As Others See Us

[Conflict]

As a relative newcomer to leftist politics, i asked in my introduction for advice on what to start reading to aid me in learning. I got some very nice replies and i went out and got a copy of 'The Communist Manifesto' which i have almost finished.
A friend of mine called around yesterday and saw it on my desk. He began laughing and saying that Communism was dead and had been a massive failure. He said people wanted freedom and Communism could not provide that. He also said Socialism is a system that could never give people the things they want out of life.
He told me if i was looking for meaning in life, i would be better off turning to god. He has been a good friend to me and has always been dead against racism and homophobia and is a decent guy. What do you all think?

[Peoples' War]

His reaction is the basic knee-jerk of anyone who has no knowledge of the history of the societies which were supposedly socialist, nor of what communism actually is. It's clear he has never even considered reading Marx. He's just one of these people who is going to be too stupid to accept anything you say, or he may check some things out if you ask him questions or suggest reads. Invite him on here, and while he may be restricted, he will be able to try to prove to us that communism is dead.

Ask him to check out the book "Why Marx Was Right" by Terry Eagleton. marxists.org is a good place for reading. He can check out some basic texts such as "Principles of Communism" by Engels, among other works. If he wants an explanation of the Soviet Union, you can suggest Tony Cliff's analysis, or CLR James/Dunayevskaya's analysis of state capitalism.

Just ask him simple questions, or if you want some questions to ask him, let me know and I'll give you some.

[Geiseric]

You can tell him that jesus was a communist and that the catholic church supported fascism... Also ask him if he knows anything about how "unchristian," the capitalist governments have been with their imperialism and destruction of 3rd world nations. And also tell him that god was used to convert pagan tribes to become loyal christian slaves when the roman empire was declining, thus why we have pagan holidays, thus his religeon is a joke that's to be taken as seriously as Jupiter or any other roman mythology, or better yet scientology. Tell him to get out of his religeous "god will fix everything once we're dead," fantasy life and to fix the real world when while we're breathing so our kids won't be killed by say pollution or starvation.

[MarxSchmarx]

Sometimes, you have to take people at their word and wait to jump to conclusions. Assuming people like your friend is "just ignorant" is a bit unfair.

What you should do is prod them - why do they think communism led to a systematic denial of freedom? Do they think that was the goal, when communists rose up against dictators like the Czar or Ngo Diem? Why do they think it deprives people of the good in life? etc...

Aside from the common courtesy you should afford people of respecting their opinions (at least until proven that they have trully contemptible views), very often such questions help people think more carefully about their assumptions. Moreover, when they start questioning themselves, that goes much further than hectoring on a long lecture of history.

Moreover, this will give you crucial insights into how even well-meaning people on the other side think. The sense I get is that a lot of the left at best just doesn't understand how non-leftists, even workers, approach things and at worst is openly contemptuous of motives they impute on others (or they have this variant on the 5-year old's rebuttal "b-b-but you're just STUPID"); the earlier you break from this habit, the more effective you will be at fighting the class struggle.

[Erratus]

Communism promotes slavery and is dead? Clear mark of a guy that doesn't even know what communism is. This is common and really annoying. If you want to have a real conversation with them, you'll first have to explain what communism is, and what it isn't. An then you'll be lucky if they don't just go back to the old arguments because they have no idea how to argue against what communism actually is. I wouldn't fess up to being a communist, especially if you are just reading into it. Too much drama for my tastes. And you can easily to read communist works without being a communist. I mean, come on, it defined the the 20th century. Any curious person should be free to learn about it.

[mew]

in my experience, there's no arguing with these people. they don't understand the basic premise of the debate and no matter how convincing your argument will eventually just say things like "it works on paper, but not in real life."

[Zealot]

As a relative newcomer to leftist politics, i asked in my introduction for advice on what to start reading to aid me in learning. I got some very nice replies and i went out and got a copy of 'The Communist Manifesto' which i have almost finished.
A friend of mine called around yesterday and saw it on my desk. He began laughing and saying that Communism was dead and had been a massive failure. He said people wanted freedom and Communism could not provide that. He also said Socialism is a system that could never give people the things they want out of life.
He told me if i was looking for meaning in life, i would be better off turning to god. He has been a good friend to me and has always been dead against racism and homophobia and is a decent guy. What do you all think?

Turning to god won't solve the world's problems; never has, never will. We need to break down exploitation with our own hands through revolutionary upheaval. Communism is not dead, not at all, and Marx's writings are becoming more relevant today than ever. Just because he's never met a Communist doesn't mean he can disregard the areas of the world where Communism is still the guiding theory of liberation movements. Note that, even if Communism was "dead", Marx and Lenin's critiques of Capitalism are still very much valid. Maybe you could let him read it after you've finished; he might have a change of heart.

[Book O'Dead]

As a relative newcomer to leftist politics, i asked in my introduction for advice on what to start reading to aid me in learning. I got some very nice replies and i went out and got a copy of 'The Communist Manifesto' which i have almost finished.
A friend of mine called around yesterday and saw it on my desk. He began laughing and saying that Communism was dead and had been a massive failure. He said people wanted freedom and Communism could not provide that. He also said Socialism is a system that could never give people the things they want out of life.
He told me if i was looking for meaning in life, i would be better off turning to god. He has been a good friend to me and has always been dead against racism and homophobia and is a decent guy. What do you all think?

