NATO

[El Commandante]

Before I set forward my case I want to give you some facts:

Every second (yes second) £10,000 pounds is spent my members of the alliance maintaining it.

Everyday 18,000 people starve to death.

Now as you can see it doesn't take a great economist to realise something is amiss here. Why do we spend so much money on this force which has never seen the action it was intended for. Well naively we don't realise it is for our defence from aggressors, and as some say it works, we have never been attacked. But by that same logic my watch protects me from vampires, as long as I've been wearing it I've never been attacked by one. How you can see how much of a waste it is.

We live in a relatively peaceful climate now (excluding current events) and there is no super power against the West, the Russians, former "enemies" want to join. The Chinese have joined the WTO, the North Koreans are slowly destroying themselves and Castro is an old man now. So what do we need to be protected from, some say globalisation, but isn't this the force of globalistion.

Think of all that could be done with it's abolishment, an end to world hunger, repairs to the welfare state, better education, no waiting lists for operations, free accomodation for the elderly. The list is endless...

Please add your views.

[Moskitto]

I think a greater evil is food mountains and destruction of manufactured goods.

When counterfit clothing is found, It is destroyed. Their are people who freeze to death because they don't have clothes.

When there is too much food it accumulates in food mountains, It is inevitably destroyed. There are people who are starving because they don't have any food.

Water is just poored away, yet in Africa there are serious droughts.

does anybody see a hipocracy.

[El Commandante]

That is one of the greatest parodies in the current situation, do you know the two excuses that they use not giving the food to starving people in places like Africa. They want to have the chance to work for themselves and don't want to live on hand outs, fair enough but they need somewhere to start from. Also the found there is not to their tastes, no starving person would turn down any food and don't you think it is up to them to decide what they do and do not like.

What it really is, is that they rich countries of the world do not want to lose money. In the short term the transporting and food costs. But in the long term the country may develop and this could lead to competition in areas such as manufacturing. They decide on live and death for a little bit of possible profit in the future. It is sickening!

As for the clothes it just shows what an influence the big designer brands have, why should people have to go cold when there are mountains of clothes for them to wear. It is an extreme case of corporate madness.

[DaNatural]

good point el che, i agree with you guys 100 percent, so many things can be abolished so that we can use our money and resources for the poor. but feeding starving people doesnt make money guys. its pathetic, im not sure if you were aware of this, but the government pays farmers to store things such as wheat so there isnt a surplus of it in the market. this would make the price drop. so instead of giving excess food away we store it to keep the prices high, unbelievable. we have to remember that these politicians although educated, are only educated in economics and not the arts and sciences like individuals like lenin and che were. or marx. they dont understandpeople so there is no empathy for the people. when somone here in ontario asked our former premier mike harris what his favorite book was, he was stumped. he settled on th hardy boy novels. wtf is that? uneducated money grubbing idiots what can we expect. things have to change

"Ive seen man build machines without treating their own disorders." peace

[Moskitto]

I'm actually doing Business Studies GCSE which is pretty odd for a communist.

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Moskitto on 12:17 am on Nov. 21, 2001
I'm actually doing Business Studies GCSE which is pretty odd for a communist.

thats okay mosk, one of my courses right now is international trade regulation. i.e. studying nothing but NAFTA and the WTO. that's just as weird for a socialist.

[Kez]

im doing my second year of GCSE business studies, and im a commie, and its not odd u silly cow (im only jokin kidda)
Marx was an economist, and i think its fair to say that he was a commie, so draw ur own conclusion, mine being that communism is a form of economy (as well as other things) and it does us know harm to know and learn and use our enemy, capitalism.

comrade kamo

[Moskitto]

im doing my second year of GCSE business studies, and im a commie, and its not odd u silly cow (im only jokin kidda)
Marx was an economist, and i think its fair to say that he was a commie, so draw ur own conclusion, mine being that communism is a form of economy (as well as other things) and it does us know harm to know and learn and use our enemy, capitalism.

comrade kamo

yeah that's true.

anyway most people in my business studies group are only there because they don't want to do history or geography and think that taxes are where the government steals money off you and gives it to immagrants.

[Freiheit]

that nato was build to protect the "free, fair, blablabal,..." western world of the udssr, it was the opposite of the 'pact of warsaw' (i dont know the english name). the russian lost the cold war, the nato isnt needed anymore.
there can still be an alliance (if it must be, i dont think so, but ...). but an alliance (if you are attacked, i will help you), that is only a paper, why do they need all this money etc.

my history teacher in switzerland told me:
because of the nato the americans (who pay the most) can listen to any phonecall in europe, even if i talk with my girlfriend, if they wanna hear it, they can.

that is quite unfair etc. (industry spying)

but we are used that the americans do this kind of stuff.

