The Need of a Vanguard from a Comrade in Egypt

[jookyle]

This was posted on a communist group page on facebook. A quote from an Egyptian comrade:


‎"The lesson from Egypt: a revolution without a vanguard is at best 'leaderless' for only a short amount of time. Eventually the forces of reaction will take the lead if revolutionaries aren't able/prepared to do so. And us, after the uprising, Egyptians were given the choice between political Islam or the old regime. What a disappointment." - Comrade 'McAwhsum'

Original page: http://www.facebook.com/pages/I-Acknowledge-the-Necessity-of-Communism/396492153699992

Thoughts, comments, etc?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The revolution was confined to a political struggle, as far as I can tell. It did not bear the hallmarks of a Socialist revolution as there was limited economic struggle. It seemed to explode spontaneously under the yoke of political and economic dictatorship; its target was it seems, explicitly the political class and its anger was directed very narrowly towards the current (at the time) political leadership. The success of the revolution was judged as to whether the current (At the time) leaders were deposed, not whether the bourgeoisie was deposed, or even the political class was deposed. In that sense, it can be seen as a political revolution devoid of class consciousness and thus devoid of Socialist content. So the question is, in this instance: would a Socialist vanguard (presumably Bolshevik Party version 2012 is what we have in mind here) have led to heightened class consciousness before and during the revolution?

Well, it is really hard to answer in the affirmative here. What would a vanguard have brought? Its supporters would say greater discipline. So what. Within the space of a few months of the revolution, this would have made no difference as the aims of the revolution to start with were pretty narrow, as I said before, confined to deposing the current political leaders via extra-electoral means.

Secondly, is it possible that, within a few months, Vanguard leadership, education and agitation would have been so strong as to:

a) alter the class content of the revolution, and
b) lead to a fluid change to the aims of the revolution, to a more ambitious strategy?

I simply cannot see how this could be so.

For me, the only way that 2011 in Egypt could have been a more class conscious situation is if working class institutions (trade unions, statutory rights for workers, some sort of community, non-workplace organisation of workers along class lines) had already existed. Only then could the sort of spontaneity we saw in 2011 actually have led to something a bit more concrete and real, as opposed to the pretty dire outcome we are seeing.

[Red Rabbit]

All I know is, Comrade McAwhsum sounds like a badass name.

[Mr Pink]

Blaming the outcome of the upheavals in the middle east on lack of a vanguard is in my view a rather crude and dishonest statement, the problem was that these upheavals were not revolutions, they did not change the economic systems of the places they took place in, they were not workers movements but rather populist movements against dictators without any real social or economic goal.

A vanguard is not necessary for building or directing a working class, an informed, united and pissed off working class is!

These impressive and inspiring uprisings were not against capitalism and blaming the fact they did not topple the global capitalist system on the lack of a vanguard is shallow to say the least.

[wsg1991]

what do you mean by a vanguard party exactly , what it's suppose to do ?

Good intentions , that's what i should say about the free officers movements , in Egypt , when army toppled down the Egyptian Monarchy , and did (1952 -1970 ) some really progressive politics ,

how such revolutionary move of young officers can degenerate so badly ( Sadat ) and it did allow the army to have political control , which is now one of the greatest problems to any revolutionary attempt in Egypt

[Hermes]

I'd have to agree with The Boss, although admittedly my knowledge of theory is not that good.

While a vanguard of those genuinely interested in communism might have added direction and discipline to the movement, I don't think it would be able to give consciousness to the entire or majority working class in Egypt. I think there needs to be some kind of base level of consciousness before such a thing can happen.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Well I mean, viewed right now, a 'communist' vanguard makes no sense, because Egypt, like the other countries that had an 'Arab Spring' revolution in 2011/12, is about as far away from secular Socialist consciousness as you can get. To suggest that the revolutions have failed (viewed through the prism of Marxism) because of the lack of a Bolshevik-style vanguard is a massive anachronism, in terms of putting western values and stages of development onto a part of the world that is simply not there yet.

