North Korea

[elijahcraig]

I thought this was an interesting post:


A good article about people have been to N. Korea. They note
that the notions of isolationism etc in N. Korea "dissolved" upon
their visit. Free health care, free housing, free education including
university education, no death penalty, etc.

"On September 29th, 2003 four lawyers from the National Lawyers Guild of the United States, Peter Erlinder, Professor of Law at the William Mitchell School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota, Neil Berman, Attorney in Boston, Massachusetts and Eric Sirotkin and Jennie Lusk, Attorneys in Albuquerque, New Mexico as well as a member of the American Association of Jurists, Christopher Black, Barrister in Toronto, Canada, traveled to North Korea. [...]

"We came to North Korea in order to increase bonds between lawyers in North Korea and the west, as well as to increase understanding between the peoples of North America and North Korea in order to reduce the risk of war between the DPRK and the United States of America."

Read the rest here:
http://www.korea-is-one.org/articles/lawyers.htm

Particularly interesting:

"Much is written about the alleged starvation, even referred to as intentional, of the North Korean people by their government. On our trips both North and South in the country we covered round trip over 500 kilometers. During that time we had the opportunity to see agricultural communities and small towns. We noticed that the people on the whole looked well dressed and active. We saw no one who looked malnourished or emaciated and our observations were confirmed by many of the foreigners we met who had dealings around the country. The DPRK has very little areable land and we saw crops being harvested everywhere it was possible to grow them. It appears every square inch of arable land is cultivated, and on the roofs of their country cottages people had planted vines of what looked like melons or pumpkin. The people we passed on the road and in towns we passed through all looked relaxed, children went to school or played, women sat side saddle on bikes as their husbands pedaled, no one seemed dispirited or broken.

"We noted that this was not the Orwellian society George Bush and much of the media is trying to portray. The countryside appeared to us to be more typical of the poorer part of Europe, for example rural Greece, or Spain or Portugal. Three members of the delegation who had experience in Africa noted that the country appeared much more prosperous that most places they had been in Africa. This was confirmed by the Congolese visitors we met, who indicated that people in many parts of the Congo would love to have the standard of living apparent in North Korea. The landscape, with its mountains in the background, and ravines, its trees, its rivers and arid parts, and houses with white walled, ochre tiled roofs was similar to southern parts of Europe.

"Another surprise was the absence of a police presence in the country. We never saw a single policeman with a gun or even a club. The only police we saw were police officers, mainly women, directing traffic at certain intersections. There were occasional guard stations along the road down south as we approached the DMZ. We saw soldiers in many places, usually helping harvest crops or working in the fields or helping on a construction site. But we rarely saw a soldier armed. The contrast between North Korea and its lack of policemen and North America in which armed police in bulletproof vests are commonplace was more than striking - it was startling. If the presence or absence of armed policemen is a criterion for a free society then this speaks volumes about the nature of the two societies."

Even more interesting:

"We were struck by the design of the DPRK criminal justice system. We even found in a bookstore the Criminal Procedures Act of the DPRK in English. Several principles seem quite progressive and reflect more of restorative justice, than retributive justice. The prime objective of the criminal justice system is rehabilitation, not punishment, or setting an example. There is an element of the latter as there are jail terms for crimes but this is not the major thrust of their system. In fact, they have codified a process by which those affected by the decision or the conduct of the accused have a real role in the process and those that contributed to the delinquent act or were involved in educating the person (i.e. a parent or friend) have to be available in the process to receive a ?lecture? from the court. Penalties might include submitting the accused to ?social? or ?public education.? Those arrested are required to have their families notified within 48 hours. A defence counsel is to be provided to represent the rights of the accused.

"We were told that there was no death penalty and that the maximum penalty for any crime is 12 years, with the objective being to try to determine why the person committed the crime and to help that person become a productive member of society. A lack of a death penalty was seen by the delegation as a sign of a civilized nation. There appear to be labour camps where people work out their sentences. No effort was made to hide the presence of these camps. The U.S. media?s recent reports on the poor conditions, high mortality rate and lack of proper care or food, in the camps requires further investigation. In light of the false and exaggerated claims about starvation in the country in general, these reports must be viewed with a grain of salt. We will ask to visit these camps on future delegations."

Free education:

"As in Cuba and the former USSR, education is free up to Ph.D level. University students are paid a small stipend. Universities and specialty colleges have been established for all regions of the country and entry is by competitive examination. Any student can apply to go to any university or college as long as they pass the entrance examination. After the completion of their education DPRK tries to place the students in the field in which they are trained. Apparently the country has the capacity to enroll between 40 and 60% of the high school students in university at this time."

Free Health Care

"Again as in Canada, Cuba, much of Europe and the former USSR, health care is completely free of charge. Moreover, doctors make house calls in rural areas. Every city has a main hospital and there are specialty hospitals in the larger towns. The system is then composed of regional, district and local clinics all staffed by doctors and nurses so that no one in the country is without medical care. However, in light of embargos there is a shortage of medical supplies. Further, doctor visits each village or city district to ensure preventive techniques are used and that people are doing their best to keep fit. There is an on-going keep fit program in place in the country in which the population has to maintain a certain level of fitness appropriate for age categories."

"The floods and drought periods caused disruption of the food supply and caused malnutrition but this has been overcome and the population generally appeared in good condition. Contrary to claims that the disabled are hidden away by the secret regime, we observed disabled people in public who needed canes or had amputated limbs. Further, a woman with a developmental disability was among the friendly picnickers we encountered. According to the North Koreans, parents of children born with chronic conditions receive an extra stipend for their care at home, so long as they are able to stay in the home."

Free Housing:

"Housing is also free and consists either of fairly modern high rises or traditional cottage style houses with brick walls and tile roofs. While the high rises looked sometimes in need of paint or plaster, they looked otherwise well kept and clean. On an evening drive through Pyongyang one of our delegation observed beauty and barber shops on the ground floor of an apartment building. We observed work crews working on refinishing buildings within Pyongyang. While the homes lack many modern conveniences we saw TV antennae attached to many of them. Housing is allotted by local peoples? committees in each area who decide who in the area gets which accommodation taking into account various family needs and availability. Young people who are single and not away at school generally live with their parents until marriage at which time they are provided free accommodation."

[Bolshevika]

That is an extremely good post!

I used to be skeptical about DPRK, and used to buy the garbage that all of the encounters Ameircans had in DPRK is positive because Kim Jong Il somehow takes all the impoverished North Koreans and shoves them under a rug. It is George W. Bush propaganda network, telling anti-Jong-Il , anti-Saddam, anti-Castro and anti-Syrian lies.

The new capitalist China is probably far more authoritarian and policing than the North Korean government.

[Loknar]

Nice article elijahcraig


I however am skeptical of North Korea. I don’t know what to believe, why do the Chinese have a problem with North Koreans crossing the border into Manchuria? Was the tour provided by the government?