[Nickademus]

actually NATO is still active. I belive NATO was considereing, or may even be involved in the bombings and teh war in Afghanisan. but i agree, the purpose it was created for has passed and i do agree that NATO should be abolished. However, having said that, I think many Candaian sare afraid of abolishing NATO. Canada doesn't have the best army and if we were ever attacked, although it seems hihgly unlikely, we would definately want the United States (largely because of their military prowess) to be on our side. THe US may be offended were Canadians to suggest the abolition of NATO.

THerefore i think we are stuck with it for a while.

[Kez]

NATO crushed freedom of speech in Yugoslavia by bombing the tv station and killing people, including the janitors!
imagine what would happen if the Yugoslavs were to bomb the bbc station in london and say it was spewing propaganda.
Surely if you are attacked then u have a right to some Propaganda.

comrade kamo

[CommieBastard]

"in war the first casualty is truth"
always used to just mean that the newspapers would sp[ew lies, i suppose now the americans are starting to make it literally true...

as for business studies courses, business studies & economics gives a major insight into the way the current system works, invaluable to those of the left.

I myself did a GCSE in business studies, last year i finished my AS course in it, and i am currently doing an A2 in it. All you really need to pass the tests is a bit of insight to see past the superficial, oh and an ability to bullshit. I suppose that's why i got an A, because i am THE king of bullshitting :)

[Freiheit]

Quote: from TavareeshKamo on 12:10 pm on Nov. 22, 2001
NATO crushed freedom of speech in Yugoslavia by bombing the tv station and killing people, including the janitors!
imagine what would happen if the Yugoslavs were to bomb the bbc station in london and say it was spewing propaganda.
Surely if you are attacked then u have a right to some Propaganda.

comrade kamo


i never heared this arguement, it is actually not bad. but i have another opinion:

this yugoslaivian tv channel = propaganda for a bad
dictator

destroying of tv channel = almost no free speech

no free speech = no propaganda

[Anonymous]

you know its funny Bush goes on and on about how times have changed, russsia is not the enemy, no question about that somke`em out of there caves hillbilly bullshit and yet NATO is as strong as ever. If its time to scrap the aint balistics treaty its time to scrap NATO. after all aren`t the commie baby eater dead? well then we can all sleep in peace while Bush watch out for the evil doers.

(Edited by El_Che at 8:40 am on Nov. 23, 2001)

[Freiheit]

Quote: from El_Che on 1:39 am on Nov. 23, 2001
you know its funny Bush goes on and on about how times have changed, russsia is not the enemy, no question about that somke`em out of there caves hillbilly bullshit and yet NATO is as strong as ever. If its time to scrap the aint balistics treaty its time to scrap NATO. after all aren`t the commie baby eater dead? well then we can all sleep in peace while Bush watch out for the evil doers.

(Edited by El_Che at 8:40 am on Nov. 23, 2001)


good job, i agree

[Moskitto]

I've found a website that says that Milosevic wasn't actually a dictator because he had elections, I mean yeah it took him about a week to go. And he had some dodgy dealings and was bad, But Nixon had some dodgy dealings and it showed the system works.

Anyway. NATO are cowards, In Kosovo (Don't pretend nothing happened because It wasn't nice) there was ethnic cleansing going on, women being put into rape camps and people being used as human shields.

Yet In China it's a lot worse and does NATO do anything? No, becuase China Vs NATO = WW3, NATO Vs Yugoslavia = Chance to destroy a growing economy.

[Freiheit]

1) yugoslavia wasnt a growing economy
2) the nato paid to rebuild it.

but its true nato = cowards

[vox]

Freiheit,

If you're interested in the subject, I recommend To Kill A Nation (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1859847765/qid=1006575558/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_2_1/102-5333655-6548142) by Parenti. It has some interesting background about the non-aligned FRY that I think you, and others, may find revealing.

vox

[Freiheit]

thanx vox

[Nele Aiaots]

I am quite sure that it is better to give education than to give food. They should work themselves and to learn. Some intelligent counties have already started with it. Like France for example.
I am quite sure that rich countries couldn't never give them enough food, and the progress won't come with giving food, they need to develop.
That's my opinion!;)

[Freiheit]

education is needed as well as food.
without food, in africa would much more people die.