[MuscularTophFan]

Egypt is a very religious country. I guess after years of secular authoritarian rule Egyptians got sick of it so they thought it would be a great idea to elect the Muslim Brotherhood into power. Iranians did the same mistake. They overthrew a secular autocrat and installed a bunch of right wing religious lunatics into power. Women, homosexuals, minorities religions and non-religious Iranians suffered horribly when the Islamists took over. It's only now that most Iranian realize how much of a horrible mistake 1979 was. I wonder in 30 years from now will Egyptians realize the same mistake they made when they elected the Muslim Brotherhood into power.

Islam is very dangerous for civilization for the fact that it's not just a religion it's a way of life. The concept of separating religion and the state in Islamic is non-existent. The Arab Spring is slowly turning into what I feared it would turn into: an Islamic Spring.

[wsg1991]

Well I mean, viewed right now, a 'communist' vanguard makes no sense, because Egypt, like the other countries that had an 'Arab Spring' revolution in 2011/12, is about as far away from secular Socialist consciousness as you can get. To suggest that the revolutions have failed (viewed through the prism of Marxism) because of the lack of a Bolshevik-style vanguard is a massive anachronism, in terms of putting western values and stages of development onto a part of the world that is simply not there yet.

most of leftists ( left Nationalists and communists ) are scattered , but are regrouping , hamdeen subahi did well in Egypt , right here Hamma hammami , a marxist-leninist (or sort of ) popularity is rising , but he is labeled a atheist ( here communism = Atheism )

what could Tunisian revolution achieve in optimal conditions ( no strong counter revolutionary) is a social democrat capitalist , with a strong position of UGTT (main unions ) even some minister from that union ( happened before ) , restoration of public healthcare , and raise of minimum wages ,Nothing more but that alone is a progress

if you mean sort of Coalition of leftist political parties to assume political responsibility ( through out the electoral system ) , i agree , as long it's not one ideology party ,
it was needed ,

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Egypt is a very religious country. I guess after years of secular authoritarian rule Egyptians got sick of it so they thought it would be a great idea to elect the Muslim Brotherhood into power. Iranians did the same mistake. They overthrew a secular autocrat and installed a bunch of right wing religious lunatics into power. Women, homosexuals, minorities religions and non-religious Iranians suffered horribly when the Islamists took over. It's only now that most Iranian realize how much of a horrible mistake 1979 was. I wonder in 30 years from now will Egyptians realize the same mistake they made when they elected the Muslim Brotherhood into power.

Islam is very dangerous for civilization for the fact that it's not just a religion it's a way of life. The concept of separating religion and the state in Islamic is non-existent. The Arab Spring is slowly turning into what I feared it would turn into: an Islamic Spring.

Right. And Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. aren't ways of life in the US, UK, Israel, India, Tibet etc.?

Sorry but you are on a revolutionary Socialist board, why are you analysing society along ethno-religious lines? Sorry to break it to you, but Islam is in fact, a religion and is a way of life yes, the exact same way that Christianity is a religion and a way of life in the US, Judaism in Israel and so on.

So please don't come along with this Islam-exceptionalist crap, it's not true and is simply feeding the crass, racist propaganda campaign against Islam.

[wsg1991]

Islam is very dangerous for civilization for the fact that it's not just a religion it's a way of life. The concept of separating religion and the state in Islamic is non-existent. The Arab Spring is slowly turning into what I feared it would turn into: an Islamic Spring.

stop here , Religion proved to be a tool , that can reshaped according to it's user's needs . Islam is no difference ,


i suggest your read about Abu Nawas , a famous Poet , that was Bisexual , and a drunkard , who lived under Abbasids , and died naturally
hell they had some atheist groups that openly says they are atheist and anti Islamic bases such as Destiny , or anti soul idea ( Avicenna , the greatest physician of middle era ) , or even Calling Mohamed , the muslim prophet a Liar and fake , this was done by Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi , another great Physician

this people would be torched if they lived somewhere

or Jalal al din Siyouti , this religious figure wrote 4 books ( out of 561 work he did ), about human sexuality , fucking in simpler words , imagine a christian fundamentalist doing that

maybe Islam look very regressive now , but in his history he reached points that no Christian faith did even get close ,

i am saying religion is just a bunch of illogical stuff that can be reshaped according to your needs ,
the same religion that tolerate this people , does now have some very regressive anti Women groups ( Wahhabi ) and ruling class collaborators



