Why do anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-communism have the same exact flag?

[Skyhilist]

This is probably a pretty stupid question, but this is something I've always wondered. I mean anarcho-syndicalism and anarcho-communism aren't necessarily the same, so why would they have the exact same red and black flag to represent them? There probably is an obvious answer, so sorry in advance if this question comes off as pretty basic and obvious.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Probably because they are in the same tradition... at least that is my guess.

[Raúl Duke]

I wouldn't know exactly...but I feel it's because both are the more "socialistic" strands of anarchism.

[Book O'Dead]

The working class has no flag because it has no country.

[Comrade Trollface]

Because its so nice that we used it twice. But anyway Book- it isn't the flag of either a class or a country, but of a tendency. 2 tendencies even! Hope that clears that up!

[Zav]

Anarcho-Communism is a strategy for reaching Anarchy/Communism, and Anarcho-Syndicalism is a tactic used to get there and a method of labor organization. They have the same flag because it was originally the flag of the CNT-FAI, which created Anarchist Communism largely via Anarcho-Syndicalism.

[Ostrinski]

Syndicalism is merely an organizational method used by certain adherents to the anarchist tradition.

[Book O'Dead]

Flags are fetishism.

[Comrade Trollface]

Don't knock fetishism till you've tried it.

[Zav]

Flags are fetishism.
No. They are symbols. People may fetishize them, but they are not inherently a fetish (unless you are vexillosexual, lol).

[Book O'Dead]

No. They are symbols. People may fetishize them, but they are not inherently a fetish (unless you are vexillosexual, lol).

I know what they are and how they're used. Purely fetishistic.

[Zav]

I know what they are and how they're used. Purely fetishistic.
No. A symbol representing an ideology or nation is not necessarily fetishistic.

[Comrade Trollface]

I know what they are and how they're used. Purely fetishistic.What is particularly fetishistic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk) about an object that helps you find your mates at a march?:confused:

[Skyhilist]

Even this thread is causing an argument...? Anyways thanks for the help with the CNT-FAI info on the creation of the flag.

[Comrade Trollface]

Anyone know what Book o'Dead's story is?

[Zav]

Anyone know what Book o'Dead's story is?
Besides being a closet Reactionary?
I've been arguing with him all day (some life we have) as you've seen, mostly on the latest circumcision thread, and what I've gathered is that he is a religious fundamentalist who doesn't understand/ignores/disagrees with the concept of human rights and is fond of circular logic. He's probably trolling.


Even this thread is causing an argument...? Anyways thanks for the help with the CNT-FAI info on the creation of the flag.
You're welcome, and sorry about the arguing. Book O Dead is my nemesis of the week. The thread were were arguing on earlier was closed, so now ze's 'arguing' with me here.

[Book O'Dead]

Besides being a closet Reactionary?
I've been arguing with him all day (some life we have) as you've seen, mostly on the latest circumcision thread, and what I've gathered is that he is a religious fundamentalist who doesn't understand/ignores/disagrees with the concept of human rights and is fond of circular logic. He's probably trolling.

If you read all my posts, including my intro, you'll see that I'm a very nice guy with a remarkable sense of humor, two spaniels and a parakeet that says "Riiiiiing!" every time my phone rings.

I love BBQ's and Heineken beer and will take in a movie every now and then.

My favorite color is red.

[Comrade Trollface]

He (pronoun preference is the only thing in his profile, strangely enough) seems to also be perfectly humorless. You think that's an act too? If so then it seems like a pretty unrewarding way to troll. I mean its all about teh lulz, amirite?

[Zav]

If you read all my posts, including my intro, you'll see that I'm a very nice guy with a remarkable sense of humor, two spaniels and a parakeet that says "Riiiiiing!" every time my phone rings.

I love BBQ's and Heineken beer and will take in a movie every now and then.

My favorite color is red.
You are capable of being all that we both have mentioned at the same time. Your post counters nothing, as per usual.


He (pronoun preference is the only thing in his profile, strangely enough) seems to also be perfectly humorless. You think that's an act too? If so then it seems like a pretty unrewarding way to troll. I mean its all about teh lulz, amirite?
I don't know about that. Some people just don't express a sense of humor very much. Perhaps every sentence is sarcastic. I'm not exactly hard to troll; I feed them like pidgeons. I find there are more lulz to be had in the OI section than in trolling, but to each his own, I suppose.

[Blake's Baby]

Right.

The red-and-black flag is an Anarcho-Syndicalist flag, as others have said, (probably) first used by the CNT.

I'd hold that the flag of Anarchist Communism is the black flag. In the 20 years I was an Anarchist Communist, it never occurred to me to march under a black-and-red flag. An anarchist black flag, yes. Even a red flag, symbolising the Paris Commune, Haymarket Martyrs and the workers' movement in general. But not a specific Anarcho-Syndicalist flag, as I wasn't an Anarcho-Syndicalist. I had a black star badge too, not a red-and-black one, because I wasn't an Anarcho-Syndicalist.

And I don't believe that Anarcho-Syndicalism is a 'tactic'. This was something of a slur on the Anarcho-Syndicalists perpetrated by Arshinov and the drafters of the Platform in 1926 (one of the things they got wrong in my opinion).

