?
i am not trying to fight over this thing, so instead of arguing about zionism why dont you read what i think is the optimal solution?

You could give some proof why you think it died.
I can say: I believe bookshelves died in 2000

But that isn't right either, but I won't have to prove it because I said that I believe it?
So give some proof why you thin it died in 1948.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

you should know that the Jewish plortarient is also being opressed and it is not fair that the arabs are getting all the attention

Well, I don't know about Israel but in the United States, except for maybe the Flotillas trying to reach Gaza incidents, the vast, harsh, and massive oppression of the Palestinians almost never gets news coverage, and when it does it usually is in the context of "supporting Israel" and not saying a critical word about them.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3667
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=4090
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3767

Just a few examples.

Anyway, welcome to the forum.

I know you probably didn't mean to come off this way, but the above statement sounded a little racist.

[The Cheshire Cat]

Zionism is not dead at all. Most Isreali's still strive for an independent state based on the Jewish religion? Isreal is still stealing/colonizing parts of Palestine? What makes you think zionism has died?

And what makes you think Hamas and Fatah are fascists? You can call them muslism-fundamentalist, but not fascist. There is a difference. Besides, most fascists absolutely hate muslims. Besides the Turkish fascist groups, ofcourse.

And if the Isreali population is so much more socialist orientated than the Palestine population, then why are there popular (ex-)marxist movements in Palestine and not in Isreal? And why does Isreal has a right-wing government?

And I believe the Arabian population (or 'arabs', as you call them) both in Palestine and Israel, together with African immigrants, are far more opressed and exploited by the Isrealian government and Jewish extremists than the Isreali proletariat. I am not saying the Isreali proletariat is not suffering, as I know the prices for nearly everything are extremely high in Isreal, and that extremist Jewish groups have a lot of power, but I would not say that it is not fair that the Arabian population get more attention. They need more attention.

[TheRedJew]

You could give some proof why you think it died.
I can say: I believe bookshelves died in 2000

But that isn't right either, but I won't have to prove it because I said that I believe it?
So give some proof why you thin it died in 1948.

because the goal of zionism was to create an option for jews who didn't want to live in europe because of racism agnist jews.
so in 1948, when israel was created jews had an option to live in a country where there is no antisemitisem, so zionism is not needed anymore.
of course, your definition of zionism may be diffrent from mine so everything is possibale

[TheRedJew]

Well, I don't know about Israel but in the United States, except for maybe the Flotillas trying to reach Gaza incidents, the vast, harsh, and massive oppression of the Palestinians almost never gets news coverage, and when it does it usually is in the context of "supporting Israel" and not saying a critical word about them.
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3667
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=4090
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=3767

Just a few examples.

Anyway, welcome to the forum.

I know you probably didn't mean to come off this way, but the above statement sounded a little racist.
well, the capitalists want to keep the pops ignorant.
i am sorry if it sounded racist, i tried to make a joke about it being "not fair"
i will never say anything racist about arabs and i have a lot of arab friends

[Jimmie Higgins]

By that logic we could blame the Jews for Hitler's crimes.Actually I think by that logic, the equivalency would be: Polish Jews in Warsaw started hating any Germans for what the German occupation was doing to them or if some anti-racist blacks in the US drew the conclusion that all whites were responsible for black oppression. Despite NAZI fantasies, jewish people were the oppressed ones in Europe and were not responsible for anything that happened to the Germans - the German government had power over German Jews, forced them into smaller and smaller ghettos. For Palestinians it's the same, they have little ability to influence what the US and Israeli policies do to them (or force them into smaller and smaller areas). I'm not saying there's a historical equivalency, just that the hatred that some oppressed people hold towards the people who have power over them is not the same as the hatred the powerful have over the people they oppress.

It may not be good politics and it may be counterproductive and divisive, but anti-black racism and segregation created any anti-white black sentiments in the US; the carving up of land into an apartheid-like situation in Palestinian areas is the source of any modern antisemitic attitudes (when they do exist) taking root among people.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

well, the capitalists want to keep the pops ignorant.
i am sorry if it sounded racist, i tried to make a joke about it being "not fair"
i will never say anything racist about arabs and i have a lot of arab friends

Yeah, not buying it. Having arab friends doesn't mean what you say isn't racist.

[TheRedJew]

Yeah, not buying it. Having arab friends doesn't mean what you say isn't racist.

well, I know what you mean, but you can say that about every race.
besides, i am not racist, i hate every race equally :)

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

well, I know what you mean, but you can say that about every race.
besides, i am not racist, i hate every race equally :)

I don't take it as excuse for any race.

