Police makes teen expose herself

[Book O'Dead]

Forgive the title but I needed something provocative to draw attention to this particular instance of police abuse. Also I wasn't sure where to post it so, Moderators, if you have any problem with the title and/or the forum, I trust you'll know what to do:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/30/juan-de-los-rios-miramar-_n_1639806.html

[Pretty Flaco]

put that sick fuck in jail. a lot of shit coming out of florida lately.

[The Red Hammer and Sickle]

Geez, cops need warrants to go into people's homes, I don't think there is any sort of paper that makes it OK for a non-parent to look at a CHILD'S genetalia under non-lifethreatening circumstances. I thought that's what doctors are for.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Put him in prison in the general population.

[Luís Henrique]

From the article in the OP:


If convicted, the police captain faces 15 years in prison and up to a $10,000 fine.

So let's not accept anything less than 15 years in prison or US$ 10,000.00 in fines.

Luís Henrique

[shinjuku dori]

I don't throw my support behind capitalist justice. Only really justice will come post revolution, with peoples trials. Abolish the poliuce

[Quail]

What a disgusting abuse of power.

I don't really like the way that you felt the need to use the word "pussy" to draw attention to the story though.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't throw my support behind capitalist justice. Only really justice will come post revolution, with peoples trials. Abolish the poliuceIt would be hard to abolish them or build a movement against them if we acted like it wasn't important that they are above the law.

Any rare case when a cop actually does go on trial for killing or abusing people, it doesn't help the state for them to be held to the same standard as the population - it hurts their above the law status. Besides, cops won't actually be held accountable by bourgeois courts unless they are afraid of our reaction to the cops in question getting a free ride.

I want prisons abolished, but I also wanted murderous Oakland-cop Mehserley to do more than 1 year for killing Oscar Grant. Hell... it took a small civil disruption (a riot according to the media, but I think that overstates it, there should have been a major riot in response to that cold-blooded murder) and thousands of people rallying outside city hall for Oakland to even charge a cop shown on video killing a defenseless kid.

[Terminator X]

Terrible thread title, but this pig needs to be thrown in the tank and let the general population sort him out. Word gets out that he's a cop, and he'll have a fun old time.

[Book O'Dead]

What a disgusting abuse of power.

I don't really like the way that you felt the need to use the word "pussy" to draw attention to the story though.

If the story had been about something else I would agree with you. However, the disgusting title describes the disgusting thing a policeman did to a girl.

[shinjuku dori]

It would be hard to abolish them or build a movement against them if we acted like it wasn't important that they are above the law.

Any rare case when a cop actually does go on trial for killing or abusing people, it doesn't help the state for them to be held to the same standard as the population - it hurts their above the law status. Besides, cops won't actually be held accountable by bourgeois courts unless they are afraid of our reaction to the cops in question getting a free ride.

I want prisons abolished, but I also wanted murderous Oakland-cop Mehserley to do more than 1 year for killing Oscar Grant. Hell... it took a small civil disruption (a riot according to the media, but I think that overstates it, there should have been a major riot in response to that cold-blooded murder) and thousands of people rallying outside city hall for Oakland to even charge a cop shown on video killing a defenseless kid.

Comrade, putting cop through same kind of capitalist justice system he belongs to is some kind of Abrahamic retribution style of "justice." It's kind of "eye for eye" revenge.

That is not exactly communist program.

Communist program is to abolish that entire system so such thing cannot occur. Asking jailer to put jailer in jail is kind of distraction or joke. It won't reverse the rape of this poor girl.

[Ocean Seal]

Needed to inspect if she had sex with the 19 year old in the car? What the fuck? Well ACAB, but seriously what the fuck? And at the bottom of the page the cops killed a homeless man, beaten to death after being tasseled 6 times.

[Quail]

If the story had been about something else I would agree with you. However, the disgusting title describes the disgusting thing a policeman did to a girl.

I don't think that using a derogatory word for vagina describes the story any better. Yeah this cop is a fucking creepy scumbag, but I really don't see why that makes it appropriate to call a vagina a "pussy" - to me that word has sexist connotations and it is often used as an insult for a men who aren't seen as manly. I might be being a bit nitpicky, but I don't like that word and I don't think it's appropriate for this forum.

[Book O'Dead]

I don't think that using a derogatory word for vagina describes the story any better. Yeah this cop is a fucking creepy scumbag, but I really don't see why that makes it appropriate to call a vagina a "pussy" - to me that word has sexist connotations and it is often used as an insult for a men who aren't seen as manly. I might be being a bit nitpicky, but I don't like that word and I don't think it's appropriate for this forum.