There are as many good stories as there are gruesome stories about north Korea, who knows for sure what is fact and what is fiction?

In any event, I would like to go and see as much of the country as possible, to see things for my saelf and not read 2nd hand writing.

[Nobody]

I agree with Loknar, the only way to really see what is going on there is to go our selves. I have seen some pictures of DPRK, at the ISF, provide by Chairman Mao. It seems amazingly modern for such an "isolated" country.

If what I read is true, I hope Kim Jong-il keeps up the good work, and defeats the American invader, if they choose that path.

But if things are as good as it sounds, the people will defenitly not let that happen.

[elijahcraig]

I agree, Loknar; I can never be sure unless I actually went there.

[Hoppe]

My god, and you think you won't get a state approved guide if you visit this country?

[Urban Rubble]

I wonder how much involvement the DPRK government had inthis trip. If there was any at all I'd say we can throw out the whole article. If there wasn't then that was very encouraging. I hope this was the real state of the DPRK and not a government sanitized display.

Like someone else said, for every story like this there are hundreds of others that paint a more bleak picture.

Anyway, nice article, very encouraging.

[Nobody]

Just noticed something


"We were struck by the design of the DPRK criminal justice system. We even found in a bookstore the Criminal Procedures Act of the DPRK in English. Several principles seem quite progressive and reflect more of restorative justice, than retributive justice. The prime objective of the criminal justice system is rehabilitation, not punishment, or setting an example.

Seems a tad convient.

[Hoppe]

And the gulags of DPRK are capitalist propaganda, aren&#39;t they? Locking up a whole family when one person questions the state surely sets an example. <_<

[redstar2000]

There appear to be labour camps where people work out their sentences. No effort was made to hide the presence of these camps. The U.S. media&#39;s recent reports on the poor conditions, high mortality rate and lack of proper care or food, in the camps requires further investigation.

Something rather easy to do if the North Koreans wished to put the lie to the bourgeois media. There are any number of NGOs and independent left groups that could be invited to inspect the labor camps.

Amnesty International, Doctors Without Borders, etc. could determine the real situation there in a few weeks by visiting a number of camps, making videos, examining prisoners, etc. (Needless to add, that applies to many American gulags as well.)

People who visit Cuba (for example) are free to move around the country and speak at length with ordinary Cubans...unless these lawyers speak fluent Korean and were similarly unconstrained in their tour, I view their report with considerable skepticism.

Perhaps the reason there are so few visible police lies in the apparent fact that people have been conditioned to "worship" their "beloved leader" in a semi-religious fashion.

I don&#39;t imagine police were a common sight in Egypt&#39;s "Old Kingdom" or the France of the "Sun King".

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Saint-Just]

The Korean IT revolution started in 1990. Now there is a large network of computers across the DPRK aiding studies and work. Many databases have been created to give access to much information, and to give access to professional data and to the libraries across the DPRK. They are also making their own software:

&#39;Other remarkable programs were “Manpung-ho” (Lake Manpung) version 2, a land adjustment design program; “Supung”, a supporting program for production planning hydroelectric power plants; “Tamsaek-1” (search), a supporting program for crude oil-probing projects. These programs were developed in order to solve urgent problems, which now confront the construction of the DPRK’s socialist economy.&#39; ~An IT software exhibition in Korea.

The DPRK has also cloned rabbits, launched satellites, created an ultrasound motor and had many advances in medicine and in agricultural sciences. They are also constructing their own cars in Korea with help Hyundai and Fiat.

In the 1970s the DPRK was more economically advanced than South Korea, however by the 90s this situation had reversed.

Here are some pictures I did not include on ISF:

Kim Jong Il:

http://www.dprktime.com/pic/korea.jpg

Housing in DPRK:

http://www.travel-images.com/korean4.jpg

http://www.travel-images.com/korean107.jpg

http://www.travel-images.com/korean18.jpg

[Hoppe]

So Chairman Mao, do they also have unlimited access to the Internet?

Very nice that they have cloned rabbits but I suppose we can just wait for the next famine where thet need western help.

[Anti-Fascist]

A brilliant article.

[Loknar]

.
Chairman Mao, that&#39;s quite fascinating.


I thought North Koreas satellite failed to enter orbit. I recall reading a BBC article stating that n the anniversary of North Koreas independence a rocket was launched but it failed to enter orbit, flew over Japan and landed in the Pacific.




In any event, North Korea is starting to embrace capitalism, it is a sign that they need economic growth badly.

[PolarisUSMC]

I read this a while ago, you might find it interesting as well.

I&#39;ve always considered myself as a kind of mini historian. I&#39;ve always been fascinated by the subject and I&#39;ve been studying it since I was around 5. Many time periods and situations through out history have been more interesting then others to me. One of those subjects is atrocities, mass torture, and genocide. I don&#39;t find these things interesting because I like them, I find them interesting because they make me sick to my stomach. I&#39;ve just always wanted to know what could drive men to do such evil things. Not only that but large groups of men. What makes a group of 1,000 or more people think that raping, looting, pillaging, and mass murdering is OK? What can drive anyone to do such things? There are many reasons and answers, all of them insane, but I still just couldn&#39;t understand what could drive people to do it, and for so long as well. Sadly, the 20th century has seen the worst of this. I&#39;ve read books and first hand accounts of the things that went on during the holocaust. The tales of brutal oppression, "medical experiments" conducted on prisoners, the gas chambers, and everything else are enough to make you go insane. The scary thing is those atrocities weren&#39;t the worst of the century. The raping of Nanking committed by Japanese troops in WW2 was more horrible upon the people it happened to. Thousands of women were raped, butchered, and hung on display all over the city. Families were killed in front of each other and men went through the worst kind of torture you can imagine. The Soviet gulags and other Communist atrocities were far far worse. People were subjected to things under Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao that were so disgusting it will give you nightmares for weeks just reading about them. The saddest thing of all is atrocities like this aren&#39;t a part of the past, they are continuing every day. Saddam Hussein continued practices like this through out his reign. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi&#39;s had to live through the worst things human beings can do. Thankfully those things have stopped now that Saddam is out of power. However the worst case of oppression, mass torture, and pure evil the human race has ever seen is still going on today. It is happening in North Korea.

