How to deal with thieves in the movement?

[SocialistBooks]

Over the course of the last year we have been gathering evidence that a certain liberal activist embezzled 500$ for personal use that was supposed to be used to fund a project. The evidence is pretty conclusive, we actually went to one of the stores and obtained copies of a receipt that was signed with her name. The groups are all informal and there is no centralized board that has the authority to take action on this matter (which is a huge problem in itself), but regardless, my immediate thoughts were that this person should be forced out of the group through shunning, shaming, or slandering. There was a huge group of hippies and church ladies objected that she should still be allowed to participate (and that I am a bully for telling her to GTFO) and a few leftist whom I had respected (no longer) made the case that because we had so few activists willing to show up and work that we shouldn't shun or shame her out even though she is likely a thief and liar. There were also a number of people (mostly the people whose project was stolen from) who wanted to get the information out there and talked about openly. At first a number of us were content that she had gone into a sort of self imposed exile but she has recently returned and is jumping in front of cameras (like she had always done) and presenting herself as a "leader" of another group that is doing anti-foreclosure work .... so anyway, we had written a report to be released to the various affiliated groups concerning this matter (like a warning to "watch out" for this person in your group) a long time ago but didn't put it out there because we deemed it damaging. The last few weeks we have had many discussions on how to move forwards with this in which I (and a few others) have been personally attacked for supposedly "bullying" her, which as I see it, is an attempt to skirt the issue of theft for my behavior. I pretty much rejected all of that, because honestly, I don't see the issue with shunning or shaming a known thief and liar.

I was just wondering how members here have dealt with issues such as these in the past?

[Martin Blank]

Some people in this world simply have no principles or warped principles. When we found a couple thieves in our organization, we expelled them and circulated a "Watch Your Wallet" leaflet among other leftists and activists locally. It earned us some enemies (mainly among those who were already unprincipled), but it also resulted in a number of people respecting our honesty.

I'd say expose the thief, including to the media.

[electrostal]

A good ass-kicking should do it.:lol:

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Purge.

[Deicide]

When a troubling situation, such as this, presents itself, I always like to think ''what would Stalin do?''. He would send them to gulag, of course. All sympathetic leftists, hippies and church ladies also go to gulag for anti-party activities.

[Book O'Dead]

What would Stalin do? Send them to gulag, of course. All sympathetic leftists, hippies and church ladies also go to gulag for anti-party activities.

Also, anyone who complains about the lack of due process is to be shot at sunrise.

[Ostrinski]

Destroy her at once.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Shun, shame and boot. Shouldn't hold on to people out of fear of having less numbers in the group; irresptive of the numbers, if they're made up of theives and liars, wo would want to be part of such a group?

[Book O'Dead]

The last few weeks we have had many discussions on how to move forwards with this in which I (and a few others) have been personally attacked for supposedly "bullying" her, which as I see it, is an attempt to skirt the issue of theft for my behavior. I pretty much rejected all of that, because honestly, I don't see the issue with shunning or shaming a known thief and liar.

I was just wondering how members here have dealt with issues such as these in the past?

It's a sorry tale. There is a maxim that says: "Educate first, Organize second."

You have no business organizing anything if you don't know what you're doing. That is, if you don't know how to organize or what you're organizing for.

If, from the very start, you didn't elect officials and kept minutes of your meetings and demanded receipts and signatures from all involved, then you're fucked. You have no case.

Also, the type of organization you seem to have been involved in is probably vulnerable to more dangerous and vexing problems. You could be infiltrated by police, wackos and agent provocateurs (or a combination thereof). You or your comrades might suddenly find yourselves in a deep, dark jail cell wondering what that package was you had in your hands just before the SWAT team came and took you away. Think about it.

My recommendation is this: Walk away from the whole thing. Store it in your files under "Experience" and go look for an already-established organization whose affinities are like yours and that you can trust and start reading their literature.

[SocialistBooks]

If, from the very start, you didn't elect officials and kept minutes of your meetings and demanded receipts and signatures from all involved, then you're fucked. You have no case.