[TheRedJew]

I don't take it as excuse for any race.
well i didn't use it as an excuse.
i am not racist because my race is one of the races that suffered the most from racism and i just belive that all men were created equel

[The Cheshire Cat]

I am not sure wether you mean that your from the 'Jewish race', but your not. 'Jew' is not a race, it is an individual believing in the Jewish religion. Jews do not share a common ancestor so they are not a race. If you didn't mean that your from the Jewish race, then you can disregard this.

[TheRedJew]

I am not sure wether you mean that your from the 'Jewish race', but your not. 'Jew' is not a race, it is an individual believing in the Jewish religion. Jews do not share a common ancestor so they are not a race. If you didn't mean that your from the Jewish race, then you can disregard this.
wait wait wait, you say jews don't have a common ancesstor?
do you mean there are diffrent groups of jews?
like ashkenazi and spharadic and so on?
still we have a common ancestor (Yaacob) and all jewish communities have similar traditions which means they all come from the same place

[The Cheshire Cat]

According to your religion maybe, but if you would trace it back you wouldn't. But since your religious you won't believe this, so let me explain it this way: I could become a Jew if I wanted (I have some Jewish blood on my mothers and fathers side I believe), but I would probably not be from the same 'race' as you, as I am Germanic. Not that is matters. I just hope you understand that according to the definition of race there is no Jewish race.

[The Cheshire Cat]

And you don't have to originate from the same place to share traditions. Traditions also spread by the word.

[TheRedJew]

you know, until the early 20th century jews tend to live in small communities so assimilation are not a problem, today assimilation is much more serious then before so jews remaind geneticly similar to each other but it doesnt matter here, we are all comrades

[Comrade Trollface]

Oh damn- I'm not even going to tough this one :laugh:
Welcome anyway though.
you know, until the early 20th century jews tend to live in small communities so assimilation are not a problemDude, shut the fuck up. Not all Jews are/were Ashkenaz. And your statement is a gross oversimplification even re: the Ashkenazim. Just stop it, OK?

[TheRedJew]

Oh damn- I'm not even going to tough this one :laugh:
Welcome anyway though.

:confused: i dont even wanna know

[TheRedJew]

when did i say that all jews are ashkenaz?

[The Cheshire Cat]

In the early 20th century, there were jews all over the world, specifically in Western Europe and the US, so I am still not sure who you mean with the Jewish race as I still do not think there is such a thing. But maybe you mean the descendants from the Israelites and such? Those who didn't swarm out across the world and mixed with other races, stayed for centuries at the same place. They are called Palestinians now, with the expansion of the Islam they became muslims. And many of them are the victim of zionism. However, these days I do not believe there are 'real' races anymore, as nearly all races have mixed thanks to globalisation.

And I am afraid we are not all comrades. I wish we were, but as you might have discovered already, there is a lot of hostility among some of the communist currents. Especially between Stalinists and Trotskyists. It is sad but true.

[Comrade Trollface]

Because your jacked up statement only makes sense even vaguely (through still not quite) if you make that presumption. It just does not hold true for Jews living outside of the Pale of Settlement. Why the 20th? Lets start in the 16th century even. Like what about Dutch Jews? Or even Austro-Hungarian and German Jews? Or Jews in England after Cromwell let them back in? Or Jews in the USA? I could go on and on.

[TheRedJew]

Because the jacked up statement that I quoted only makes sense even vaguely (through still not quite) if you make that presumption. Did not hold true for Jews living outside of the Pale. Why the 20th? Lets start in the 16th century even. Like what about Dutch Jews? Or even Austro-Hungarian and German Jews? Or Jews in England after Cromwell let them back in? Or Jews in the USA? I could go on and on.
did i say that jews didn't live in other countries?
btw, ashkenazi jews are the ones who assimilated the most, jews who lived in arab states remaind jews until now, and the yemmenite jews are really close to the original israelites

[TheRedJew]

In the early 20th century, there were jews all over the world, specifically in Western Europe and the US, so I am still not sure who you mean with the Jewish race as I still do not think there is such a thing. But maybe you mean the descendants from the Israelites and such? Those who didn't swarm out across the world and mixed with other races, stayed for centuries at the same place. They are called Palestinians now, with the expansion of the Islam they became muslims. And many of them are the victim of zionism. However, these days I do not believe there are 'real' races anymore, as nearly all races have mixed thanks to globalisation.