EDIT : that guy is a famous Egyptian Koran reader , i forgot his name , and don't know how to delete it

[A Marxist Historian]

Well I mean, viewed right now, a 'communist' vanguard makes no sense, because Egypt, like the other countries that had an 'Arab Spring' revolution in 2011/12, is about as far away from secular Socialist consciousness as you can get. To suggest that the revolutions have failed (viewed through the prism of Marxism) because of the lack of a Bolshevik-style vanguard is a massive anachronism, in terms of putting western values and stages of development onto a part of the world that is simply not there yet.

As people seem to have forgotten, the original driving force behind the revolution was working class upheaval. Egypt has the largest and strongest industrial working class of the region, with if anything more social weight in Egyptian society than the working class had in Tsarist Russia in the year 1917. The Boss's latter day Menshevism represents Eurocentric contempt for non-European revolutionary struggles.

And this has been buried under a polarization between bourgeois secular liberalism and Islamic fundamentalism.

The absence of a working class vanguard party organizing the workers and fighting Islamic fundamentalism, pro-imperialist bourgeois liberalism and narrow Egyptian nationalism has a lot to do with the failure of the Egyptian Revolution. The nearest equivalent would have been the Cliffite Revolutionary Socialists group, which has systematically been backing the Islamic fundamentalists, even arguing for voting for the guy who has just been elected Prez with the permission of the military.

If the RS, which had and probably even still has quite a bit of influence, had acted like Bolsheviks instead of pro-Islamic tailists, then maybe there could be a real working class revolution, or at least a revolutionary pole to organize one in the future.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

what do you mean by a vanguard party exactly , what it's suppose to do ?

Good intentions , that's what i should say about the free officers movements , in Egypt , when army toppled down the Egyptian Monarchy , and did (1952 -1970 ) some really progressive politics ,

how such revolutionary move of young officers can degenerate so badly ( Sadat ) and it did allow the army to have political control , which is now one of the greatest problems to any revolutionary attempt in Egypt

Any movement of "young officers" can at best only be a bourgeois reform movement, as officers are the enforcers of the bourgeois state. And the sainted Nasser in the 1950s spent much of his time suppressing the then very powerful Egyptian workers movement, jailing, murdering and torturing the also then very strong Egyptian Communist Party, despite their sycophancy to him, etc.

-M.H.-

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

As people seem to have forgotten, the original driving force behind the revolution was working class upheaval. Egypt has the largest and strongest industrial working class of the region, with if anything more social weight in Egyptian society than the working class had in Tsarist Russia in the year 1917. The Boss's latter day Menshevism represents Eurocentric contempt for non-European revolutionary struggles.

And this has been buried under a polarization between bourgeois secular liberalism and Islamic fundamentalism.

The absence of a working class vanguard party organizing the workers and fighting Islamic fundamentalism, pro-imperialist bourgeois liberalism and narrow Egyptian nationalism has a lot to do with the failure of the Egyptian Revolution. The nearest equivalent would have been the Cliffite Revolutionary Socialists group, which has systematically been backing the Islamic fundamentalists, even arguing for voting for the guy who has just been elected Prez with the permission of the military.

If the RS, which had and probably even still has quite a bit of influence, had acted like Bolsheviks instead of pro-Islamic tailists, then maybe there could be a real working class revolution, or at least a revolutionary pole to organize one in the future.

-M.H.-

My Menshevism? You're a comedian aren't you. Why are you categorising this along Bolshevik/Menshevik lines? Instead of throwing empty insults around, why don't you actually engage with what i'm saying?