If you ask Anarcho-Syndicalists, most believe in Anarcho-Syndicalism not Anarchist Communism. They are different (though obviously related) traditions in the wider Anarchist movement.

[hatzel]

Book O Dead is my nemesis of the week.

Then why don't you just be the bigger man, rather than both just being massive babies for the rest of your lives, 'waaaaah, I'm arguing with you, waaaaah, I'm gonna call you names, waaaaah.' Flugging heck, grow up and let people have threads that aren't about you...

[bricolage]

following on from what blake's baby said. the 'anarchist flag' was initially a red one, the same as other forms of communism. after the split in the first international and the formation of two separate movements the anarchists started to adopt the black one as a means of differentiating themselves. however louise michel also talks in her memoirs about not using the red flag after the massacres in the crushing of the paris commune:

We carried the black flag because the demonstration was to be absolutely peaceful, and the black flag is the flag of strikes and the flag of those that are hungry. Could we have carried any other flag? The red flag is nailed up in the cemeteries, and we should take it only when we can protect it. Well, we couldn't do that. I have told before and now I repeat: it was an essentially peaceful demonstration.
the red and black flag came later, I dunno if it was from the spanish revolution as said above but that seems as likely as anything.

[Sasha]

If you read all my posts, including my intro, you'll see that I'm a very nice guy with a remarkable sense of humor, two spaniels and a parakeet that says "Riiiiiing!" every time my phone rings.

I love BBQ's and Heineken beer and will take in a movie every now and then.

My favorite color is red.

Heineken is def reactionairy...:D

[shinjuku dori]

My coworker been around long time. He said to me during anti-Nuke protest: red flag is for blood of workers, black flag is for shit (unko) of workers. :lol:

[Tim Cornelis]

Right.

The red-and-black flag is an Anarcho-Syndicalist flag, as others have said, (probably) first used by the CNT.

I'd hold that the flag of Anarchist Communism is the black flag.

Black represents anarchism, red socialism. So red-black flag can be used interchangeably with a black flag.


And I don't believe that Anarcho-Syndicalism is a 'tactic'. This was something of a slur on the Anarcho-Syndicalists perpetrated by Arshinov and the drafters of the Platform in 1926 (one of the things they got wrong in my opinion).

If you ask Anarcho-Syndicalists, most believe in Anarcho-Syndicalism not Anarchist Communism. They are different (though obviously related) traditions in the wider Anarchist movement.

The Dutch anarcho-syndicalists (the ASB) state on their website:

"Instead of capitalism and the state, we advocate a free society based on workers' self-management, solidarity, mutual aid, and libertarian communism. Such a society can be achieved through workers' organisations based on the principles of revolutionary syndicalism."

In other words, syndicalism is a tactic used to achieve communism.

[Tim Finnegan]

My coworker been around long time. He said to me during anti-Nuke protest: red flag is for blood of workers, black flag is for shit (unko) of workers. :lol:
Sounds like Dutch workers need to improve their diets. :blink:

[shinjuku dori]

Sounds like Dutch workers need to improve their diets. :blink:

Eh? I am living in Japan.

[Tim Finnegan]

(Yeah, I have no idea why I said "Dutch". I guess I got your post mixed up with somebody else? Or maybe it was everybody going on about Heineken? My brain is bulling blanks on this one. http://www.v-strom.co.uk/phpBB3/images/smilies/smiley_shrug.gif)

[NoOneIsIllegal]

Although it was famously created in use by the CNT-FAI, there were also earlier reports of the black-and-red in use. The first one that comes to mind is the anarchist insurrection in Benevento in 1877. Errico Malatesta, Carlo Cafiero, and lesser knowns, began a successful (but eventually doomed) insurrection in several Italian mountain villages, in which the guerrilla band were seen sporting "black and red cockades."

[Blake's Baby]

Tim F, I think that 'Dutch' needs to be read as 'Japanese'.

Tim C (I preferred it when you were called Goti), I didn't say all Anarcho-Syndicalists reject Anarchist Communism. Nor, for that matter do all Anarchist Communists reject the idea that Anarcho-Syndicalism is just a tactic rather than a serious revolutionary current. But there are enough Anarcho-Syndicalists who are not communists, and enough Anarchist Communists who are not syndicalists, that the two theories/schools should be considered as distinct. As I have already said, in 20 years as an Anarchist (Communist) I would never have marched under a red-and-black flag, because it signifies something that I am not.

[shinjuku dori]

What is an cockade? I cannot find this word

[Tim Finnegan]

Here's a question: does the use of a red and black flag by the 26th July Movement and the Sandinistas have anything to do with the anarchist red-black flag? You wouldn't think so, because ideologically they have almost nothing in common, but I can't really think of anywhere else they'd have got it from.


What is an cockade? I cannot find this word
It's a cloth badge worn on the hat that was traditionally worn as a form of military identification in early modern Europe. (Example.) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/70/Grottger-pozegnanie_fragm.jpg) It was usually used by forces that didn't have a standard uniform, particularly partisans and militias.