I know it might sound like an exaggeration or that I&#39;m overplaying the situation by saying what is going on in North Korea is the worst thing man kind has ever seen but I&#39;m not. Studying the history of human cruelty from the Romans, to the dark ages, to the holocaust, to the Japanese in WW2, to the communists, to Saddam I have never heard tales and instances of pure evil as North Korea. The stories are truly disgusting. I&#39;ve heard many people say that calling North Korea or Kim Jong IL evil is wrong, that it&#39;s over playing the situation. They say that he and the country are just " different and misunderstood" and when people like George W Bush call them evil they are just being arrogant. If those people or the majority of the world truly knew what was going on in this country I think they would think differently. It&#39;s become so common place these days in first world countries to hear the words torture, genocide, atrocity, oppression, and others that people don&#39;t really understand the impact of those actions. Most of us have grown up in a life of freedom that we think the rest of the world acts the same way as us. We don&#39;t really understand what it&#39;s like to live under an oppressive and totally evil regime where your freedoms are taken away. It&#39;s almost incompressible to us and because of this we don&#39;t really know what is going on in North Korea. I have read many of the stories of things that have and are going on there and I will attempt to share them with you. Just remember that the following tales are true and are only the tip of the iceberg. There are probably even worse things going on there that hasn&#39;t been documented yet. I will try to write the best that I can and in detail so you can truly understand the horrors and human suffering. I apologize if some parts are short as just thinking about this subject drains me and always makes me cry. I just can&#39;t understand how human beings can do this.

Most of these accounts are from Ahn Myong Chol a guard that was stationed at the biggest political prison camp in the country. He was stationed there in the late eighties and escaped North Korea some time in the mid nineties. He witnessed many of the following tales first hand and drew crude sketches to show what he saw. I found only one web site that had his sketches online and they are of low quality. I apologize for that.

The prison camps in North Korea are family camps. Men, women, and children of all ages are imprisoned there. You can be totally innocent of any crime and still wind up in the camps for life. People are put there for questioning Kim IL Sung&#39;s and now Kim Jong IL&#39;s regime. If you make any claim that disputes the "socialist paradise" Kim IL Sung and Kim Jong IL have created for the people of North Korea you will be sent to these camps. Since these claims are "unpure" and threaten the socialist paradise the family members of the people who said them are locked up as well to ensure that the "family line of dissent" is destroyed. It usually goes to three generations. For example if one man makes a criticism of Kim Jong IL him, his wife, his children, and his parents are all rounded up and put in the camp. The camps are huge, North Korea has the biggest political prison camps in history. The biggest one tucked in the mountains in the north next to the border with China is bigger then Washington DC. They are tucked in the mountains so no plane can see them. Kim IL Sung and now Kim Jong IL both claim such prison camps do not exist and go to great lengths to hide them. In 1999 the CIA was able to take satellite photos of them and prove their existence. Kim Jong IL still denies their existence and any type of recording devices such as a tape recorder, camera, or video camera are not allowed anywhere in the northern part of the country. Just being caught in possesion of a camera can get you killed. Ahn Myong Chol was able to look at the satellite photos and show what each part of the facility was for. Here are some of the following tales he has given. Ahn described the experiences of the camp as far worse then the holocaust. He said that the Germans tried to design a way to kill as many Jews as fast as they could but the North Koreans designed ways to kill as many people as slowly and painfully as they could. He was right. On a side note there is estimated to be around 200,000 people in these camps. Thats one out of every two hundred people in the country.

Ahn was shocked when he first saw the cruelty of the camp. He was disgusted to see the cruelty that was happening there. He was strictly warned to never help or be friendly in anyway to any of the prisoners or he would be punished. Guards were instructed to shoot any prisoners attempting to escape. They were told that the guard who shoots the most escapees were to get a reward. This lead to many guards forcing prisoners, many of them women and children, to put their hands on the electrified barb wire fence. Many refused knowing what this would mean. If any of them refused the guards would beat them with the butt of their rifles until they complied. Ahn said he saw one instance when a guard repeatedly hit a 7 year old child in it&#39;s face with his gun in front of the child&#39;s mother until it&#39;s face was smashed. The child fell to the ground and died. When the mother ran over to hold the child the guard hit her as well with his gun. He ordered her to the fence and beat her until she got up and walked to the fence. Once she touched it the guard shot her and later claimed to his commanding officer that she was trying to escape. This was a common occurrence and happened so much that prizes were no longer given away for killing the most escapees.

Some of the guards were stationed there as part of their military training. This is the reason why Ahn was there. One day there were given a military exercise in a remote part of the camp. It was a wooded area with many fallen leaves. They were driven to the training in two trucks. One was covered but the one that the troops were in was not. When they got to the area Ahn noticed shovels lying around the area. They were given their training for around an hour or so then stopped. Once it was over they were ordered to go to the second trunk and unload it&#39;s contents. It was full of dead bodies. They were ordered to bury the bodies in this area. The area was used as a mass grave before which is why the shovels were lying around. Ahn said many of the bodies were fresh and that they had just been killed in the past day or so. He could see the facial expressions of the people very vividly, especially the children&#39;s. He said some of them were as young as 6. Most of the bodies were covered in bruises and cuts. Most of the women had bruises on their torso and legs, signifying rape. After the bodies were unloaded Ahn went to grab a shovel. He saw the handle of one sticking out of a pile of leaves. When he went to pick it up it was stuck in something. He uncovered the leaves to see what it was and was horrified by what he saw. The shovel was inside (shoved inside her vagina) of a young girl, probably around the age of 15. The body was only a couple of days old but maggots were feasting on it. He said he could see maggots inside of her eye sockets and inside of her stomach. He screamed and ran in the opposite direction.as he ran he fell and when he did he found even more bodies that were not buried. He started to scream even louder until his commanding officer came to him. He was ordered to quit and calm down. His commanding officer told him that he shouldn&#39;t be scared or feel bad of the corpses because they were only criminals against the state, they were less the human. He was ordered back to burying the bodies and was later punished for his cowardly actions. He first went to bury the corpse of the young women he found because he said it was too disgusting to not be buried. As he was burying the body he noticed that the girl has no cuts on her body, neck, or head. She had no gun shot wounds either, only bruises on her torso and leg. There were no bruises on her neck and the only dried up blood was around her vaginal area. This led to the conclusion that the girl was raped, then had the shovel jammed inside of her and then was left to bleed to death. She wasn&#39;t killed before hand. Ahn buried the body and returned back to his barracks.

Another thing the guards enjoyed to do was to let their attack dogs practice on the prisoners. Since children were the smaller ones the guards let the dogs attack them constantly. Sometimes the children survived, sometimes they didn&#39;t. The dogs were German Shepherds and were extremely vicious. Ahn recalled one instance in which a young boy was ordered to move supplies from one of the factories in the camp. When the young boy was holding large pieces of sheet metal two guards let their dogs loose on him. While the dogs were ripping the child open the guards started to laugh. Ahn asked why they were laughing and the guards said it was funny to see the young boy try to defend himself. As the child screamed in tremendous pain Ahn could see one dog rip open the boy&#39;s neck. Blood started to stream out and finally the boy stopped moving and died. The guards called their dogs back and left the body there. Ahn said the body lied there for several days decomposing and when other prisoners saw it they were ordered to ignore and "work" around it. Maggots and other insects ate away at the body until one day it was finally removed and buried at another part of the camp.