[wsg1991]

very strong Egyptian Communist Party,

-M.H.-

strong communist party ? the communist parties related to USSR didn't have any significant popularity , i can name several reasons

*USSR intervention in WW2 was on French \ England side
*USSR poor positions in Palestinian conflict ( which was later better )
*their solution to Palestinian-Israeli conflict were weird ,
*the fact have some very Elitist rhetoric , which is not suited to largely rural and tribal society ,

there was some communists movements later , after the 1967 humiliating defeat , and modifying several positions , mainly In Palestinian issue , and their approach to arab societies , but they will stay branded atheist

Free officers did not allow the development of any class conscience or independent workers movements (i think this problem may rise with a vanguard party as well ), which was one of the major errors of that regime . it's not Bourgeois 'reformism' , rather state capitalist ( 52 % of the economy was public in the 60ies ) , aggressive nationalization and important public spending , specially in Education (the best of it's time ) .

the blows dealt to workers are much less than the Bourgeois (top bourgeois where eliminated , lower and smaller ones spared ) , Landlords (land reforms) , and Nobles (which were eliminated and lands they own distributed )

[Hit The North]

The nearest equivalent would have been the Cliffite Revolutionary Socialists group, which has systematically been backing the Islamic fundamentalists, even arguing for voting for the guy who has just been elected Prez with the permission of the military.

If the RS, which had and probably even still has quite a bit of influence, had acted like Bolsheviks instead of pro-Islamic tailists, then maybe there could be a real working class revolution, or at least a revolutionary pole to organize one in the future.

-M.H.-

Yes, and if the Egyptian working class had acted like the working class in Russia 1917... But they didn't.

I find it strangely heartening that you would overestimate so much the influence of the RS, an organisation with much weaker roots in the working class than the Bolsheviks had, in order to score a sectarian point. Good effort!

[A Marxist Historian]

My Menshevism? You're a comedian aren't you. Why are you categorising this along Bolshevik/Menshevik lines? Instead of throwing empty insults around, why don't you actually engage with what i'm saying?

You wrote: "putting western values and stages of development onto a part of the world that is simply not there yet."

Calling that Menshevism isn't an insult, it's simply a description. You think that the West is ready for socialist revolution, but the Third World is not. If you're not aware that you are preaching Menshevism, you need to improve your historical education.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

strong communist party ? the communist parties related to USSR didn't have any significant popularity , i can name several reasons

*USSR intervention in WW2 was on French \ England side
*USSR poor positions in Palestinian conflict ( which was later better )
*their solution to Palestinian-Israeli conflict were weird ,
*the fact have some very Elitist rhetoric , which is not suited to largely rural and tribal society ,

there was some communists movements later , after the 1967 humiliating defeat , and modifying several positions , mainly In Palestinian issue , and their approach to arab societies , but they will stay branded atheist

Free officers did not allow the development of any class conscience or independent workers movements (i think this problem may rise with a vanguard party as well ), which was one of the major errors of that regime . it's not Bourgeois 'reformism' , rather state capitalist ( 52 % of the economy was public in the 60ies ) , aggressive nationalization and important public spending , specially in Education (the best of it's time ) .

the blows dealt to workers are much less than the Bourgeois (top bourgeois where eliminated , lower and smaller ones spared ) , Landlords (land reforms) , and Nobles (which were eliminated and lands they own distributed )

You really don't know anything about the Middle East, do you?

The Iraqui Revolution damn near put the Iraqui CP into power in the late '50s, and the Tudeh Party was a pretty serious contender for power in Iran until the CIA overthrow of Mossadegh in 1953.

The Egyptian CP wasn't quite that strong, but it was a big force in the 1940s and 1950s, dominating the then very powerful and militant Egyptian labor movement--until Nasser suppressed independent labor movements and drove the CP underground, killing most of its leaders and many of its members.

Before commenting about the Middle East, you should learn something first.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Yes, and if the Egyptian working class had acted like the working class in Russia 1917... But they didn't.

I find it strangely heartening that you would overestimate so much the influence of the RS, an organisation with much weaker roots in the working class than the Bolsheviks had, in order to score a sectarian point. Good effort!

Yes, they certainly didn't have anything like the influence or roots in the working class of the Bolsheviks.