It depends on the context, I suppose.

Pussy is not a derogatory term when referenced to a woman's vagina on certain occasions.

In this case, though, I think that it is appropriate because that is what I suppose was going through that cop's mind when he assaulted the girl.

"PUSSY"! Objectified. Detached from the person who is, at that very moment, paralized by horror, shame and fear.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

What the actual fuck.

[Halleluhwah]

I don't think that using a derogatory word for vagina describes the story any better. Yeah this cop is a fucking creepy scumbag, but I really don't see why that makes it appropriate to call a vagina a "pussy" - to me that word has sexist connotations and it is often used as an insult for a men who aren't seen as manly. I might be being a bit nitpicky, but I don't like that word and I don't think it's appropriate for this forum.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pusillanimous

Are you really going to make people type out this word? :(

But yeah, I agree that it probably wasn't an appropriate title for the thread.

Also: What? You expect me to believe a cop abused his power and might even be an authoritarian, misogynistic scumbag? Nice try, next you'll be telling me there are racist cops as well. :lol:

edit: Welp, apparently I was completely wrong and the pusillanimous thing isn't true. My bad.

[Book O'Dead]

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pusillanimous

Are you really going to make people type out this word? :(

But yeah, I agree that it probably wasn't an appropriate title for the thread.

Also: What? You expect me to believe a cop abused his power and might even be an authoritarian, misogynistic scumbag? Nice try, next you'll be telling me there are racist cops as well. :lol:

edit: Welp, apparently I was completely wrong and the pusillanimous thing isn't true. My bad.

Maybe I'm the one guilty of pusillanimity.

If I hadn't mentioned the title in my intro it likely would not have been an issue. but it doesn't matter, the issue that's important is the report that a cop assaulted someone thinking he could get away with it.

What the fuck gave him that assurance?

[Jimmie Higgins]

Comrade, putting cop through same kind of capitalist justice system he belongs to is some kind of Abrahamic retribution style of "justice." It's kind of "eye for eye" revenge.That has nothing to do with why I would support cops - who have actually been caught doing the type of extra-legal shit that's the norm for them - getting locked up. I doesn't even have to do with the individual cop being locked up, because probably they just think they are doing their job, and in a way they were.


Communist program is to abolish that entire system so such thing cannot occur. Asking jailer to put jailer in jail is kind of distraction or joke. It won't reverse the rape of this poor girl.No shit, but how do we get there? The "communist program" is also to end wars as we know them, how does this happen: through a class war! It's not "eye for an eye" or revenge, it's: what's the balance of class forces in society. If cops can go around beating people up unopposed and with immunity, then the balance is greater on their side and it's harder for us to organize or just live or lives. If cops are worried that when they profile and harass, someone might pop up with a cell phone camera and cause popular outrage leading to the cop losing his job and possibly being imprisoned, then it make it harder for them to "do their job" which is mainly harassing and controlling poor people.

A video camera and public outrage is a modest start and can make an impact; movements calling attention to these things or civil disturbances are better; at some point when class consciousness and radicalism is higher, we might see movements of a more radical nature develop that don't just try and get one cop held responsible, that don't just try and push back against repressive laws, but that organize in the neighborhoods impacted by police violence - people who could keep their own peace, not the peace that the bosses want.

[Robocommie]

Comrade, putting cop through same kind of capitalist justice system he belongs to is some kind of Abrahamic retribution style of "justice." It's kind of "eye for eye" revenge.

That is not exactly communist program.

Communist program is to abolish that entire system so such thing cannot occur. Asking jailer to put jailer in jail is kind of distraction or joke. It won't reverse the rape of this poor girl.

You know, I'll be honest, it's this kind of ultra-leftist bullshit that makes me want to just give up on leftists.

Not leftist politics. Just leftists.

First of all, who exactly is "putting him through the system"? Was it we Communists who reported the crime? No, it wasn't, it was the girl and her family. You know, the actual victim.

In other words, a 15 year old girl was molested and sexually humiliated by a man with all the power of the state behind him, and she had the courage to come forwards and charge the fuck, and you want to respond to that by saying that because it isn't part of the "Communist program" that absolutely nothing should be done and this pigfucker should be allowed to go scot free without so much as an inquest done.

In every practical sense, you want us as Communists to just tell her to stay quiet and take it, because we're trying to abolish the whole system. (which will be accomplished somehow, in the future, I guess)

This is what fucking happens when you replace basic empathy with theory.

[shinjuku dori]

But Jimmy you are relying on the capitalists to clean their own house. You want to pressure them to do "right thing." This is definition of reformism. No?