Guards also practiced their training skills on the prisoners. North Korean military training involves some martial arts training. To practice this guards would tie up prisoners to poles and beat them. "Death to the US imperial aggressor&#33;", was the shout guards would give as they kicked, punched, and beat the defenseless people tied up. One North Korean refugee who escaped the camp experienced this. His family which included his wife and two sons were put through this exercise. While he was tied up him and his wife pleaded with the guards to show mercy but the pleas did nothing. He was kicked so hard in the genitals at one point that he vomited and defecated at the same time. He almost passed out from the pain but was warned if he did his wife and kids would take his place. He continued to endure the beatings so his wife wouldn&#39;t have to go through them. His wife ended up getting beat as well anyway. Many other prisoners were forced to watch this exercise as a way to keep order through fear.

Another way order is kept is with public stonings. This practice is mostly reserved for children. Another refugee who spent his childhood in the camp remembers this vividly. A friend of his was tied to a pole because his father was attempting to "ideologically corrupt" the people of North Korea by saying the capitalist system in Japan was not that bad. Guards started the stoning by pelting the child with sharp rocks. The guards always made sure that all of the rocks were extra sharp. The rocks cut the face of the child and the refugee says he can remember the skin peeling off the child&#39;s face. It was so bad in some parts that you could see the white of bone. When the guards were done the child was nothing but a bloody gurgling mess. All the other children prisoners were ordered to pick up rocks and throw them at the child as well. If they didn&#39;t they were also "ideologically corrupt" and would be punished. Some children shouted "death to the traitors of Kim IL Sung&#33; (this was in the late eighties)" to appease the guards and threw rocks until the child finally died.

Hard slave labor is also used in the camp. Many of the big ones have factories and many of the material goods used in North Korea come from these camps. Most of the prisoners spend most of their time working from dawn to dusk. If any slave worker is thought to be slowing down or causing a delay in production they are punished severely. Ahn said one day while he was stationed at one of the factories he saw an elderly man fall down while working. He had trouble getting back up and one of the guards said he was slacking on the job. As punishment the guard beat the old man over the back of the head with an iron tube. He hit him so hard that the man&#39;s eye came out but it didn&#39;t fall completely out. The eye dangled by a thin piece of muscle and the old man tried to catch it. Finally the guard was finished beating him and the man lied on the ground in a pool of his own blood. He stayed there until he died and his body wasn&#39;t removed for several days as well. Other slave workers were ordered to work around him and not notice the body.

Rape and severe sexual abuse is a very common occurrence at the camp. Ahn said he even heard stories of guards raping girls as young as 5. Sexual debauchery is very disgusting and rampant. One refugee who escaped said she was ordered on many occasions to have sex with her brother and father. Guards would sometimes order women to sleep with their family members or with animals and would watch while masturbating. The refugee said on one occasion two guards defecated and masturbated into a glass and forced her to drink it. Ahn told a story in one case when he went to his commanding officers office and saw a naked women tied down and kneeling on the floor. The prisoners are hardly fed and are starving. The officer was dangling a piece of food on a string in front of the women&#39;s mouth. Every time the women tried to jump up and get it the officer would pull it away. Ahn asked why he was doing this and the officer told him he enjoys watching naked women trying to get his food. He was doing this for his own personal enjoyment, starving a women to death. Since rape happens so frequently many of the women get pregnant. If a women gets pregnant it&#39;s her fault and she is punished. Ahn said there is a whole area of the camp designed just for pregnant women. Pregnant prisoners are treated worse because "they are attempting to continue the line of family dissent." Most women get forced abortions or worse. Ahn saw one execution in which an eight month pregnant women was tied to a tree. A guard held two long knives and cut open the women&#39;s stomach. The women screamed in agony as she became a bloody mess. The women wouldn&#39;t stop screaming so the guard slit her throat. In some cases in which the women is to late in the third trimester to get an abortion they are forced into labor. The women are injected with a medicine that causes muscle spasms which triggers labor. When the babies are delivered they are instantly killed. One refugee said she witnessed one women give birth and after the baby was born the doctors squeezed it&#39;s neck until it died. Other doctors forced the mother to watch in punishment. Another case a baby was born on the cement floor and after it was delivered a doctor kicked it against the wall over and over again like a soccer ball until the baby died. The refugee said she can still hear the baby screaming. Once again the mother was forced to watch in punishment.

Military experiments are also done on the prisoners. One day a group of prisoners were ordered to a garden in a sealed off part of the camp. They were given big heads of lettuce to eat. The prisoners were reluctant at first as they never get fed so well but were ordered to do so by the guards. Thirty minutes after they eat them they began to violently vomit blood and go into convulsions. The lettuce was sprayed with a chemical that the North Koreans hope to use as a weapon. One refugee who somehow managed to witness this started screaming. She was punished by being taken to a prison cell. The cells were around the size of a dog kennel and the only way people could fit was to crouch into an upright fetal position. She was held in that position in the cage for 72 hours and while in there was fed some sort of laxative through a tube so she would defecate on herself. Ahn also witnessed chemical gas being tested on prisoners. He was ordered to round up prisoners and take them to another part of the camp. While there the prisoners were put in a small pen of barbed wire. While there canisters were thrown in releasing some kind of gas. The people started to scream and try to escape but anyone who touched the barb wire was shot. Sadly the gas wasn&#39;t strong enough and the people didn&#39;t die. Instead their skin was burned off and their faces disfigured. They were ordered back to the regular part of camp and died several weeks later. Ahn said he could overhear North Korean scientists arguing during the tests because the gas wasn&#39;t strong enough.

There are even more tales but I just can&#39;t bring myself to tell them anymore. I&#39;m sorry. Listening or reading these stories just enrages me too much. The saddest thing of all though is this isn&#39;t the worst thing happening in North Korea right now. Starvation has gripped the majority of the country. Since 1998 over 3 million people have died of starvation and many more due to malnutrition and disease. The Kim Jong IL government has blamed the starvation on economic sanctions and flooding. While North Korea has been under economic sanctions since the 1950s the country still receives the most food aid per head then any other country in the world. The food just never reaches the people that need it. Whenever food shipments are delivered to ports it gets diverted to other people. The food is then sold on the black market to whoever pays the most for it. The money goes to the inner elite of Pyongyang and the North Korean military. Many independent food and hunger groups have left North Korea out of frustration because of this. One German doctor who was part of the group Doctors Without Borders left the country in utter disgust in 1999 and wrote "what is happening there now is far worse then the holocaust." He&#39;s right. It has gotten so bad in some areas that human meat is now being sold as food. Babies are being killed for meat and the people eating it know what the meat is. One starving person when asked if they knew the meat they were eating was human said yes and that it didn&#39;t matter because they were so hungry. While it&#39;s also true that flooding has damaged thousands of acres of farming land millions more acres are being used to grow crops other then food. North Korea has far more land available for farming then South Korea but the majority of the land is being used to grow poppy seeds for heroin. One farmer who escaped to China told the story of how three government officials came to his farm and ordered him to plant poppy instead of rice. He asked why and was told "it is a matter of the state." North Korea makes around 500 million to 1 billion dollars selling heroin and opium on the world black market. Where does that money go? Why to the inner elite and the military of course.

