Greece has coalition government

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

A deal has been struck to form a new Greek coalition government, say the parties involved.
Antonis Samaras of New Democracy, the party which narrowly won Sunday's elections, is meeting President Karolos Papoulias to confirm the deal.
Mr Samaras is expected to be sworn in as prime minister later on Wednesday, with the cabinet to follow tomorrow.
The coalition will also include the Socialists (Pasok) and the smaller Democratic Left.
But second-place Syriza will be a defiant voice of opposition, correspondents say.
The latest developments come after Greeks were forced to return to the polls on Sunday, after parties failed to agree a government on the results of the first election on 6 May.
Greece has endured nearly seven weeks of political uncertainty which threatened to spark turmoil throughout the eurozone and beyond.
The country is in its fifth year of recession. The coalition is expected to seek some easing of the tough terms of Greece's huge bailout from the EU and the International Monetary Fund (IMF).

New Democracy won 129 seats in Greece's 300-seat parliament on Sunday, followed by Syriza with 71, Pasok with 33 and the Democratic Left with 17.
Between them, New Democracy, Pasok and Democratic Left would have a majority of 29.
They all favour keeping Greece in the euro while wanting to renegotiate the bailout terms, although they differ on the extent.

(More at http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18515185)

[DrZaiu5]

Any concessions they win on the bailout terms will be so minor that they won't make any difference. Greece is in for many tough years ahead. If anything positive comes of this it will be that the Greeks will come to hate the coalition parties as they will be seen as responsible for the continuing austerity.

[Crux]

So with the biggest bloc, at 38%, being abstentions shouldn't the greek anarchists be demanding the 50 bonus seats from ND? Would make parliament more interesting. Although I suppose the anarchists would settle for not taking the seats merely it's ND occupants. Throwing them to the wolfes so to speak.

[KurtFF8]

Apparently the Democratic Left said it will not leave the coalition and let the government collapse (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/greece-government-125357477.html)

[Crux]

Apparently the Democratic Left said it will not leave the coalition and let the government collapse (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/greece-government-125357477.html)
So let them collapse with them. DIMAR deserves no less

[GiantMonkeyMan]

DL and PASOK will no doubt go the way of LAOS and become irrelevant. Meanwhile, rumour has it Syriza is shedding what little radical elements it had and becoming a solidly social-democratic party.

I also heard that KKE made a promise that if they did particularly badly in an election they would change their leader and in this election they've lost to the fucking fascists. Any of our KKE die-hards clarify on that for me?

[Crux]

DL and PASOK will no doubt go the way of LAOS and become irrelevant. Meanwhile, rumour has it Syriza is shedding what little radical elements it had and becoming a solidly social-democratic party.

I also heard that KKE made a promise that if they did particularly badly in an election they would change their leader and in this election they've lost to the fucking fascists. Any of our KKE die-hards clarify on that for me?
a "rumour" from the usual suspects or something with a bit more substance?

[Le Socialiste]

DL and PASOK will no doubt go the way of LAOS and become irrelevant. Meanwhile, rumour has it Syriza is shedding what little radical elements it had and becoming a solidly social-democratic party.

Who/what have you heard this from? Just curious.

[FSL]

I also heard that KKE made a promise that if they did particularly badly in an election they would change their leader and in this election they've lost to the fucking fascists. Any of our KKE die-hards clarify on that for me?
You heard wrong.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

a "rumour" from the usual suspects or something with a bit more substance?


Who/what have you heard this from? Just curious.
I was talking to a KKE voter on another forum and he said that was going to happen. I asked for clarification and essentially it's his prediction for Syriza's future so, sorry, not a very clear rumour after all. A few other Greeks on there who voted for different parties said that while Syriza is in opposition they will offer radical change but the moment they get into power they'll have to negotiate and compromise until their radical elements are sidelined.

Anyway, this graph represents the change in votes for every party. KKE essentially halved their vote; presumably with voters choosing Syriza for this election.
http://s9.postimage.org/jgz6l9ovj/Greek_Election_2012.png

[Crux]

I was talking to a KKE voter on another forum and he said that was going to happen. I asked for clarification and essentially it's his prediction for Syriza's future so, sorry, not a very clear rumour after all.
ah, so one of the voters that did not desert the KKE? Of course had he been a KKE member he would have known SYRIZA is already and always was PASOK and so are the so called radical elements. In fact SYRIZA is worse than PASOK because, besides the enlightened cadre of the KKE, people in general insist on calling them SYRIZA instead of PASOK. So had he been a member no doubt saying that PASOK/SYRIZA has any radical elements at all, or at least to say so in public, would have put his KKE membership in peril. See this is what I meant by "usual suspects".