Decent guys can be wrong too.

[Red Joe]

Your friend was right about Twentieth Century Communism. As for Twenty-First Century Communism, there isn't anything like it, yet. And you certainly won't find it here. This place is full of archaic-minded assclown wannabes for whom thinking outside the box is heresy. If you're really interested in dynamic leftism, first understand that it is basically dead as an alternative to the bourgeoisie left. It may not remain that way, but nobody in this pathetic playground will be a part of it's revival.

[Blanquist]

Who cares what fools think?

Here's a general rule; pity the fool at times, you might even learn something (not highly likely) but never argue with them.

[Lokomotive293]

Don't try to lecture him on abstract concepts if he doesn't show serious interest. Get active in your school, college or workplace, organize people to fight for immediate goals, if possible, be open about your political views, and eventually, people will start coming to you asking you deeper questions. I've made the experience that that's the way it works.

[TheRedJew]

Tell him why there is no Other way

[Jimmie Higgins]

As a relative newcomer to leftist politics, i asked in my introduction for advice on what to start reading to aid me in learning. I got some very nice replies and i went out and got a copy of 'The Communist Manifesto' which i have almost finished.
A friend of mine called around yesterday and saw it on my desk. He began laughing and saying that Communism was dead and had been a massive failure. He said people wanted freedom and Communism could not provide that. He also said Socialism is a system that could never give people the things they want out of life.
He told me if i was looking for meaning in life, i would be better off turning to god. He has been a good friend to me and has always been dead against racism and homophobia and is a decent guy. What do you all think?

He has the common perceptions that we've all been taught in places like the US. If this was his reaction, then he probably doesn't even see the need to question these ideas that he's heard and so it's doubtful that he could be swayed just through a sort of debate about the philosophy of Marx.

If you do want to try and debate him, it would be better to stick with the things you argee on: he's against racism, then you can talk about that and if you want, push his assumptions from there. Why is racism still around, who wants it maintained, why do the cops act as they do - these are some areas where you might make some traction. But if the debate is "Communism doesn't work, look at the USSR" vs. "Yes it could work, read the Manifesto" then it probably won't go anywhere because you are actually debating weather he should even consider these ideas or not and he's arguing that he doesn't need to, that he's got the proof he needs.

IMO people don't become revolutionaries just because the ideas make sense in the abstract, mostly revolutionary ideas make sense for people who are trying to figure out why the world is like it is and how to change it. If people think things are fine as they are, or more likely, that there are no other realistic alternatives that would be better (or worth the effort) then the best revolutionary arguments can't really make much of a dent.

[Engel]

A friend of mine called around yesterday and saw it on my desk. He began laughing and saying that Communism was dead and had been a massive failure. He said people wanted freedom and Communism could not provide that. He also said Socialism is a system that could never give people the things they want out of life.

It could easily be argued that a communist society has yet to exist and that the so called "communist" states like the USSR, China and East Germany were in fact state capitalist. Just because they claimed to be communist or socialist doesn't mean they were. Libya and the Nazi party both have the word "socialist" in their official names but they are far from being what Marx defined as socialist.

[Geiseric]

they weren't state capitalist, that's a cop out... god damn i hate this discussion. Keep it simple and appeal to his "common sense." ask him about the war and link it to capitalism. ask him about the slave labor that U.S. companies use and link it, again, to capitalism.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Most people don't argue with me about it. The few that did got their asses handed to them. The trick is to go on the offensive immediately and demand they justify the existence of capitalism and such. Any point they make crush it from multiple angles. Also stay on the offensive. In this manner you win every discussion. Don't allow them to overwhelm you with straw-men which is the most common fallacy used by anti-communists. Basically just stay aggressive in any debate.

[Psy]

As a relative newcomer to leftist politics, i asked in my introduction for advice on what to start reading to aid me in learning. I got some very nice replies and i went out and got a copy of 'The Communist Manifesto' which i have almost finished.
A friend of mine called around yesterday and saw it on my desk. He began laughing and saying that Communism was dead and had been a massive failure. He said people wanted freedom and Communism could not provide that. He also said Socialism is a system that could never give people the things they want out of life.
He told me if i was looking for meaning in life, i would be better off turning to god. He has been a good friend to me and has always been dead against racism and homophobia and is a decent guy. What do you all think?
Don't try converting people, don't believe us out of faith go learn more about Marxism sit down and think about it, ask questions about capitalism and the theories of Marx. First satisfy your own skepticism about Marxism before trying to debating capitalists, Marxists are more then willing to debate each other so you can sharpen your debating skills before debating capitalists.

[Sea]

in my experience, there's no arguing with these people. they don't understand the basic premise of the debate and no matter how convincing your argument will eventually just say things like "it works on paper, but not in real life."
Mind you, this was me 10 years ago. To many people, communism is just some abstract evil that isn't worth their time to debate seriously, and they see capitalism and this abstract evil to be their only options. You're not going to awaken people by being cruel to how they see the world. You awaken them by pointing out how things are.


Conflict, just tell your friend the truth. You're reading Marx to get an understanding of his ideas. Considering that those ideas have had such a huge impact on history (applied correctly or not) it behooves you to be familiar with them.