Log in

View Full Version : Che Quevara



Sheep87
15th December 2003, 03:19
This could go under the "Che" section but this has more political relevance. Read at your own risk.

You guys said this was not just a place where radical lefties come togethor and complain but it is for actual discussion. Well read this DO NOT delete it and/or flame it and discuss. I think you can do it.







__________________________________________________ ____________________

Che Guevara's Dubious Legacy

"Hatred is an element of struggle; relentless hatred of the enemy that impels us over and beyond the natural limitations of man and transforms us into effective, violent, selective, and cold killing machines. Our soldiers must be thus; a people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy."

Che Guevara
Message to the Tricontinental
1967

In the United States the generation of the 1960's spoke often about love and peace, yet this generation carried the image of a man who advocated the use of hatred as a means to an end into their marches and into their dormitories. The image of Che Guevara hanging in the College dorms of young student radicals in the 90's may be cliche, but his message is not. In his Message to the Tricontinental Guevara argued that hatred was something to be harnessed and used for as he put it, "an element of struggle." Not only as an element to struggle against injustice, but to be used to perpetrate new injustices. Guevara describes the utilization of hatred or as he put it "relentless hatred" to "impel us over and beyond the natural limitations of man." This use of hatred to encourage the dehumanization of ones enemy is but another manifestation of the doctrine found throughout the centuries to justify mass murder and torture.
If hate was the solution to all our problems than the victors of this century would have been men like: Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. Instead they are viewed in most quarters as mass murderers and criminals except for those who are blinded by their "relentless hatred" of their fellow man. History has demonstrated two fundamental approaches to change the face of the world. One way views hatred as an element of the struggle and has been the way for such leaders as: Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Fidel Castro.

The second way is an alternative to harnessing hatred, and tragically it is the road less traveled. It is the path blazed with the words of Jesus Christ who said, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." This path has and continues to be followed by men of such diverse backgrounds as Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., Lech Walesa, and Vaclav Havel. These men have demonstrated that hatred is something to be overcome, not an "element of struggle," but rather a stumbling block to freedom.

Ours is a battle both of the soul and the material realm. Our enemy is hatred. We have good reason to hate Fidel Castro and his co-conspirators. They have imprisoned tens of thousands of prisoners of conscience, attempted to brainwash a generation, enslaved the Cuban people in a retro-feudal state Castroism created, they have divided families, made political ideology a litmus test for patriotism, created an exile that comprises nearly 20% of the Cuban population,and murdered thousands.

To defeat despotism, we must conquer and destroy our own hatred. We must reject Che Guevara's argument that hatred is good because it, "transforms us into effective, violent, selective, and cold killing machines." We must act not out of hatred for Castro,but out of love for the Cuban people. This should be what drives our purpose and our strategies to bring liberty and justice to the Cuban nation. We will not compromise with evil. We will overcome it. We will exercise our fundamental rights as Cubans and as human beings to be free and moral beings. If they wish to butcher us or imprison us, then it is they who are at fault. If we are to die for the cause of freedom while exercising our God given rights, then we have done nothing wrong.

On July 13, 1994 Castro's agents attacked a tug-boat full of women and children trying to head for sanctuary in a foreign land. They were met by tugs who used high pressure hoses to knock these refugees overboard into the sea, and later these agents rammed the boat drowning 41 passengers. 21 of which were women and children.

One year later on July 13, 1995 Cuban exiles traveled in a flotilla into Cuban waters to honor those who had been massacred a year earlier seeking freedom. We were met by military gunboats, military helicopters, and military jets. We came bearing white roses and a priest to pray over the watery grave of the victims. As we exercised our fundamental right to enter and exit our national territory, the lead ship, Democracia, was rammed, and exiles seriously injured. The exile's response to the military personnel was "brothers, please don't do this."

On October 10, 1995 the Cuban Council "Concilio Cubano" was born, a coalition of civic, political, labor, and human rights organizations joined together in the rebirth of Cuba's civil and moral society. 130 opposition groups joined together on the following mutual points of agreement: respect for human rights, amnesty for all political prisoners, and the re-establishment of the rule of for all Cubans inside and outside of Cuba. The Cuban Council requested permission to hold a national convention on Feb. 24, 1996. Castro could not allow such a coalition to exist because it is a mortal threat to him. This Council looks to the future of the Cuban nation, and charts a course away from the culture of hatred, death, and disaster Castro has brought to the island.

