Sometimes it's hard to be a woman. Especially when you're made out of pixels

[Hexen]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jun/17/sometimes-hard-woman-made-pixels?fb=native&C%20MP=FBCNETTXT9038

Of course why are women portrayed like this in video games under capitalism?

[Lynx]

It's called Sales.

[#FF0000]

nah.

it's mostly because people are awful writers. things would be better if there were more awful female writers in the mix, but not by much.

Basically we need more better writers and female writers.

EDIT: And gamers need to die on a mass scale

[TheRadicalAnarchist]

Haha, have you watched Disney movies? Look at how they portay women. Heck, look at Hollywood as a whole, along with advertising agencies. Women are used for sex symbols because it is believe to sell more. When in reality it's just a pathetic attempt to sell a product.

[#FF0000]

I thought Disney movies were supposed to be pretty alright in portraying women.

I honestly don't know though.

[o well this is ok I guess]

EDIT: And gamers need to die on a mass scale Man don't pin this all on gamers. There's just as large a plethora of awful directors and authors and musicians, and that shit is pretty in demand.

Awful people are awful regardless of medium.

[#FF0000]

Awful people are awful regardless of medium.

gamers are uniquely awful.

i play a lot of video games

[GPDP]

gamers are uniquely awful.

i play a lot of video games

Joke's on you, I'm on /v/ way too often to play video games.

In any case, I agree gamer culture can be pretty damn misogynistic.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Joke's on you, I'm on /v/ way too often to play video games.

I really thought better of you. ;(

Sex-symbol characters in games are awful anyway.

[revolt]

In any case, I agree gamer culture can be pretty damn misogynistic.gamer culture can be pretty misogynistic because its primarily 15 year old boys.

[Hexen]

gamers are uniquely awful.

i play a lot of video games

As also evidenced in this other thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/feminist-frequency-harassment-t172596/index.html).

[Eagle_Syr]

I don't see why it is misogyny to admire the female form. Feminism doesn't mean you have to let yourself go.

[#FF0000]

yeah except that is not the problem at all.

The problem is that women are in video games are p. much cardboard cutouts w/ tits most of the time.

You can have a damsel in distress or a character that is supposed to be hyper-sexualized but when EVERY character is both of those things it's kind of dumb

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

I don't see why it is misogyny to admire the female form. Feminism doesn't mean you have to let yourself go.

Ah, the sweet irony.
Objectifying any sex is repugnant (admiring the female form / not letting yourself go = suggesting there is an archetype form or mould that women should fit in to and it's a-ok to 'admire' it)

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Anywho, games movies comics music they all have infuriating depictions of what women apparantly should be (conforming to a tedious male fantasy that makes everyone outside of it, most women because it is a fantasy, seem somehow inadequate).
Of course female characters have to have boobs, but they don't have to be triple D and they should also have personality and brains...an actual character.

[Hiero]

Just going through the comments, one of the issues raised the developer failure to connect with the female audience. The comment noted that the developers were told that female players did not project themselves onto Lara Croft, rather they wanted to protect (I assume that means while playing her they don't fantasy about being her, rather empathise with her during gameplay and in playing her protect her from the baddies.

In response they reduce Lara Crofts unrealistic features, but create a story where the player has to protect Lara Croft from rapist. That is where they go wrong, they created a masochistic storyline as a response to female consumer demands.

What other comments I found to support this criticism, is that they couldn't imagine developers playing a prequel game to Batman's life where he has to run around an island tyring to escape baddies who want to rape him. But this is thought suitable and more 'realistic' for a female character. The damsel in distress would have actually worked here, where Lara Croft moves from the damsel in distress to heroine (like the Buffy story). But the process to go through this stage for Lara Croft is engaged again through male fantasy in the form of rape.

That is what I gather from the criticism.

