Treatment of Roma / Gypsies in the "Eastern Block"

[electrostal]

How were Romani ( also known as Gypsies ) treated in the Eastern Block? Does anyone have some personal experiences to share?
I don't know much, I just read that they were being forcibly sterilizated until the 80 in the ČSSR, and never really integrated in the society.
Why didn't the state care more about that minority, why were things like Lunik 9 or Chanov ( google for more info and pictures - these were horrible ghettoes ) allowed to happen?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

From what I gather Chanov was not that awful a place till after the fall. One of the tower blocks in the estate was never even finished because of the events. Generally the situation was in many aspects bad, not only forced sterilisations but also aspects of controlling where they lived and so on; but the employment situation as well as social service thereto offered were also better than they are today.

[hatzel]

It's worth remembering that these kinds of policies were common across Europe, certainly in places like Russia, Hungary and Czechoslovakia, but also westwards, in Sweden - where forced sterilisation of Roma, amongst others, was infamously carried out well into the 70's - in addition to places like Finland and Switzerland - where Roma children were routinely taken from their families to be placed in foster care (all in the name of 'integration' and 'education,' of course). Not to mention the countless other policies implemented throughout this period. I mean I'm the last person who's going to defend those regimes there used to be over there, but I'll certainly defend them from any suggestion that they were extraordinary in this regard.

As such, I don't think the question of why these things were 'allowed to happen' (which sounds awfully passive to my ears; these things weren't allowed to happen, they were made to happen) on 'that' side of the Iron Curtain can be at all separated from the question of why they were allowed to happen on 'this' side. Remembering that I don't exactly feel that this line actually marked any significant ideological divide...

[hatzel]

...oh okay I'll carry on, then...

In addition to your bog-standard racism, anti-Roma sentiment is often intertwined with attacks on itinerancy. In our world of borders and boundaries, an itinerant population can be made to appear more threatening even than a sedentary 'foreign' population; this even applies where Roma are largely sedentary, as they are nevertheless associated with a travelling lifestyle. Whilst this makes anti-Roma rhetoric easier to push down people's throats, it's also of significance to the authorities. In fact a lot of the policies concerning the Roma have involved exactly that, tied up with talk of 'freeing' the Roma from their incessant wandering: children have been taken into foster care so that they might stay in one place throughout their education, families have been forced off of their home sites and into often lacklustre housing, all for their own sake (apparently), because the welfare state is kind-hearted to help these people...

In our society of control - particularly given the discriminatory association of the Roma with criminality, which is certainly a side-issue, but still relevant in this case - I would hope it goes without saying that the state may well have ulterior motives in bringing people who were previously 'off the radar' to some extent right into the system, giving them fixed addresses so that they can be easily located as subjects, and thereafter ruled much more efficiently. This has been a concern for all modern states, and these pressures have been applied to all people. The Roma, however, were unfortunate enough to find themselves filling the role of 'archetypal' resistor to this process, managing to evade 'capture' for far longer than many other groups, and this remains an important factor in ongoing attempts to forcibly sedentarise travelling populations.

This, of course, is only partially applicable to non-travelling Roma, though a certain 'guilt by association' may still play a part...

[Jimmie Higgins]

I went out of the country for the first time last year and saw parts of South-Eastern Europe and was actually amazed by the Roma there. Everything else I saw could more or less be something in the Americas* - many older things than in most of North America obviously, but when I saw tons of Roma I was like, "Wow, I'm in fucking EUROPE!" (which I said really loudly while wearing a lime-green polo shirt, kakhi pants, a hot-pink fanny pack and waving a small american flag made out of silk and hubris).

Anyway I also felt totally ignorant in regards to the role the Roma play in society and was very curious about how they have developed and how the rise of capitalism has impacted them. It almost seemed like they filled the role of migrant labor (like immigrants do in the US) or a kind of surplus manual labor force. If this is accurate, then it would also fit with the kind of oppression and bigotry they receive - and apparently with increasing frequency. Also, if this is accurate, did this role come from being part of an already "traveling" tradition or were they sort of a marginalized culture and caste during feudalism and capitalism transformed their "outsider" caste role into a kind of scapegoated surplus labor group? I really don't know much about it so any decent articles from a left-wing perspective would be appreciated.




*Slight exaggeration - that makes me sound like I was walking around saying "Pfft, the columns at the White House are so much more intact, these things are all broken!". Seriously, I had a fantastic time. It was a trip of a lifetime... because I won't be able to ever afford something like that ever.

[electrostal]

Anyway I also felt totally ignorant in regards to the role the Roma play in society and was very curious about how they have developed and how the rise of capitalism has impacted them. It almost seemed like they filled the role of migrant labor (like immigrants do in the US) or a kind of surplus manual labor force.
The overwhelming majority are unemployed and a singificant number is actually illiterate.

[Engel]

How were Romani ( also known as Gypsies ) treated in the Eastern Block? Does anyone have some personal experiences to share?
I don't know much, I just read that they were being forcibly sterilizated until the 80 in the ČSSR, and never really integrated in the society.
Why didn't the state care more about that minority, why were things like Lunik 9 or Chanov ( google for more info and pictures - these were horrible ghettoes ) allowed to happen?
It was allowed to happen because the Romani all get married to their cousin when their like 15. Their like the Kentuckians of Europe! :laugh: But seriously, it boils down to deep-rooted anti-Romani sentiments by many in Europe.http://zpravy.idnes.cz/cesi-propadaji-anticikanismu-kazdy-druhy-tu-romy-nechce-zjistil-pruzkum-1qx-/domaci.aspx?c=A101209_161615_domaci_js ( In the Czech Republic, 83% of Czechs dislike the Gypsies and 45% favored deporting them from the Czech Republic).

