Former Conservatives needed!

[Tim Cornelis]

On another forum, some conservative asserted that socialists tend to be naive and young. I know there are some former conservatives here. My question is, could you help me with this by briefly explaining why you used to be conservative and then turned socialist? And how you look back on your conservative period?

Then I can cite you in that thread. Perhaps the similarity between how those conservatives on that forum see themselves and how you look back on being conservative is similar that it sparks interest in the idea of socialism.

[Vorchev]

I've never encountered a former conservative turn communist in America.

I think what happened with me was cynicism. You become convinced that there's no way to separate good people from bad people, so the best case scenario is expecting everyone to work together.

Maybe he calls communists naive because we don't know what's good out there? He sounds spoiled.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

I was conservative because of family, religion and self hatred which was the result of a rape. (I'm bi, btw) I simply became socialist simply because of how much I'm into computers and technology and because I know their potential to completely change the world and to erase many of the problems facing society as a whole. Overall, I think that once major nations like the US stop basing everything on greed and profits and just start doing things because they're either right or they can help people, I think humanity will naturally progress towards a natural form of socialism, perhaps not necisarily a theoretical socialism like Marxism, Leninism, Libertarian Socialism, etc. As for how I view my political past, I view it like any other thing from my past: a progression.

[Lanky Wanker]

On another forum, some conservative asserted that socialists tend to be naive and young. I know there are some former conservatives here. My question is, could you help me with this by briefly explaining why you used to be conservative and then turned socialist? And how you look back on your conservative period?


There's not much need for this. Just remind them of the fact that conservatives tend to be fairly well off people without the threat of unemployment, debt or homelessness. Maybe then they'll see something in their own claim.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

You can use my transitional story if you wish...

http://www.revleft.com/vb/glenn-lenin-my-t168141/index.html?p=2369958#post2369958

[Ostrinski]

There's not much need for this. Just remind them of the fact that conservatives tend to be fairly well off people without the threat of unemployment, debt or homelessness. Maybe then they'll see something in their own claim.Unfortunately that's not always the case. Social conservatism is still pretty common in the working class, in the US anyway.

[The Fighting_Crusnik]

Unfortunately that's not always the case. Social conservatism is still pretty common in the working class, in the US anyway.

Agreed. I'd have to say that 95% of the people I work with are conservative and then the university I'm now going to has a higher percentage of conservative students than most universities/colleges.

[Tim Cornelis]

You can use my transitional story if you wish...

http://www.revleft.com/vb/glenn-lenin-my-t168141/index.html?p=2369958#post2369958

I was thinking of exactly that.

[Book O'Dead]

On another forum, some conservative asserted that socialists tend to be naive and young. I know there are some former conservatives here. My question is, could you help me with this by briefly explaining why you used to be conservative and then turned socialist? And how you look back on your conservative period?

Then I can cite you in that thread. Perhaps the similarity between how those conservatives on that forum see themselves and how you look back on being conservative is similar that it sparks interest in the idea of socialism.


What is a conservative?

[Lanky Wanker]

Unfortunately that's not always the case. Social conservatism is still pretty common in the working class, in the US anyway.

I suppose I'm referring mainly to the UK then if we've all seen the terror that our beautiful con-dem coalition can unleash.

[Eagle_Syr]

Does a Fascist count?

[Red Commissar]

I am going to take "conservative" here in the American sense. I'm not sure why you posted this in OI though.


Well, being raised in Texas goes a long way towards making you conservative. It is as far as states go in the United States the most solidly Republican one with political weight to boot. At any rate the interesting thing was with my family was right up until the late 90s they were fairly "liberal", at least in the sense that they voted straight Democrat which was odd in a strongly conservative area we were living in. While Texas still had some old Democrat holdouts from its previous era, a lot of new communities were already forming Republican strongholds. They last voted for a Democrat in the 2000 elections for Al Gore- I remember an informal "poll" our 4th (or maybe 5th?) grade class took to see if they knew who their parents were voting for, I was among the few 12% whose parents were voting Gore. For what ever reason they switched to Dubya in 2004 McCain in 2008, though I think this was mostly because they were in favor of the war in Iraq though they weren't really neatly fitting into the conservative fold that most Texans here were.

As for myself, I was probably more genuinely conservative than they were. This was probably both in a way my attempt to "differentiate" myself from my parents as well as my own warped conception of the social realities in the United States. I had (for most of my later childhood at least) lived in a pretty good neighborhood and I *thought* all people in the United States could attain this if they worked hard enough. I looked at my father as an example, having come to the country as an immigrant and worked his way out of apartments in rough neighborhoods to a decent house in the suburbs.