On February 24, 1996 when Concilio Cubano was to meet; Cuba's secret police continued the sweep started weeks earlier to crush the coalition, and Cuban MiGs killed four men who at the time were engaged in a search and rescue mission for Cuban rafters in the Florida Straits. One of these men, Armando Alejandre Jr. was a member of the Committee in support of the Cuban Council in Miami. He was also a 1988 graduate of Florida International University.

How has the exile responded to these outrages: with prayer, sadness for those who have lost loved ones, a renewed call to non-violent confrontation, and finally with another flotilla to honor those who perished at the hands of a tyranny driven by hate.

Che's legacy in Cuba is one neighbor spying on another, high suicide rates, and a generation of young Cubans risking their lives on rafts in the Florida Straits rather than continue to live under a despotic government. A people cannot prosper in a regime founded and based in hatred. We must transcend hate, and we must overcome evil for Cuba to be free.

gawkygeek
15th December 2003, 03:36
who wrote the article? id like to know to see their credibilty, and che was right, hatred has always been the most powerful motivator for men, it took only hatred of one race to march forward and conquer nearly all of europe, it wasn't the failure of the driving hate that lead germany to failure it was the over extension of an army. the german army was destroyed by the US forces who were trained to hate the krauts, jerries and any other name that i just can't think of right now, and that was even before we knew what the germans were doing to the jewish ppl.
all the leaders listed that protested the use of hate were not leaders that believed in a struggle or a revolution, they believed in change a slow non-radical evolution of ideas thru reason. the american revolution was lead won only by the colonists intense hatred of the british oppressors the lowly red coats, lobsterbacks, no war can be won without breeding hate, there is no way to have a man kill another efficiently without the element of hate being tightly woven into the ideals. it is bread in the heart and comes out the rifle, the sword the tools of destruction are useless without the power of hate that drives them.

just a side note this probably would have fit best in oposing ideologies but it'll do fine here i guess

SgtPepper369
15th December 2003, 03:53
"We must act not out of hatred for Castro,but out of love for the Cuban people."

Exactly, but sadly it is not the case. Sure by this war we "liberate" Iraq. But Bush acted out of hatred for Saddam (and some may argue oil). The only reason the right wing citizens of america really gave a damn about "freeing Iraqi people" was because they hated Saddam. (and also Iraqi people I wonder how that works out.) Some people used 9-11 as a reason for war, even thoght we've been told that Iraq had nothing to do with it. Oh wait... Sadam "allegedly" has ties to Bin Laden, ohh. Theres our reason. It's still hatred... not freedom. Basically this war is hate, all war is powered by hate, wether or not it is for a race of people or an individual. War=Hate.

(I hope that made sense...)

Hawker
15th December 2003, 03:54
Okay nothing is perfect okay,not even Che,I mean I would love nothing than to help people too,but some I would have to kill at a mass,Castro isn't perfect as you can tell,sure he has political prisoners but the US has also so what's the difference between the two countries,one is called a "Dictatorship" by the US,the other is called a "Monster" by Cuba.

The four men that were shot down by Cuban MiG's were probably Cuban terrorists about to make another bombing run over Cuba,so basically the MiG's were making a recon and instictivlly they had to shoot it down for the good of Cuba.

Don't preach the scriptures to us because most of us don't want to listen,the scriptures teaches good will towards other men,but so do other religions,in the eye's of communism,religion is poison,the only real religion that suits communism is buddhism because it is not required to worship a god nor any gods for that matter,only to find peace within yourself.

One of the only thing that keeps us alive throughout our entire life is hate,so hate is good,yet also bad,but it is a natural instinct that we can never get rid of that causes us,to create death and destruction,hate is what fuels people just like when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor it caused hate throughout America and that hate fueld nationalism which lead to the eventuall defeat of Japan,but we have many way's of controlling hate,love for example.If you have love in your heart and hate in your mind,you balance that and you have hate and love therefore you will have less hate then before,which then makes you capable of kindness,so attrocities you commit won't at a mass.

Sheep87
15th December 2003, 03:54
John Suarez

Lardlad95
15th December 2003, 04:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2003, 04:19 AM
This could go under the "Che" section but this has more political relevance. Read at your own risk.

You guys said this was not just a place where radical lefties come togethor and complain but it is for actual discussion. Well read this DO NOT delete it and/or flame it and discuss. I think you can do it.







__________________________________________________ ____________________

Che Guevara's Dubious Legacy

"Hatred is an element of struggle; relentless hatred of the enemy that impels us over and beyond the natural limitations of man and transforms us into effective, violent, selective, and cold killing machines. Our soldiers must be thus; a people without hatred cannot vanquish a brutal enemy."