[Zav]

Culture dictates that males between 10 and 25 must like video games. Most males like women (*culture says that most people are heterosexual, but science suggests that most are bisexual+*), and video game corporations exploit this due to the profit motive inherent in the Capitalist system. Thus, women in video games are portrayed as what the culture thinks are ideal people for males in that age range.

[Hiero]

Culture dictates that males between 10 and 25 must like video games. Most males like women (*culture says that most people are heterosexual, but science suggests that most are bisexual+*), and video game corporations exploit this due to the profit motive inherent in the Capitalist system. Thus, women in video games are portrayed as what the culture thinks are ideal people for males in that age range.
Video games are culture.

[Althusser]

EDIT: And gamers need to die on a mass scale

Why? There are games that don't objectify women... I just finished Max Payne 3 the other day. It took place mostly in Brazil. It shows the shallowness of the rich, mocks trickle-down economics, and shows the corrupt organizations that induce and arise as a consequence of poverty. There's a graphic scene that takes place in a brothel where women are being paid to have sex. It isn't put in a good light though.

There's a pathetic American tourist in the brothel, who is there for the "cheap pussy" as he puts it. You later have the opportunity to either leave him rotting in a jail cell during a prisoner riot, or shoot him dead.

[revolt]

There's a pathetic American tourist in the brothel, who is there for the "cheap pussy" as he puts it. You later have the opportunity to either leave him rotting in a jail cell during a prisoner riot, or shoot him dead.you have a pretty disproportionate amount of anger towards sex tourists.

there are much worse people in brothels, like the people who run them.

[o well this is ok I guess]

yeah except that is not the problem at all.

The problem is that women are in video games are p. much cardboard cutouts w/ tits most of the time.

You can have a damsel in distress or a character that is supposed to be hyper-sexualized but when EVERY character is both of those things it's kind of dumb Hey man not much different from reading Hemingway


I really thought better of you. ;(

Sex-symbol characters in games are awful anyway. Man, we all do weird things on 4chan

I roleplay as an anarcho-nazbol on /pol/

[Eagle_Syr]

Ah, the sweet irony.
Objectifying any sex is repugnant (admiring the female form / not letting yourself go = suggesting there is an archetype form or mould that women should fit in to and it's a-ok to 'admire' it)

So there is no such thing as beauty?

Men and women are sexual creatures. And human beings do tend to find beauty in specific forms of the man and the woman, these "hyper-sexualized" forms. The human body can therefore be considered beautiful, in the strictest artistic sense. Nothing is wrong with embracing that.

[cynicles]

Samus Aran kicks Lara Croft's ass, yes I know she's actually very conventionally hot when she takes off her armour but I still mostly see her as the bounty hunter in the badass suit. Beyond that I got nothing, in almost all other cases women are either hyper-sexualized or part of a cartoonish games that render sex irrelevant.

[Invader Zim]

Of course the problem with all this is that male characters hardly fare much better. One member noted above that female characters in games are typically cardboard cut-outs with tits. Sure, that is true. But by the same token, male characters are typically muscular hulks with a similar vacuum where character should be - and always have been:

http://cdn3.spong.com/pack/g/o/goldenaxe187658l/_-Golden-Axe-Sega-Master-System-_.jpg

This is a game called Golden Axe, it was released in 1989. Nothing has changed. Both the person making the video, and Charlie Brooker (whom I read regularly, because he hilariously trolls right-wingers), both miss the point. The issue shouldn't be a critique of how the games industry portrays women, rather it should be about analysing how the social construction of gender influences the expectations of gamers and how that is perceived by developers. The fact is that the games industry creates fantasy worlds in which the human form is regularly constructed to match dominant social ideals about what the ideal human body looks like and how people of different genders are supposed to behave.

[Agent Ducky]

So there is no such thing as beauty?

Men and women are sexual creatures.
Except when we're not ^_^

And y'all are forgetting about Chell from Portal.
She doesn't talk, but that adds to all of her badassery. She's not over-sexualized and she silently fights her way out of a situation where she would otherwise be a victim. But she refuses to be a victim and you guide her in her struggles against GLaDOS and everything Aperture has to throw at her.