[Blake's Baby]

Tim F - ideologically, no, practically, yes. Where do you think the Spanish Anarcho-Syndicalists went, who were able to flee Spain? Mexico was one of the few safe places to be. I'm pretty certain that a few old fighters from Catalonia ended up in the guerrilla groups in Central America, fighting United Fruit, Coca Cola and whatnot. Even if the ideology was different I think there was a certain pragmatic accommodation.

Shinjuku Dori - cockades usually look like flowers ('rosettes' = 'little roses', like the one in Tim's picture) or are knots or bunches of ribbons, and are worn in hats.

[Tim Cornelis]

ELN also uses red-black flag.

[helot]

Tim F, I think that 'Dutch' needs to be read as 'Japanese'.

Tim C (I preferred it when you were called Goti), I didn't say all Anarcho-Syndicalists reject Anarchist Communism. Nor, for that matter do all Anarchist Communists reject the idea that Anarcho-Syndicalism is just a tactic rather than a serious revolutionary current. But there are enough Anarcho-Syndicalists who are not communists, and enough Anarchist Communists who are not syndicalists, that the two theories/schools should be considered as distinct. As I have already said, in 20 years as an Anarchist (Communist) I would never have marched under a red-and-black flag, because it signifies something that I am not.

Not all anarcho-syndicalists are anarchist communists although the majority are. I can't actually think of a single anarcho-syndicalist organisation that is not communist.

Anyway, as for the black and red flag the Anarchist Federation in the UK tends to use it also.

I see the red and black flag as the fusion of anarchism and the worker's movement.

[shinjuku dori]

I can't really think of anywhere else they'd have got it from.

Spanish revolution veteran trained Castro. Castro trained FSLN. :rolleyes:

[ed miliband]

Here's a question: does the use of a red and black flag by the 26th July Movement and the Sandinistas have anything to do with the anarchist red-black flag? You wouldn't think so, because ideologically they have almost nothing in common, but I can't really think of anywhere else they'd have got it from.

actually this is covered in 'black flame' - i'll dig out a quote for ya later

[Blake's Baby]

Not all anarcho-syndicalists are anarchist communists although the majority are. I can't actually think of a single anarcho-syndicalist organisation that is not communist...

Would you consider the IWW as anarcho-syndicalist? It certainly isn't communist.


Anyway, as for the black and red flag the Anarchist Federation in the UK tends to use it also...

I'm not really aware of that from the period when I was a sympathiser... when it was the ACF.


I see the red and black flag as the fusion of anarchism and the worker's movement.

That's how the CNT saw it, as I understand it - the red represented the working class and the black was the negation of nationalism. But the CNT were (are) Anarcho-Syndicalists. I wasn't.

[helot]

Would you consider the IWW as anarcho-syndicalist? It certainly isn't communist. i don't and neither does the IWW. I'd consider it an industrial union. The IWW has some elements found within anarcho-syndicalism such as a similar organisational structure but anarcho-syndicalism combines the economic and the political. It (atleast aims to) bridges the gap between workplace issues and community issues so a workplace and community union. Then there's also the fact that anarcho-syndicalism isn't specifically about industrial unionism. A-S unions have been organised both on industry and craft.

There is also distinct differences in tactics. Using the IWW in Britain as an example it seems they're taking a legalist approach such as state registration and individual representation.





I'm not really aware of that from the period when I was a sympathiser... when it was the ACF. I wasn't around during the ACF and i'm not sure if it's the case throughout AFED but i have seen some AF members brandishing the red and black.. I know Leeds AF have a red/black banner.




That's how the CNT saw it, as I understand it - the red represented the working class and the black was the negation of nationalism. But the CNT were (are) Anarcho-Syndicalists. I wasn't.

Fair enough. There's no point in using symbols you're not comfortable with.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I don't know where folk are finding all there anarcho-syndicalists who aren't communists - though, I suspect it might be a question of quibbling over definitions.
In any case, syndicalism represents a tactical/strategic outlook, whereas communism is a vision. Since the two have been intricately linked historically, the common flag isn't really all that surprising. You know, how come communists and Communists both use the red flag?

[Blake's Baby]

And are you an Anarcho-Syndicalist, or an Anarchist Communist, Virgin Molotov Cocktail?

[Rusty Shackleford]

Anarcho-Communism is a strategy for reaching Anarchy/Communism, and Anarcho-Syndicalism is a tactic used to get there and a method of labor organization. They have the same flag because it was originally the flag of the CNT-FAI, which created Anarchist Communism largely via Anarcho-Syndicalism.
when was this? i was under the impression that Peter Kropotkin 'founded' anarchist communism in the late 1800s pre-1910s.

[Blake's Baby]

He means 'created 'actually existing' Anarchist Communism', through the application of Anarcho-Syndicalism, in Spain 1936-39.

[Comrade Trollface]

I think he means 'implemented.' Which as far as I know was perhaps true in rural communes, but Barcelona operated under another species of libertarian socialism. The Spanish Revolution was really quashed by an unholy alliance of Stalinists, fascists, liberals and other bourgeois forces during a transitional stage.