And I am afraid we are not all comrades. I wish we were, but as you might have discovered already, there is a lot of hostility among some of the communist currents. Especially between Stalinists and Trotskyists. It is sad but true.

unfortunatly it seems that some people here forget about the revolution and rather fight with other leftist.
o well

[Permanent Revolutionary]

I am not sure wether you mean that your from the 'Jewish race', but your not. 'Jew' is not a race, it is an individual believing in the Jewish religion. Jews do not share a common ancestor so they are not a race. If you didn't mean that your from the Jewish race, then you can disregard this.

You're treading on ice here, comrade. Being Jewish may not constitute being part of a seperate race, but it is not just a religion. Atheist Jews do still identify as Jews, even though they don't believe in Judaism.
Being Jewish is a cultural construct, and is therefore also hereditary.

[TheRedJew]

You're treading on ice here, comrade. Being Jewish may not constitute being part of a seperate race, but it is not just a religion. Atheist Jews do still identify as Jews, even though they don't believe in Judaism.
Being Jewish is a cultural construct, and is therefore also hereditary.

It is more then that, jews have common genetical pattern, that is why you can tell if people are jewish by DNA tests

[Comrade Trollface]

It is more then that, jews have common genetical pattern, that is why you can tell if people are jewish by DNA tests
Not really. It isn't as big as that. There are just some genes that are likely to come up in a given statistical sample of Jews. Its not like every Jew has those genes:rolleyes:
Seriously- do your research.
Also, that has nothing to do with 'race' which is a social construct.

[Permanent Revolutionary]

It is more then that, jews have common genetical pattern, that is why you can tell if people are jewish by DNA tests

Yeah, you've been watching a bit too much of CSI, pal.
Genetic testing can only show a similarity between individuals. There is no "Genetic Standard for Jews" or any other ethnic group for that matter.
A DNA test can only show how likely an individual is of being jewish, english, scandinavian or japanese.

[Comrade Trollface]

did i say that jews didn't live in other countries?


No, you said that Jews mostly lived in small communities, so assimilation wasn't an issue till the 20th cen. Those are a few of the places where that wasn't at all true, boychick.

[The Cheshire Cat]

You're treading on ice here, comrade. Being Jewish may not constitute being part of a seperate race, but it is not just a religion. Atheist Jews do still identify as Jews, even though they don't believe in Judaism.
Being Jewish is a cultural construct, and is therefore also hereditary.

I see this as some sort of Jewish Nationalism, or whatever you want to call it. As far as I know, Jews have always been very supportive to one another, even if they were only related to Jews and were not Jews themselves. Maybe it is because Jews were hated in many parts of Europe, that they had to form close communities and support eachother? I don't know really. All I know is that they are not a race, even is they pretend or would like to be sometimes.

[TheRedJew]

No, you said that Jews mostly lived in small communities, so assimilation wasn't an issue till the 20th cen. Those are a few of the places where that wasn't at all true, boychick.

well what you said os not true.
jews rarely left their community and even today, jews mostly live inside the community

[Permanent Revolutionary]

I see this as some sort of Jewish Nationalism, or whatever you want to call it. As far as I know, Jews have always been very supportive to one another, even if they were only related to Jews and were not Jews themselves. Maybe it is because Jews were hated in many parts of Europe, that they had to form close communities and support eachother? I don't know really. All I know is that they are not a race, even is they pretend or would like to be sometimes.

The problem stems from the fact that the terms "race" and "ethnic groups" are used interchangeably.
And I wouldn't call it "nationalism", I would call it a method of self preservance. I mean the Jews have been persecuted for hundreds of years, so they sort of had to stay together

[Permanent Revolutionary]

well what you said os not true.
jews rarely left their community and even today, jews mostly live inside the community

Which country are you talking about here, because you sure as hell aren't talking about the Western countries.

[TheRedJew]

Which country are you talking about here, because you sure as hell aren't talking about the Western countries.

mostly in muslim states and middle age europe

[Permanent Revolutionary]

I'm glad to see we're discussing the topic from a contemporary perspective.

[The Cheshire Cat]

Maybe the definition of race is a source of the problem indeed. And self preservance was what I meant with the close communities part. But since there is no need for it any longer, I wouldn't call the current form of this self preservance self preservance anymore. But it is probably a remnant of the self preservance.

I am wondering though why this is so alive in the modern Jews. There are more groups of people who have been persecuted for hundreds of years(for example, the Mayans in South America), but they don't seem to have this method of self preservance, while they still are being attacked and persecuted by paramilitairies and the Mexican government. They have also formed closed communities, but I don't have the idea their support to one another is as strong as it is with modern Jews.