[Althusser]

you have a pretty disproportionate amount of anger towards sex tourists.

there are much worse people in brothels, like the people who run them.

Well, they all wind up dead as well. Here's the scene: GfjuYhOS3XY

Story line parts are cut out of the video.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Ah, the sweet irony.
Objectifying any sex is repugnant (admiring the female form / not letting yourself go = suggesting there is an archetype form or mould that women should fit in to and it's a-ok to 'admire' it)

Ridiculous. It is a scientific fact that heterosexual males are attracted by certain female physical features by evolutionary instinct to make sexual reproduction more likely, and vica versa. So yes, large breasts, make up, making ones self look younger, healthier, more vitality and fitness etc. does in fact enforce physical attractiveness. As to how important physical attraction would be in a non-manipulated classless human society, one can guess that it would play rather an irrelevant social role (assuming propagating institutions of advertisement/stereotypes and hierarchy/idolatry are abolished of course).

Do I think that Capitalism exploits these instinctive features? Yes, of course, all class systems have exploited these primitive instincts, for reasons we can only speculate on (whether they are necessary social contracts or real inventions [which the latter I am quite suspicious of]). Capital does not simply tell people what to look like through its propaganda mediums (press, ads, movies etc), but enhances certain primitive psychological instincts that enforce competition at hand of superficial aspects (physical features for example) that create a class based 'Social Contract' of turning a rather dull reality (human material existence) into some mystical and real social contractual power that *seemingly, appears* to determines an individuals success in that class society.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Ah, the sweet irony.
Objectifying any sex is repugnant (admiring the female form / not letting yourself go = suggesting there is an archetype form or mould that women should fit in to and it's a-ok to 'admire' it)

So what you are in fact telling this comrade, is that he should 1. ignore his everyday reality of capitalist society (in which the ruling dogma is in [tragic] fact, that if one looks like the smiling *attractive people in the advertisement, one will be successful etc.) and 2. *ignore his basic natural instincts of attractiveness which, although they have indeed (possibly, most likely) taken on a social form, are still "as natural as masturbation is of the sexual life".

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

It is really the (social) Importance of attractiveness which needs to be abolished, not actual attractiveness. Once the capital-ist ideological propaganda outlets (that seek higher profits from exploiting natural instincts from their viewers) are abolished, make up and other instruments to enhance physical attraction will most likely dwindle if not become obsolete.

Fighting for women's rights within capitalist society is nice and very correct, but the fact of people fighting for sexual equality now on a large scale contrary to 200 years ago, shows that there is an actual material cause (the ever socialised relations of production [by Capital-Imperialism] in human society and advancement of technology connecting people evermore) that shapes these thoughts that become into physical movements (the feminist movement, LGTB etc.)

[Hiero]

This is a game called Golden Axe, it was released in 1989. Nothing has changed. Both the person making the video, and Charlie Brooker (whom I read regularly, because he hilariously trolls right-wingers), both miss the point. The issue shouldn't be a critique of how the games industry portrays women, rather it should be about analysing how the social construction of gender influences the expectations of gamers and how that is perceived by developers. The fact is that the games industry creates fantasy worlds in which the human form is regularly constructed to match dominant social ideals about what the ideal human body looks like and how people of different genders are supposed to behave. These are predominantly male fantasies. The character in that cover is over sexualised, the large and protuding muscles and lacking clothing. Male characters always come out Female characters and male characters are created through hegemonic male fantasies. That is the critique people were making about Tomb Raider, that the female character is scripted through male fantasies, even when supposedly the purpose was to engage the female audience.

But is is not the case that female and male characters in video games or other media are potrayed equally. That is you can't say, well Lara Croft has large breast, but look the character from golden axe has big muscles.