But in a period of revolutionary turmoil, a revolutionary organization can grow very rapidly. Look at Rosa Luxemburg's Spartacusbund, which probably had no more than a couple hundred members in 1916, and had turned into a German Communist Party with some 100,000 members during the 1918 German Revolution, and even briefly seized power here and there in Germany.

Why did the Egyptian working class not act like the Russian working class, with the Mubarak regime toppling? Lack of revolutionary leadership, that's why. Certainly not for any lack of militancy or desire for struggle.

The RS, which certainly wasn't a revolutionary vanguard but which was better positioned to become one than anyone else, pissed this chance away by supporting the Muslim Brotherhood.

-M.H.-

[wsg1991]

You really don't know anything about the Middle East, do you?

The Iraqui Revolution damn near put the Iraqui CP into power in the late '50s,


you mean THE 14 july FREE OFFICERS iraqi revolution?
i don't know much about it ,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14_July_Revolution
don't seems like they nearly reached power




just like you are overestimating Revolutionary socialist now days do you ?
http://cp-egypt.com/

i don't think it was even close to the Influence of Wafd party or Muslim brotherhood
even in the most secular arab country , Tunisia , the workers movements was largely independent for CP ,
i haven't yet seen any picture of Marx in my Local UGTT (main union ) building ,(SFAX second biggest city in Tunisia) , but seen Arafat , Nasser , even Saddam Hussein
this happens in the country with one of most powerful Labor movement in Arab countries

(It is not an accident that Adeni workers, probably the most advanced section of the Arab working class, do not keep pictures of King Feisal or the Imam of Yemen in their homes, but of Nasser. (Of course it would have been far better if they had pictures of Marx, Lenin and Trotsky.)) this was quoted for an article someone putted a link Here , for Tony Cliff http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1990/10/struggleme.htm


i live in Tunisia , i don't comment the Middle East , i comment arab countries , know the difference , you see for example i don't Know any thing about Turkey or IRAN

[MuscularTophFan]

Right. And Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc. aren't ways of life in the US, UK, Israel, India, Tibet etc.?

Sorry but you are on a revolutionary Socialist board, why are you analysing society along ethno-religious lines? Sorry to break it to you, but Islam is in fact, a religion and is a way of life yes, the exact same way that Christianity is a religion and a way of life in the US, Judaism in Israel and so on.



Not like in Islamic countries. All of those countries you listed have been though years of secularism of their society. For example homosexuality is officially the death penalty in Christianity and Judaism, yet homosexuality isn't the death penalty in USA, UK, Israel, etc. in fact gay marriage is now the law of the land in those countries. Every single country today with the death penalty for homosexuality is Islamic countries. I hate all religion but to to claim "hurrr Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. are all the same exact guies" is naive.

[wsg1991]

Not like in Islamic countries. All of those countries you listed have been though years of secularism of their society. For example homosexuality is officially the death penalty in Christianity and Judaism, yet homosexuality isn't the death penalty in USA, UK, Israel, etc. in fact gay marriage is now the law of the land in those countries. Every single country today with the death penalty for homosexuality is Islamic countries. I hate all religion but to to claim "hurrr Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. are all the same exact guies" is naive.


Sir read about Abu Nawas , a famous poet , bisexual (and cite that in his poems )lived under Abbasid ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nuwas
in Medieval ages where surgeons faced death under Christianity

Read some Fucking arabic medieval age stuff before saying that Please and read my first comment

[MuscularTophFan]

stop here , Religion proved to be a tool , that can reshaped according to it's user's needs . Islam is no difference ,


i suggest your read about Abu Nawas , a famous Poet , that was Bisexual , and a drunkard , who lived under Abbasids , and died naturally
hell they had some atheist groups that openly says they are atheist and anti Islamic bases such as Destiny , or anti soul idea ( Avicenna , the greatest physician of middle era ) , or even Calling Mohamed , the muslim prophet a Liar and fake , this was done by Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi , another great Physician

this people would be torched if they lived somewhere

or Jalal al din Siyouti , this religious figure wrote 4 books ( out of 561 work he did ), about human sexuality , fucking in simpler words , imagine a christian fundamentalist doing that
yes that was when Islam was going though it's golden age in the Islamic world while the Christian west was going though the dark ages.