In a country that was designed to create everyone equal and to have no rich and poor the rich (the inner elite and the chosen few in Pyongyang the capital city) are getting richer while the poor (the millions in the rest of the country) are getting poorer. Actually, the rich are getting richer and the poor are being wiped off the face of the country. Just like every Communist country.

Pyongyang is kept incredibly clean and is upkept to look like a gorgeous city. It is done this way so international diplomats and tourists can think North Korea is a beautiful country and that is it running smoothly. Even while in Pyongyang tourists are kept to strict traveling patters as given to them by the state and are watched closely by government officials. No foreigner (unless it is an aid worker although most have left) is allowed to visit any other parts of the country. While in Pyongyang visitors are also fed well with huge amounts of food to make them think the starvation problem is minimal. The entire city of Pyongyang is propaganda.

Knowing all of this North Korea and it&#39;s system of government is simply not "different or misunderstood." It is the purest form of evil the human race has ever known. The holocaust, Stalin&#39;s purges, the raping of Nanking, Saddam&#39;s atrocities all are nothing compared to what is going on there right now. While many people in first world countries are criticizing George W Bush (who knows all that is happening in the country) for having a hawkish attitude towards Kim Jong IL and living in their nice houses with climate control and eating a limitless suply of food while people in North Korea are suffering the likes of which humans have never seen before. The saddest thing out of all of this is nothing can help those people. Giving aid doesn&#39;t work as it just makes Kim Jong IL&#39;s regime stronger. Contrary to what some people believe the Kim Jong IL regime is not on the verge of collapse as he is seen as a God to many of the people in Pyongyang and other parts of the country near the city and will last for many more decades. Invading won&#39;t work as North Korea already has nuclear weapons and missiles capable of reaching South Korea and Japan and has over 10,000 artillery guns pointed at Seoul, the South Korean capital. Even if they didn&#39;t have nuclear weapons as soon as an invasion would start all 200,000 people in the camps would be killed and the camps destroyed to hide all the evidence in case North Korea lost the war. The worst case of atrocity the world has ever known is still continuing today and sadly there is almost nothing anyone can do to stop it. Whenever you hear anybody praise Kim Jong IL or North Korea for standing up against the United States please remember the stories of what happened and is still happening in the camps. The country is not just different, they are what evil is in it&#39;s highest forms.

To learn more please watch the documentary Children of the Secret State. It sometimes is shown on the Discovery Times Channel. Also please visit

www.freenorthkorea.net

and

http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/NKHR_new/in...dex_eng_new.htm (http://www.nkhumanrights.or.kr/NKHR_new/index_eng_new.htm)

[Loknar]

Polaris, interesting article, it may have truth , but it sounds like propaganda. The way it is written leads me to believe that but I could be wrong.

[Slobo Is God]

I&#39;m thinking of moving to North Korea.

[Exploited Class]

Anybody that writes about genocides that countries have comitted, or crimes against humanity, inhumane treatment and torture of masses of people, then lists off countries that have done it but leaves out the United States and their treatment of Native Americans, I know the author is one sides and is a tool.

When an author leaves out the percantage of people in prison within the US, the crimes it inacted on Native Americans, Juveniles being triad as adults, sorry I should say, Juveniles as young as 12 being tried as adults, still uses capital punishment as a means of fear against its populace, the number of homeless, starving and poverty stricken people untouched by the cold cruel hand of the capitalist machine; I know that, that author only finds fault in other countries and not at his home. I would not trust that author or anything that he has to say.

You know, many countries have tried to commit genocide, but very few have been as successful as the United States.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Best of luck on moving to North Korea, it is virtually impossible to visit, and immigration is totally unknown, mainly because it is illegal. Yes, North Korea is the most xenophobic, secure country in the world. Don&#39;t even bother trying to get in. There is literally no contact with the outside world from North Korea. No internet, no phones, no mail, nothing. What communication inforstructure is there is totally self-contained within North Korea. South Koreans can not even call or visit relatives. Of course if you think otherwise, I challenge you to find a North Korean on gamespy, or on a singles network, or even on a hit counter map that shows where site visiters are from. There are plenty of people from just about everywhere, even the most impoverished countries Somolia, Sudan, Iraq, absolutely everywhere (though not always in overwhelming quantity), EXCEPT North Korea. I doubt that even pro-North Korean websites are authentically from the North. Regarding what is said from before, I wouldn&#39;t know what the hell to believe, since virtually nothing is known about the country outside of picturesque scenes of Pyongyang and mass games. I&#39;m neither pro or anti, I am just speaking the facts.

[lostsoul]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2003, 11:35 AM
Best of luck on moving to North Korea, it is virtually impossible to visit, and immigration is totally unknown, mainly because it is illegal. Yes, North Korea is the most xenophobic, secure country in the world. Don&#39;t even bother trying to get in. There is literally no contact with the outside world from North Korea. No internet, no phones, no mail, nothing. What communication inforstructure is there is totally self-contained within North Korea. South Koreans can not even call or visit relatives. Of course if you think otherwise, I challenge you to find a North Korean on gamespy, or on a singles network, or even on a hit counter map that shows where site visiters are from. There are plenty of people from just about everywhere, even the most impoverished countries Somolia, Sudan, Iraq, absolutely everywhere (though not always in overwhelming quantity), EXCEPT North Korea. I doubt that even pro-North Korean websites are authentically from the North. Regarding what is said from before, I wouldn&#39;t know what the hell to believe, since virtually nothing is known about the country outside of picturesque scenes of Pyongyang and mass games. I&#39;m neither pro or anti, I am just speaking the facts.
any sources, please?

[Saint-Just]

North Korean defectors are notorious liars, they say those things for the South Koreans. That guard, like every other defector would have been given a large sum of money and accomodation in South Korea. A lot of South Koreans are no longer believing those stories.


Chairman Mao, that&#39;s quite fascinating.


I thought North Koreas satellite failed to enter orbit. I recall reading a BBC article stating that n the anniversary of North Koreas independence a rocket was launched but it failed to enter orbit, flew over Japan and landed in the Pacific.

I am sure they have one satellite and were thinking of launching another. They have supposedly fired some missiles that landed somewhere in the pacific though.


So Chairman Mao, do they also have unlimited access to the Internet?

They only access North Korean sites.

[PolarisUSMC]

Polaris, interesting article, it may have truth, but it sounds like propaganda. The way it is written leads me to believe that but I could be wrong.