Che Guevara
Message to the Tricontinental
1967

In the United States the generation of the 1960's spoke often about love and peace, yet this generation carried the image of a man who advocated the use of hatred as a means to an end into their marches and into their dormitories. The image of Che Guevara hanging in the College dorms of young student radicals in the 90's may be cliche, but his message is not. In his Message to the Tricontinental Guevara argued that hatred was something to be harnessed and used for as he put it, "an element of struggle." Not only as an element to struggle against injustice, but to be used to perpetrate new injustices. Guevara describes the utilization of hatred or as he put it "relentless hatred" to "impel us over and beyond the natural limitations of man." This use of hatred to encourage the dehumanization of ones enemy is but another manifestation of the doctrine found throughout the centuries to justify mass murder and torture.
If hate was the solution to all our problems than the victors of this century would have been men like: Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. Instead they are viewed in most quarters as mass murderers and criminals except for those who are blinded by their "relentless hatred" of their fellow man. History has demonstrated two fundamental approaches to change the face of the world. One way views hatred as an element of the struggle and has been the way for such leaders as: Lenin, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and Fidel Castro.

The second way is an alternative to harnessing hatred, and tragically it is the road less traveled. It is the path blazed with the words of Jesus Christ who said, "Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you." This path has and continues to be followed by men of such diverse backgrounds as Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., Lech Walesa, and Vaclav Havel. These men have demonstrated that hatred is something to be overcome, not an "element of struggle," but rather a stumbling block to freedom.

Ours is a battle both of the soul and the material realm. Our enemy is hatred. We have good reason to hate Fidel Castro and his co-conspirators. They have imprisoned tens of thousands of prisoners of conscience, attempted to brainwash a generation, enslaved the Cuban people in a retro-feudal state Castroism created, they have divided families, made political ideology a litmus test for patriotism, created an exile that comprises nearly 20% of the Cuban population,and murdered thousands.

To defeat despotism, we must conquer and destroy our own hatred. We must reject Che Guevara's argument that hatred is good because it, "transforms us into effective, violent, selective, and cold killing machines." We must act not out of hatred for Castro,but out of love for the Cuban people. This should be what drives our purpose and our strategies to bring liberty and justice to the Cuban nation. We will not compromise with evil. We will overcome it. We will exercise our fundamental rights as Cubans and as human beings to be free and moral beings. If they wish to butcher us or imprison us, then it is they who are at fault. If we are to die for the cause of freedom while exercising our God given rights, then we have done nothing wrong.

On July 13, 1994 Castro's agents attacked a tug-boat full of women and children trying to head for sanctuary in a foreign land. They were met by tugs who used high pressure hoses to knock these refugees overboard into the sea, and later these agents rammed the boat drowning 41 passengers. 21 of which were women and children.

One year later on July 13, 1995 Cuban exiles traveled in a flotilla into Cuban waters to honor those who had been massacred a year earlier seeking freedom. We were met by military gunboats, military helicopters, and military jets. We came bearing white roses and a priest to pray over the watery grave of the victims. As we exercised our fundamental right to enter and exit our national territory, the lead ship, Democracia, was rammed, and exiles seriously injured. The exile's response to the military personnel was "brothers, please don't do this."

On October 10, 1995 the Cuban Council "Concilio Cubano" was born, a coalition of civic, political, labor, and human rights organizations joined together in the rebirth of Cuba's civil and moral society. 130 opposition groups joined together on the following mutual points of agreement: respect for human rights, amnesty for all political prisoners, and the re-establishment of the rule of for all Cubans inside and outside of Cuba. The Cuban Council requested permission to hold a national convention on Feb. 24, 1996. Castro could not allow such a coalition to exist because it is a mortal threat to him. This Council looks to the future of the Cuban nation, and charts a course away from the culture of hatred, death, and disaster Castro has brought to the island.

On February 24, 1996 when Concilio Cubano was to meet; Cuba's secret police continued the sweep started weeks earlier to crush the coalition, and Cuban MiGs killed four men who at the time were engaged in a search and rescue mission for Cuban rafters in the Florida Straits. One of these men, Armando Alejandre Jr. was a member of the Committee in support of the Cuban Council in Miami. He was also a 1988 graduate of Florida International University.

How has the exile responded to these outrages: with prayer, sadness for those who have lost loved ones, a renewed call to non-violent confrontation, and finally with another flotilla to honor those who perished at the hands of a tyranny driven by hate.