I am not interest.

Communists says: capitalist cares only of capital. It's true.

If we have some issue with the police, we don't go to police to police the police. Do we? Are we social democrat? Bourgeois lawyers? Community advisory board?

Whole basis of communism is that capitalist system cannot be made to work for human. That's why we need communism. So yes, only answer is indeed to abolish capitalism.

If workers decide they have confront some enemy like police, let it be done by themselves. It's basis of real kind of revolution.

Cop should be submit to popular tribunal in the street of his town.

[shinjuku dori]

If cops are worried that when they profile and harass, someone might pop up with a cell phone camera and cause popular outrage leading to the cop losing his job and possibly being imprisoned, then it make it harder for them to "do their job" which is mainly harassing and controlling poor people.

But this is exactly what cop do, in every country, from now and always. Even though there has been so many "bad cop" put through the system. Reformist been trying to "clean up" police for how many hundred years? How is it?

That's why communist says there is no way to stop this except stop cop as organization.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

*mimes smashing said pig in the head several times before dropping him in the prison shower room*

I wish I could be more intelliegent or rational or clever about it, but that is all I want to do or have happen; I want him to suffer and be humiliated. At the very least, let him be held to account and charged to the full extent of existing laws.

[shinjuku dori]

In other words, a 15 year old girl was molested and sexually humiliated by a man with all the power of the state behind him, and she had the courage to come forwards and charge the fuck, and you want to respond to that by saying that because it isn't part of the "Communist program" that absolutely nothing should be done and this pigfucker should be allowed to go scot free without so much as an inquest done.

These must be "other words" because they are not words I typed.

I never say "nothing should be done". Who said that?

I said it is not rational to expect police who we agree cannot be trust to "serve people" as an organization to "serve people" by policing one of their own member who got captured not "serving people."

Your words is: we cannot trust police because they are bad, so when they are caught to be bad, we send them to police who we cannot trust.:blink:

Something should be done. Victims right, popular tribunal, communist revolution, abolish police.

[Luís Henrique]

Was it we Communists who reported the crime? No, it wasn't, it was the girl and her family. You know, the actual victim.

Perhaps this proves that the girl and her family are reformists and enemies of the working class. If they were True Communists [tm] they would have refrained from reporting the cop, thus bringing the socialist revolution just 7.34 millionth parts of a milimiter closer.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

But Jimmy you are relying on the capitalists to clean their own house. You want to pressure them to do "right thing." This is definition of reformism. No?

I am not interest.

Communists says: capitalist cares only of capital. It's true.

If we have some issue with the police, we don't go to police to police the police. Do we? Are we social democrat? Bourgeois lawyers? Community advisory board?

Whole basis of communism is that capitalist system cannot be made to work for human. That's why we need communism. So yes, only answer is indeed to abolish capitalism.

If workers decide they have confront some enemy like police, let it be done by themselves. It's basis of real kind of revolution.

Cop should be submit to popular tribunal in the street of his town.

Sorry, but this sounds extremely ridiculous, particularly coming from someone who has just recently supported an antisemitic court ruling in Germany.

Luís Henrique

[Ocean Seal]

But Jimmy you are relying on the capitalists to clean their own house. You want to pressure them to do "right thing." This is definition of reformism. No?

By this basic premise we should assume that the capitalists cannot even deal with the most basic of their problems. I mean I'm pretty sure that until the revolution comes we should pressure them to prosecute rapists and murderers.

[shinjuku dori]

Perhaps this proves that the girl and her family are reformists and enemies of the working class. If they were True Communists [tm] they would have refrained from reporting the cop, thus bringing the socialist revolution just 7.34 millionth parts of a milimiter closer.

More "other words". Who can say anything to this girl? She can do as she will. I don't expect her to be communist or act like communist.

I do expect you to.

I do not expect "communist" to join law and order crowd, which is traditional haunt of the far right world wide.

You want to know how possible is "justice" under bourgeois legal system? Holocaust was legal under that same system.

[shinjuku dori]

By this basic premise we should assume that the capitalists cannot even deal with the most basic of their problems.

And of course that is true. You can see worldwide crisis since 2008.

And "problem cop" is only really problem of being captured. Police job is to inflict terror on daily basis.


I mean I'm pretty sure that until the revolution comes we should pressure them to prosecute rapists and murderers.

How do we say capitalism must be abolished, there is no justice in capitalism. And then same paragraph we say: put the enemies of justice in charge of bringing justice? It doesn't rationalize. If justice is possible in capitalism, why we oppose it? If capitalism can solve human problem it's not capitalism.

