"Proving" alienation

[Questionable]

I was debating with someone over Marx's theory of alienation. He told me he didn't feel alienated from his labor personally, and I told him he was one of the few since most people I've talked to, me included, feel like their capitalist jobs are just drains on their lives that they have to do. He countered by saying I couldn't prove people feel alienated. I told him it didn't matter if people felt it or not, the reality of the situation was that the worker's labor is used to construct a society which may decide to cut him loose at any time, and once his labor is taken by the capitalist, he has no legal right to it or the product he produced, and that objective economic relationship could not be "felt" away. It doesn't matter whether the slave is happy or depressed, he's still a slave.

Did I handle his counter-argument correctly? Also, are there any kind of statistics that show rates of depression in first-world capitalist societies versus other kinds of societies? Maybe USSR depression rates vs. USA's, just for starters? I feel like having some data on psychological issues would help strengthen my argument, even if they're kind of irrelevant to the actual process of alienation.

[Ocean Seal]

Alienation isn't a feeling its an objective material state, so it can be proven.
Alienation merely means that you the worker doesn't control the production of what he creates, instead of creating a product the worker creates surplus value. So if surplus value is created the worker isn't creating a commodity or product instead an abstract value, and definition this is characteristic of capitalism.

[Comrade Jandar]

Under capitalism everyone is alienated, even the bourgeoisie to some extent. I would say that the effects of alienation has on individuals and society as a whole is definitely an objective reality. The fact that it is so widespread makes it hard to detect because we have never known anything but alienated labor. This is one of Marx's most chilling quotes in relation to alienation.

"As a result, therefore, man (the worker) only feels himself freely active in his animal functions – eating, drinking, procreating, or at most in his dwelling and in dressing-up, etc.; and in his human functions he no longer feels himself to be anything but an animal. What is animal becomes human and what is human becomes animal."

[jookyle]

"Feeling" alienated and being alienated aren't the same thing. Scientific socialism does not base it's analysis on feelings but the objective situation which is found out by objective analysis. One of the methods to maintain capitalism is to make the worker have the sense that they are indeed free and that they are capable of doing anything economically and that this translates to the rest of their lives. The fact that there are haves and have nots proves that such a thing simply isn't true. One can not be free while in economic chains, and ignorance of the chains does not remove the chains.

[Book O'Dead]

"Feeling" alienated and being alienated aren't the same thing. Scientific socialism does not base it's analysis on feelings but the objective situation which is found out by objective analysis. One of the methods to maintain capitalism is to make the worker have the sense that they are indeed free and that they are capable of doing anything economically and that this translates to the rest of their lives. The fact that there are haves and have nots proves that such a thing simply isn't true. One can not be free while in economic chains, and ignorance of the chains does not remove the chains.

I agree with this, but I also think that how people "feel" is important. Not all of us are capable or disposed to a scientific approach to the problem.
Is our intuitive desire to be free of alienation, to be integrated and harmonious with our surroundings and the people that inhabit our lives, is that intuitive desire less valuable that the well-informed desire of the politicaly enlightened?

[jookyle]

I agree with this, but I also think that how people "feel" is important. Not all of us are capable or disposed to a scientific approach to the problem.
Is our intuitive desire to be free of alienation, to be integrated and harmonious with our surroundings and the people that inhabit our lives, is that intuitive desire less valuable that the well-informed desire of the politicaly enlightened?

But the scientific analysis allows for the objectivity of the situation to be known. If you're to educate a person on the matter this way and they become aware of the alienation that objectively exists because of capitalism then they will begin to feel the alienation and be more motivated to do something about it.