Che's legacy in Cuba is one neighbor spying on another, high suicide rates, and a generation of young Cubans risking their lives on rafts in the Florida Straits rather than continue to live under a despotic government. A people cannot prosper in a regime founded and based in hatred. We must transcend hate, and we must overcome evil for Cuba to be free.
For the record you aren't gonna get anywhere with this...I'm serious, you wont convince anyone of anything.

First of all this article is obviously written by a biased source. And a biased source anti-castro or pro-castro isn't going to help you win ove anyone of anything.

Second everyone here has read just as many statements that are pro-castro so one article isn't going to make us change our view of che.

Finally you can find information on someone who hates any country. I'd gladly give you a statement about the crap that goes down in the US if you want one. You only need to find a cuban defector in Miami (who most likely was from a wealthy family in Cuba) and bam you have your statement.

I'm saying this only to note the futility in posting this, as in posting anything anywhere on this forum. If I were you I'd come here to dicuss theory (like I mostly do) because empirical evidence is so often skewed from all sides that it becomes irrelevant.

Regicidal Insomniac
15th December 2003, 04:55
What's wrong with hating injustice, inequality, opression, and slavery? That is all Comrade Guevara is advocating. And remember, he's the same man who said a true revolutionary is motivated by love. Both emotions play an equal part is sustaining one in a struggle.

This entire article is based on one quote used out of context. Therefore, it's not even worth reading. I'd advise against anyone wasting their time to dig through this garbage in the fruitless search for any substance. It's a nice try to discredit Che, but it's really laughably written.

ComradeRobertRiley
15th December 2003, 19:49
Why is this forum called che Quevara?? shouldnt it be che Guevara?

The Feral Underclass
15th December 2003, 20:03
The statements was in relation to imperialists and the ruling class...They are a brutel enemy and shoult be hated...the problem with you protestwarrior type is you keep making the wrong points. you have such a lack of undertsanding for radical left wing theory that your just playing into our hands. You dont know anything about communist theory so your making assumptions based on ignorance...your a fool. Stop pretending you know what any of us stand for.

cubist
15th December 2003, 20:05
the all loving christian god ordered the rape of davids mistress in one of the books of the bible but christians don't complain,

CASTRO_SUCKS
15th December 2003, 22:51
Originally posted by Hawker+Dec 15 2003, 04:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hawker @ Dec 15 2003, 04:54 AM)The four men that were shot down by Cuban MiG&#39;s were probably Cuban terrorists about to make another bombing run over Cuba,so basically the MiG&#39;s were making a recon and instictivlly they had to shoot it down for the good of Cuba.[/b]
COERRECTION...See this is why I feel the need to correct those that confuse fact with fiction. Radars (both U.S. AND cuban) show that the UNARMED cessnas (in case none of you know what a cessna is, picture a tiny model-airplane with an engine) were OUTBOUND and in INTERNATIONAL WATERS, when they were both "courageously" DESTROYED by the "brave" and "heroic" cuban mig pilots&#33; Hooray for castro and the "brave" pilots who risked life and limb in their supersonic well-armed jets against the aluminum, single prop, slow ass, unarmed planes.



[email protected] 15 2003, 04:54 AM
Don&#39;t preach the scriptures to us because most of us don&#39;t want to listen,...
Yeah...they don&#39;t want to be encumbered with FACTS man&#33;

Socialsmo o Muerte
16th December 2003, 19:16
Firstly, as someone has pointed out, this is clearly from a biased source. But let&#39;s not just use that as an argument.

Anyone who follows Che will fully support the quoted statment, because it is completely true. People need hatred. However, the write says:

"If hate was the solution to all our problems than the victors of this century would have been men like: Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot. Instead they are viewed in most quarters as mass murderers and criminals"

That is a poor argument. Che&#39;s promotion of hatred was hatred for the enemy. Those mentioned above hated people blindly. Their hatred was not justified and was incontrollable. Also innaccurate is the suggestion that Mussolini was a mass murderer. But that&#39;s besides the point.

Che was saying we should hate a "brutal enemy". And we should. It all depends on how justified we are to label one group a "brutal enemy". Enemies of freedom should be hated and vanquished.

Anarchist Freedom
16th December 2003, 21:50
did you know that when you got drafted to join the military in WW2 in america they would show you a video, saying hate the gook,german,jew and alot of others.

hatred has always played a key part in war its there so we can have something to have ambition like i hate george bush soo its motivation to get rid of him.

hatred is a gift my friend

you think that when a country go to war they do it out of love fuck no if they did we would be walking around with sticks and leather armor. basically im saying that without hatred there wouldnt be somethings in this world alot people hate hell everyone hates even che me you the president of america its just that way.


:che: