Days and actions of SYRIZA

[Delenda Carthago]

This is the movement that SYN / SYRIZA preaches about, even claiming that this will support the "leftist government" at work : Negotiation on how many workers will lose.


In Hellenic Petroleum the trade union wing of SYRIZA, which is majority union in the area, together with a piece of Pasco, signed a contract provides: Reduce salaries for new entrants over 10%, increase working hours by 15 minutes </span>day = 12 days a year, opening the way for contractors to enter the storage area of ​​the business, excluding the respective workers from CRS.

At the company "Asprofos" an engineering company in the Energy, with exactly the same shape SYRIZA's syndicalist part, "Independent Intervention" did about the same as it did in Hellenic Petroleum.

At the business association in the supermarket "Veropoulos", which supports the election of "independent intervention" in the Federation of Private Employees, recently signed a contract that provides 12% pay cut for workers with full employment and 10% in part-time workers.ISAP in the club area, where majority SYRIZA, together with DAKE signed a contract that incorporates the reductions as high as 35% and highlights the erosion of workers' salaries.


When Tsipras was asked before the elections about it, he answered that "we should not make this a big deal".

The conclusions are all yours to make.

[A Marxist Historian]

This is the movement that SYN / SYRIZA preaches about, even claiming that this will support the "leftist government" at work : Negotiation on how many workers will lose.


In Hellenic Petroleum the trade union wing of SYRIZA, which is majority union in the area, together with a piece of Pasco, signed a contract provides: Reduce salaries for new entrants over 10%, increase working hours by 15 minutes </span>day = 12 days a year, opening the way for contractors to enter the storage area of ​​the business, excluding the respective workers from CRS.

At the company "Asprofos" an engineering company in the Energy, with exactly the same shape SYRIZA's syndicalist part, "Independent Intervention" did about the same as it did in Hellenic Petroleum.

At the business association in the supermarket "Veropoulos", which supports the election of "independent intervention" in the Federation of Private Employees, recently signed a contract that provides 12% pay cut for workers with full employment and 10% in part-time workers.ISAP in the club area, where majority SYRIZA, together with DAKE signed a contract that incorporates the reductions as high as 35% and highlights the erosion of workers' salaries.


When Tsipras was asked before the elections about it, he answered that "we should not make this a big deal".

The conclusions are all yours to make.

I can't help noticing that all the advocates here of how SYRIZA is the greatest thing since sliced bread are avoiding this thread like the plague.

-M.H.-

[Geiseric]

Well what do the trade union leaders think? Any lines from them?

[Crux]

I can't help noticing that all the advocates here of how SYRIZA is the greatest thing since sliced bread are avoiding this thread like the plague.

-M.H.-
Who are those people? Otherwise that seems like you're just using a weaselword. I think I've made my position very clear re the Center (Tsipras etc) and Right of SYRIZA.

[shinjuku dori]

Why are you in love with a capitalist party? Because they call socialist? Is it also why you love capitalist Chavez and Hong Kong? Some other guy called socialist too: Hitler.

[Crux]

Why are you in love with a capitalist party? Because they call socialist? Is it also why you love capitalist Chavez and Hong Kong? Some other guy called socialist too: Hitler.
That's a blatant violation of Godwin's law. And uhm...who are you talking to? Me? I don't recall being in love with Chavez, SYRIZA or...euhrm Hong Kong.

[shinjuku dori]

CWI member.

[shinjuku dori]

chinaworker is pro-capitalist Hong Kong thing.

[Crux]

chinaworker is pro-capitalist Hong Kong thing.
Haha. You make joke. Funny. but let's not derail this discussion with your non sequiturs.

[shinjuku dori]

They want to install American unions to overthrow Chinese government. Same as Solidarity style in Poland. You support it.,

[Crux]

They want to install American unions to overthrow Chinese government. Same as Solidarity style in Poland. You support it.,
again with the jokes. We're trying to have a serious discussion here, funnyman.

[shinjuku dori]

That;s the real thing buddy. Why are you Social Democrat? Every Sweed, right?

[Crux]

That;s the real thing buddy. Why are you Social Democrat? Every Sweed, right?
hahahaha . Stop stop who are you making a caricature of? It's brilliant. Of course the alternative is of course that you think you're being serious. Which incidentally deserves the same response because it's laughable. Yes yes all swedes are socdems. If you truly believe that it shows you for the ignoramus you are. So please do try and back up your nonsense or, you know, shut up. You're embaressing yourself.

[A Marxist Historian]

Why are you in love with a capitalist party? Because they call socialist? Is it also why you love capitalist Chavez and Hong Kong? Some other guy called socialist too: Hitler.

SYRIZA is not a capitalist party, that's really rather absurd.

Unless you think all parties are by definition capitalist, which I wouldn't be surprised if you do, seeing some of your other postings.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

They want to install American unions to overthrow Chinese government. Same as Solidarity style in Poland. You support it.,

Quite accurate from what I've heard, but this is a question for a different thread, and just derails the discussion here, which is about Greece.

-M.H.-

[GuardiaRossa]

Can anyone explain to me the logic behind KOE being in SYRIZA? If i'm correct KOE was formed as an antirevisionist split from the KKE right? So then why make such an opportunist turn? What's the logic behind that? And what's the position of the KKE(ml) and ml-KKE and other maoist groups in Greece on Syriza?

[Crux]

Quite accurate from what I've heard, but this is a question for a different thread, and just derails the discussion here, which is about Greece.

-M.H.-
no matter the country, those that can't distingiush between counter revolution and revolution, leadership and base indeed capitalism and socialism are lost. Disagree with our chinese comrades all you like but do not lie about them either in this thread or anywhere else. Our comrades are putting their lifes on the line in the struggle for building genuine worker's organizations in china. We do not want any scum like Lech Walesa or american unions whatever you mean by that. And again to come back to greece we are not "fans" of Tsipras. But we do consider SYRIZA a battleground were the revolutionary left should join with the masses rallying behind SYRIZA to defeat the Right inside SYRIZA. I don't think I would call that cheerleading. If the sparts wish to try and intervene in the KKE be my guest. As I've explained before we have for a very long time and do still orient towards the KKE rank and file and sympathizers. However KKE was after ND the second least popular party among the youth whereas SYRIZA was the most popular. Those who have the youth have the future. Sadly much of the flaws in either party mirror the other. Where KKE are sterile and secterian SYRIZA are amourphous and opportunist. That's why the revolutionary left must lift clear slogans, like my comrades have done from day one.

[A Marxist Historian]

Who are those people? Otherwise that seems like you're just using a weaselword. I think I've made my position very clear re the Center (Tsipras etc) and Right of SYRIZA.

M, it isn't all about you. There are plenty of folk here on Revleft who were over the moon about SYRIZA, I feel no compulsion to call each one out by name.

And plenty of folk off Revleft too. Enthusiasm for SYRIZA with its high vote totals is widespread in a desperate and isolated left.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

no matter the country, those that can't distingiush between counter revolution and revolution, leadership and base indeed capitalism and socialism are lost. Disagree with our chinese comrades all you like but do not lie about them either in this thread or anywhere else. Our comrades are putting their lifes on the line in the struggle for building genuine worker's organizations in china. We do not want any scum like Lech Walesa or american unions whatever you mean by that. And again to come back to greece we are not "fans" of Tsipras. But we do consider SYRIZA a battleground were the revolutionary left should join with the masses rallying behind SYRIZA to defeat the Right inside SYRIZA. I don't think I would call that cheerleading. If the sparts wish to try and intervene in the KKE be my guest. As I've explained before we have for a very long time and do still orient towards the KKE rank and file and sympathizers. However KKE was after ND the second least popular party among the youth whereas SYRIZA was the most popular. Those who have the youth have the future. Sadly much of the flaws in either party mirror the other. Where KKE are sterile and secterian SYRIZA are amourphous and opportunist. That's why the revolutionary left must lift clear slogans, like my comrades have done from day one.

Is then the "China Worker" our sectarian Japanese poster mentioned, whose orientation to Lech Walesa style "free world unionism" is well known, not a project you guys are involved in? If so, just say so.

"Entering" the KKE is indeed a dubious proposition, for obvious reasons. But they put forward a revolutionary platform in the elections, at least verbally, whereas SYRIZA simply wanted an "anti-austerity" coalition government, bourgeois reform.

And that platform was much less popular than SYRIZA's, so you guys want to vote for it. Well, building a revolutionary movement is not a popularity contest.

-M.H.-

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

SYRIZA is not a capitalist party, that's really rather absurd.

Unless you think all parties are by definition capitalist, which I wouldn't be surprised if you do, seeing some of your other postings.

-M.H.-

Why is it absurd that SYRIZA is a capitalist party? Surely a party is either explicitly anti-capitalist and pro-revolutionary, or they are capitalist?

If we see fascism as being within the confines of the capitalist political economy, then you could quite easily, from a Marxist point of view, categories almost all political parties as advocating Capitalist economic relations, or advocating Socialised relations.

[Die Neue Zeit]

M, it isn't all about you. There are plenty of folk here on Revleft who were over the moon about SYRIZA, I feel no compulsion to call each one out by name.

And plenty of folk off Revleft too. Enthusiasm for SYRIZA with its high vote totals is widespread in a desperate and isolated left.

I'm still waiting for additional discussion in your "workers government" thread. :confused:

[Art Vandelay]

Why is it absurd that SYRIZA is a capitalist party? Surely a party is either explicitly anti-capitalist and pro-revolutionary, or they are capitalist?

If we see fascism as being within the confines of the capitalist political economy, then you could quite easily, from a Marxist point of view, categories almost all political parties as advocating Capitalist economic relations, or advocating Socialised relations.

I am thinking that MH would consider SYRIZA to be a bourgeois workers party.

[Grenzer]

I am thinking that MH would consider SYRIZA to be a bourgeois workers party.

So a capitalist party in short; and I doubt he would consider it to be bourgeois, although that is what it is. Social-democracy is just another strategy for the bourgeoisie to stay in power, but that clashes with the United Front's conception of social-democracy as a force to be allied with under certain conditions. MH's politics are insane, but there is a method to the madness.

Under his standards of what constitutes a worker's party; any liberal, conservative, or even fascist party would qualify. The core of Nazi supporters were not the petit-bourgeoisie, although they did make up significant numbers. Proportionally speaking, the working class provided the majority of the support. That's how it is with virtually every party in a capitalist country.

Syriza is a capitalist party, unless one believes that capitalism can genuinely be reformed into socialism; then we acknowledge that reformism only can ever result in remaining within the capitalist framework. In effect, it's the same thing as being a capitalist party.

[Geiseric]

Dude social democracy isn't just a tool that the bourgeois use to retain power, it's actually a party that acts in the interest of the working class for a while. There is no revolutionary vanguard or any group that could call themselves a possible revolutionary leadership. KKE has sold out over and over and are by now a bourgeois party, they endorse eurocommunism right? the best move would be to enter into and radicalize SYRIZA, as communists in the US went into Occupy and gained tons of members for organizations, and often took a leadership in actual class struggle situations away from the postmodernists.

[Grenzer]

Dude social democracy isn't just a tool that the bourgeois use to retain power, it's actually a party that acts in the interest of the working class for a while.

Actually that's exactly what it is. Social-democracy has shown itself to be an entirely bankrupt force since 1914.

In the current epoch of capitalism, reformism is completely useless in making even temporary gains. Things were different over a hundred years ago, but it's certainly not the case today.

So basically you want to ignore the party that actually calls itself communist and calls for revolution, and work with keynesian liberals? Splendid idea. I can tell that's going to work out real well.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I am thinking that MH would consider SYRIZA to be a bourgeois workers party.

Yeah, a Capitalist party...:confused:

[Delenda Carthago]

As I've explained before we have for a very long time and do still orient towards the KKE rank and file and sympathizers. However KKE was after ND the second least popular party among the youth whereas SYRIZA was the most popular. Those who have the youth have the future.
A. KNE is the biggest party youth in Greece (with over than 13.000 members, I checked it out).

B. Ow my God this is so blatant opportunist, I find an artistic sence to it!!!
"Those who have the youth have the future", nice....

[Delenda Carthago]

KKE has sold out over and over and are by now a bourgeois party, they endorse eurocommunism right?
http://cdn.babble.com/babble-voices/dan-pearce-danoah-unleashed/files/2012/04/noah-picking-nose.jpg

[Crux]

A. KNE is the biggest party youth in Greece (with over than 13.000 members, I checked it out).

B. Ow my God this is so blatant opportunist, I find an artistic sence to it!!!
"Those who have the youth have the future", nice....
yes I like that Lenin quote too. And sure looking only at election results is an oversimplification I'll grant you that. But it is a fact that much of the greek youth are moving towards SYRIZA.

[Delenda Carthago]

yes I like that Lenin quote too. And sure looking only at election results is an oversimplification I'll grant you that. But it is a fact that much of the greek youth are moving towards SYRIZA.
Of course it is. SYRIZA gained 30%, of course jundreds of thousands of these are young people. And so what? PASOK and ND still the numero uno power in the univercities. Are they the future too? What does "moving towards" means anyway? Voting once in 4 years a party that is completely safe for everyone? And that it promises you that its gonn solve your problems while you drink your coffee? Dont think so.

The future is where the militants are. And in that sence, GD and KKE have way more future than all the bourgeois parties, left and right wing.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Didn't KKE sell out not all that long ago and take part in a bourgeois government?

Whatever one thinks of SYRIZA, we should be so binary as to say: oh, if SYRIZA are a bourgeois party, then we should support the KKE.

[Delenda Carthago]

Didn't KKE sell out not all that long ago and take part in a bourgeois government?

Whatever one thinks of SYRIZA, we should be so binary as to say: oh, if SYRIZA are a bourgeois party, then we should support the KKE.

yPiwd2pocPE

It was a "special cause goverment" that was for 6 months so that the ex-prime minister Andreas Papandreou would get trialed for Koskotas scandal. Plus, check this out, super funny, all the members of KKE that supported that coalition, left for Synaspismos, the biggest party in SYRIZA! Right? RIIIIIIIIIIIGHT. So lets not bring that fuckin thing again. TY.


Maybe I should have it on a .txt somewhere to c/p every fuckin time someone brings that up.

[Welshy]

KKE has sold out over and over and are by now a bourgeois party, they endorse eurocommunism right?

I find it hilarious that you are condemning the KKE for selling out and being euro-communist when you are supporting the side of the split in the original KKE that was explicitly euro-communist and reformist. When will you admit that you just have a hard on for reformists and that the only reason why you don't support the KKE is because they still like Stalin and don't follow your concept of creating one big ol' happy reformist party that you can be the left wing of.

[ed miliband]

"neither kke nor syriza, but international socialism"

[A Marxist Historian]

I'm still waiting for additional discussion in your "workers government" thread. :confused:

Me too!

If you'll do a critique of the piece I posted, I'll be glad to return the favor and critique the one you posted.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

So a capitalist party in short; and I doubt he would consider it to be bourgeois, although that is what it is. Social-democracy is just another strategy for the bourgeoisie to stay in power, but that clashes with the United Front's conception of social-democracy as a force to be allied with under certain conditions. MH's politics are insane, but there is a method to the madness.

Under his standards of what constitutes a worker's party; any liberal, conservative, or even fascist party would qualify. The core of Nazi supporters were not the petit-bourgeoisie, although they did make up significant numbers. Proportionally speaking, the working class provided the majority of the support. That's how it is with virtually every party in a capitalist country.

Syriza is a capitalist party, unless one believes that capitalism can genuinely be reformed into socialism; then we acknowledge that reformism only can ever result in remaining within the capitalist framework. In effect, it's the same thing as being a capitalist party.

Uh? Then you agree with Stalin's notion that Social Democracy is "social fascism"?

Bourgeois workers parties, whether we are talking about right wing ones like the French Socialist Party or left wing ones like SYRIZA, are contradictory. They are not the same as the Democratic Party or the Tories or the Republicans or the ND and PASOK.

That the Democratic Party has a working class voter base, and I suppose even the Nazis had some workers voting for them, doesn't affect its class nature as a party.

What's the simplest way to determine the class nature of a party? Follow the money. The Democrats, the Republicans, ND and PASOK are funded by sectors of their respective ruling classes. SYRIZA and the French SP, and KKE, are funded by their working class constituents and base, sometimes by way of union funding and sometimes directly, and therefore are ultimately responsible to them.

We Marxists do see economics as primary after all, don't we?

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Dude social democracy isn't just a tool that the bourgeois use to retain power, it's actually a party that acts in the interest of the working class for a while. There is no revolutionary vanguard or any group that could call themselves a possible revolutionary leadership. KKE has sold out over and over and are by now a bourgeois party, they endorse eurocommunism right? the best move would be to enter into and radicalize SYRIZA, as communists in the US went into Occupy and gained tons of members for organizations, and often took a leadership in actual class struggle situations away from the postmodernists.

Actually, the Eurocommunists split out a long time ago and founded--SYRIZA. SYRIZA's core is former Eurocommunists, the "left" wing of Eurocommunism as opposed to the right wing, DL, who are supporting the PASOK-ND government now.

As for entering Occupy, which was a non-class populist movement vs. "the 99%," not a workers movement, well, we shall see if that was a good idea. Good for short term recruitment, but now that Occupy has collapsed, hopefully the best elements in it will reject petty-bourgeois populism and move towards working class socialism--and not want to have anything to do with those who went along with the "99%" populist rhetoric etc.

Right now, the better elements from Occupy are into insurrectionary anarchism--hopefully a phase they'll get over.

-M.H.-

[Ravachol]

Right now, the better elements from Occupy are into insurrectionary anarchism--hopefully a phase they'll get over.


lolwat :blink:

[Crux]

Of course it is. SYRIZA gained 30%, of course jundreds of thousands of these are young people. And so what? PASOK and ND still the numero uno power in the univercities. Are they the future too? What does "moving towards" means anyway? Voting once in 4 years a party that is completely safe for everyone? And that it promises you that its gonn solve your problems while you drink your coffee? Dont think so.

The future is where the militants are. And in that sence, GD and KKE have way more future than all the bourgeois parties, left and right wing.
That PASOK and ND have a strong position in the Universities has very little to do with political support among youth, and you should know that too. If memory serves over half of all voters 18-24 voted for SYRIZA. So you know, you are sidestepping the issue here.

Ah, so first GD then KKE? Worked out great last time.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Actually that's exactly what it is. Social-democracy has shown itself to be an entirely bankrupt force since 1914.

In the current epoch of capitalism, reformism is completely useless in making even temporary gains. Things were different over a hundred years ago, but it's certainly not the case today.

So basically you want to ignore the party that actually calls itself communist and calls for revolution, and work with keynesian liberals? Splendid idea. I can tell that's going to work out real well.

Note to Leon: In the context of comrade Ghost Bebel's posts, the key word here is "reformism." I'm sure he hasn't bought into the "decadent epoch" or other such left-com stuff on the question of reforms per se.

The more accurate term would be "reform coalitionism," though.


I find it hilarious that you are condemning the KKE for selling out and being euro-communist when you are supporting the side of the split in the original KKE that was explicitly euro-communist and reformist. When will you admit that you just have a hard on for reformists and that the only reason why you don't support the KKE is because they still like Stalin and don't follow your concept of creating one big ol' happy reformist party that you can be the left wing of.

Well, the KKE has, in spite of the rhetoric, moved to the right, while SYRIZA before all this talk of "workers government" moved to the left. MH also mentioned the Democratic Left, the former right-wing of the Euro-coms whose split formation helped SYRIZA move left.

[Homo Songun]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2473633#post2473633) KKE has sold out over and over and are by now a bourgeois party, they endorse eurocommunism right?
How can I put this in terms Revleft would understand? Saying KKE is Eurocommunist is like... calling Bordiga a Gramscian? Calling Crimethinc Platformists? People ought to do due diligence on trends outside their ideological ghetto of choice.


Well, the KKE has, in spite of the rhetoric, moved to the right, while SYRIZA before all this talk of "workers government" moved to the leftNot buying it. I don't even particularly like KKE, but come on.

[Geiseric]

I didn't know that SYRIZA formed as a euro communist split, but that doesn't change that the newest generation of working class militants is gravitating towards it, seeing that it's new. And you guys missed my point with occupy, I was saying that these organizations while not revolutionary yet (which would be useless since the greek working class at this exact moment isn't revolutionary) gain their base of support from left workers who haven't quite reached the conclusions that reformism won't work, ultimately, in the austerity crisis. Organized labor and other community organizations are supporting more and more SYRIZA, so it would make sense to make that support go towards something productive instead of letting centrists and bourgeois reformists keep control of the established organization (to the workers) that is formed around fighting austerity. there's no other choice now than radicalizing the militants already moving to the side of socialism. Occupy has class struggle militants, as does SYRIZA.

[Geiseric]

And when I really think about it KKE would be the opposite of eurocommunist, more like a modern Stalinist party. Sorry about that mix up, but I don't need fucking 8 people to highlight it for me.

[Welshy]

@Brotsky:

You are taking two elections where SYRIZA have sky rocketed in the polls as a sign of a future trend or some revolutionary potential with in SYRIZA. The problem is that the only reason it seems that workers are being attracted towards SYRIZA is because of their talk of ending austerity and bring things back to way they were before the crisis. The moment that SYRIZA gets any power and they realize they can't stay in the EU and institute the anti-austerity program, they will probably surrender and start instituting austerity or just all together flounder. Or if SYRIZA never gets into power then their plan of action which is focus solely around electoralism becomes utterly useless to the working class and just serves as way to try to maintain the workers hopes that the solution to the crisis exists with in capitalism.

SYRIZA's popularity is just representative of a stage with in the development of class consciousness in the greek working class and it is a stage that will need to get out of if they are to abolish capitalism. It is the job of communists to try to help them develop out of this state instead of opportunistically flocking to the biggest social democratic/euro-communist party in hopes of capturing it. The process of entryism has been shown for the past several decades to be horribly useless tactic.

[Geiseric]

Great so don't enter into SYRIZA and remain as sects with no influence, or enter into KKE and be part of their bureaucratic centralism. It's your choice, but basically we aren't in any position to do anything other than propagandize, aggitate, and organize at this point and SYRIZA is the place to do that. And entryism has worked in the past, look up "the french turn," and the entryism done by trotskyists into the SP-USA in the 1930s, which allowed for parties to form which led huge strikes and took part in the class struggle. and you're mistaking polls, elections, statistics, and evidence that SYRIZA is more popular than any party other than ND for I suppose false consciousness. But you're also belittling that 27% of recently radicalized greek voters hope that the "radical left," by basically saying to them, "sorry, your interest was for nothing. austerity will happen because the 'left,' is incapible of helping you." More and more failures for the anti austerity forces to unify will lead to support for GD.

[Delenda Carthago]

Great so don't enter into SYRIZA and remain as sects with no influence, or enter into KKE and be part of their bureaucratic centralism. It's your choice, but basically we aren't in any position to do anything other than propagandize, aggitate, and organize at this point and SYRIZA is the place to do that. And entryism has worked in the past, look up "the french turn," and the entryism done by trotskyists into the SP-USA in the 1930s, which allowed for parties to form which led huge strikes and took part in the class struggle. and you're mistaking polls, elections, statistics, and evidence that SYRIZA is more popular than any party other than ND for I suppose false consciousness. But you're also belittling that 27% of recently radicalized greek voters hope that the "radical left," by basically saying to them, "sorry, your interest was for nothing. austerity will happen because the 'left,' is incapible of helping you." More and more failures for the anti austerity forces to unify will lead to support for GD.


Seriously, for someone that knows so litle, you might want to be more modest about your opinions.

[Delenda Carthago]

Ah, so first GD then KKE? Worked out great last time.
lolwut?

[Geiseric]

Do you mean "little?"

[A Marxist Historian]

yPiwd2pocPE

It was a "special cause goverment" that was for 6 months so that the ex-prime minister Andreas Papandreou would get trialed for Koskotas scandal. Plus, check this out, super funny, all the members of KKE that supported that coalition, left for Synaspismos, the biggest party in SYRIZA! Right? RIIIIIIIIIIIGHT. So lets not bring that fuckin thing again. TY.


Maybe I should have it on a .txt somewhere to c/p every fuckin time someone brings that up.

Not so simple. Yes, the KKE has issued gentle hints that that was a mistake, and put all the blame on the Eurocommunists now outside the KKE.

And at the moment, the KKE is against all coalitions with bourgeois parties, which is the fundamental reason why they were worth voting for.

But the KKE has never done a theoretical accounting as to why it committed this "mistake," which is more like a crime than a mistake. To do so, it would have to get to the roots, to Stalin, to Dimitrov, to Popular Frontism, to the class collaborationist role of the KKE during and after WWII.

In short, it would have to reject Stalinism.

This is what truly revolutionary militants within the KKE need to do.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Great so don't enter into SYRIZA and remain as sects with no influence, or enter into KKE and be part of their bureaucratic centralism. It's your choice, but basically we aren't in any position to do anything other than propagandize, aggitate, and organize at this point and SYRIZA is the place to do that. And entryism has worked in the past, look up "the french turn," and the entryism done by trotskyists into the SP-USA in the 1930s, which allowed for parties to form which led huge strikes and took part in the class struggle. and you're mistaking polls, elections, statistics, and evidence that SYRIZA is more popular than any party other than ND for I suppose false consciousness. But you're also belittling that 27% of recently radicalized greek voters hope that the "radical left," by basically saying to them, "sorry, your interest was for nothing. austerity will happen because the 'left,' is incapible of helping you." More and more failures for the anti austerity forces to unify will lead to support for GD.

Why did Trotsky call for entering the Socialist Parties in the 1930s? Because they had taken a huge step to the Left. In the USA, the Socialist Party of Norman Thomas, after the right wing walked out, actually adopted, believe it or not, the dictatorship of the proletariat.

In Spain, Spanish SP leader Caballero was calling himself the "Spanish Lenin." France (where the French turn actually didn't work too well), you also had a big turn to the left by the French SP.

What do we have in Greece? We have a KKE that now is talking about revolution and socialism, and a SYRIZA wanting to unite everybody in an "anti-austerity" coalition, Popular Front style.

Which does *not* mean that entering the KKE would be a good idea. During the Greek Civil War, Trotskyists under Pablo's leadership tried entering the CP-led Resisitance movements, and were murdered by the hundreds. I don't think the KKE these days is that bad anymore, but I don't think the KKE would exactly welcome Trotskyist entrists with open arms--as much of the American SP did, at first at least.

Entrism is an occasional tactic for particular circumstances, not usually a good idea. Your heritage from Ted Grant-CWI ultra-entrism, which you guys have only partially rejected, is showing here.

One group that split out of the CWI recently actually advocates entry into the North Korean CP!

-M-H.-

[Ravachol]

lolwut?

He means (I think) the 'Nach Hitler, uns!' position of the late-Weimar KPD, which didn't work out all that great. I think its a misrepresentation of your position though and we all know what I think of the KKE.

I do think Delenda has a point that the whole 'whoever has the youth' position isn't necessarily all that decisive, there's a huuuuge difference between swaying young voters to agree with you program of capitalist stabilization or producing young militants (in this case, to support capitalist stabilization of another variety but oh well that's not the point of my post).

[KokkinoTsakali]

Despite KKE's revolutionary rhetoric, it has become a bourgeois party. I can assure you that even this 4% of KKE's voters are not even considering revolution. Most of them vote for it just like the elder people vote for the conservative bourgeois parties. It is a necessity that if you are a leftist, you have to vote for KKE, and it is the result of their propaganda. Their role is completely counter-revolutionary, despite their rhetoric. PASOK talks about establishing socialism, does that make it a socialist party? They are the same with ND, just like every 'socialist' party in the world. The same applies to KKE. And another contradiction of the KKE rhetoric is their 'strategy' for establishing communism. First of all, communism cannot be established in a jiffy. Socialism has yet to be achieved, and it will take time and effort to achieve it. There has to be a temporary transitional phase in which people must be radicalised, as the majority of the Greek people consider every revolution-themed talk as utopian.

Also, all this 'exit from the EU' talk, is all part of their main ideology, which is Stalinism. And please cut the crap about KKE being the most militant. Even the fact that you are comparing it to GD, says this much. I haven't seen KKE participating in anti-fascist or anti-racist demonstrations. I respect their militancy in PAME, but supporting the workers' rights is not their only responsibility. If they want to be called militant, at least try and fight the Nazis on the street, something that even reformists within SYRIZA support.

These past months I have seen people from many countries that support SYRIZA. The Spanish CP also suggested that Greek people should vote for SYRIZA.Tariq Ali has made this suggestion in public, while on a festival of NAR (part of ANTARSYA), and even Greek anarchists supported SYRIZA and many even voted for it. Is it also a coincidence that SYRIZA was first in worker neighborhoods? And this is another mistake of KKE. They underestimate the perception and the maturity of their ex-voters, and undermine their choice to vote for SYRIZA, by saying that the people were 'fooled' and 'tricked'.

The worst part of it is that KKE's stance is giving space for the Nazis of GD just like the German CP before Hitler's rise. SYRIZA in contrast, is supporting a United Front (not a 'Popular' one) where even the Stalinists of the KKE and social-democrats of DL would ally against the traditional bourgeois parties and GD. Because it seems only logical to many people that the priority of the hostile factions that need to be dealt with goes as such: Fascist(GD, LAOS), traditional bourgeois/capitalist (ND, PASOK), Social-Democrats/bourgeois (DL), Stalinist (KKE).

[Delenda Carthago]

stupid blah blah.
Pretty good rhetorics for an enemy of communism. Maybe you should work on the part were you were underestimating the importance of class struggle as if it was just another issue like veganism and DIY music. Perhaps then, a nazi would believe you were a leftist too. But now not even a nazi would.

Now, can you please explain to our comrades in RevLeft what is happening in this video please?

eKU3f5aCHUk

[KokkinoTsakali]

Pretty good rhetorics for an enemy of communism. Maybe you should work on the part were you were underestimating the importance of class struggle as if it was just another issue like veganism and DIY music. Perhaps then, a nazi would believe you were a leftist too. But now not even a nazi would.

Now, can you please explain to our comrades in RevLeft what is happening in this video please?

eKU3f5aCHUk

Oh, right. I have already said many times that I acknowledge the fact that SYRIZA and especially SYN has many reformists. Dragasakis is one of them and is considered to belong to the 'right current' of SYN. Now, I agree with you on criticizing him from a left perspective, however how would you want SYRIZA's revolutionary leftists to answer? By shutting his mouth? Or maybe by cutting off his tongue? Unfortunately, he has many supporters within SYN, so the only solution is for the revolutionary parties within SYRIZA to make sure he doesn't express his own opinion as an official one.

The similarities that existed in the programmes of SYRIZA and ND had to do with salary and pension raises and other social measures, which originally belonged to SYRIZA. ND always before the elections states that there'll be such measures but never actually applies them.

Also, you can see which was the party that frightened the most the Troika and the rest of our European partners. It was SYRIZA, not KKE, that has been attacked through every mean possible to scare off its voters. It was SYRIZA the one that industrialists, business and hotel owners were more afraid of, which can be seen by their threats to the workers and the employees that if they'd vote for it, then they would shut down their businesses and fire them.

Moreover, I recall you saying about an 'alliance' of SYRIZA-controlled trade unions with PASKE in Hellenic Petroleum. Again, if something like that is real, I am unhappy that it happened, but it was a local incident, not the generalized image. PAME has made such mistakes, too, and I'm sorry to inform you, but no trade union 'negotiates' for salary raises and they're all making concessions so that the workers are not fired, and PAME is no exception. That's where KKE and other left parties differ: KKE tries to undermine every one else by making a fuss around some mistakes. Do you think that KKE has never done such mistakes? Who do you think that was responsible for the GD members entering the Steel workers strike? Or that SYRIZA can't publish such mistakes, to hurt KKE? Why can you not understand that in the end the only one that gets hurt is the Movement itself? Unless you know of struggles that were infallible. It is through unity that we can succeed, and what KKE does is calling everyone else, except its members and friends, opportunistic, and making divisive moves by setting false dilemmas on the workers.


Finally, I don't underestimate the class struggles of the workers, but GD is gaining popularity to the same voters that once voted for KKE. KKE has no antifascist and antiracist measures. And, if you were truly supporting the revolution, there would've been one by now. You have more militant workers in PAME than the revolutionaries of '17 had, in proportion to the population of each country, of course.

[Delenda Carthago]

Yeah, right.


So, since you dont want to inform our comrades, what we do see in the video is this: Giannis Dragasakis, the real boss in SYRIZA(and not of course youngster Tsipras) speaks with one of the "big heads" of ND, Avramopoulos. In the middle, we have the reporter Aftias. So, in some point (0.46) Aftias says "Mr. Avramopoulos, I have both your economical programms, and I see that you agree on the most imporant points. You agree on Eurobond, you agree on restoring the wages and pensions, you agree on the 2 year pension of the unemployed, you agree on the aftereffect, you agree on the new laws for the borrowers, you agree on the lowering of the Consumer Tax... " so then both of them start to have a nice convertation on how they should both focus on what united them, so they can work for the best interest of the country blah blah.

Viva Revolution.:thumbup1:

[KokkinoTsakali]

Yeah, right.


So, since you dont want to inform our comrades, what we do see in the video is this: Giannis Dragasakis, the real boss in SYRIZA(and not of course youngster Tsipras) speaks with one of the "big heads" of ND, Avramopoulos. In the middle, we have the reporter Aftias. So, in some point (0.46) Aftias says "Mr. Avramopoulos, I have both your economical programms, and I see that you agree on the most imporant points. You agree on Eurobond, you agree on restoring the wages and pensions, you agree on the 2 year pension of the unemployed, you agree on the aftereffect, you agree on the new laws for the borrowers, you agree on the lowering of the Consumer Tax... " so then both of them start to have a nice convertation on how they should both focus on what united them, so they can work for the best interest of the country blah blah.

Viva Revolution.:thumbup1:



Keep on blabbering about the reformists of SYN, I don't care. A big part of the Greek workers hopes that SYRIZA is first in the next elections. The measly 4% of the popular vote that KKE took represents just how much ground has it lost.

I like how you have no counter-arguments to oppose mine. It's typical of KNE members to answer just like you do.

[Delenda Carthago]

Keep on blabbering about the reformists of SYN, I don't care. A big part of the Greek workers hopes that SYRIZA is first in the next elections. The measly 4% of the popular vote that KKE took represents just how much ground has it lost.

I like how you have no counter-arguments to oppose mine. It's typical of KNE members to answer just like you do.
What answer? Its true. Many people hope that you can save the least on the contrary of ND. So what? Will you? No. Will you make any difference at all? No. PASOK in 2009 had 100 days of enormous popularity after 5 years of ND. Look at it now. You wont even have that 100 days.

[KokkinoTsakali]

What answer? Its true. Many people hope that you can save the least on the contrary of ND. So what? Will you? No. Will you make any difference at all? No. PASOK in 2009 had 100 days of enormous popularity after 5 years of ND. Look at it now. You wont even have that 100 days.

You must be ignorant if you believe that PASOK of '09 and '10 is the same with SYRIZA of '12. Even the popularity cannot be compared. SYRIZA participates in every popular struggle and even when KKE was criticizing the Squares Movement, SYRIZA members, little by little, entered it along with some trade unions. It is very easy sitting on a chair, and criticizing every other party's actions. Unless you start participating in every popular struggle, you will quickly be forgotten. KKE is not infallible, so grow up and let other criticize you, too.

[Delenda Carthago]

You must be ignorant if you believe that PASOK of '09 and '10 is the same with SYRIZA of '12.

Really? Why is that? Dont you have at least 3 big time MPs that was on PASOK then? Dont you have dozens big time members like Kotsakas and syndicalists like Fotopoulos that was in PASOK until recently?


SYRIZA participates in every popular struggle and even when KKE was criticizing the Squares Movement, SYRIZA members, little by little, entered it along with some trade unions.

No, there where no trade unions there. And the simple fact that last year SYRIZA was fighting for... direct democracy now and the deleting of all parties and now he finds PSI just fine, tells a lot!:lol::lol::lol::lol:





It is very easy sitting on a chair, and criticizing every other party's actions.

SITTING ON A CHAIR????? Dude, you serious man? you participated in one TV guided movement and all of the sudden you are the next Che Guevara? Get your shit straight.

[Delenda Carthago]

Oh, and another funny thing. On 5.22 Dragasakis says, laughing that "he agrees with dangerously many things" and that "if it was another person and not Avramopoulos( who used to be a leftist in his youth and they obviously know each other) against him, he wouldnt admit it".

:laugh:

Mind you, Dragasakis was the oppoment when Papariga won the elections in KKE and he lost with 3 votes difference. Just imagine that scum as GS of KKE and no real communist party in the country.

[Ravachol]

Mind you, Dragasakis was the oppoment when Papariga won the elections in KKE and he lost with 3 votes difference. Just imagine that scum as GS of KKE and no real communist party in the country.

*gasp* the horror! :rolleyes:

Fuck the whole SYRIZA/SYN thing but you're not really helping your own cause here by saying the guy you so vehemently denounce only lost internal KKE elections with a 3 vote difference...

[Delenda Carthago]

*gasp* the horror! :rolleyes:

Fuck the whole SYRIZA/SYN thing but you're not really helping your own cause here by saying the guy you so vehemently denounce only lost internal KKE elections with a 3 vote difference...
That was 20 years ago and after that, half the party left for Synaspismos. What can you do?There will always be snakes around. :unsure:

[KokkinoTsakali]

Really? Why is that? Dont you have at least 3 big time MPs that was on PASOK then? Dont you have dozens big time members like Kotsakas and syndicalists like Fotopoulos that was in PASOK until recently?

They joined SYN. So? What is your point? That SYN is more reformist than before? Let it be, hundred others, even from KKE and ANTARSYA, joined or will join the more revolutionary parties of the Coalition. Besides, the fact that they are from PASOK doesn't mean that they are all reformists. Many PASOK members once belonged to KKE, even Kyrtsos who was also the spokesman of LAOS. I also strongly believe that there are many reformists within KKE; the fact that they don't express any different opinion than the party's line, is because the next day they'll be kicked out of KKE.


SITTING ON A CHAIR????? Dude, you serious man? you participated in one TV guided movement and all of the sudden you are the next Che Guevara? Get your shit straight.

That's where I will always disagree with people like you. The fact that it was promoted by TV so much is irrelevant. The people were there. A true leftist would try to ward off the fascists along with their Greek flags and give a specific course to the movement. SYRIZA was there, ANTARSYA was, too, but KKE wasn't. Enter the movement and then alienate it and radicalize it from the inside while removing all the nationalistic remnants, instead of sitting back and let others do the job.

[KokkinoTsakali]

No, there where no trade unions there.

Do some research first. SYRIZA was the only party that tried to politicize the 'Aganaktismenoi' movement by bringing the trade unions in. KKE's only intervention was on a general strike in June along with PAME.

[Delenda Carthago]

They joined SYN. So? What is your point?

My point is, to remeber the mind set of Karl Liebknecht towards Plehanov, your party is equaly if not bigger enemy for the working class than Golden Dawn. Because you are the enemy behind our lines. You clear the deep PASOK from its sins and you open the back door for it, as a mechanism and as an ideology.




I also strongly believe that there are many reformists within KKE; the fact that they don't express any different opinion than the party's line, is because the next day they'll be kicked out of KKE. Exactly. Reformists dont belong in KKE.



That's where I will always disagree with people like you. The fact that it was promoted by TV so much is irrelevant. The people were there. A true leftist would try to ward off the fascists along with their Greek flags and give a specific course to the movement. SYRIZA was there, ANTARSYA was, too, but KKE wasn't. Enter the movement and then alienate it and radicalize it from the inside while removing all the nationalistic remnants, instead of sitting back and let others do the job.I dont know what a true leftist would do, since I m not a leftist. I know that a communist would not accept to make a huge step backwards in order to be more user friendly to "the people", which is the petit bourgeois and everyone under their ideological dominance. A place where a worker and its boss can "protest" together is not a place of radicalisation because SYRIZA managed to fish some votes. A communist knows that its all about class struggle.