[shinjuku dori]

Sorry, but this sounds extremely ridiculous, particularly coming from someone who has just recently supported an antisemitic court ruling in Germany.

Luís Henrique

Do not accuse of me anti-semitism you police loving dog.

[Le Libérer]

Book O'Dead You obvious knew your use of the word "pussy" was offensive or you wouldnt have asked to be excused for using it. I'm tempted to give you an infraction for it right now because its use was to be provocative. Consider this a verbal warning but expect otherwise if you keep it up.

Also I changed the name of the thread.


Edit: Thank you shinjuku dori for pointing out I had confused the OP name. Its corrected now.

[Book O'Dead]

What, did they get some preschooler to change the title?

[Tim Finnegan]

Comrade, putting cop through same kind of capitalist justice system he belongs to is some kind of Abrahamic retribution style of "justice." It's kind of "eye for eye" revenge.
It'll stop him raping anyone for a bit, which is not to be sniffed at.

[shinjuku dori]

shinjuku dori You obvious knew your use of the word "pussy" was offensive or you wouldnt have asked to be excused for using it. I'm tempted to give you an infraction for it right now because its use was to be provocative. Consider this a verbal warning but expect otherwise if you keep it up.

Also I changed the name of the thread.

What? I did not use this word "pussy"!! Please check again!

[shinjuku dori]

It'll stop him raping anyone for a bit, which is not to be sniffed at.

So would execution. Castration. You want to ask Obama to do that for you?

Are you sure? Cop rape all the time. Few go to jail. Cop rape continue.

Promoter of capitalist court system! Noble male defender of small woman! Communist all!

[Jimmie Higgins]

But Jimmy you are relying on the capitalists to clean their own house. You want to pressure them to do "right thing." This is definition of reformism. No?NO. That's the whole point, in the US cops REGULARLY beat harass and even kill people and they are given a week paid vacation while the media covers the cop's story of a mysterious gun in the hand of the murdered kid that "hasn't yet been found".

In the RARE cases where there is enough public attention to a case or when people make a stink about it, it's a win for our side if the cops are NOT ALLOWED to take extra-legal action.

It's reformist IF you think that the system can deal with it (maybe with some minor adjustments) - IF you argue that it's just some "bad apples".

If, however, you think the whole system is rotten - rather than try and explain to people why it's so bad (1/2 in the US just not believing that cops can do wrong and the other 1/2 already know it from their own lives and so what's new?) jumping on the exceptions to the rule, jumping on the times when people aren't just demoralized but are angry and want to do something, could POTENTIALLY help lay the groundwork for a more sustained and radicalizing movement.


Communists says: capitalist cares only of capital. It's true.Yes and no. How do they maintain that power, how do they convince us that their system is the only way. They do a lot of things from direct repression like police to indirect things like building hegemonic "common sense" ideas about the world.

The police - and the sense that they are untouchable - are both direct and indirect forms of class control. By actually FORCING the state to hold them accountable - or putting the state in the position where they fear trying to sweep something under the rug - helps destroy both the idea that cops are always right and that they are untouchable.


If we have some issue with the police, we don't go to police to police the police. Do we? Are we social democrat? Bourgeois lawyers? Community advisory board?Yes, ultimately, short of a revolution, popular patrols OF the police by workers in communities targeted for repression would be fantastic. The Black Panther Party and CopWatch are small examples of what this might begin to look like. I think Egypt is a better example where people barricaded their neighborhoods and set up check-points to keep reactionaries and cops out. Ultimately, in a time of revolution a worker's patrol against cops and fascists would probably be part of duel-power in communities.


Whole basis of communism is that capitalist system cannot be made to work for human. That's why we need communism. So yes, only answer is indeed to abolish capitalism. How do you get there? Do you just tell people how pure your ideas are and then wait for them to follow? Building movements, challenging present conditions, this is how workers can learn how to lead themselves and express their own politics and desires...


If workers decide they have confront some enemy like police, let it be done by themselves. It's basis of real kind of revolution.Ok, well where is it? Most people in my town hate the police - where's the revolutionary movement? The Black Panther's didn't patrol the cops because they pulled their ideas out of their ass - there had been 10 years of ups and downs and developments in a Black Civil Rights movement, several large urban riots and countless legal challenges. The BPP didn't read some radical things and just get radical ideas about how to fight the police brutality, they turned to radical ideas because they wanted to figure out an effective way to fight the police. In other words, action leads to consciousness which then informs more action. Consciousness doesn't create action by itself. Until there is a high level of class consciousness and organization, those of us who've come to radical conclusions about society will have to engage in whatever opportunities present themselves to try and help move things forward. That means there might be things with modest beginings - but the civil rights movement began as a middle class movement for better college acess and things like that and eventually helped create conditions for a more radical black working class struggle in the north.