Take note of some of this pictures:

http://technoccult.zippykidcdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/avengers_booty_ass_emble_by_kevinbolk.jpg

I find it quite disturbing, but it reveals through the over sexualised wierdness in the way are drawn and portrayed in the comic book world and it is the same for games. In this case the sexuality that is drawn onto women is drawn back onto male characters, revealing not 'natural' features that are merely overemphasised, but how thoose sexualites are created.

Also check out this site, as fans redraw female characters to make their bodies more realistic.

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/tagged/redraws/chrono

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

So what you are in fact telling this comrade, is that he should 1. ignore his everyday reality of capitalist society (in which the ruling dogma is in [tragic] fact, that if one looks like the smiling *attractive people in the advertisement, one will be successful etc.) and 2. *ignore his basic natural instincts of attractiveness which, although they have indeed (possibly, most likely) taken on a social form, are still "as natural as masturbation is of the sexual life".

I dunno, I was commenting on an assumption I'd made that he supported the objectification of women, think that was a false assumption on my part. I project too much on the subject of attractiveness without considering the more detailed arguements you put forward (scientific / evolutionary basis of attraction). Anyway, my mistake I guess.

[Invader Zim]

These are predominantly male fantasies.

Of course. But the point you are missing is that male fantasy regarding the modern Adonis is socially constructed. Male fantasy of the ideal sexualised male form is built on the social expectations of how a man should look. And those expectations are built by women as much as they are built by men, and vice versa.

If you look at media aimed almost exclusively at a female audience you will see many similar characteristics of the same form: male and female:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQjAsAvv0Wh2RlehnmZmoBMhZcOW0Gu7 Gyf_0EkSb8kydzeayeayjueu2Ij

http://www.cosmopolitan.co.uk/cm/cosmopolitanuk/images/0p/MATT_JARVIS_MED-SllbJN.jpg


http://www.cosmopolitan.co.uk/cm/cosmopolitanuk/images/yg/Cosmosutra-Love-Triangle-m.jpg


http://www.cosmopolitan.co.uk/cm/cosmopolitanuk/images/kZ/07-150612-get-kinky-mdn.jpg

These are all from magazines aimed near exclusively at a female audience. These images are not designed for male consumption. Yet we see very similar depictions of the ideal human form: male and female. That is because men and women's expectations regarding the female form are socially constructed, and that includes men and women. The gaming industry, like the rest of the media, whether it be aimed at men or women, reflects the industries perceptions of its consumers desires and expectations, and indeed feeds and partially forms those expectations. Therefore, the observation that the gaming industry is trying to branch out to a female audience while at the same time employing a female character with large breasts rather misses the wider point about why the gaming industry is the way it is. And that is entirely to do with the wider social construction of gender, which is reflected in both crude sterotypes of the ideal male and female form, not just in gaming but across the entire media.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Gamer culture is the worst thing.
There are some respectable representations of women in video games, though. Take Alex from the Half Life series for example.

[Hiero]

Noxion, I will add that what you missed in regards to the criticism of the latest Tomb Raider was not the large breasts, the fake body construction, but the rape scenerio/storyline. The claim is that this is only acceptable for hero if she is a herione. That wouldnt be acceptable to have a prequal for Batman, Duke Nukemen or Spider Man where they are strandard on an Island runing away from rapists. It is a male masochist fantasy.

And I really don't get where you are going with your post. Social constructions is the basis of the critique, I don't see why you would bring it up as if it is something I missed. I am dealing with social constructions. You have added an obvious and fundmental thing, so fundemental that it was not worth mentioning.

I think you have also underplayed the power imbalance in gender construction. What occured in Western society with the inclusion of women in paid labour which lead to the de-tradionalising of some women's roles (class), created women as consumers (as opposed to women as the conspicious consumers of men). Smart advertises utiltised and including the women's gaze (which has been always around, it was just not always had power) into it's portrayal of the male sex to sell.