So when I was faced with real problems of poverty, homelessness, and what not my instant reaction was that these people simply didn't work hard enough. I got into a mindset that social programs and the like were being weighed down by people who gamed the system and didn't work while people like my father and mother took up heavy hours to get things moving. I saw them as free loaders and felt that the government should back out of welfare even more so that they would have motivation to "work". I really didn't have a conception of unemployment/underemployment and all around shit jobs because again, my perception of America was whitewashed by a suburban life.

The funny thing here is that I had quite the opposite experience many people had. My family, though socially "traditional" in some ways, was more "liberal" than conservative in the American sense. They weren't party members though, so when they voted it was typically over a narrow minded single issue (who would be better for economic health)? Sometimes even over idiotic things like perceptions over the person's character, I know for sure my mother had voted for Bush in 2004 in great part due to her dislike of John Kerry as a person, since she like many others who voted Republican saw Kerry as a distant political "elite" out of step with "real" Americans. This was the main thing that rubbed off on me, so I would, with great help from my scatterbrained teenage mind, view political candidates accordingly.

I didn't like homosexuals, because my perception of them was shaped by the media coverage of pride parades. When I was in high school, I remember seeing students tearing down GSA posters in between classes and I just watched them do it and laughed. I was of the opinion that Mexicans and other "illegal" immigrants were too lazy to wait, and this was even more idiotic considering my mother had been stuck waiting for a visa to come here in the 80s because of the messed up system that took some years (AFAIK she left in 84 but was not able to come to the US until 88 legally). But again, like with my father, I thought if my mother could wait anyone else could too.

Then there were the usual tirades I'd get into about Mexicans "leaching" off services, and I would often sigh to my self when I'd see some of my Mexican peers get the free/reduced lunches in line. By the time I entered into high school I began to associate with other like-minded "conservatives", though most of our beliefs were mainly situated on how much we hated Democrats more than anything concrete. I had also begun to develop a particular hate for socialism and communism due to some of my Asian friends- some of them from South Korea, Vietnamese expats, or pro-KMT types from Taiwan (though I didn't know that then) who hated communists with a passion. Interestingly I had been unable to differentiate between some of the Chinese from the mainland who were either ambivalent or supportive of the PRC between those from Taiwan who were usually anti-PRC because I thought that all "Chinese" were the same politically.

The main thing honestly that finally drove me away from conservatism started about when I was 18. I had been growing steadily more political since I was 13- as you might infer from the things I'd get ticked off over (welfare, immigration, etc) I was already "aware" of some hot political issues, more than the usual student at least. I'd say by that point I was in the mold of a right-wing populist in the strand of Pat Buchanan, where most of my anger was mostly directed towards my perception of liberals as elites and the flaws of welfare being a drain on the economy, and the effects of free trade on the US economy. I had an idealistic conception of small businesses as being the engine of American progress.

Anyways, I had seen my fellow conservative "friends" were two-faced in that while they preached about how they were real Americans, most "Americans" didn't live the comfortable middle-class lifestyle we had. It got annoying after awhile seeing them preach about how they were somehow different from these "elites" they bashed- did they not live in a well maintained suburb? Did they not live in one of the few places where public education was actually good? Did they not get brand new cars as soon as they hit 16?

My right-wing populist thing kicked in here and I broke with them, thought they weren't "real" conservatives. This freed me from their input on matters and left me to form my own opinions (in another time, I would have probably been a tea bagger :laugh: ). This was probably the most significant thing that happened since I was now able to go and look at these things on my own. I had previously relied on learning about recent events through them- but now if I needed to keep up, I had to do it on my own.

What broke me from conservatives by this point was really just reading and becoming more knowledgeable about issues. I read up on a lot more things I was learning and began to see that I had been mislead on a lot of things. In the Free-Trade issue I had eventually reached the conclusion that despite the posturing of right-wing populists bashing things made in China and Wal-Mart, they had not been offering any real solutions. And as embarrassed as I am to say it, I was influenced (in a small way) by that one South Park episode where they burn down the wal-mart parody and go to their local small business, only to have that same small business in time become another Wal-Mart.

I must add here that during the 90s conservatives weren't completely in line with the neoliberal turn that Reagan had caused, and some were not as gaga about free trade and free markets. Some had still seen the importance of some basic regulation, utilities control, and public education while feeling that welfare programs were unnecessary. Anyways...