Cop should be submit to popular tribunal in the street of his town.Why not have the democratic representatives of the neighborhood Soviet handle it? Oh right.

[Tim Finnegan]

So would execution. Castration. You want to ask Obama to do that for you?

Are you sure? Cop rape all the time. Few go to jail. Cop rape continue.

Promoter of capitalist court system! Noble male defender of small woman! Communist all!
I'm not saying that we should look to the judicial system for a structural solution. I'm just saying that if the judicial systems manage to at least temporarily keep his hands outside of unwilling women's genitals, that isn't a bad thing.

[shinjuku dori]

the whole system is rotten

Exactly. So why you want to use it?

[shinjuku dori]

I'm not saying that we should look to the judicial system for a structural solution. I'm just saying that if the judicial system manage to at least temporarily keep his hands outside of an unwilling woman's genitals, that isn't a bad thing.

Cutting off his head would also serve this purpose. Are you okay with it?

[shinjuku dori]

How do you get there? Do you just tell people how pure your ideas are and then wait for them to follow?

Communist is not a kind of "consultant" for capitalism. We are not mechanic. We are prophet, explain everything, everything "why", explain how. Break the lies. You are helping the lies that there is some justice possible in this system.


Building movements, challenging present conditions, this is how workers can learn how to lead themselves and express their own politics and desires...

This is how social democracy has trapped active workers into reformist quest for hundred years more.

[Le Libérer]

What, did they get some preschooler to change the title?

Excuse me?

[shinjuku dori]

Ok, well where is it?

It's not up to communist to create, but to identify and assist. We can not make revolution. That outburst comes alone. It's all through history. Who made Egypt? Who made Hungary? No one.

We got to say: this is the only way. Any other way will be doom. And so, even if they try other way, and it fails. They will see we were correct.

[Le Libérer]

What? I did not use this word "pussy"!! Please check again!

Sorry, shinjuku dori, It was the op, Ive corrected it now.

[Book O'Dead]

Sorry, shinjuku dori, It was the op, Ive corrected it now.

Whoever change the title should correct their misspelling.

[shinjuku dori]

Sorry, shinjuku dori, It was the op, Ive corrected it now.

Thank you so much! I don't even really know this word. Usually in Japan we don't say that kind of explicit word. We say kind of "it" or "that". :blushing:

[Tim Finnegan]

Cutting off his head would also serve this purpose. Are you okay with it?
Is that a likely outcome?

[shinjuku dori]

It's America, so yes.

[shinjuku dori]

Can you explain what is the actual kind of "social job" of police so that I can see if you are actually communist?

[Tim Finnegan]

It's America, so yes.
I think you may be over-stating it slightly.


Can you explain what is the actual kind of "social job" of police so that I can see if you are actually communist?
(Who is this addressed to?)

[shinjuku dori]

America kills everyone. Even themselves. They cannot stop killing since Columbus arrive until now.

[Tim Finnegan]

...Pardon?

[shinjuku dori]

It's true. Everyone kills in America. It's not peaceful land. It's land of murder. :bored:

[Jimmie Higgins]

It's true. Everyone kills in America. It's not peaceful land. It's land of murder. :bored:Murder rates in the US and Europe are about the same. What the US does have is a racist system of control called the "war on crime" where crime is sensationalized in order to allow the police and courts to have a free hand in locking people up and harassing them.

Murder rates in the US are something like 4.5% per 100,000 and more or less the same in many parts of Europe - the US has 7 million people in jail - or 743 adults incarcerated per 100,000 population.

It's a huge population and we can't "wait for the revolution" to tackle it. In fact taking on the "war on crime/drugs" would probably be like taking on Jim-Crow and require a movement of a greater scale and greater level of class politics.

In the US we can't ignore the prison situation and fight for liberation at the same time - both are dependant on eachother - we can't get rid of the prison system without taking on capitalism, but we won't be able to take on capitalism if the repressive and racist system is intact. So that means starting where we can for right now and if that means protests to get the cop Mehserle arrested for shooting Oscar Grant, then that's a place to start.

[shinjuku dori]

So there can be justice in capitalism after all, as long as we pressure capitalists and their security bodies to do the right thing. So why we need revolution? Let's pressure them info abolishing themselves :blink:

[Jimmie Higgins]

So there can be justice in capitalism after all, as long as we pressure capitalists and their security bodies to do the right thing. So why we need revolution? Let's pressure them info abolishing themselves :blink:Yeah and a boat becomes a submarine if you sink it. The whole premise of my argument is that the system doesn't "work". If we could rely on the system, then why go to coalition meetings, why organize, why do anything.