If it was written by someone in the government, I might have questioned it myself, but it wasnt. It was written by some history buff in another forum I&#39;m on (I couldn&#39;t find the origional link, but luckly I copy pasted it. I thought it was a good write-up.)

[PolarisUSMC]

Originally posted by lostsoul+Dec 18 2003, 12:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lostsoul @ Dec 18 2003, 12:16 PM)
[email protected] 18 2003, 11:35 AM
Best of luck on moving to North Korea, it is virtually impossible to visit, and immigration is totally unknown, mainly because it is illegal. Yes, North Korea is the most xenophobic, secure country in the world. Don&#39;t even bother trying to get in. There is literally no contact with the outside world from North Korea. No internet, no phones, no mail, nothing. What communication inforstructure is there is totally self-contained within North Korea. South Koreans can not even call or visit relatives. Of course if you think otherwise, I challenge you to find a North Korean on gamespy, or on a singles network, or even on a hit counter map that shows where site visiters are from. There are plenty of people from just about everywhere, even the most impoverished countries Somolia, Sudan, Iraq, absolutely everywhere (though not always in overwhelming quantity), EXCEPT North Korea. I doubt that even pro-North Korean websites are authentically from the North. Regarding what is said from before, I wouldn&#39;t know what the hell to believe, since virtually nothing is known about the country outside of picturesque scenes of Pyongyang and mass games. I&#39;m neither pro or anti, I am just speaking the facts.
any sources, please? [/b]
Go on Gamespy or any other online program that allows you to see what country people are from. I have yet to see an NK one, although There were afew other countries I didn&#39;t see either. This of course doesn&#39;t mean that they don&#39;t have contact, but I just thought it interesting to try.

I&#39;ve been online since the birth of the internet and I still have yet to see one North Korean.

[PolarisUSMC]

Anybody that writes about genocides that countries have comitted, or crimes against humanity, inhumane treatment and torture of masses of people, then lists off countries that have done it but leaves out the United States and their treatment of Native Americans, I know the author is one sides and is a tool.

If you read the article, you would have found it was about North Korea. The only time there is the mention of another country is in the first paragraph.

You can argue about what the US has done, but I won&#39;t change a thing about North Korea.

[PolarisUSMC]

Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 18 2003, 12:45 PM

So Chairman Mao, do they also have unlimited access to the Internet?

They only access North Korean sites.
Just think of it as a big ass network neighborhood.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Try looking for a North Korean on anything, even something like a popular single&#39;s network with millions of users. You WILL find THOUSANDS people from even the most impoverished of countries, even ones like Somolia, Uganda, Iraq, anywhere. You will find NO North Koreans, and the ones that are there (there were a few) don&#39;t seem to really be from the North. I challenge anyone to find an ISP for North Korean internet or a North Korean server or anything at all and I will see if I can track its source. I highly doubt there anyone there has a use of a phone, internet, or any other form of communication. Perhaps someone can give me a phone number of someone in the North and we can chit chat about the weather and such. :lol: I do think that other article is propaganda though, no one really knows what the hell is going on in that country. However, some thick-headed right-winger would accuse these "Communists" of eating children :blink:

[Saint-Just]

They do not connect to the outside internet on a large basis. They only use their own network. They are always listing new sites they have made in the news.

[ComradeRobertRiley]

Thanks, Nice pics, looks pretty cool.

[Loknar]

I did a search on ICQ for North Korea and there are allot.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by lostsoul+Dec 18 2003, 08:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (lostsoul @ Dec 18 2003, 08:16 AM)
[email protected] 18 2003, 11:35 AM
Best of luck on moving to North Korea, it is virtually impossible to visit, and immigration is totally unknown, mainly because it is illegal. Yes, North Korea is the most xenophobic, secure country in the world. Don&#39;t even bother trying to get in. There is literally no contact with the outside world from North Korea. No internet, no phones, no mail, nothing. What communication inforstructure is there is totally self-contained within North Korea. South Koreans can not even call or visit relatives. Of course if you think otherwise, I challenge you to find a North Korean on gamespy, or on a singles network, or even on a hit counter map that shows where site visiters are from. There are plenty of people from just about everywhere, even the most impoverished countries Somolia, Sudan, Iraq, absolutely everywhere (though not always in overwhelming quantity), EXCEPT North Korea. I doubt that even pro-North Korean websites are authentically from the North. Regarding what is said from before, I wouldn&#39;t know what the hell to believe, since virtually nothing is known about the country outside of picturesque scenes of Pyongyang and mass games. I&#39;m neither pro or anti, I am just speaking the facts.
any sources, please? [/b]
talk to a North Korean who escaped
or better yet, try to immigrate there and see how far you get

[redstar2000]

An adventure in tourism...

North Korea (http://lonelyplanet.com/destinations/north_east_asia/north_korea/)

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Lol, the "tour" of North Korea is the equivilant of giving someone the tour of the United States, that being stopping the boat at the statue of liberty, giving them a few inside, and sending them back home. "North Korean internet" is absolute nonesence. Those people don&#39;t have phones or anything of the sort, much less internet access. Dood, your getting a Dell&#33; I&#39;ve heard they have TV though, but North Korean shows are legendary for their slowness in pace, and are almost entirely propaganda.

[Nobody]

Look, every country wants to show off their best side. Lots of tourists go to New York City, but I&#39;ve never heard of a tour going through the slums.

Right?

[Bolshevika]

Government: Communist &#39;dynasty&#39;, one-man dictatorship

That article was written probably by some dumbass who has little to not grasp of politics. DPRK is not a "one man dictatorship", it is a socialist republic. It is as democratic as Cuba, just in much more dire need because of all the natural disastors and extreme trade embargoes against it.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

I do not think of North Korea as Communist at all. It has an ethnocentric, extreme nationalist, xenophobic government. The entire country is almost like one old museum to Kim Sung from what little I (or anyone else for that matter) knows about the place. I doubt there is any such "network neighborhood" since I can&#39;t imagine where the Koreans would be getting computers, or what they might do with them, (I highly doubt many North Koreans would get internet just for an alternative method of getting their daily dose of propaganda. Perhaps the only thing I know about the Korean people, is they know about as much about the rest of the world, as they know about us. Any old fool can put North Korea on their ICQ, but that doesn&#39;t mean they are actually there. Communist maybe only by economics, but not in theory.

[Anti-Fascist]

I do not think of North Korea as Communist at all.

It does not claim to be Communist. No country on earth has made such
a claim.



It has an ethnocentric,

Defend this claim.


extreme nationalist,

Defend this claim.


xenophobic government.

And defend this claim.


The entire country is almost like one old museum to Kim Sung from what little I (or anyone else for that matter) knows about the place.

On what do you base this? Some pictures of Kim Il Sung?


Communist maybe only by economics, but not in theory.

N. Korea does not claim to be Communist in any sense of the word. It is
a Socialist worker&#39;s democracy (now wasn&#39;t that redundant).

