let's talk about minimum wage legislation

[ed miliband]

my friend points to it as an example of how the labour party are different to the tories, although the minimum wage is now broadly supported in conservative circles.

it's introduction interests me though, because it wasn't labour party policy until after the lp had killed off any pretence of being a social-democratic party, and indeed, in "social-democratic" countries like sweden (very debatable, of course) there is no national minimum wage.

when you look at the wikipedia page on the 'minimum wage' the article is part of a series on organised labour, and yet there seem to be no great strikes for a minimum wage, no great organising (correct me if i'm wrong); rather the minimum wage seems to be something brought in from above by bourgeois politicians and bureacrats.

now from a working class perspective the minimum wage is better than nothing, don't get me wrong, but there also must be benefits from a bourgeois perspective, which is what interests me.

so what is the social role of the minimum wage?

[shinjuku dori]

Minimum wage wants to be abolished by right wing of America now. I read in newspaper recently this "Bachman" possible president was suggest to remove it. I can't imagine,

[Book O'Dead]

Every wage is a minimum wage.

And Marx admonished us to replace on our banners the slogan "A Fair Days Wage for a Fair Day's Work" with "The Abolition of the Wages System!"

[ed miliband]

Every wage is a minimum wage.

And Marx admonished us to replace on our banners the slogan "A Fair Days Wage for a Fair Day's Work" with "The Abolition of the Wages System!"

very helpful.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Minimum wage wants to be abolished by right wing of America now. I read in newspaper recently this "Bachman" possible president was suggest to remove it. I can't imagine,

Well, Bachman isn't a candidate anymore, so yeah...

[Brosa Luxemburg]

when you look at the wikipedia page on the 'minimum wage' the article is part of a series on organised labour, and yet there seem to be no great strikes for a minimum wage, no great organising (correct me if i'm wrong); rather the minimum wage seems to be something brought in from above by bourgeois politicians and bureacrats.

Well, this is a flawed assessment. There have been, at least in American history, some very big strikes and working class actions for a minimum wage. I mean, it did technically come "from above" through Roosevelt's New Deal, but this was after pressure from the workers. Of course, there was also the fact that if the workers were paid more, they could buy more things which could stabilize the economy and pull it out of depression at the time.


now from a working class perspective the minimum wage is better than nothing, don't get me wrong, but there also must be benefits from a bourgeois perspective, which is what interests me.

It really depends. It gives the working class a false sense of security (that they aren't being exploited). Like another user said, there have been moves recently in the US to get rid of the minimum wage (while, also, minimum wage has been raised). It really depends upon how well organized labor is, how strong the economy is, etc.


so what is the social role of the minimum wage?

As a minimum wage worker, I would say to provide a false sense of security, but I could be wrong on that.

For the history of organized labor, the minimum wage, etc. in America, I would check these out.

http://www.haymarketbooks.org/pb/The-Lean-Years
http://www.haymarketbooks.org/pb/The-Turbulent-Years

[bricolage]

Well, this is a flawed assessment. There have been, at least in American history, some very big strikes and working class actions for a minimum wage. I mean, it did technically come "from above" through Roosevelt's New Deal, but this was after pressure from the workers. Of course, there was also the fact that if the workers were paid more, they could buy more things which could stabilize the economy and pull it out of depression at the time.
this is true but I think the OP was talking about the UK where it is a different scenario. I think it's an interesting question because the usual left response of ‘give them social reform or you get social revolt’ doesn’t really fit here at all. when the bill was passed strikes were at an all time low, there was little else in terms of social revolt and the labour party had enormous support in parliament and in elections. whilst trade unions had long been arguing for it and some (I think unison) at the time complained the bill didn’t go far enough they hadn’t organised any campaigns around it and all the action (if there was any) had been through boardroom talks and the like. I suppose it is theoretically possible that unions leaders had been so persuasive that they had managed to get blair around to the idea, and while it is likely internal pressure had some effect it seems every unlikely that it was the sole driving force behind the whole thing. in addition the country wasn't in a depression and the economy was doing quite well. it's still true though that in terms of extra spending it can translate to extra growth so I'm guessing that was some kind of impetus behind it.