[TheRedJew]

:o
I'm glad to see we're discussing the topic from a contemporary perspective.

[TheRedJew]

Maybe the definition of race is a source of the problem indeed. And self preservance was what I meant with the close communities part. But since there is no need for it any longer, I wouldn't call the current form of this self preservance self preservance anymore. But it is probably a remnant of the self preservance.

I am wondering though why this is so alive in the modern Jews. There are more groups of people who have been persecuted for hundreds of years(for example, the Mayans in South America), but they don't seem to have this method of self preservance, while they still are being attacked and persecuted by paramilitairies and the Mexican government. They have also formed closed communities, but I don't have the idea their support to one another is as strong as it is with modern Jews.
if you well go one step forward woth this train of thoght you will start talking about a jewish world wide conspiracy :)
but seriously this is intresting but i think you can ask that about every nationality, why are americans together? or russians and so on

[Comrade Trollface]

middle age europe

That is quite a far cry from 'until the 20th century':rolleyes:

[mew]

troll?

[TheRedJew]

That is quite a far cry from 'until the 20th century':rolleyes:
stfu

[Sasha]

hey, welcome to the forum. :)

secular jew with a strong distaste for modern zionism and a intrest in historic zionism here myself, as an anarchist influenced autonomist i reject all nationstates, ethnic/religious based/dominated ones even more so, so certainly no love for the racist setler apartheid state israel.
If israel would respect the 1967 borders, and trade the right of return of the forced out palestinians for an end to the "law of return" for non-israeli jews and transfer to a fully secular and activily anti-rascist democracy i would be quite willing to accept its existence as a historical tragedy and treat it as any other liberal capitalist democracy though, until then i support groups like "anarchists against the wall" (http://www.awalls.org/) and here in the netherlands "een ander joods geluid" (http://eajg.nl/).

i dont know if you are familair with the writings of Hajo G. Meyer, a jewish holocaust survivor who is an adamant opponent of the Israeli "zionist" nationstate, if not try to get your hands on a copy of his book "the end of judeaism" (http://www.gmeyerbooks.com/the_end_of_judaism.asp), he argues that the existence of israel and modern zionism is the greatest threat to the fundaments (and so also to the further existence) of judaism today, or as the quote in the beginning of the book says;

"What is hateful to thee, do not unto thy fellowman;
this is the whole Torah. The rest is but commentary."


Rabbi Hillel (fl. 30 BC - 10 AD)


about your time here; feel free to first lurk a bit and get a feel for the place, please try not to go in to treads/discussions to much guns blazing if your not sure if you can articulate what you mean, we already have to many people with very strong opinons and very little understanding of zionism, judeaism, contemporary israel and palestinian oposition to have you at eacht others troaths to only find out after one or more got banned for flaming that you actually agreed all allong.

תיקון עולם
to a world without borders, nations and races

[TheRedJew]

well you seem friendly enogh, i think that Israel, should stay Jewish and that a palestinian homeland could be created only if israel becomes a socialist state.
i never planned to argue about this becasue i didn't know people hate Israel so much here.
most of my communist friends are pro zionism so it is kinda werid for me.
I got here because there are socialist protests going on israel now and we need revleft support, so i will open a thread about it later

[Sasha]

while we certainly have a tradtion of giving some special leeway to try to include secular zionists on the board, support for the restriction of freedom to travel and settle (esp on religious or ethnic grounds) is considerd a reactionary position here.
so based on your statements so far it may very be that the BoardAdminstration decides to resctrict you to the OI forum. Do not think that this is a purely anti-zionist position, if an irish republican would argue for an ireland for the catholics, a mormon for an independent utah led by the LDS or a black separatist for a blacks only country they would be restricted or banned as well.

do not think this means you are not welcome here, i for one would be very intrested in updates on the struggle of the israeli workers, just use a restriction to make your case inside the OI forum, you would still be able to read the rest of the forum and are encouraged to open an seperate OI thread on topic you want to discuss.
use OI to argue your beliefs and be either swayed or strengthend in them.

[Comrade Trollface]

stfuSir, I am swayed by your eloquence. I concede to you that the middle ages in Europe lasted well into 1899:laugh:

[Jimmie Higgins]

most of my communist friends are pro zionism so it is kinda werid for me.There are pro-zionist Labor and Socialist traditions, but currently they don't really exist outside of Israel to my understanding.


I got here because there are socialist protests going on israel now and we need revleft support, so i will open a thread about it laterI look forward to hearing about this and your thoughts about it.