Looking at my prior social conservatism, I reached the conclusion that in the end, does any of this affect me? Why should I care if someone smokes this or drinks that? Why should I care about who gets married? How does this even matter? The immigration issue was a bit harder for me to shake off, but in great part due to my own family's difficulties with the system my view softened to the more "liberal" reform position.

My parents also became concerned about my own odd hatred for the poor and made it a point for me to visit with them to our less "fortunate" relatives who lived in poor parts of the DFW metroplex. I didn't know that was their intent then, but this was a wake up call for me to see how good I had it, and to see that not all "poor" was in the mold of lazy people and welfare cheats that I had somehow acquired. This was further cemented with some trips overseas to visit family- I had done this even when I was younger, but I had hated these trips and not paid attention. Being older I was more aware of how privileged I was, and this began to call into question (for me, at least) why my father was able to get what he did in the States while his relatives back home weren't able to, despite a similar work ethic and education level. We had visited some other relatives and family friends in Europe, and I contrasted the way some of them lived to the ones we knew in the States. The latter typically had more "stuff", but their opportunities were incredibly limited. My relatives in Europe, while not "rich" in any sense, had been able to go through school and university and be on their way. This, compared to some of my relatives who had just managed to complete high school and never went on to University, or dropped out and went into crime, was a big contrast. Yet to me the United States seemed to be a better place to live- why were they worse off there? This is not to say some of those people I knew in Europe all lived perfect and ideal lives- most were in "bad" parts of town, some had been stuck in perpetual lower rungs, some went into crime. On the whole though, they seemed to be better off with the opportunities presented to them, despite not getting a house and "stuff" that we had here.

My last year in high school was an 2007-2008 year, and thus in the middle of election fever. Even though school environments are largely apathetic, during presidential elections at least this can sometimes change and you can see more conversation on the issue. Lot of students were parroting what their parents or friends were telling them, or what they had learned, and in most cases a combination of the two. I had begun to get disgusted by some of the messed up stuff around Obama about whether or not he was a "real" American, which began in the later stages of the Democratic Primaries.

It kind of caused an internal crisis for me because I wondered, if they didn't think Obama was an American, would they think I was an American if I was in the position? I was born in the US, yet both my parents were born overseas. I had a last name that ended in a vowel. I was, beyond my appearance, a fairly "American" person- I had a normal accent, I was in line with a lot of the cultural norms, and online I generally seemed to be a normal American. Would these same people do the same to me? It seems stupid now, but it really did throw my head in a loop.

Then there was all the discussion about "socialism". I still hated socialism, but I was confused about what it was. Listening to the conversation on the media, it was always framed as a matter of taxes, social services/ welfare, and regulation, which didn't make sense to me at all. Where would we draw the line then? How much regulation would be socialism? How much taxes would be socialism? Welfare (by this point all the rage was about healthcare). It all seemed utterly subjective to me on where to draw the line, and I arrived at the conclusion that by different standards nearly every government in the world could be considered "socialist".

That being said I didn't really care for Obama all that much. My parents, ever loyal to their Clinton love of the 90s, were pushing hard for Hillary and didn't care much for McCain (though they ended up voting for the later anyways it seems, but by father by this point had become disillusioned with the politics in the country). I would have been eligible to vote too in the 2008 season, but I had no motivation to vote. I simply didn't care for anyone, and I was unsure where I fit politically.

My first year at college mainly allowed me to clarify my views. I had kind of slid into that vague territory of political "independent" that people in the US like the call themselves but often don't realize what it means. Whereas now I view the designation as simply saying you have no party affiliation, for myself and many others it was a political ideology in its own that was a vague centrism. I dabbled in libertarianism off a misconception that they were "open-minded", as well as a recommendation from a Ron Paul fanatic friend of mine, but found they had the same blind faith in free markets that had turned me off from conservatives in the first place.

Though I was a science major (biology), I read up on a lot of history too. Not only did I see the checkered past of the United States that matched all the "bad" that the Soviets did, but I also saw the effects of capitalism at its worse with the Gilded Age. In my spare time I read alot- sci-fi primarily. While sci-fi can be a mixed bag politically, there's always the overall tone of science as a means of progress, which I liked, and saw that the conservatives in my university were often going into diatribes about evolution and casting doubt on science. I had never even been taught evolution in high school and never got a mention of it in University... despite most of our science faculty strongly believing in it, they avoided mention of it so as to prevent a "controversy". About this time the State Board of Education was charging full own to screw up both history and science to suit a tea-bagger view and "outing" teachers with an "agenda", that is teaching evolution and the United States "bad" side in history... but I digress.