[Maaja]

I do agree with Nele, as she is my best friend;) and of course not only because of that. maybe she just didn't explain it very well. Education is more important than food. Because if we give them just food then we have to give more and more food forever. They'll live more, have more babies, babies won't die and we have to give more, more, more and more food. But if we give them more education than now then they'll learn how to make food themselves and how not to have so many babies. It can sound banal but it is the only way I could say it. I don't feel i'd love to philosophy about it today! But of course they need food too, it isn't just the most important thing! It is important for their present but not for their future. Education will develop them, food can be a degenerator too...
Maaja

[Freiheit]

yes, education is probably more important, but we shouldnt stop to send food to the third world.

[Maaja]

Of course we shouldn't stop. Because they can't learn if they are hungry... But sending only food is also like making more problems for ourselves and for them. I am not 100% sure but I think that many countries are sending only food, or almost only food. I know too that France sends almost only education and much of that.
Does anyone have much information about that what country sends what? I would be grateful.
Maaja

[Freiheit]

but there are many ngos (like world vision) which educate the people, world vision, dont send water, with there money the build a well, and teach how to build it. they local governments i. e. in the sahel, spend money to teach about correct agriculture (stock etc.)

[Nickademus]

Quote: from Freiheit on 10:26 pm on Nov. 24, 2001
but there are many ngos (like world vision) which educate the people, world vision, dont send water, with there money the build a well, and teach how to build it. they local governments i. e. in the sahel, spend money to teach about correct agriculture (stock etc.)

a gree that this is the best possible way to help these countries grow. but help through by teaching them independence

[Freiheit]

back to the topic.

my statement: THE NATO MUST BE RESOLVED!

1) the cold war is over
2) it is only a tool for american imperialism
3) nato-countries must have a certain level of troups and amred infrastructure. it is not right to spend billions in weapons and arms and in other countries people die because they have nothing to eat etc.
4) there is no use for it, instead of nato, we need a reformed un.

[ComradeFubar]

NATO= cannonfoder for american interests
If a Nato country(excpet for britan maybee) in europe was to be invaded then i could just see America siting back and only giving worded suport to the country involved.
Secondly a large scale conflict would eventuly result in Nuclear Holacost, so why waste all this money on milliatary infustracture if its gona be blown away in a mater of minutes ounce the mushrooms start blooming.

[Freiheit]

youre right fubar, the americans wouldnt help, maybe after the countrie is flat and destroyed. so that economy is destroyed as well, and the americans have less concournece.
actually after they would spend some money, but the ecenomy needs years to be rebuilded.

[El Commandante]

Education is most definately the best way for improvement to come to a country, because then they can work themselves out of poverty and not have to rely on the outside world. But America isn't going to support this kind of effort, if they do then they will eventually have competition in the production industries and their companies (Nike) would have to pay higher wages because the country has skilled workers.

Having a country which is poor and has no means of helping it self is much more useful to America and the other countries above the Brantt line then a country which has a skilled labour force.

[Moskitto]

1) yugoslavia wasnt a growing economy

therefore bomb them so they don't become one.

NATO hasn't even helped Britain, Remember the Faulklands war?

[El Commandante]

A country that was meant to be a supposed ally (France, not a member of NATO) supplied the Argentinians with weapons, namely the Exocet anti ship missle which destroyed a number of ships with the loss of crewmen.

It doesn't seem like a particularly strong alliance, it didn't even agree on what to do in Iraq so a new coalition was formed.

[Freiheit]

Quote: from Moskitto on 10:55 am on Nov. 25, 2001

1) yugoslavia wasnt a growing economy

therefore bomb them so they don't become one.

NATO hasn't even helped Britain, Remember the Faulklands war?


are you pro milosevic, or what?

[Moskitto]

Quote: from Freiheit on 6:52 pm on Nov. 25, 2001

Quote: from Moskitto on 10:55 am on Nov. 25, 2001

1) yugoslavia wasnt a growing economy

therefore bomb them so they don't become one.

NATO hasn't even helped Britain, Remember the Faulklands war?


are you pro milosevic, or what?

Surprisingly enough, No. I have found a website (a left-wing one) which is so anti-American that it calls Milosevic the "Rightful leader of Yugoslavia" it calls his election defeat where refused to leave and the people started protesting a "Military Coup." And says he shouldn't be tried for war crimes because he's good because America's bad and he opposes America.

People please, Blindly following one thing because it's against another thing is the worst thing you can do. Would Hitler be better than America then?

[Son of Scargill]

The Falklands War,the CIA gave us a lot of information during the"War".The fact that it was a load of bollocks is not the point,the US thought they were helping us.As for the French selling exocets(all six of them).They sold them before the conflict began,we sold Argentina Land Rovers during the "war"We also trained 6 of the 12 pilots who delivered the 6 exocets to us.Yes 12 combat pilots against the RAF.War is fucked up,I'm sure you'll agree.