[TheRedJew]

well I hope i won't be restricted, and i don't say that Israel should be for jews only, but at least should have a pro jewish policies, you see, right now israel is the only country where there is no hostality towrds jews.
and i will update on my opinion about the israeli strugle in the corospanding place

[TheRedJew]

also, i do not support current israeli gov in any way but i don't consider israeli facism as zionism so it is really an opinion thing, and you can't restric me over this

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

well I hope i won't be restricted, and i don't say that Israel should be for jews only, but at least should have a pro jewish policies, you see, right now israel is the only country where there is no hostality towrds jews.
and i will update on my opinion about the israeli strugle in the corospanding place

Really, so instead of policies that benefit all the people, onlly policies that benifit Jews?

[Permanent Revolutionary]

well I hope i won't be restricted, and i don't say that Israel should be for jews only, but at least should have a pro jewish policies, you see, right now israel is the only country where there is no hostality towrds jews.
and i will update on my opinion about the israeli strugle in the corospanding place

As Marxists we should advocate pro-proletarian policies, no matter the ethnic origin.

EDIT: And we should abolish all nation states, as they are illusions held in place by the bourgeoisie.

[Sasha]

also, i do not support current israeli gov in any way but i don't consider israeli facism as zionism so it is really an opinion thing, and you can't restric me over this

Thanx for your clarifications on your positions. Intresting that you call the current state of Israeli politics "fascist", while certainly despicable and racist I would never use that word, for most Israeli Israel is just another liberal bourgeois capitalist "democracy".
I guess the old saying "freedom without socialism is privilege (but socialism without freedom wil be tyranny)" comes to mind, but that's also my main argument against zionism...

[TheRedJew]

i posted another clarifation on the palestinian forum so go and check it out

[TheRedJew]

As Marxists we should advocate pro-proletarian policies, no matter the ethnic origin.

EDIT: And we should abolish all nation states, as they are illusions held in place by the bourgeoisie.

i mean that curent israel should support jews until a marxist society is possible, check out my new clarifation on the palestinian forum

[seventeethdecember2016]

Everyone should f**k off! I have always had a firm belief that RevLeft was full of antisemitics, ever since my Jewish Leftiest group was deleted, and this thread has more than proved it.

I will never understand this fetish pseudo-Lefties have with Palestine. It is completely a joke of a state! There are some competent parties in Palestine(DFLP), but they are out matched by their rivals, so you are mostly left to support Fascistic parties like Hamas or Fatah!

A lot of people, for whatever reason, associate Israel with an 'Apartheid state.' This rhetoric can't be further from the truth! Israel, a state where they allowed over a million Arabs stay after the Revolution, is far from an Apartheid state! If you want an Apartheid state, look at Turkey(my home country) or other neighboring countries that locked us up in little Diasporas and used us for thousands of years for political and economic purposes. After Turkish Independence, Ataturk allowed Jews to live equally as long as they were on track to assimilate. After his death, there were massive Pogroms in rural areas, which is why you'll never see Jews, Armenians, Greeks, etc. outside of big cities. In Iraq, a country that had a thriving Jewish communicate of over 150,000, is left to a few hundred.
One of my good friends from Marrakech, Morocco. tells me of similar tales.

When the British Mandate occurred, the UK intended for the entire stretch of land to be ruled by the Jewish minorities(similar to how the Sunnis lead in Iraq, Alawites in Syria- in the case of France, Maronites in Lebanon-in the case of France, etc., etc.). This means that not only were the Jews meant to lead the land of Zion, but also the West and East Bank(Jordan). Just look at all the land the Jews gave up for the sake of Independence. My friend was correct, Zionism ended in 1948. It ended because the objective, the independence of the land of Zion, was achieved. Zionism now means maintaining that country, not expansion.

What happened to National Self Determination?
If Israel ever dissolves, it'll be on its own terms!

I support Arab Self Determination as well, but to ignore the massive security dilemmas that exist in Israel is sacrilege.
And remember, ISRAEL HASN'T SEEN A DAY OF PEACE IN ITS ENTIRE HISTORY!!!!

[TheRedJew]

Everyone should f**k off! I have always had a firm belief that RevLeft was full of antisemitics, ever since my Jewish Leftiest group was deleted, and this thread has more than proved it.

I will never understand this fetish pseudo-Lefties have with Palestine. It is completely a joke of a state! There are some competent parties in Palestine(DFLP), but they are out matched by their rivals, so you are mostly left to support Fascistic parties like Hamas or Fatah!