maybe Islam look very regressive now , but in his history he reached points that no Christian faith did even get close ,
That's the problem. Islam is currently going though a what Christianity went though in the dark ages. I mean there are many Chrisitans in America who don't take their religion seriously. For example my dad is Christian but he makes fun of the concept of the devil, supports abortion, supports gay marriage, masturbates to pornography, etc. And my dad goes to church every Sunday btw. Islam just can't seem to evolve beyond it's primitiveness mindset of the followers of Islam like Christianity did.


i am saying religion is just a bunch of illogical stuff that can be reshaped according to your needs ,
the same religion that tolerate this people , does now have some very regressive anti Women groups ( Wahhabi ) and ruling class collaborators
The problem is those groups that are anti-women are currently running governments, in places like Saudi Arabia and Iran. When Pat Robertson says something in America most people just make fun of him. When a mullah says something to his Muslim congregation they go out and murder someone to death.

Yes I know who Abu Nawas and do wish to know more about him. Do you have any book suggestions about Abu Nawas I could learn more about him?

[MuscularTophFan]

Sir read about Abu Nawas , a famous poet , bisexual (and cite that in his poems )lived under Abbasid ,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Nuwas
in Medieval ages where surgeons faced death under Christianity

Read some Fucking arabic medieval age stuff before saying that Please and read my first comment
Yes that may be true but that still doesn't change the fact that homosexuality is officially the death penalty in Islam. Most countries that criminalize homosexuality are Muslim countries and every country with the death penalty for homosexuals are Islamic countries.

You also didn't metion the fact Abu Nawas was celibate his whole life. He never once fucked another guy. There are no laws against being homosexual in Christianity, Islam, or Judaism its when homosexuals engage in sexual activities is when they are to be put to death.

Hell even sometimes when someone comes out as an atheist in Islamic country they could face the death penalty for apostasy.

[wsg1991]

Yes I know who Abu Nawas and do wish to know more about him. Do you have any book suggestions about Abu Nawas I could learn more about him?
you get the point the problem isn't Islam it just another religion and not that different from Christianity or Judaism , you can say it's Islamic dark ages
apostates face death penalty in 3 religions , it's just some kind of counter measures to prevent sane people from leaving it
Abu Nawas did more than , even mocked some Priests and some sentences from Koran , the kind of stuff that makes him lose his head this days

i can read arabic , you probably can't search google

For example homosexuality is officially the death penalty in Christianity and Judaism you just declared it's the same stuff , just because some muslims do it now ( and were not doing it before ) doesn't make them worse

[jookyle]

I would like to say that his statement should heed more a lesson for those of us not in Egypt who work towards revolution in our own homes.

[campesino]

holy fuck MuscularTophFan

you seem to have taken the neo-con perspective and made muslim into one huge monolithic people. Most muslims, just live normal lives. I was reading a book "Saudi Arabia Exposed : Inside a Kingdom in Crisis." the author in his first chapter explains how he was looking for an apartment and the apartment owner turned on the satellite tv and to the owner's embarrassment it was on a pornography channel. and the owner sarcastically said muhammad said nothing about it being prohibited tot watch women on satellite tv. he also explained how the religious police are hated and the saudi regime itself. the reason you see "crazy muslims" so much is because that is what the media wants you to see.

when a muslim kills he is a terrorist
when a white man kills he is a crazed/lone gunman

[wsg1991]

You really don't know anything about the Middle East, do you?


-M.H.-

one more thing it's seems both egyptian CP
http://www.e-socialists.net/node/8813 calling Hamdeen subahi , revolutionary Militant (نجاح المناضل الثورى حمدين صباحي)

and Revolutionary socialists
http://www.e-socialists.net/node/8813
calls him a candidate of the revolution
(مرشحي الثورة حمدين صباحي)

PS : Hamdeen subahi , says he is a Nasserist

[MuscularTophFan]

holy fuck MuscularTophFan

you seem to have taken the neo-con perspective and made muslim into one huge monolithic people.
I never said all Muslims are one monolithic people, nor did I never say I hated Muslims. What I said in my first post was that separation of religion and state is nonexistent concept in most Muslim countries.



