my ponderings on the state of the U.S.A native americans, and material conditions.

[campesino]

earlier today I was watching some of "Don't Get Sick After June: American Indian Healthcare" on free speech tv.

I blamed their current condition on the fact that the natives are lazy, and haven't had a leader, that has led a movement of self-sustenance and economic independence from the federal government.

than I thought, why that is very idealist for me to believe that the reason some cultures thrive and others don't, is based on whether a good leader or philosopher is born to create a new movement.
The stupid reason I had for a moment is the same reason conservatives give to explain black/minority poverty.

It seems to me that learned dependence on the federal government for poverty in america, and learned dependence on foreign aid for third world countries. not too mention corrupt kleptocratic government in urban areas and third world countries. is the reason there is no movement for progress.

well, the documentary ended with it restating that the federal government had made a promise to native communities to provide healthcare, and that hopefully the government will keep its promise(typical liberal garbage)

My two questions are:

for there to be a revolution must we not change the material conditions, and cut off all food stamps and welfare?

What other material conditions did the government create to cause such a pathetic state of affairs for the native american?

p.s the only reason I had such a racist thought in the first place is my disdain for liberals, their white-guilt and "new-age" beliefs, which lead to the cultural meme of the wise, noble, spiritual native american.

[Psy]

Well the real reason native americans are poor is they lack of access to means of production. When ever American capitalists found resources owned by native americans that they wanted to exploit they relocated them. When native americans formed revolutionary militias to defend their property the FBI murdered them in cold blood just like Black Panthers.

Revolutions have historically increased welfare, feeding the hungry, house the homeless, educating the illiterate, ect.

[Dean]

for there to be a revolution must we not change the material conditions, and cut off all food stamps and welfare?

Uh, no. This is typical liberal incentives theory, a part of the system which teaches us also that the poor are too lazy, rather than the real factor, that the management structure demands a downtrodden class and will create it by any means necessary. This is basically the philosophy of fascism, also - "the weak should perish for the strong to take over."

If you want to encourage material conditions that help the working class, you should fight for worker control over the workplace, and social control over public areas.


What other material conditions did the government create to cause such a pathetic state of affairs for the native american?

Pretty much all of the land and water and military policies of American states (whole continent really), which are particularly prescient in the western US states where the last large native populations in my country existed.


p.s the only reason I had such a racist thought in the first place is my disdain for liberals, their white-guilt and "new-age" beliefs, which lead to the cultural meme of the wise, noble, spiritual native american.

No. You had the idea because racist ideas are deliberately encoded into the dominant narrative, that is that we all have a choice and economic conditions are fair.

We usually don't have a choice (work or starve, and if you choose work, your labor is demeaning and out of your control).

Economic conditions are not fair for the same reason: we don't control our labor, our workplaces, or the value we create.

[Raúl Duke]

for there to be a revolution must we not change the material conditions, and cut off all food stamps and welfare?

A revolution will inherently change material conditions. Post-revolution, food stamps and welfare as we know them will cease to exist.


What other material conditions did the government create to cause such a pathetic state of affairs for the native american?

There's a long history.

Part of it has to do with the location of reservations (In many cases, Native Americans were places on less productive/valuable lands) and another has to do with infrastructure. Another has to do with a lack of economic control by the Native American community which also creates a limitation for them to have the capital to develop the infrastructure necessary for more economic activities/investments.

[campesino]

Uh, no. This is typical liberal incentives theory, a part of the system which teaches us also that the poor are too lazy, rather than the real factor, that the management structure demands a downtrodden class and will create it by any means necessary. This is basically the philosophy of fascism, also - "the weak should perish for the strong to take over."

If you want to encourage material conditions that help the working class, you should fight for worker control over the workplace, and social control over public areas.



Pretty much all of the land and water and military policies of American states (whole continent really), which are particularly prescient in the western US states where the last large native populations in my country existed.



No. You had the idea because racist ideas are deliberately encoded into the dominant narrative, that is that we all have a choice and economic conditions are fair.

We usually don't have a choice (work or starve, and if you choose work, your labor is demeaning and out of your control).

Economic conditions are not fair for the same reason: we don't control our labor, our workplaces, or the value we create.

I guess I have expanded the dominant cultural narrative to be work, starve, organize and revolt.
I don't know how we could "fight for worker control over the workplace, and social control over public areas." without a working class that wants to. I have the belief that massive changes in society won't take place unless, people are hurting, people will not become class conscious, as long as they have no reason to doubt their false consciousness. they have to see capitalism failing them.

I'm talking about eliminating government help to poor people before the revolution, not after. If we force the working class, into a corner, they might hopefully become class conscious, the reason this hasn't happened, is because the government keeps things from getting too bad. we should not fight a financial crisis, we should support it.

what do you believe are the material conditions that will lead to revolution?

[Mr. Natural]

This thread should be in Learning, shouldn't it?

Comrades interested in Native Americans are invited to read Charles Manning's 1491 (2005). I've long been interested in Native Americans and this is a definitive work that uncovers hidden histories, cultures, and advanced civilizations.