Yeah, that is what is so troubling, we have a huge fat file folder that documents all of this (including emails, minutes, our policies and procedures, signatures, etc.) and there are still people that are worried about a thief's 'feelings' getting hurt.

In case anyone was wondering, the informal nature of this "group" owes to the fact that it is an Occupy affiliated one. I have worked with established groups over the years and that is defiantly part of reason this is so frustrating to me. There are good and bed things about groups like this, this just happens to be one of the bad things.

[SocialistBooks]

My recommendation is this: Walk away from the whole thing.

Agreed. I can't, in good conscience, be involved in an "organization" that is so disorganized that it can't expel members or work to resolve issues of theft even when presented with the evidence of their misdeeds. A number of people (myself included) are taking steps to remove ourselves from this dysfunctional milieu and get back to our regular groups that we have been neglecting.

[ellipsis]

When a troubling situation, such as this, presents itself, I always like to think ''what would Stalin do?''. He would send them to gulag, of course. All sympathetic leftists, hippies and church ladies also go to gulag for anti-party activities.


Also, anyone who complains about the lack of due process is to be shot at sunrise.


Destroy her at once.

Verbal warning for spam. This is a serious forum for advice, etc. Keep this type of rubbish to chit chat, or to yourselves please.

[ellipsis]

I would encourage you to stick around in some capacity. I understand that it can be frustrating, I have had frustrations with occupy SF. But you go to war with the army you have, not the one that you would like. Yes it sucks that leftist groups, including are not well organized and have many problems, but the movement and the revolution has to start somewhere and people are born to be the perfect comrades.

We are starting from square one, more or less and that means that a lot of simple, basic organizing is in order.

[shinjuku dori]

Be understanding. We are organized against the power of money as capital to compel into wage slavery war and worse. Right? I personally feel for the person who is desperate or warped enough by life in this society to have to steal from me.

[homegrown terror]

i would find out why she did it. if she's hurting terribly, facing eviction or something equally serious, tell her that next time she should just ask, and her fellow comerades would be willing to help her, just as she'd help them if they were in need.

if it was just an act of greed, i agree with the people saying show her to the door. a greed thief in party garb is no different than the greed thieves in three piece suits who control corporate interests.

[ВАЛТЕР]

:cool: Like so:


http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/563291_3779527653843_1041187051_n.jpg

It is from 1943 at the height of the war. When our partisans would liberate a town from the Nazis, they posted this which stated:

It reads:
"Anyone caught in the act of stealing, or if it is proven that they were stealing, will be publicly shot!"
Then it says "Death to fascism - freedom to the people."
then the date and the name of the Commander in that sector.

[Comrade Trollface]

and a few leftist whom I had respected (no longer) made the case that because we had so few activists willing to show up and work that we shouldn't shun or shame her out even though she is likely a thief and liar.Then I say that they should just cut out the middleman and start offering stipends for warm bodies:p
But yeah. Tell everyone in town that she is not to be trusted. Post it on some list servs in case she moves. Provide pictures.
i would find out why she did it. if she's hurting terribly, facing eviction or something equally serious, tell her that next time she should just ask, and her fellow comerades would be willing to help her, just as she'd help them if they were in need.

But yeah. Try that first.

[danyboy27]

i would say it depend of the reason why this person stole the money.
I wouldnt shame someone who stole 500 dollars to pay the rent or get some food.

[Rafiq]

Make money the responsability of groups of people who don't know each other. Don't trust an individual person with the cash, etc.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Leftsolidarity]

I would say expel the member immediately and try to effectively "blacklist" that individual as one to not be trusted. We do that with our commune when dealing with theft from other members or the house in general.

Next step would better solid organization of how to deal with funds. I ve worked with some groups where it was placed in control of 3 people that didn't know each other and at least 2 of them needed to approve the use of funds.

[SocialistBooks]

Thanks to everyone for all the great replies to this thread.