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¿Que?
19th June 2012, 05:31
I just watched a pretty interesting interview with Paul Krugman on Stephen Colbert. Feel free to respond generally about Krugman but what I'm really interested in is what he said about Ireland and Sweden. Was wondering if there was any truth to it.

See, basically, I often hear radicals say how it doesn't matter who you vote for, the voting system is corrupt and useless or something like that. Particularly in the US, but generally in all bourgeois democracies, voting is not to be relied upon for anything.

But the counter to this argument would point to Obama's minor reforms which at least on the surface, appear to at least make the situation more comfortable for radicals. For example, what about the equal pay bill? What about his voiced opinion on gay marriage? What about his cancelling deportations of some immigrants? Sure, we can all see right through all this. We see it for what it is, ploys to get the working class to vote for him. But doesn't this also change the parameters of the debate, essentially facilitating the work of radicals. Even if it was all lip service, and not a single reform was passed in favor of the left, doesn't it still help the cause that these issues are being talked about.

But those are mostly what they call social issues. Fundamentally, Democrats are just as bad if not worse than Republicans, when taking into account economic issues. But is this really the case? Back to Krugman. Krugman pointed to Ireland as the worst example of unregulated, unadulterated capitalism and austerity. Worker layoffs, low corporate taxes, few regulations, all that. And they're doing pretty shitty. Basically Krugman says if the US elects Romney, then the US will end up like Ireland.

But here's the interesting part. He points to Sweden as a shining example of the successful welfare state. He said something about their economy has been good for 30 years or so (not sure if he actually said growth, but I'd imagine that's what he's talking about). Krugman is as far as I know a Keynisian and I'd imagine that by pointing out Sweden, he's basically using it as evidence for the effectiveness of Keynesian type economic systems. There are two issues here. The first is that Krugman is endorsing Obama, suggesting that the US could be like Sweden. But it's obvious that that would never happen under Obama. Obama is tied closely to corporate interests, this is revealed through various decisions he has made through his first term. However, can't we also assume that Obama wouldn't cause an Ireland situation? To take the health reform issue as an example, isn't some sort of health reform better than none at all? Wouldn't the situation be worse off had McCain won? And even if it was all a ruse, and he had no intention of enacting any meaningful plan, doesn't it at least set the national debate a little more in favor of the left?

The other issue has to do with his actual claims. How are things in Sweden really? What are some factors that might contribute to the situation in Sweden that are not present in the US? But most importantly, why exactly does the Keynesian system fail? The only reasons I can come up with are the various right wing talking points, capital flight, outsourcing, unemployment, etc etc. Are these really true, or are there more appropriate Marxist objections.

Thanks for reading, I look forward to some responses. I hope noone takes this as advocating reformism, I'm just asking question that I don't have the answers to.

EDIT: I was also going to say that not voting, even for liberal reformists, seems kind of as useless if not more than voting. The only exception to this would be if there was some sort of organized boycott to the elections. But other than that, why not vote?

Sperm-Doll Setsuna
19th June 2012, 05:40
The Swedish social democratic regime abandoned Keynesianism by the late 70's, early 80's, and since 1985 all governments have endorsed neo-liberal policies one-way or the other. If Sweden was a successful welfare state this was in the wake of World War II, where, unscathed by the war, the country saw massive improvements in living standards as well as popular participation to some extent under the management of the social-democrats; this particular during the 1945-1970 period. But even this is no longer a reality, because these things cannot be sustained. The industry, capitalists and employers galore, struck back, and they won, as they are wont to do in capitalism - serving the rightful masters and whatnot.

revolt
19th June 2012, 05:40
The other issue has to do with his actual claims. How are things in Sweden really? What are some factors that might contribute to the situation in Sweden that are not present in the US?well, Sweden has always been much more left leaning than the US and has had more intense class struggle in the post-WWII era.

Dunk
19th June 2012, 05:55
I genuinely believe they are both the party of the ruling class and that liberal democracy is not democratic because people do not have equal political power.