[shinjuku dori]

bricolage: you are mistaken. They made this minimum to balance competition. Company which had some kind of agreement with wage don't want to compete with kind of grey company that is paying worker almost nothing. How could they compete?

It's kind of same reason the legal bourgeoisie want to have the grey bourgeoisie in jail (like organized crime or drug seller), or the immigrant worker kicked out.

If they have to pay worker something. They want all to pay that.

[Blake's Baby]

Also, it allows some wages to be reduced. There were, according to reports at the time, many workers (for instance in catering and hospitality) that found their wages going down when the UK minimum wage was introduced.

[bricolage]

there were some, but in general wages rose. I mean farm workers in cornwall saw something like a 25% increase or something ridiculous like that. I think it's misleading to put too much emphasis on that as it seems to suggest the minimum wage was intended to drive down average wages which I don't think it was.

[Ocean Seal]

It seems interesting that Sweden doesn't have a minimum wage. But perhaps the minimum wage is based on class conflicts that started quite a ways earlier at a time when the minimum wage guaranteed workers quite a big improvement from a time without one.

[Raúl Duke]

Minimum wage wants to be abolished by right wing of America now. I read in newspaper recently this "Bachman" possible president was suggest to remove it. I can't imagine.
Well, Bachman isn't a candidate anymore, so yeah... That doesn't exactly mean it wasn't a significant event in US politics that Bachmann (and perhaps Cain, maybe even Ron Paul!) wants to get rid of the min wage and that Gringich wants youth labor (even some states already did actually take away restriction of youth labor) and be floated around by the media as a "reasonable thing" to consider.

Things have definitely changed and the US has been moving more to the right on economic matters in the political arena and the media wants the public perception to trail along (it didn't succeed in making the whole "get rid of the minimum wage" idea popular but probably has succeeded in other thing) that direction as well. In the 90s and before suggesting the things Bachman, et.al would have seen completely crazy and fringe and would probably get no air-time or be allowed in the primaries.

[Comrade Trollface]

Early in her career, Emma Goldman conducted a speaking tour expounding Johann Most's position against the reformist 8-hour day movement. But then-

A man in the front row who had attracted my attention by his white hair and lean, haggard face rose to speak. He said that he understood my impatience with such small demands as a few hours less a day, or a few dollars more a week. It was legitimate for young people to take time lightly. But what were men of his age to do? They were not likely to live to see the ultimate overthrow of the capitalist system. Were they also to forgo the release of perhaps two hours a day from the hated work? That was all they could hope to see realized in their lifetime. Should they deny themselves even that small achievement? Should they never have a little more time for reading or being out in the open? Why not be fair to people chained to the block?

The man’s earnestness, his clear analysis of the principle involved in the eight-hour struggle, brought home to me the falsity of Most’s position.

This is more or less my position on little reforms that make the lives of workers more livable under capitalism. If bettering the lives of our fellow workers isn't an end in itself, then why pray tell are we even socialists?

[ed miliband]

Early in her career, Emma Goldman conducted a speaking tour expounding Johann Most's position against the reformist 8-hour day movement. But then-

A man in the front row who had attracted my attention by his white hair and lean, haggard face rose to speak. He said that he understood my impatience with such small demands as a few hours less a day, or a few dollars more a week. It was legitimate for young people to take time lightly. But what were men of his age to do? They were not likely to live to see the ultimate overthrow of the capitalist system. Were they also to forgo the release of perhaps two hours a day from the hated work? That was all they could hope to see realized in their lifetime. Should they deny themselves even that small achievement? Should they never have a little more time for reading or being out in the open? Why not be fair to people chained to the block?

The man’s earnestness, his clear analysis of the principle involved in the eight-hour struggle, brought home to me the falsity of Most’s position.