A lot of people, for whatever reason, associate Israel with an 'Apartheid state.' This rhetoric can't be further from the truth! Israel, a state where they allowed over a million Arabs stay after the Revolution, is far from an Apartheid state! If you want an Apartheid state, look at Turkey(my home country) or other neighboring countries that locked us up in little Diasporas and used us for thousands of years for political and economic purposes. After Turkish Independence, Ataturk allowed Jews to live equally as long as they were on track to assimilate. After his death, there were massive Pogroms in rural areas, which is why you'll never see Jews, Armenians, Greeks, etc. outside of big cities. In Iraq, a country that had a thriving Jewish communicate of over 150,000, is left to a few hundred.
One of my good friends from Marrakech, Morocco. tells me of similar tales.

When the British Mandate occurred, the UK intended for the entire stretch of land to be ruled by the Jewish minorities(similar to how the Sunnis lead in Iraq, Alawites in Syria- in the case of France, Maronites in Lebanon-in the case of France, etc., etc.). This means that not only were the Jews meant to lead the land of Zion, but also the West and East Bank(Jordan). Just look at all the land the Jews gave up for the sake of Independence. My friend was correct, Zionism ended in 1948. It ended because the objective, the independence of the land of Zion, was achieved. Zionism now means maintaining that country, not expansion.

What happened to National Self Determination?
If Israel ever dissolves, it'll be on its own terms!

I support Arab Self Determination as well, but to ignore the massive security dilemmas that exist in Israel is sacrilege.
And remember, ISRAEL HASN'T SEEN A DAY OF PEACE IN ITS ENTIRE HISTORY!!!!
+1

[Sasha]

Why should I, a half jiddish/polish Jew have any leadership over a area my family never even came from (besides that I reject leadership and national self-determination in general), fuck that, I wouldn't even dream to lay claim to a piece of Poland, give me back the business the dutch goverment stole from my great grandpa while he was busy making his way back from the deadcamps, and yeah, some German restitution would be nice too but for the rest i lay claim to shit except the whole world for everyone.
And don't you dare call me an anti-semite, its the IDF bootlickers who we can blame for a fair bit of modern anti-semitism...

[TheRedJew]

You all are too busy fighting each other you forget the real enemy!
Srsly, I had neo nazis treated me with more respect then people here, and I barely posted anything here!
Leftists should stop fighting and unite aginst capitalism!

[Yuppie Grinder]

Everyone should f**k off! I have always had a firm belief that RevLeft was full of antisemitics, ever since my Jewish Leftiest group was deleted, and this thread has more than proved it.

I will never understand this fetish pseudo-Lefties have with Palestine. It is completely a joke of a state! There are some competent parties in Palestine(DFLP), but they are out matched by their rivals, so you are mostly left to support Fascistic parties like Hamas or Fatah!

A lot of people, for whatever reason, associate Israel with an 'Apartheid state.' This rhetoric can't be further from the truth! Israel, a state where they allowed over a million Arabs stay after the Revolution, is far from an Apartheid state! If you want an Apartheid state, look at Turkey(my home country) or other neighboring countries that locked us up in little Diasporas and used us for thousands of years for political and economic purposes. After Turkish Independence, Ataturk allowed Jews to live equally as long as they were on track to assimilate. After his death, there were massive Pogroms in rural areas, which is why you'll never see Jews, Armenians, Greeks, etc. outside of big cities. In Iraq, a country that had a thriving Jewish communicate of over 150,000, is left to a few hundred.
One of my good friends from Marrakech, Morocco. tells me of similar tales.

When the British Mandate occurred, the UK intended for the entire stretch of land to be ruled by the Jewish minorities(similar to how the Sunnis lead in Iraq, Alawites in Syria- in the case of France, Maronites in Lebanon-in the case of France, etc., etc.). This means that not only were the Jews meant to lead the land of Zion, but also the West and East Bank(Jordan). Just look at all the land the Jews gave up for the sake of Independence. My friend was correct, Zionism ended in 1948. It ended because the objective, the independence of the land of Zion, was achieved. Zionism now means maintaining that country, not expansion.

What happened to National Self Determination?
If Israel ever dissolves, it'll be on its own terms!

I support Arab Self Determination as well, but to ignore the massive security dilemmas that exist in Israel is sacrilege.
And remember, ISRAEL HASN'T SEEN A DAY OF PEACE IN ITS ENTIRE HISTORY!!!!

I don't if I should validate this completely awful post with a response but I will anyway because I'm such a great guy.

You are a twit.

They allowed Arabs to stay? Who says it should be up to them?