[GiantMonkeyMan]

ah, so one of the voters that did not desert the KKE? Of course had he been a KKE member he would have known SYRIZA is already and always was PASOK and so are the so called radical elements. In fact SYRIZA is worse than PASOK because, besides the enlightened cadre of the KKE, people in general insist on calling them SYRIZA instead of PASOK. So had he been a member no doubt saying that PASOK/SYRIZA has any radical elements at all, or at least to say so in public, would have put his KKE membership in peril. See this is what I meant by "usual suspects".
He's a lot less fanatical than some KKE voters and seems to have a good head on his shoulders (from what little you can tell through the internet, of course). He wants to get rid of the old guard stalinist leadership of KKE and actually make it a relevant party but whatever the hell that means is unclear. :rolleyes:

And I would hesitate at labelling SYRIZA as the same as PASOK. Maybe the voting base is similar, with a large number of PASOK voters jumping ship, but bourgeois democracy doesn't exactly take into account what the voters actually want and party members are more often than not willing to completely ignore their voters to follow their own agenda. Syriza definitely has a lot of left-wing elements that are critical of the current system that Pasok never had... but I get what you mean.

[Crux]

He's a lot less fanatical than some KKE voters and seems to have a good head on his shoulders (from what little you can tell through the internet, of course). He wants to get rid of the old guard stalinist leadership of KKE and actually make it a relevant party but whatever the hell that means is unclear. :rolleyes:

And I would hesitate at labelling SYRIZA as the same as PASOK. Maybe the voting base is similar, with a large number of PASOK voters jumping ship, but bourgeois democracy doesn't exactly take into account what the voters actually want and party members are more often than not willing to completely ignore their voters to follow their own agenda. Syriza definitely has a lot of left-wing elements that are critical of the current system that Pasok never had... but I get what you mean.
Yes, exactly that's what I said. Conceding that there are any radical elements in SYRIZA is comparatively less secterian than your average KKE sympathizers. Which says more about the KKE than the guy you're talking to IMHO.

I was showing you the KKE line not my own. Sarcasm on the internet etc. And while I might have spoken in a sarcastic tone, it is still very much the KKE line without exaggeration. Ask any of the KKE members here and you'll see.

[FSL]

The CWI considered itself too radical for Syriza's current leadership and left. And the most radical thing I've heard from Xekinima is "no sacrifices for euro".

Ah, why are some communists so sectarian that they don't understand 21st century communism means talking about everything but communism?

[Crux]

The CWI considered itself too radical for Syriza's current leadership and left. And the most radical thing I've heard from Xekinima is "no sacrifices for euro".

Ah, why are some communists so sectarian that they don't understand 21st century communism means talking about everything but communism?
That's the key phrase here. And we were always too radical for the SYRIZA leadership the point is where we can best move the struggle forward. A thing called tactics, something the KKE would do well to learn and study some day. That guy you quote in your signature had some thing's to say about strategy that might baffle you. You should read him some day.

[FSL]

You think they said something like "No sacrifices for euro, appropriate the appropriators" but I missed the last part?

I'm pretty sure Lenin never claimed people were making sacrifices for the rouble and the tight monetary policy of the Czar. I'm also sure that if someone made that absurd claim, there would be no shortage of polemics against him.


Anyway, Xekinima should rejoin syriza then and fast, maybe they can help move the likes of Dragasakis away (no, not really).

[Crux]

You think they said something like "No sacrifices for euro, appropriate the appropriators" but I missed the last part?

I'm pretty sure Lenin never claimed people were making sacrifices for the rouble and the tight monetary policy of the Czar. I'm also sure that if someone made that absurd claim, there would be no shortage of polemics against him.


Anyway, Xekinima should rejoin syriza then and fast, maybe they can help move the likes of Dragasakis away (no, not really).
Yes, yes I remember clearly when that Czar spy and yellow trade unionist Father Gapon led a march to demand concessions from the Czar the bolsheviks all stood aside and said "we are revolutionaries we do not dirty our hands by participating in this charade or appealing to the masses". Or what about that disgustingly opportunist slogan "Peace, Land and Bread"? I don't see the word Revolution in there, clearly it must be opportunism. I mean I am fully willing to believe that is how the KKE would describe it, what with your sometimes very liberal attitude to the truth.