Most muslims, just live normal lives.
Yes that's true.



I was reading a book "Saudi Arabia Exposed : Inside a Kingdom in Crisis." the author in his first chapter explains how he was looking for an apartment and the apartment owner turned on the satellite tv and to the owner's embarrassment it was on a pornography channel. and the owner sarcastically said muhammad said nothing about it being prohibited tot watch women on satellite tv. he also explained how the religious police are hated and the saudi regime itself.
Yes and there are many Saudi men who engage in homosexual sex even though officially they can be put to death by stoning under Islamic Saudi law.


the reason you see "crazy muslims" so much is because that is what the media wants you to see.
Again you are putting words in my mouth.


when a muslim kills he is a terrorist
when a white man kills he is a crazed/lone gunman
Again I don't hate Muslim people. Ok. I hate Islam and I hate every other shitty fucking religion. Also why are you bringing race into this? This is about religion this has nothing to do with race.

[campesino]

I never said all Muslims are one monolithic people, nor did I never say I hated Muslims. What I said in my first post was that separation of religion and state is nonexistent concept in most Muslim countries.



Islam just can't seem to evolve beyond it's primitiveness mindset of the followers of Islam like Christianity did.

that is pretty ignorant, right there is a pretty ignorant thing to say. Also the baath party ideology is a secular one, Nasserism is a secular ideology, communism, the PLO and member groups are secular. indonesia had the largest non-ruling communist party, that was destroyed by right-wing military western puppet dictators. Sudan used to have the largest communist party in the arab world. You are very ignorant. To believe muslims are devout/extremist muslims or have primitive mindsets, is pretty damn wrong. I understand what you mostly know about muslims is from the mainstream media, but open your eyes and shake off the prejudices the capitalist propaganda has taught you.

I'm a militant atheist and i hate the muslim brotherhood, the gulf royals, the salafis, wahhabis, taliban, But I will not let someone spread the imperialist garbage idea that muslims can not be communist, secular, respect human rights

[wsg1991]

BTW there is some protests in Sudan right now

[A Marxist Historian]

one more thing it's seems both egyptian CP
http://www.e-socialists.net/node/8813 calling Hamdeen subahi , revolutionary Militant (نجاح المناضل الثورى حمدين صباحي)

and Revolutionary socialists
http://www.e-socialists.net/node/8813
calls him a candidate of the revolution
(مرشحي الثورة حمدين صباحي)

PS : Hamdeen subahi , says he is a Nasserist

Yes, the RS is nearly as bad lately as the Egyptian CP, who famously sucked up to Nasser right into the police torture chambers. One Egyptian CP leader literally shouted "long live Nasser" as the police were putting bullets into him!

As for Hamdeen Subahi, if he calls himself a Nasserist, then that is all that needs to be said about him. Mubaraq was one of Nasser's fellow officers after all. If Nasser had lived longer, he'd be Mubaraq.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

you mean THE 14 july FREE OFFICERS iraqi revolution?
i don't know much about it ,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14_July_Revolution
don't seems like they nearly reached power




just like you are overestimating Revolutionary socialist now days do you ?
http://cp-egypt.com/

i don't think it was even close to the Influence of Wafd party or Muslim brotherhood
even in the most secular arab country , Tunisia , the workers movements was largely independent for CP ,
i haven't yet seen any picture of Marx in my Local UGTT (main union ) building ,(SFAX second biggest city in Tunisia) , but seen Arafat , Nasser , even Saddam Hussein
this happens in the country with one of most powerful Labor movement in Arab countries

(It is not an accident that Adeni workers, probably the most advanced section of the Arab working class, do not keep pictures of King Feisal or the Imam of Yemen in their homes, but of Nasser. (Of course it would have been far better if they had pictures of Marx, Lenin and Trotsky.)) this was quoted for an article someone putted a link Here , for Tony Cliff http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1990/10/struggleme.htm


i live in Tunisia , i don't comment the Middle East , i comment arab countries , know the difference , you see for example i don't Know any thing about Turkey or Egypt

Tunisia does have a different history, which no doubt you know better than I. But I do know that in Tunisia, the Tunisian CP did not exactly benefit from the well-known support of the French CP after WWII for French colonialism. The Algerian CP even less so, indeed when Algeria got its independence you briefly had considerable influence of (alleged at any rate) Trotskyists, with Michel Pablo, the longtime official leader of the world Trotskyist movement, an adviser to the Ben Bella regime.