[Loknar]

anti-fascist. If North Korea is not xenophobic then why wont they allow their people to travel out side north Korea?


I think north Korea is a socialist monarchy. Heavily rooted in religious worship to Kim Il Sung (He is the "Eternal&#39; Head of State) and Kim Jong-Il.

[Saint-Just]

"North Korean internet" is absolute nonesence. Those people don&#39;t have phones or anything of the sort, much less internet access. Dood, your getting a Dell&#33; I&#39;ve heard they have TV though, but North Korean shows are legendary for their slowness in pace, and are almost entirely propaganda. ~MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr

They have a broad network through schools and libraries, that is very impressive considering the poor economic development in the last 15 years. I would also suggest to you that there are phones in the country too. The economy has been making a transition to IT to make gains in efficiency over the last 20 years. Of course masses of people are not going to be given home PCs. Also, you can hardly expect them to have TV programmes like we do in the west, because those kind of programmes simply do not reflect socialist society. They do have a good animation industry with which they get orders from the west to draw for certain cartoons, in addition they have their own film industry. Why do you want to be a socialist if you are so content with Western life?

If North Korea is not xenophobic then why wont they allow their people to travel out side north Korea?

The DPRK is simply not compatible enough with the west for the two societies to mix like that. Also, the country is not wealthy enough to do so.

[Hoppe]

I really don&#39;t understand why people try to defend this country.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Me too. As an Anarchist, I despise this sort of government as much as capitalism.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 01:52 PM
I really don&#39;t understand why people try to defend this country.
The DPRK can defend itself, if you knew enough about the country you would not attack it in this manner. Your lack of knowledge on it is the reason you cannot understand this subject.

[Hoppe]

Always the easy reply Mao. You do not know my knowledge of Korea, and I think people who "deny" the atrocities of this dictatorship are pathetic. Don&#39;t come up with excuses, it&#39;s laughable and you won&#39;t persuade anybody with it.

[Saint-Just]

There is a lot of western propaganda floating around, unfortunately people such as yourself lap it up. You have a long way to go to becoming a socialist, someone who realises that our capitalist societies are engineered by an economic class.

[Hoppe]

Yes, I have posted o so many things in this thread. <_<

Regardless of the fact whether the information is propaganda (so is that coming from the Korean authority), DPRK can only hurt your movement not help it.

[Slobo Is God]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 05:24 PM
Yes, I have posted o so many things in this thread. <_<

Regardless of the fact whether the information is propaganda (so is that coming from the Korean authority), DPRK can only hurt your movement not help it.
I agree with Mao. Unless you realize that North Korea is the model for which all other nations should aspire, you&#39;re not a true Socialist.

[Saint-Just]

I would suggest that the popularity of the DPRK is a reflection of the popularity of Marxism-Leninism.

I also object to your use of the word dictatorship, I think you use it in a bourgeois manner. All governments are dictatorships, class dictatorships. Although this is not really relevant if you do not subscribe to Marxism.

I cannot know if this western propaganda is true or not. However, I make a judgement of it based on western propaganda I have come across that I know to be lies, and on the positive aspects of the DPRK I know to be truthful. I have come across a lot of information on the DPRK, Anti-Fascist and I have not come across many people who come to close to possessing the same degree of knowledge we have on the DPRK, at least on the internet.

I have read many books by Kim Jong Il and attended meetings refuting these lies about the DPRK. I have also shaken hands with North Koreans who I know to be conscientious and intelligent human beings. I base my judgement on the DPRK on these positive things and what I know to be western lies. There is of course a degree of doubt since there is western propaganda that I do not know to be true or false. However, my view is certainly not infantile or pathetic.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Where have you meet any North Koreans? How can we verify any claims on North Korea if we cannot even go there? There is nothing I would like better then to set foot into North Korea and see what really goes on inside there (outside Pyongyang) first hand, but since that is utterly impossible, especially by a US citizen, and immigration is just out of the question, then all we can do is speculate.

[Hoppe]

I also object to your use of the word dictatorship, I think you use it in a bourgeois manner. All governments are dictatorships, class dictatorships. Although this is not really relevant if you do not subscribe to Marxism.

On the contrary, I object to governments as well and many of my arguments are the same as yours.

You can always come up with good things on any country (their parades are astonishing) and I do not doubt you have met honest persons (refugees or what?) but nevertheless Kim Yong Il should be put on a deserted island.

[Jesus Christ]

I guess nobody here would be described as a socialist due to the fact that more than half of the people here would not want to live in North Korea and be a drone
I would love to live in Cuba, but absolutely not North Korea, it IS a monarchal system there
you could defend the country all you want, I am pretty sure none of you would REALLY want to live in North Korea

[Saint-Just]

There is nothing I would like better then to set foot into North Korea and see what really goes on inside there (outside Pyongyang) first hand, but since that is utterly impossible, especially by a US citizen

It is not too hard to visit the DPRK if you live in the U.S. I know an American who has.

I do not doubt you have met honest persons (refugees or what?)

I have met North Korean ambassadors.

I am pretty sure none of you would REALLY want to live in North Korea

I am British so I would not really want to live in Korea because I cannot speak Korean. If I were Korean I would love to live there. I would certainly like a socialist system like that in the DPRK to exist in Britain. I can assure you that I like every facet of life in North Korea, although it is much poorer than Britain.

[Soviet power supreme]

I know an American who has

Bill Graham?

How is the reuniting process going?I thought it was going but western medias keeps telling those border conflicts.

[Hoppe]

I have met North Korean ambassadors.

Very good source <_<

[Saint-Just]

Bill Graham?

How is the reuniting process going?I thought it was going but western medias keeps telling those border conflicts.

No, he is a half French man named Michelle ... (I can&#39;t remember his second name). He is the American delegate for the KFA.

Very good source

My point was that they are very diligent and humanitarian people. Obviously they could lie, but they would find it much more difficult to conceal their character. Their character shows me that they really respect the progressive liberal and socialist values of the 20th and 21st Centuries.

[Bolshevika]

I think north Korea is a socialist monarchy. Heavily rooted in religious worship to Kim Il Sung (He is the "Eternal&#39; Head of State) and Kim Jong-Il.

You, Lokner, have a horribly simplistic bourgeois view of North Korea&#39;s great leader Kim Il Sung. In the sense of Hegelian dialects, Kim Il Sung is still alive.

I agree that the cult personality of Kim Il Sung is a little odd, but I believe this is something done out of desperation to keep support for the Socialist workers government, due to the fact that DPRK has been on the verge of collapse and has had horrible and tragic famines.
This &#39;cult personality&#39; really has been something of the 90&#39;s, prior to the horrible economic depression North Koreans lived extremely normal lives, the North&#39;s economy even was developing faster than the Souths at one point. Prior to the economic problems Kim Il Sung viewed as a great hero, yes, but not like now. Rightfully so, Kim Il Sung fought his entire life for the North Korean peoples independence and social justice. During the 50&#39;s, 60&#39;s, and 70&#39;s DPRK was much freer and had greater standards of living than South Korea.