Comrade, I have been to greece. I have spoken with the comrades. I know our program. You could find it very easily and try to understand it, but to do that you must first be able to hear and see. Then perhaps we can have a real discussion of tactics.

[A Marxist Historian]

He's a lot less fanatical than some KKE voters and seems to have a good head on his shoulders (from what little you can tell through the internet, of course). He wants to get rid of the old guard stalinist leadership of KKE and actually make it a relevant party but whatever the hell that means is unclear. :rolleyes:

And I would hesitate at labelling SYRIZA as the same as PASOK. Maybe the voting base is similar, with a large number of PASOK voters jumping ship, but bourgeois democracy doesn't exactly take into account what the voters actually want and party members are more often than not willing to completely ignore their voters to follow their own agenda. Syriza definitely has a lot of left-wing elements that are critical of the current system that Pasok never had... but I get what you mean.

SYRIZA is a reformist working class party of Eurocommunist origins (with some leftists attached to it in leechlike fashion). PASOK, despite the word "socialist" in its name, has always been a thoroughly bourgeois party, which originated as a split from ND. It has a labor following, but only in the same way that the Democrats do in the US. In fact, it's pretty similar to the Democratic party. The (former but historic) PASOK leader Papandreou was definitely a soul brother of Obama.

Sounds like that guy is the kind of person the Greek Spartacists, the only Trotskyist group that called for voting for the KKE, would like to talk to.

-M.H.-

[Per Levy]

the Greek Spartacists, the only Trotskyist group that called for voting for the KKE

yeah they're probally really proud advocating voting for a stalinist party. also "only true trots", yeah all the other trots are revisionists after all.

[A Marxist Historian]

yeah they're probally really proud advocating voting for a stalinist party. also "only true trots", yeah all the other trots are revisionists after all.


Glad to know you realize that.

Not voting for the KKE 'cuz they are Stalin fans is sectarian. Stalin is dead after all.

-M.H.-

[Crux]

Sounds like that guy is the kind of person the Greek Spartacists, the only Trotskyist group that called for voting for the KKE, would like to talk to.

-M.H.-
Not that I think it is necessarily something to brag about, it's just in line with our position for a united front but we've been calling for a KKE vote for years. But see what happens when we don't and the greek spart's do as in the new elections? KKE loses half of their votes.

[Ocean Seal]

Can we please have a huge ML and Trot orgy and forget about things that happened 70 years ago?

[Crux]

Can we please have a huge ML and Trot orgy and forget about things that happened 70 years ago?
In greece it's not 70 years ago. Seriously.

[Per Levy]

Glad to know you realize that.

Not voting for the KKE 'cuz they are Stalin fans is sectarian. Stalin is dead after all.

not voting for kke because they have shit politcs is much more importent to me tbh but whatever, and just a side note, stalinism didnt die with stalin, just saying.

[A Marxist Historian]

not voting for kke because they have shit politcs is much more importent to me tbh but whatever, and just a side note, stalinism didnt die with stalin, just saying.

Very true. Stalinism is indeed the biggest and fundamental problem with the KKE. And it most certainly has a very bad track record.

However, at a point at which they are calling for socialism, revolution, and leaving the EU, they are a mass party firmly rooted in the working class, and SYRIZA, which so many leftists want to vote for, wants to stay in the EU and just renegotiate austerity with the bankers, not voting for them on that basis is sectarian.

Critical support to a party is not the same thing as joining it or pledging allegiance to it. But when a mass working class party starts talking the language of revolution, that has to be taken seriously--whether or not you think they really mean it.

How sincere is Papariga? Who knows? But you can be sure that a lot of the rank and file KKE members are very serious about this--at least the ones who voted KKE. The rottenest elements in and around the KKE are the opportunists who voted for SYRIZA on the theory that that way you could get a "left government." If the party would now have a split and lose a lot of right wing baggage, so much the better.

And the biggest problem with Stalinism is class collaboration, Popular Frontism. The KKE hasn't repudiated that in theory, but right now it is opposing all coalitions with capitalist or for that matter reformist polital forces, and has even issued some very gingerly self-criticism of its coalitionism in the past.

So, in this moment of extreme Greek social crisis, voting for the KKE is not voting for the Moscow Trials, but voting for communism, and telling the bankers and the whole damn EU to take a flying leap.

-M.H.-