Value, use value, and production efficiency / falling rate of profit

[Catma]

(Edited to include thoughts on productivity)

This question probably comes from not truly understanding Marx's definitions on the various types of value.

I can't seem to square these ideas with each other:

-All value comes from labor.

-One reason that the rate of profit falls is due to increased fixed capital. It provides more stuff, but no actual value, due to the removal of labor from the production process. Productivity increases (capacity to produce stuff) but not the amount of stuff produced, and by definition the increase in productivity contributes to the falling rate of profit.

-A communist society would be able to produce more stuff, as it would be unrestrained by the profit motive. The machines could be left on longer, farms would not be subsidized NOT to produce, etc... "overproduction" would cease to be an issue until all need for a product was easily met, meaning it ceases to be an issue at all. Productivity can rise - the ability to produce more stuff with less labor - and more stuff would simply be produced, if necessary.

How is a communist society able to get "value" out of things produced with less labor? Does labor only produce exchange-value, while any type of production can produce use-value (though some labor may be necessary)? What other reasons are there for the falling rate of profit?

[ckaihatsu]

I'd like to point out a discrepancy here -- are you acknowledging that 'overproduction' is real and that it is an excess of stuff, or not?





[I]ncreased fixed capital [...] provides more stuff




Productivity increases (capacity to produce stuff) but not the amount of stuff produced




"overproduction" would cease to be an issue


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-A communist society would be able to produce more stuff, as it would be unrestrained by the profit motive. The machines could be left on longer, farms would not be subsidized NOT to produce, etc... "overproduction" would cease to be an issue until all need for a product was easily met, meaning it ceases to be an issue at all. Productivity can rise - the ability to produce more stuff with less labor - and more stuff would simply be produced, if necessary.

How is a communist society able to get "value" out of things produced with less labor? Does labor only produce exchange-value, while any type of production can produce use-value (though some labor may be necessary)? What other reasons are there for the falling rate of profit?


Exchange-based economics, using valuations externalized onto items, is specific to the capitalist mode of production. A revolutionary and post-capitalist economics would *not* benefit from adhering to such an antiquated relic. It would be better to think in terms of use-values *only* when referencing communist-type production.

[Lynx]

Reducing the need for labour reduces consumer spending.

[Teacher]

-One reason that the rate of profit falls is due to increased fixed capital. It provides more stuff, but no actual value, due to the removal of labor from the production process. Productivity increases (capacity to produce stuff) but not the amount of stuff produced, and by definition the increase in productivity contributes to the falling rate of profit.

I'm not sure what you mean by "productivity increases" but the "amount of stuff" does not increase. Productivity increasing = more stuff being made, but all the new fixed capital and labor-saving technology removes labor from the productive process and thus reduces the amount of value created (since value comes from labor time).

I think the counter-intuitive part of the formula here is that we typically associate higher productivity = more stuff = more profits, using standard capitalist thinking.

These are hard concepts to grasp and I am not even sure if I understand them correctly to be honest. I think it helps to always think of value-creation as an inherently social process. Socially necessary labor creates value. It kind of makes sense that the more you remove labor power from the productive process, the less value can be realized (and it seems that is what the empirical data shows).


-A communist society would be able to produce more stuff, as it would be unrestrained by the profit motive. The machines could be left on longer, farms would not be subsidized NOT to produce, etc... "overproduction" would cease to be an issue until all need for a product was easily met, meaning it ceases to be an issue at all. Productivity can rise - the ability to produce more stuff with less labor - and more stuff would simply be produced, if necessary.

How is a communist society able to get "value" out of things produced with less labor? Does labor only produce exchange-value, while any type of production can produce use-value (though some labor may be necessary)? What other reasons are there for the falling rate of profit?

I don't think I can coherently try to answer this at the moment, but I think building a communist society in which the law of value no longer operates will be a long and fitful process with a lot of trial and error.