This is more or less my position on little reforms that make the lives of workers more livable under capitalism. If bettering the lives of our fellow workers isn't an end in itself, then why pray tell are we even socialists?

kneejerk leftism

yes, a minimum wage is better than workers getting £1 an hour or whatever, but it certainly isn't sacred, and at least in the uk it bears very little resemblance to the reforms goldman is speaking of

[Comrade Trollface]

kneejerk leftism

yes, a minimum wage is better than workers getting £1 an hour or whatever, but it certainly isn't sacred, and at least in the uk it bears very little resemblance to the reforms goldman is speaking ofThen you obviously have no fucking idea what a couple of more bucks an hour means for an American making minimum wage. Trying to eke out a living on the current MW in the US often means working multiple jobs that come together to a great deal more than 40 hours a week. For one thing, a higher minimum wage will bring many workers closer to a 40 hour week. The struggle to raise MW in the US is a worthwhile struggle for workers.

But if MW were abolished altogether, I hate to imagine what would happen to workers making MW in the US today.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

The typical response I hear whenever the issue of raising the minimum wage comes up like it did a few years ago is that prices will just increase to compensate which makes things worse for everyone. Obviously this kind of sentiment is white collar workers looking out for for themselves but is there anything that shows this actually happening?

[ed miliband]

Then you obviously have no fucking idea what a couple of more bucks an hour means for an American making minimum wage. Trying to eke out a living on the current MW in the US often means working multiple jobs that come together to a great deal more than 40 hours a week. For one thing, a higher minimum wage will bring many workers closer to a 40 hour week. The struggle to raise MW in the US is a worthwhile struggle for workers.

But if MW were abolished altogether, I hate to imagine what would happen to workers making MW in the US today.

where the fuck do you see me arguing for the abolition of the minimum wage? jesus christ. as i said: kneejerk leftism. and quit the moralising.

my point is very clear: there are few arguments against the minimum wage from a working class perspective. what are the arguments for a minimum wage from a ruling class perspective. because there are clearly some, as others above have attempted to outline. you just quoted emma goldman out of context and scolded me for something i haven't done, and then got all emotive.

e: like seriously, what was that about? cos i said the minimum wage isn't sacred?

[Comrade Trollface]

where the fuck do you see me arguing for the abolition of the minimum wage? jesus christ. as i said: kneejerk leftism. and quit the moralising.Kneejerk leftism? Moralising? You're speaking in riddles, sir! Please explain. I know that this may seem outlandish for you Brits, but there is a growing tendency within the US ruling class that would do just that. And I'm not sure that what is left of organized labor here would have the clout to stop it.
what are the arguments for a minimum wage from a ruling class perspective. 1) A full stomach makes a content wage slave.
2) Higher wages drive consumption, consumption drives economic growth.


you just quoted emma goldman out of contextOut of context? How so?
scolded me for something i haven't done,Where have i scolded you, sir? My first post was largely in response to the gentleman who quoted Marx. I apologize for any misunderstanding.

[Tim Finnegan]

I think it's an interesting point that minimum wage was introduced in the UK at a time when strikes were at very low level. Speculating, it seems that it might have been introduced to keep it that way, not simply as a way of limiting working class struggle (as the concessions of the post-war era), but of actively pre-empting it by undermining one of the key points around which industrial struggles can be built. This would be particularly true if the ruling party is able to present these policies as an externalisation of such struggles, allowing them to maintain their image as class-mediators in an era in which this becomes an increasingly absurd pretence.

[Tim Finnegan]

Additionally, is it possible that the spread of minimum wages is related to the increase in direct forms of value-extraction such as rent, debt, intellectual property, etc? That a certain level of income (which is not to say real spending power) has become necessary for capital to reproduce itself?

[Die Neue Zeit]

Additionally, is it possible that the spread of minimum wages is related to the increase in direct forms of value-extraction such as rent, debt, intellectual property, etc? That a certain level of income (which is not to say real spending power) has become necessary for capital to reproduce itself?

To relate this politically, only the French Workers Party called for a minimum wage in its economic minimum program, unlike its Second International contemporaries.

[ed miliband]

Out of context? How so?Where have i scolded you, sir? My first post was largely in response to the gentleman who quoted Marx. I apologize for any misunderstanding.


misunderstanding then, nevermind.