[seventeethdecember2016]

Why should I, a half jiddish/polish Jew have any leadership over a area my family never even came from (besides that I reject leadership and national self-determination in general), fuck that, I wouldn't even dream to lay claim to a piece of Poland, give me back the business the dutch goverment stole from my great grandpa while he was busy making his way back from the deadcamps, and yeah, some German restitution would be nice too but for the rest i lay claim to shit except the whole world for everyone.
And don't you dare call me an anti-semite, its the IDF bootlickers who we can blame for a fair bit of modern anti-semitism...
Israel was formed by Mizrahi Jews who had either moved to the British Mandate, from Arab countries, after it was formed, or lived there for thousands of years. The creation of the Israeli state was done by these gentlemen, so in many respects they did have legitimacy over the land. The Mizrahi populations, which still makes up roughly 40-50% of the Israeli population, has recently been overshadowed by the Ashkenazi, but they still have a lot of influence.

I was also not referring to you personally. You're earlier comments weren't antisemitic, I was rather directing that towards users like Comrade Trollface who had leaned towards it.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

You all are too busy fighting each other you forget the real enemy!
Srsly, I had neo nazis treated me with more respect then people here, and I barely posted anything here!
Leftists should stop fighting and unite aginst capitalism!

If you support Israel and it's crimes against the Palestine people (whether or not there are groups like Hamas) you are NOT a leftist, and I will not unite with you.

[seventeethdecember2016]

I don't if I should validate this completely awful post with a response but I will anyway because I'm such a great guy.

It really makes little difference whether you do it or not, as your comments lack quality.


They allowed Arabs to stay? Who says it should be up to them?
I was merely pointing out that they didn't expel Arabs, unlike how Arab countries, such as Iraq, did. Iran is actually one of the most respectful countries, in the middle east, towards Jewish minorities.

[TheRedJew]

If you support Israel and it's crimes against the Palestine people (whether or not there are groups like Hamas) you are NOT a leftist, and I will not unite with you.

Did I ever say I support Israeli gov?
I support Israeli people.
If you cant unite aginst capitalism because of this YOU are not a leftist. Screw you

[seventeethdecember2016]

If you support Israel and it's crimes against the Palestine people (whether or not there are groups like Hamas) you are NOT a leftist, and I will not unite with you.
What are you talking about? Who said we support Israel murdering Palestinians?

Why is defending Israeli Self Determination equivalent to supporting murder? Do they not deserve competent security, especially since they haven't seen a day of peace in the entirety of their existence?

Stop using Strawmans.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Did I ever say I support Israeli gov?
I support Israeli people.
If you cant unite aginst capitalism because of this YOU are not a leftist. Screw you

Yeah, but you deny a normal life for Palestinians. You say they can't have their own government because of groups like hamas, but they can be ruled by the Israel terrorists, and whi has given Israel the power to decide whether or not Palestine can have it's own governmnet. You are a zionist not a marxist.

[TheRedJew]

Yeah, but you deny a normal life for Palestinians. You say they can't have their own government because of groups like hamas, but they can be ruled by the Israel terrorists, and whi has given Israel the power to decide whether or not Palestine can have it's own governmnet. You are a zionist not a marxist.

Tell me where I said it?
Show me where I supported israeli gov?
I an being oppressed by it just like every other man here, there is no diffrence between jews and Arabs.
Just because I don't support Palestine doesnt mean I am zionist.
But maybe I prefer being zionist if people like you are marxisT

[seventeethdecember2016]

Yeah, but you deny a normal life for Palestinians. You say they can't have their own government because of groups like hamas, but they can be ruled by the Israel terrorists, and whi has given Israel the power to decide whether or not Palestine can have it's own governmnet. You are a zionist not a marxist.
I'm sorry, but didn't Israel just promote Palestine for a 100 million dollar loan to the IMF?
Doesn't Israel house over a million Arabs- who are treated as second class citizens in some corners, but it isn't state sponsored?

You're just a charlatan!

Supporting Israeli Self Determination, which I can't stress enough, is not ZIONISM!!!
It is true that Israel used to occupy Palestine, but that was for security purposes. It would have been irrational to let Palestine go without building competent institutions.

Palestine now employs its own security and police forces. It also hunts down terrorists, just like any respectable government would. Gaza, however, should not be equated as Palestinian. While the West Bank is quite peaceful, Gaza has rogue status.