I also read some fiction books, because I felt that I wasn't well-read enough. Mostly focused on classics, some of which did affect me greatly like Charles Dickens and Mark Twain novels. However, four books in particular really made me think.

1. An American Tragedy, Theodor Dreiser
2. The Jungle, Upton Sinclair
3. Les Miserables, Victor Hugo
4. Germinal, Emile Zola

These four novels shared a common theme of exploring the effects of capitalism on the lower rungs of society. In An American Tragedy, Dreiser takes the life of a boy who grew up in a religious missionary family who sought to break out and become something. He goes off to his uncle's place when he grows up to work at his factory, but becomes entranced by the upper middle-class lifestyle of the people living in that community. In his drive to become one of them, he does some pretty bad things, and by the end of the novel, you are presented with a stark contrast as to what his desire to become "rich" had done to him.

The Jungle I was already familiar with, but only in history class as that it had motivated the US to form the FDA. I didn't know going into it the novel would infact be an exploration of a (fictional) Lithuanian immigrant's life in Chicago's meat factories, and it affected me to see how the protagonist went through being scammed to buy a house, the horrors of the factory, and the utter disdain people had for his community.

Les Miserables was kind of in the vein of Dickens novels in that they involved sympathetic accounts of underclass people. There was also the unique situation (for me at least) where a man of the law ended up becoming the antagonist of sorts. It really made me think at least about my previous white and black view of things.

Finally, Germinal I came upon by accident while looking for Les Miserables. Emile Zola was known to me from world history, but I was unaware of anything he had done beyond writing J'accuse in response to the Dreyfus Affair. Germinal was a pretty grim account to me of the class tensions in a mining community that explode into a strike and other things.

This just all around made me reach the conclusion, then, that capitalism, while beneficial to some, relegated a considerable part of the population to living unfulfilling lives. The latter three of these novels explored socialism to some extent and made me believe that this was a better approach to the world's problems. I re-evaluated my prior stance and felt that "socialism" was different from the issues of the Soviet Union, China, NK, Cuba, etc.

I had emerged as a scatter-brained left social democrat, and I gradually read up on other famous socialists whereupon I discovered that Marx wasn't actually a bad guy and many people I had not know were socialists (Einstein). I clinged onto the title of "Democratic Socialist" and had an odd conception that I believe could be best described as state capitalist, where I thought (still) small businesses could coexist with a nationalized industry at top, and this would be good for everyone.

By this point I stumbled onto Revleft, and thankfully I didn't spout out any of this or I would have probably been restricted and never come back, and probably would have rebounded out of socialism. I learned a lot reading posts here and the debates, even the stupid ones, and began to circulate on Marxists.org a lot to read up on documents. My view solidified into a more concrete Marxist one, and I backed off on the prior scatterbrained view. I began to realize the nature of private ownership and the way a worker could be exploited. By 20 or so I had probably become more of a Marxist, and shortly afterwards began to read through Capital.

Two years later, here I am.

[The Red Hammer and Sickle]

I was a conserveative because that was what I was taught that all "smart" and "good" people were. (That sounds silly, I know). I turned communist because I became interested in what communism was/is after watching a surprisingly neutral documentary about Lenin on the History Channel. (Ya they still put on a some history shows). I started reading about who Marx, Lenin, Stalin etc., and I read the Manifesto. At that point a you could say I was sold on communism, did you see what I did there?:laugh: I look back on my conserveative days as when I was naive.

[Anarcho-Brocialist]

I was a Conservative during my youth. Military service, GOP rallies, FOX news observer etc. Once I grew up, and seen the world through the eyes of the working man/woman, and figured out I was nothing but a pawn to keep the system alive, I, if you will, converted to Socialism.

[#FF0000]

I was p. conservative through most of high school.

Then the more I read and the more I experienced, the redder I got.

So yeah.

EDIT: honestly you don't even have to find a bunch of examples for this. He's engaging in some pretty basic ad-hominem here, trying to dismiss people who have a certain political viewpoint because of what age they might be and their perceived lack of experience without ever having to engage anyone's points directly.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Reminds me of that fucking irritating Churchill quote. You probably know the one I mean.

OK, so I'm 25 years old now. When is this massive paradigm shift in my political position supposed to start happening, according to the Daily Mail-reading types who repeat that shit?