Campesino asks, "What other material conditions did the government create to cause such a pathetic state of affairs for the native americans?"

Well, conquest and genocide create pathetic states of affairs, and the Tolowa of my area in northwestern California were reduced to a pathetic state of affairs in short order. The Tolowa had lived as well as any people on Earth prior to the arrival of European diseases and the Europeans, themselves, for this area is rich in environmental resources, and Tolowan hunting and gathering produced an abundant material life and deep cultural, spiritual, and ecological forms of community. The Tolowa tended to live in community with themselves and the rest of life. Much of their lives could be described as "communist."

But first came the diseases, which wiped out a good portion of the Tolowa, who numbered about 3,000 people. Then came the invasion of gold miners in 1850, and genocide. Gold miners pan and mine on the streams that are traditional and essential resources for a salmon and acorn people, and clashes were immediate and deadly.

In the winter of 1852, a genocidal milita of 33 miners surrounded many hundreds of Tolowa and their guests who were engaged in a weeklong festival celebrating the winter solstice. The miners killed them all--perhaps 450 men, women, and children--save for a couple who were wounded but able to hide. This is acknowledged as perhaps the second worst massacre in US history.

But these genocidal massacres continue in other forms today. I'm thinking of those four dams that strangle the Klamath River south of me. These dams kill the river, its fish, and its four tribes and their traditions, yet these dams don't even provide economically sound energy. They are owned by Warren Buffet and his giant corporation, though, and it appears that they will remain as obscene monuments to capitalism and its irrationality and greed.

Capitalism represents the genocide of the human species. We'd better do something about this. We're all Indians now.

My red-green best.

[Lynx]

The processed food diet has harmed the health of native peoples. I remember reading about studies that indicated they were susceptible to diabetes, because of their adaptation to surviving for long periods without food.

[Prometeo liberado]

Psy pretty much sumed it up. Though I will ask that you look into the nasty treatment of the American Indian Movement or AIM. Basically nothing less than wholesale slaughter much more brutal than that of the BPP. Also read up on the Alcatraz Island Occupation. Makes current Occupation groups look soft. After having read that ask yourself again if these represent a people "lazy" in constructing leadership and if rescinding their rights to food and medicine is the catalyst for revolutionary change.

[campesino]

This thread should be in Learning, shouldn't it?

Comrades interested in Native Americans are invited to read Charles Manning's 1491 (2005). I've long been interested in Native Americans and this is a definitive work that uncovers hidden histories, cultures, and advanced civilizations.

Campesino asks, "What other material conditions did the government create to cause such a pathetic state of affairs for the native americans?"

Well, conquest and genocide create pathetic states of affairs, and the Tolowa of my area in northwestern California were reduced to a pathetic state of affairs in short order. The Tolowa had lived as well as any people on Earth prior to the arrival of European diseases and the Europeans, themselves, for this area is rich in environmental resources, and Tolowan hunting and gathering produced an abundant material life and deep cultural, spiritual, and ecological forms of community. The Tolowa tended to live in community with themselves and the rest of life. Much of their lives could be described as "communist."

But first came the diseases, which wiped out a good portion of the Tolowa, who numbered about 3,000 people. Then came the invasion of gold miners in 1850, and genocide. Gold miners pan and mine on the streams that are traditional and essential resources for a salmon and acorn people, and clashes were immediate and deadly.

In the winter of 1852, a genocidal milita of 33 miners surrounded many hundreds of Tolowa and their guests who were engaged in a weeklong festival celebrating the winter solstice. The miners killed them all--perhaps 450 men, women, and children--save for a couple who were wounded but able to hide. This is acknowledged as perhaps the second worst massacre in US history.

But these genocidal massacres continue in other forms today. I'm thinking of those four dams that strangle the Klamath River south of me. These dams kill the river, its fish, and its four tribes and their traditions, yet these dams don't even provide economically sound energy. They are owned by Warren Buffet and his giant corporation, though, and it appears that they will remain as obscene monuments to capitalism and its irrationality and greed.

Capitalism represents the genocide of the human species. We'd better do something about this. We're all Indians now.

My red-green best.

so what kind of material conditions should we create to cause a revolution? not solely for the native americans but for the working class world-wide.

my main question now is what material conditions should be created/encouraged to create revolution?

[Mr. Natural]

Campesino, We already have the material conditions for revolution. Capitalism has triumphed and we all now work for The System, in various ways. The human species has been physically captured and works for capitalist profit, not anarchist/communist forms of community. Even worse: capitalist relations oppose living relations, and the human species is being cashed in.

So we have a mental, not a material problem. The human species flat out fails to recognize its physical and mental envelopment by capitalism and its malign relations.

So what has happened to the left? It, too, has been subsumed within the capitalist relations--the relations it is supposed to oppose. The left has consequently lost its radical energy and spirit and no longer poses a negation to capitalism. The necessary development of revolutionary organizing theories to cope with the advance of capitalism has been abandoned to a deathgrip reliance on old classics and dogma.

It doesn't have to be this way, for there are new sciences of organization that could enable a disorganized left to get going on its historic mission, but ....

My red-green, scientific Marxist best.