True not everyone getting involved with these kinds of anti-police brutality actions will be without illusions in the system - but that's where things are at. The ruling ideas are the ideas of our rulers and so when people act beyond the confines of these ideas - even if not fully consiously or clearly at first - this is a precondition for people beginning to form independent politics. to realize that they can't rely on the system for justice, but actually have to make their own demands - such as killer cops shouldn't go free, rapist cops shouldn't be allowed power over people.

[shinjuku dori]

The system doesn't work, so let's use this broken system to fix problems caused by broken system?

Maybe I am lost something from language difference. I cannot understand how this is rational.:blink:

[shinjuku dori]

Can I ask you: what do you think about when like Philippines previous government proclaimed they would do their own investigation of accusations that were corrupting the voting? It was kind of joke, right? How could anyone expect corrupt government to find out if it was corrupt? Who could trust that?

So, aren't you saying the same thing here. But replace one with other?

I am really shocked but what you are saying. I saw communist logo here. I didn't know I was on Kautsky club.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

shinjuku dori, what would you do with a cop who molested a girl? From what I'm reading, you'd do nothing because we don't have a communist society yet. You should have to sit down with the victim and tell her that.

[Art Vandelay]

I saw communist logo here. I didn't know I was on Kautsky club.

Boom! Tendency Jab.

[Luís Henrique]

It's true. Everyone kills in America. It's not peaceful land. It's land of murder. :bored:

Your national chauvinism is showing, man.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Do not accuse of me anti-semitism you police loving dog.

Listen here, wise guy.

First, I didn't accuse you of antisemitism. If you read my post, I accused you of supporting a court ruling that is, quite obviously, antisemitic (or Islamophobic). In that precise case, you had absolutely no problems in supporting a bourgeois ruling by a bourgeois court. Here is what you said about it:


It's law against child abuse. Good law, we support for any reason.

So, in that case, it is a good law and we should support it, regardless of the fact that it is bourgeois and issued by a bourgeois State.

But we cannot argue that a cop who abused a child should be sentenced; that would be support for the bourgeois State. Here is what you say to those who voice such opinion:


I don't throw my support behind capitalist justice.

Evidently, your ideas about whether we should or should not support "the system" change quite quickly. You support a court ruling by a capitalist State, but you condemn those demanding punishment for an abusive cop because that would be "throwing support behind capitalist justice". I suppose supporting a court ruling in Germany isn't "throwing support behind capitalist justice"? How? Isn't a German court ruling an act of the German judicial system, or isn't Germany a capitalist State, or what?

And you have the straight face to call me a "police loving dog" while opposing punishment for a cop?

Luís Henrique

[Le Libérer]

Do not accuse of me anti-semitism you police loving dog.

Shinjuku dori, you are crossing the line this time. Cool down and do not talk to your fellow debaters like this or you will be getting an infraction after all.

[shinjuku dori]

shinjuku dori, what would you do with a cop who molested a girl? From what I'm reading, you'd do nothing because we don't have a communist society yet. You should have to sit down with the victim and tell her that.

I wouldn't do anything. I am one guy. I am also not victim counselor. Or police. Or consultant to judge to decide how long to trap someone in prison.

What I am suggesting is that this happened because of what are police in society. Since we know what they are, and our job to explain that to others, we shouldn't pretend these police we hate can clean their own house when they do something we hate.

The police will not clean their own house. At most they my sweep something under a rug or maybe empty one garbage can.

Since they won't do it anyway, it's not our position to pretend they will. We want people to see that it's impossible in this system. So we argue for something, which may seem impossible, but is in fact the only real possibility for human life: communism.

We got to say: this is terrible. This is caused by unjust system of relations. It cannot be undone, and it of course, it will happen again. So only solution is to abolish the system, the police.

Also, I do not have Abrahamic concept of revenge as justice. I do not come from Christian nation of West.

I do not think post action "punishment" will have any effect on something that already happened, eye for eye. This woman is already raped. I am most concerned with helping her to recover, and especially to prevent future possibilities of this thing. I do not want to rape man to "equal the field". In that case, I would suggest to kill him, and then I would be on the same stage as the far right.

[shinjuku dori]

Shinjuku dori, you are crossing the line this time. Cool down and do not talk to your fellow debaters like this or you will be getting an infraction after all.

But this dog accused me of anti-semitism! It cannot be tolerated my friend.