The call to vote for Democrats because of the real world results of their lesser evil strikes me as cut from the same cloth as the "let's focus on the wage gap and not wage labor," "there are starving children in Rwanda let us send them immediate relief and not focus on private property."

EDIT: I also would like to add that I don't want to give Que the impression I think he is campaigning for Democrats.

Lynx
19th June 2012, 12:35
Keynesianism is a counter-cyclical intervention by government to boost the economy and get it out of a recession. Social democratic policies aren't necessarily Keynesian policies, although they do act to ease the effect of a recession for those who are struggling. SD policies will cause deficits to rise during a downturn.

Neoliberalism should have been discredited with the GFC. It failed to predict the crisis and claimed that the business cycle was dead.

Debt hysteria (which is a useful tool for neoliberals and right-wingers) should have been discredited by the continuing survival of Japan.

As the damage from austerity accumulates, Keynesian 'solutions' are bound to make a comeback as they are the approach most familiar to the public. Especially so in North America, thanks to Krugman and his pulpit at the NYT.

Igor
19th June 2012, 12:48
The call to vote for Democrats because of the real world results of their lesser evil strikes me as cut from the same cloth as the "let's focus on the wage gap and not wage labor," "there are starving children in Rwanda let us send them immediate relief and not focus on private property."


The thing here is though that call to vote for any left-wing option in parliamentary elections isn't giving that any focus. I mean, it's a completely different thing to focus your work on wage gap instead of wage labour and humanitarian aid instead of attacking the system that's causing the problems than pop by a ballot once every couple of years. Most people here claiming that it's for the best to vote left, or the "lesser evil", are not saying it's how we're really going to change the society or that it's an effective way of changing things at all, but just that it can cause some change and the thing about voting is that it's fairly easy. It doesn't require really anything else than the actual voting process in itself, so you can't compare it at all to doing actual political work for wrong causes.

Even though I'm an anarchist and don't believe reform is a viable way to fix the society, I believe it can be a good way to bring some relief to the overwhelming shiftiness of capitalism in some forms. In the case point of USA which was discussed here earlier on, I'd vote for Democrats in any elections I could. Are they leftist? No. They're full-on rightist shitheads, of course. But their position on LGBT and women's right issues (not being on full offence against them, that is) would guarantee them my vote for every single election year as long as the two party system would be intact. To claim the Republicans and the Democrats really are the same thing is incredibly callous, because that shit isn't defined solely by their economic policy. Republicans are constantly more hostile to the idea of basic human rights, even though it has more to do with the group of people they have to pander to to get votes than Democrats being somehow "morally superior" to them.

Tim Cornelis
19th June 2012, 13:02
Sweden went through the most severe economic crisis in its history in the 1990s (when the social-democrats were in power). Unemployment is now officially at 7 percent, but in reality it is 10-15 percent—25 percent for young people. 11.5% of children in Sweden live in poverty.
Social-democracy does not work.

aty
19th June 2012, 15:12
Here you have a splendid text from "Center for Marxism Studies Stockholm" on why reformism/socialdemocracy/keynesianism is an impossibility and why it have failed Sweden.
In english, page 38:
http://www.transform-network.net/fileadmin/journal/transf10-screen.pdf

Paul Krugman is a fool and a fraud.

Dunk
19th June 2012, 20:00
Igor, that's cool. Vote for them. I'm not going to vote.

aty
19th June 2012, 20:52
Sweden went through the most severe economic crisis in its history in the 1990s (when the social-democrats were in power). Unemployment is now officially at 7 percent, but in reality it is 10-15 percent—25 percent for young people. 11.5% of children in Sweden live in poverty.
Social-democracy does not work.
This crisis was caused by a deregulation of the credit-system in 1985, called the Novemberrevolution. This was bound to happen in a capitalist keynesian economy because the inflation was too high and the rate of profit was too low in Sweden.
The banks went crazy with loans to everyone and everybody. When the inevitable crash came in 90/91 they took the chance and introduced neoliberalism to Sweden. The last 20 years Sweden is the country that have taken neoliberalism the furthest in the world, at the same time it is the country were the gaps between rich and poor have risen the most.