I certainly don't feel any more conservative, in fact I'm still convinced that utterly smashing the capitalist price system and replacing it with something better from below is the best general course of action.

[Black_Rose]

Reminds me of that fucking irritating Churchill quote. You probably know the one I mean.

OK, so I'm 25 years old now. When is this massive paradigm shift in my political position supposed to start happening, according to the Daily Mail-reading types who repeat that shit?

I certainly don't feel any more conservative, in fact I'm still convinced that utterly smashing the capitalist price system and replacing it with something better from below is the best general course of action.

He advocated using poison gas on the Kurds, just like Saddam. That quote is nice to use against anyone who trots out the old Churchill chestnut.

It is a "scientific expedient... should not be prevented by the prejudices of those who do not think clearly"

[Tim Cornelis]

Reminds me of that fucking irritating Churchill quote. You probably know the one I mean.

OK, so I'm 25 years old now. When is this massive paradigm shift in my political position supposed to start happening, according to the Daily Mail-reading types who repeat that shit?

I certainly don't feel any more conservative, in fact I'm still convinced that utterly smashing the capitalist price system and replacing it with something better from below is the best general course of action.

That quote has been thrown around in that particular thread I'm talking about three times now.

[Ostrinski]

That quote only holds water if the foundation of your politics is strictly moral in the first place.

[fabian]

Or one could be a conservative socialist.

[hatzel]

Or one could be a conservative socialist.

Or not.

[fabian]

Or not.

[Revolution starts with U]

Or not.

Wait... am I doing it wrong? :huh:

[Vorchev]

Or one could be a conservative socialist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Tory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism

[Tim Cornelis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Tory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism

What are those links supposed to prove? "Red Tory-ism" and "distributism" are not socialist, they promote small, privately owned businesses.

[fabian]

Yes, concerning Red Tories, Canadians have had some conservative progressives in mainstream politics.

Anyways, Tolstoyans and Gandhians are ultra-conservative (I've noticed a lot of people here like to use "conservative" for "ascetic"), Parisian communards were morally conservative, as were a bunch of utopian socialists, also Leonard Nelson's ISK and the early revolutionary Marxists.

[Total]

the churchill quote
you mean the one about having a heart and when you grow up a brain..?
if so, i didn't know it was churchill's, just curious..

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

the churchill quote
you mean the one about having a heart and when you grow up a brain..?
if so, i didn't know it was churchill's, just curious..

That's the one.

I've always thought that saying did have the merest grain of truth in it, in that yesterday's progressive positions can become tomorrow's conservative positions. In other words, it's not so much that older people are conservative as it is that older people have been left further behind by the constantly evolving social zeitgeist.

[Vorchev]

What are those links supposed to prove? "Red Tory-ism" and "distributism" are not socialist, they promote small, privately owned businesses.

Syndicalism doesn't support entrepreneurship?

What about the Soviet Union's New Economic Policy?

Heck, what about this guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Bukharin

[Ocean Seal]

On another forum, some conservative asserted that socialists tend to be naive and young.
Its an irrelevant postulate.
I believe that Labor Days once posted an interesting response, something akin to us adapting to hostile environments. In any case you could also tell them that ironically most of the liberal reformers in Eastern Europe were young kids whereas the old were pro-Eastern Bloc and happy with what they had.



I know there are some former conservatives here. My question is, could you help me with this by briefly explaining why you used to be conservative and then turned socialist? And how you look back on your conservative period?
I wasn't a conservative for too long but I remember supporting the war in Afghanistan, and using that hold at least a quasi-Islamophobic view, and also being pretty homophobic and sexist. But back then I was a child really.
How do I reflect on it?

First, my support for the US War in Afghanistan went away when we went into Iraq (I was about 10 when that happened), and I at least picked up some decent anti-imp views then. What I personally think was that my support for imperialism was a knee-jerk reaction because I had lived in New York all my life. Then I realized that the US war effort was full of shit. I also realized that believing in the boogeyman of radical Islam actually materializes itself into at least a closet racist view, so fuck that.

Then homophobia. I used to believe in the sanctity of marriage, I don't know why because I wasn't religious. But now I realize I don't really care because it doesn't affect me.

Sexism. With the frequent polemics against feminazis coming to take away our rights as men, its hard not to fall into this trap when feminists are mocked and ridiculed. So yeah my introduction to the left took away this bullshit.

TLDR;: At the core of my right wing views lie two things, extreme knee jerk emotional reactions and fear. That's pretty much all there is to it.