[shinjuku dori]

Your national chauvinism is showing, man.

Luís Henrique

It's not nationalism but reality. Compare rate of murder.

It is not only the country I live which does not have such murderous populace, but also many other country, including Korea and China which is traditional "national nemesis". You do not understand from there. In Japan, nationalist is against Korea and China. Not America.

[shinjuku dori]

Louis: Law against male genital mutilation can ban practice and thus prevent from happening. Of course preventing child abuse is good, how we can get it. Preventing rape is also good, satisfying. The only way to prevent police to do this kind of thing is to abolish police.

[Luís Henrique]

But this dog accused me of anti-semitism! It cannot be tolerated my friend.

Listen, maybe "dog" is a term of endearment in Japan, but it is a heavy insult in Brazil. I have done nothing to you that warrants such a treatment from your part, and I didn't attack you personally. I didn't call you an antisemite, I said you supported a ruling (which you cannot deny) that is clearly antisemitic (which you can of course dispute, but as long as I am convinced that this is what it is there is no reason for me to take it back).

Your behaviour here seems erratic and trollish, and you have been making some generalisations (about Americans, about Swedes) that would probably have already resulted in administrative action if people weren't willing to take into consideration linguistic and cultural issues. But do not abuse that. Calm down and behave decently. A proper apology for the namecalling would be a good start.

Luís Henrique

[shinjuku dori]

Where do you get your sense of entitlement?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

What I am suggesting is that this happened because of what are police in society. Since we know what they are, and our job to explain that to others, we shouldn't pretend these police we hate can clean their own house when they do something we hate.
Of course all of this stems from the role of police in bourgeois society, and that can't be resolved without a revolution. That doesn't mean we just shrug our shoulders when a member of the police does something like this.

[shinjuku dori]

If you think the police can solve the problem, then your argument that the police are the problem falls. No wonder you have no follower.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I am most concerned with helping her to recover, and especially to prevent future possibilities of this thing.
And how do we prevent future occurrences? By doing nothing, as you suggest? And what if part of her recovery is to see her molester punished?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

If you think the police can solve the problem, then your argument that the police are the problem falls. No wonder you have no follower.
Since English isn't your first language, I'll be charitable and assume you simply misunderstood what I wrote.

The police are part of the problem. Only a revolution can solve the problem. Until there is a revolution, you seem to believe that if police abuse people, we should just shrug our shoulders.

You support the bourgeois legal system in Germany when it bans circumcision, but you would condemn a bourgeois legal system if it punishes a cop who molested a young woman?

[shinjuku dori]

What if part is to see him executed? That's good for you. Irish gangster vigilante loves this thing. They promote: we are even better police than English! We kill criminal without trial.

Irish nationalist is same left or right,

[shinjuku dori]

Until there is a revolution, you seem to believe that if police abuse people, we should just shrug our shoulders.

If choice is:

Number 1. Promote capitalist legal system which is foundation of bourgeois society as avenue of justice. Make nonsense argument that police are unjust, and so when they are found to do unjust things as individuals, they must be sent to unjust police to have justice :blink:

Number 2. Be communist and tell the truth that justice cannot exist inside of this system, that it can only exist after it is abolished.

Which one is honest? Which one is more likely to convince someone?

Depending if you want to fix capitalism, or abolish it.


You support the bourgeois legal system in Germany when it bans circumcision, but you would condemn a bourgeois legal system if it punishes a cop who molested a young woman?

Asked and answered boregard.

Please click me http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2473691&postcount=65

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

What if part is to see him executed? That's good for you. Irish gangster vigilante loves this thing.
You called someone else a dog. Now you're calling me a gangster. I think your stay on this board will be a short one.

[Luís Henrique]

What if part is to see him executed? That's good for you. Irish gangster vigilante loves this thing. They promote: we are even better police than English! We kill criminal without trial.

Irish nationalist is same left or right,

That again was unwarranted. You are managing to quickly alienate people here. Our patience is not unlimited.

Luís Henrique

[The Jay]

This is why I support police having all minimum sentences and fines doubled for their transgressions. Until the police force is abolished they should not even be able to think about abuse, though they will still try.

[MarxSchmarx]

Listen, maybe "dog" is a term of endearment in Japan


For what it's worth, I can tell you it is not. The rough equivalent of the English epiteth "loser" is "defeated dog" and a colloquialism for futility is "the howl of a defeated dog". "Stray dog" is also a euphemism for a rogue.

[shinjuku dori]

Irish nationalist is common known to be gangster. I do not care if they have red flag or talk of "national liberating". It is common for libertine communist to consider them kind of yellow mafia.