As for the Iraq Revolution of 1958, best never to rely on Wikipedia for any serious matters.

Here is an excellent article on the history of class struggle in the Middle East in the 1950s (Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Nasser and Nasserism, the Communist Parties), which you may find interesting.

http://www.spartacist.org/english/wv/740/neareast.html

-M.H.-

[wsg1991]

Tunisia does have a different history, which no doubt you know better than I. But I do know that in Tunisia, the Tunisian CP did not exactly benefit from the well-known support of the French CP after WWII for French colonialism. The Algerian CP even less so, indeed when Algeria got its independence you briefly had considerable influence of (alleged at any rate) Trotskyists, with Michel Pablo, the longtime official leader of the world Trotskyist movement, an adviser to the Ben Bella regime.

As for the Iraq Revolution of 1958, best never to rely on Wikipedia for any serious matters.

Here is an excellent article on the history of class struggle in the Middle East in the 1950s (Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Nasser and Nasserism, the Communist Parties), which you may find interesting.

http://www.spartacist.org/english/wv/740/neareast.html

-M.H.-

that CP you are talking about is now called ''party of renewing" ( or something like that ) , laughable inefficient Liberal (USA liberal ) now that

the theory of unification between imperialist country workers and directly occupied one was not popular ( and illogical ) , the thing is , independent Tunisian workers unions were formed because they were not treated fairly by French unions

[wsg1991]

Tunisia does have a different history, which no doubt you know better than I. But I do know that in Tunisia, the Tunisian CP did not exactly benefit from the well-known support of the French CP after WWII for French colonialism. The Algerian CP even less so, indeed when Algeria got its independence you briefly had considerable influence of (alleged at any rate) Trotskyists, with Michel Pablo, the longtime official leader of the world Trotskyist movement, an adviser to the Ben Bella regime.

As for the Iraq Revolution of 1958, best never to rely on Wikipedia for any serious matters.

Here is an excellent article on the history of class struggle in the Middle East in the 1950s (Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Nasser and Nasserism, the Communist Parties), which you may find interesting.

http://www.spartacist.org/english/wv/740/neareast.html

-M.H.-
.


i did read the article , not interesting , several one sided view of the regime , you read that and thinks it's some Neo liberal regime

[MuscularTophFan]

Also the baath party ideology is a secular one,
Baath party is a fascist party



Nasserism is a secular ideology, communism,,
More fascist ideolgy.



the PLO and member groups are secular.
Correct



indonesia had the largest non-ruling communist party, that was destroyed by right-wing military western puppet dictators. Sudan used to have the largest communist party in the arab world.
Ok


You are very ignorant..
No I'm a realist.



To believe muslims are devout/extremist muslims or have primitive mindsets, is pretty damn wrong.
All religious people have primitive mindsets because religion is primtive. They believe in a fairy tale that has been proven false by evolution for decades now but they still believe the nonsense.



I understand what you mostly know about muslims is from the mainstream media, but open your eyes and shake off the prejudices the capitalist propaganda has taught you.
Not sure what you are talking about. You don't even know who I am so how would even I get all of my info about Muslims from mainstream media.



I'm a militant atheist and i hate the muslim brotherhood, the gulf royals, the salafis, wahhabis, taliban, But I will not let someone spread the imperialist garbage idea that muslims can not be communist, secular, respect human rights
I never said they can't.

[MuscularTophFan]

BTW there is some protests in Sudan right now
I don't think these protests will get anywhere. The regime in Khartoum will not give up power easily.