I can guarantee you that if the United States was in DPRK&#39;s position is would have massive child labour and 2-3 families in one room apartments. Just look at the Western nations when they were developing during the "industrial revolution".

North Korea has many major landmarks, and Pyongyang has much potential to become a Socialist metropolis in some future when their economy is fixed. If only the imperialists would sign a treaty with Comrade Kim Jong Il, then there could be peace and more emphasis can be put on helping the Korean people.

[redstar2000]

In the sense of Hegelian dialect[ic]s, Kim Il Sung is still alive.

See, Karl, I told you that Hegelian metaphysics was going to land anyone who tried to use it in the shit.

Dead people "still alive"?

Do they go around on Kim&#39;s birthday, saying "He is risen&#33;"? :lol:


If only the imperialists would sign a treaty with Comrade Kim Jong Il, then there could be peace and more emphasis can be put on helping the Korean people.

They probably will sign a treaty...all the North Koreans have to agree to is "opening their markets" to "western investment". China and Vietnam have already "shown the way".

And daddy will give junior the worst spanking of his life...the old ghost has a heavy hand. :lol:

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Bolshevika]

See, Karl, I told you that Hegelian metaphysics was going to land anyone who tried to use it in the shit.

Dead people "still alive"?

Do they go around on Kim&#39;s birthday, saying "He is risen&#33;"?

Kim is still alive in the sense that his idea (Juche), his memory, his spirit (not &#39;spiritual&#39;, but more like his dedication) live with the Korean people and guide their decisions. He guides the Korean people through days dark and stormy, and days shining and beautiful.

A person does not to be breathing to &#39;live&#39; in regards to others. The death of Kim Il Sung only takes away his body from the people, but not his ideas. Hence this is how revolutions carry on even when the lead revolutionary dies.



They probably will sign a treaty...all the North Koreans have to agree to is "opening their markets" to "western investment". China and Vietnam have already "shown the way".

This is what George W. Bush wants, however the DPRK&#39;s government does not want this. The proposal the North Korean government has handed to the terrorists is &#39;we will stop building weapons if you sign this non-aggression pact&#39;, not much to do with economics, but more with having the contract signed incase the imperialist merceneries want to invade Korea.



And daddy will give junior the worst spanking of his life...the old ghost has a heavy hand.

This is not what I mean when I say he is still alive.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2003, 08:09 PM
Kim is still alive in the sense that his idea (Juche), his memory, his spirit (not &#39;spiritual&#39;, but more like his dedication) live with the Korean people and guide their decisions. He guides the Korean people through days dark and stormy, and days shining and beautiful.

Exactly, you&#39;re catching on, he passed it on to his son, Jong Il forcibly GUIDES the North Korean people every day, all day, good or bad, whether they like it or not.

[Loknar]

How is a peasant free when he sees his leader as a God? I thought Communism preaches equality... How can a brainwashed people see them selves as equal to Kim Jong Il and Kim Il sung?

[Anti-Fascist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 04:40 AM
How is a peasant free when he sees his leader as a God? I thought Communism preaches equality... How can a brainwashed people see them selves as equal to Kim Jong Il and Kim Il sung?
1. Communism does not "preach" equality per se. From each according to his ability, to each according
to his deeds is not "equality". From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs
(communism), is not "equality" either.

2. The people of n. Korea do not see their leaders as Gods. Would you care to defend your claim?

[Saint-Just]

Kim Il Sungs idea, Juche, and the philosophy he developed from that inspiration of the 1930s is still alive, it is an idea that won over in struggle with other ideas in Korea.


They probably will sign a treaty...all the North Koreans have to agree to is "opening their markets" to "western investment". China and Vietnam have already "shown the way".

And daddy will give junior the worst spanking of his life...the old ghost has a heavy hand.

I don&#39;t think this statement is worth replying to Bolshevika, its just a joke. Why does redstar2000 care if North Korea &#39;open their market&#39;? He is only trying to antagonise. They make open their markets, they may not. The economic initiatives they are currently undertaking are the only option they have, they need economic revitalisation. The U.S. has wages a successful war against them in which economic collapse has been forced. We must help defend the Korean system so that this may not happen.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2003, 01:02 AM
2. The people of n. Korea do not see their leaders as Gods. Would you care to defend your claim?
would you care to defend that they dont?
there are plenty of videos that you can get almost anywhere about life in N. Korea from all over the world

[Anti-Fascist]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ+Dec 20 2003, 08:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jesus Christ @ Dec 20 2003, 08:52 PM)
[email protected] 20 2003, 01:02 AM
2. The people of n. Korea do not see their leaders as Gods. Would you care to defend your claim?
would you care to defend that they dont?
there are plenty of videos that you can get almost anywhere about life in N. Korea from all over the world [/b]
You have committed an appeal to ignorance fallacy. The burden of
proof is on him who makes the positive affirmation. He who makes
the claim must defend it. I simply denied the correctness of the
claim that the Leaders are seen as Gods, owing to lack of evidence.
Thus, again, the burden of proof is not on I.

If someone can prove substantially that the leaders are seen as
Gods, I shall change my mind about this without hesitation. As yet
I have never come across such proof of this all too common assertion;
nor have I come across even a scintilla of evidence in favour thereof.

[Soviet power supreme]

I have studied DPRK lately and I see that reunification process is going well. North- and South-Korea will send unified team in Atena&#39;s olympics.If they unite there would be an federation of two systems, two governments and two capitals.Too bad that yankees are stalling this process.

Medias are telling about DPRK&#39;s nuclear weapon plan but I keep thinking Who does DPRK need nuclear weapons against?

China is their partner.
South-Korea is their fellow country.They are Koreans too.
Japan hasn&#39;t been imperialistic for 60 years.
Russia is their trading partner.
Usa?How many times Usa could explode whole DPRK up with their Nukes?

I think this Nuclear weapon thing is nothing but western propaganda.North Koreans haven&#39;t admit that they would have any plans.Chinese havent report anything that they have admit it.Yet western medias keeps telling that they have plans.


I would love to live in Cuba, but absolutely not North Korea, it IS a monarchal system there
Monarchal system?Are you saying that USA is monarchal?Why Kim Il-Sung&#39;s son couldn&#39;t attend to elections?

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by Soviet power [email protected] 20 2003, 05:33 PM
Why Kim Il-Sung&#39;s son couldn&#39;t attend to elections?
he doesnt need to attend elections when he already knows the outcome ;)

[Bolshevika]

Kim Jong Il held high political posts far before 1994 when Kim Il Sung died. It isn&#39;t as if Kim Jong Il is some senseless person with no knowelege or experience of politics and socialism, on the contrary.

Kim Jong Il is a fit leader.