[Robocommie]

You called someone else a dog. Now you're calling me a gangster. I think your stay on this board will be a short one.

Just really set on making friends in general.

[shinjuku dori]

I got two friend with genuine communist. I don't need social democratic friend. If so, I better go to JCP meeting.

[Robocommie]

I got two friend with genuine communist. I don't need social democratic friend. If so, I better go to JCP meeting.

Yeah well, you and your two genuine communist friends have fun abolishing professional sports and whatever else it is you have a personal distaste for. You're certainly not any use for anything constructive.

[Jimmie Higgins]

shinjuku dori, there are two fundamental things that I think your arguments on this issue are off-point on. One is the special role of Police as street-enforces and an important line of defense for the system. The second is the role of bourgeois rights in society.

1. The capitalist system has an ideological interest in maintaining the idea that cops are infallible and that they are always right. Challenging this actually hurts the institution while emboldening people in the population to not accept common repression and inevitable and unavoidable. This challenge might come as a riot or a movement or have more liberal undertones or more radical, but it's a starting point to challenging the police system out of which more radical movements can develop and emerge.

2. There are lots of capitalist institutions in society and in various way and in various levels, they help bolster the system: this ranges from public institutions like education and health to repressive institutions like the police and courts. While being bourgeois institutions they also bare the mark of past class struggles and in many ways the "rights" that actually do go to regular people are the result of victories from past class struggles. If all institutions and all bourgeois rights are equal, then a pro-capitalist system institution like public education is the same segregated and racist as it is integrated. Of course these legacies of struggle are all obviously from failed movements and partial reforms since we still live in capitalism, but they do have an impact on the balance of class forces and our ability as workers to fight back. Fighting against racism in a post-Jim Crow world has much more potential for white and black solidarity on a class basis/fighting class struggle when immigrants are stripped of rights and scapegoated and made a second-class group of workers is much more difficult. So these rights while obviously inadaquate and part of the capitalist system, aren't totally irrelevant to class struggle.



Number 1. Promote capitalist legal system which is foundation of bourgeois society as avenue of justice. Make nonsense argument that police are unjust, and so when they are found to do unjust things as individuals, they must be sent to unjust police to have justice :blink:Which is more in the interests of the bourgeois (during periods of relatively low class struggle in a society): a police force which people know can do what they want and will beat you if you don't comply or one which grudgingly must apply more rights in regards to the population? IS it really "promoting" the capitalist (in)justice system to try and prevent them from acting above the law? If it REINFORCES the system, why the fuck is it nearly impossible to convict cops?!!

Number 2. Be communist and tell the truth that justice cannot exist inside of this system, that it can only exist after it is abolished.

Which one is honest? Which one is more likely to convince someone? It's not honest to tell people to "wait for the revolution" because waiting for the "perfect conditions" doesn't help the class acquire it's own organization and experience and so on and means that the revolution will never happen. You are essentially arguing that the way forward for the working class is just to listen to what communists tell them and that they'll believe it by virtue of it's truthfulness. Why? Why should they believe you? Why should they believe that the cops are systemically brutal if no once challenges police brutality in the first place?

The system is helped by the sense that what cops do they do out of necessity and are "professionals" as well as on the invisibility and helplessness of the victims (who can then be portrayed as "probably up to no good" when they got stopped or shot by cops). Movements against police brutality can break through this barrier and actually give the victims a voice and show that the people being harassed by cops are not "super-criminals" and "sociopaths" but regular people going to work or unemployed or in school or whatnot.


Depending if you want to fix capitalism, or abolish it.You've created false options here. Movements against police brutality - even in modest and politically immature liberal forms - are a precondition to taking on the system of criminal justice. By definition people protesting inaction by the courts in prosecuting brutal cops are protesting because they DON'T think the system on it's own will handle the problem of violence and brutality. Most participants may initially have liberal illusions, many of the black church and community organizations often involved in these struggles in the US have liberal politics. But that's the state of politics in the general population in many capitalist countries. But by not just "letting the courts decide" and going out on the streets, people are beginning to challenge these liberal ideas through their own actions. This can then lead to more radical formations as people begin to learn from their own experience that the liberal church-groups and community organizations have no answers or real large-scale strategy. Radicals and revolutionary arguments can play a part in this process, but they don't mean anything unless people are already moving out to the streets to riot or protest.

[Luís Henrique]

You called someone else a dog. Now you're calling me a gangster. I think your stay on this board will be a short one.

Your crystal ball seems to be working quite fine, should I say.

Luís Henrique