Israel will eventually have to take Hamas out of power and return power to the Palestinian authorities. Until then, peace will be difficult out of Security Dilemmas.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Maybe you should read back some of your posts in all these threads, where you said you don't want Palestine government because they would be fascist. Who are you to decide about a Palestine governent.
This is it, I won't waste time on zionists like you.
Good Night.

[TheRedJew]

Maybe you should read back some of your posts in all these threads, where you said you don't want Palestine government because they would be fascist. Who are you to decide about a Palestine governent.
This is it, I won't waste time on zionists like you.
Good Night.

Fuck you I came here to support Israeli plortarient struggle and instead I am fighting about something that won't chenge anything

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

]


Fuck you I came here to support Israeli plortarient struggle and instead I am fighting about something that won't chenge anything

Then do that, I haven't forced you into argueing with me. If you want to support the Israeli Proletarien struggle please do, I'd even support you. I just disagree with you on your opinion on Palestine, that's all.
Looking back at my previous posts to you, I want to apologize for maybe being a bit too hostile.

[Arlekino]

From my family members telling stories in East Europe relations among the Jews, my auntie worked in the farm for the Jew family only what she got pay slice of bread with some salami and on the Christmas second hand dress, I am not supporter any racial discrimination but she told me Jews were racist as well of course East Europeans done terrible events. On the end should blame capitalism.

[TheRedJew]

From my family members telling stories in East Europe relations among the Jews, my auntie worked in the farm for the Jew family only what she got pay slice of bread with some salami and on the Christmas second hand dress, I am not supporter any racial discrimination but she told me Jews were racist as well of course East Europeans done terrible events. On the end should blame capitalism. I think that capitalist Jews discriminate everyone equally like any other capitalists so they are not racist lol

[Arlekino]

Well most of Jews came from East Europe and I understand why their left there was reasons, but the issues why Palestinias should now suffer, why and why such segreadation on them. If you RedJew as you calling yourself left winger so please try to campgain for equal rights why don't you join Israel communist party they doing good aggitation. There is plenty Jew red website on Krasnoe TV.
http://krasnoetv.org/

[TheRedJew]

I am a member of maki and i were at protests for equell rights but not anymore, things are not as they used to be

[seventeethdecember2016]

There is segregation is Israel? Out of all my visits to Israel, I hadn't noticed. It's news to me.

I had however noticed some people being treated as second class citizens, which is pretty much leveled down to anyone that isn't Ashkenazi. This includes Arabs, but also Sephardics, Mizrahis, Ethiopian Jews, etc. Please know that most of this occurs because of the corruption of Israeli society, not because of state sponsorship.

[TheRedJew]

There is segregation is Israel? Out of all my visits to Israel, I hadn't noticed. It's news to me.

I had however noticed some people being treated as second class citizens, which is pretty much leveled down to anyone that isn't Ashkenazi. This includes Arabs, but also Sephardics, Mizrahis, Ethiopian Jews, etc. Please know that most of this occurs because of the corruption of Israeli society, not because of state sponsorship.

That is not true anymore, mizrahi dominate ashkenazi culturally and ashkanzis are considere "kafot"

[Arlekino]

There is segregation is Israel? Out of all my visits to Israel, I hadn't noticed. It's news to me.

I had however noticed some people being treated as second class citizens, which is pretty much leveled down to anyone that isn't Ashkenazi. This includes Arabs, but also Sephardics, Mizrahis, Ethiopian Jews, etc. Please know that most of this occurs because of the corruption of Israeli society, not because of state sponsorship.

Well fuck the corrupt state we can see what their doing to people, bastards dividing us and force to hate each other. We are not that stupid society we should resist divisions, we should not allow fight among the civil people. So any countries not only Israel we got problems with nationalities, look what done to us East Europeans destruction of Soviet Union, civil wars, clashes. Attacking Russians, or in Russia attacking Uzbeks. Fucking hate like that.

[hatzel]

mizrahi dominate ashkenazi culturally

...what? You hear a bit of Tomer Yosef on the radio and suddenly everything's changed? I know it's kinda off-topic but look here (http://www.jadaliyya.com/pages/index/5566/the-andalus-test_reflections-on-the-attempt-to-pub) and think about the dynamics at play...

[TheRedJew]

...what? You hear a bit of Tomer Yosef on the radio and suddenly everything's changed?

Lol, it was a joke, but you seem to get it

[cynicles]

And remember, ISRAEL HASN'T SEEN A DAY OF PEACE IN ITS ENTIRE HISTORY!!!!
You expect a state formed by a cobination of british imperialism, ethnic cleansings, terrorism and colinialism to enjoy a day of peace? I smell a Hasbara troll!