[ВАЛТЕР]

In the Balkans Roma are discriminated against by everyone really. Hell, it is even imbedded in our language. When someone is acting greedy, or dumb, or whatever they are told: "Don't act like a Gypsy." The police discriminate against them, just a few weeks ago I saw a Roma man and his family get pulled over by the cops and the cops were quite obviously enjoying harassing him. It made me sick, and angry at the same time.

The Roma have a hard time progressing in that even if a Roma finished university and was qualified to be a doctor. They would be turned down from most jobs. A few weeks ago a friend of mine started talking about how she hates Roma. I told her: "Roma are born Roma, but she made the decision to be a stupid racist." We haven't hung out since but I don't give a shit.

Other crap I hear is: "Oh they are always stealing shit from me! Those fucking gypsies! I hate them!" To which I respond: "Nobody has ever stolen more from you or your family than a rich white man. I don't see you cursing white people." (That one usually works really well I should add)

[Jimmie Higgins]

The overwhelming majority are unemployed and a singificant number is actually illiterate.I was in Turkey, so it might be a different situation, but it seemed like a lot of the agricultural labor was being done by Roma.

[hatzel]

It was allowed to happen because the Romani all get married to their cousin when their like 15. Their like the Kentuckians of Europe! :laugh: But seriously, it boils down to deep-rooted anti-Romani sentiments by many in Europe

Strange for you to spit out some flagrant anti-Roma sentiment, and then say the problem is people having anti-Roma sentiment...

Fun fact: though the Roma adhere to a wide range of disparate cultures, very few of them would be at all happy marrying their cousin. In fact it's a well established tradition for young men to travel to far-off villages looking for potential partners. This is precisely because if they were to look for a partner nearby - in their own village or neighbouring ones - there is an increased chance (or I could say even risk, and they would certainly consider it so) that they might unwittingly be 3rd cousins or something like that. They go to extreme lengths to minimise the possibility of marrying relatives, which would be considered greatly improper, in fact defiling both parties...and then you come in here, 'herp-a-derp lulzer it be coz they all be inbred haaaaah.' Proper clown you are. Proper.

[electrostal]

Correct but early marriages do exist in their culture.

[Devrim]

I was in Turkey, so it might be a different situation, but it seemed like a lot of the agricultural labor was being done by Roma.

Why did you think they were Roma? I would be very surprised if you could tell the difference between Roma and anybody else in Turkey. Certainly they are not in any way over represented in agricultural labour. In fact quite the opposite.

Devrim

[brigadista]

http://www.errc.org/

European Roma Rights Centre - lots of information on there

[aquaruis15000]

Why are Roma so hated? I never understood. I understand the basis of Jew-hatred (as terrible as it is), but on what grounds are Gypsies hated seemingly everywhere?


Roma children were routinely taken from their families to be placed in foster care (all in the name of 'integration' and 'education,' of course

On what basis? I could see taking children away from parents who belong to a cult that didn't allow them to live real lives or get an education. Not saying Roma do that at all, but I'm saying in general.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Why did you think they were Roma?That's what we'd been told.

[A Marxist Historian]

Correct but early marriages do exist in their culture.

Late marriages are a very recent phenomenon in many cultures.

Thus in Texas, at the time of the Waco massacre under the Clintons, the legal age of marriage was 12. Which is exactly why the Texans wanted to kill 'em all, as the Branch Dravidians were letting the rest of America know what Texas is like.

-M.H.-

[Karabin]

In the Balkans Roma are discriminated against by everyone really. Hell, it is even imbedded in our language. When someone is acting greedy, or dumb, or whatever they are told: "Don't act like a Gypsy." The police discriminate against them, just a few weeks ago I saw a Roma man and his family get pulled over by the cops and the cops were quite obviously enjoying harassing him. It made me sick, and angry at the same time.

The Roma have a hard time progressing in that even if a Roma finished university and was qualified to be a doctor. They would be turned down from most jobs. A few weeks ago a friend of mine started talking about how she hates Roma. I told her: "Roma are born Roma, but she made the decision to be a stupid racist." We haven't hung out since but I don't give a shit.

Other crap I hear is: "Oh they are always stealing shit from me! Those fucking gypsies! I hate them!" To which I respond: "Nobody has ever stolen more from you or your family than a rich white man. I don't see you cursing white people." (That one usually works really well I should add)

Yes, that is definitely true. The Serbo-Croatian word Cigan is used as a derogatory term for other things, much like how the word "gay" is used to describe something you don't like in Western societies. Many a time have I heard somebody call people gypsies or called something gypsy-like to offend them.

There is also a very prominent stereotype that gypsies are lazy and do not want to work. From my experience this stereotype is formed because the Roma actually cant get any decent job due to the prevalent racism directed towards them, not because they are actually lazy. It's really unfortunate how gypsies are treated in the Balkans, but in some places its less prevalent than others (In the town I lived in there was not as much gypsy hate as there is in other places).