This does not equalise power in regards to portrayal of the sexes and genders no does it imply they are the same, it actually means there is a multiplicity of gender represention. For isntance there is differences in that Sega Game video, which would be marketed towards men (the focus on violence for instance) and the imags from female magazines. Note that Eric Bana is in a laundry, traditionally seen as women's social space, the camera angles are tade bit higher, their is alot more softness in the body, the muscles are actually relastic etc . You would have to be joking to assume that women would find say Duke Nukem as equally attracable as that Eric Bana photo.

But I don't really get where you were going with that post, some of the things are fundemental agreeable on, but I don't get your point, as you never actually state on.

[Agent Ducky]

Not sure if I remember correctly, but didn't they do a study on women where the majority found guys who were toned but not excessively to be more attractive than the musclebound totally-ripped types?
Like what the person above me is saying, Eric Bana vs. Duke Nukem. I don't think they're really targeting women's gaze with Duke Nukem, but more targeting the stereotypical male fantasy of aspiration to badassery.

[Yugo45]

Here's the kickstarted the article mentioned: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games


P.S.
http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-14-worst-boobs-in-history-video-games/

http://i.crackedcdn.com/phpimages/article/9/1/9/134919.jpg?v=1

[#FF0000]

Of course the problem with all this is that male characters hardly fare much better. One member noted above that female characters in games are typically cardboard cut-outs with tits. Sure, that is true. But by the same token, male characters are typically muscular hulks with a similar vacuum where character should be - and always have been

The adage is "Men in comics/video games look like what boys want to be. Women in comics/games look like what boys want them to be". Plus I don't know if it's true that men are big ol' macho hulkmen in most videogames. In a lot, maybe. Not the ones I play. I'm picky. Maybe I'm wrong.

But hey it'd be great if characters weren't just endless tit-walkers and biff meatnecks so we can all agree there.

[#FF0000]

Not sure if I remember correctly, but didn't they do a study on women where the majority found guys who were toned but not excessively to be more attractive than the musclebound totally-ripped types?
Like what the person above me is saying, Eric Bana vs. Duke Nukem. I don't think they're really targeting women's gaze with Duke Nukem, but more targeting the stereotypical male fantasy of aspiration to badassery.

This a million times, basically.

The only characters I see girls really fawning over are from like final fantasy and shit like that.

[Krano]

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2012/06/18/500936/an-open-letter-to-the-guys-who-told-me-they-want-to-see-lara-croft-get-raped/?mobile=nc

[GPDP]

Samus Aran kicks Lara Croft's ass, yes I know she's actually very conventionally hot when she takes off her armour but I still mostly see her as the bounty hunter in the badass suit. Beyond that I got nothing, in almost all other cases women are either hyper-sexualized or part of a cartoonish games that render sex irrelevant.

And then Other M came out and took a shit all over that view of Samus. Now she's a generic Barbie doll who talks too much about her feelings and needs to be saved by big strong manly men, a true stereotype if I've ever seen one.

It's amazing how the mind behind Super Metroid could somehow go on to turn one of the most respectable females in video games into one of the most disgustingly sexist caricatures I've ever seen.

EDIT: And to give "gamers" some credit, the reception to this new portrayal of Samus (which creator Sakamoto has gone on to say is the depiction he always meant to convey) has been overwhelmingly negative. Of course, it doesn't help the game's plot and script were very poorly written and the gameplay was all-around subpar, but at least we can take comfort in knowing not everyone is comfortable with a beloved character being turned into a walking uterus.

[#FF0000]

(which creator Sakamoto has gone on to say is the depiction he always meant to convey)

the best thing about this is that it must be total bullshit because there was a metroid comic back in the day and Samus wasn't that bad then either, iirc.

[human strike]

I thought Disney movies were supposed to be pretty alright in portraying women.

I honestly don't know though.

You're joking, right?

Uuk-h2ZYNJU

[#FF0000]

You're joking, right?

Uuk-h2ZYNJU

yeah and then I remember reading a big ol' list of positive messages present in Disney's portrayal of women.

So. v:mellow:v