What's wrong with being macho?

[The Machine]

It seems like a go to insult for the identity politics crowd is some variation of "macho asshole". Why is this acceptable? There are plenty of men and women who are "macho" ie behave in ways that are traditionally masculine, and I think it should be considered a legitimate sexual/gender identity.

[Igor]

There's nothing wrong with being macho per se, but it's usually fairly closely tied to homophobic and sexist attitudes, which are of course a bad thing. If you can express your masculinity without bringing down women and queer folk, go hog wild, because of course it's a legitimate identity then.

[The Machine]

yeah I'm a former football player and a pretty big guy and I lift weights, and a while back I read an old thread where someone was like "Oh it's easy to tell who the undercovers are at a protest, it's all the big muscular guys" like great just another reason not to associate with you moonbats irl

[Book O'Dead]

It seems like a go to insult for the identity politics crowd is some variation of "macho asshole". Why is this acceptable? There are plenty of men and women who are "macho" ie behave in ways that are traditionally masculine, and I think it should be considered a legitimate sexual/gender identity.

My problem with always trying to be so "macho" is that it eventually turns me so gay!

You heard about the myth of "male bonding"? [in a conspiratorial whisper]: It's actually a male-invented ritual to sublimate our own homosexual impulses.

[Lynx]

Let's wrestle!

[Landsharks eat metal]

Well, when I was reading a dictionary, (not sure which one), the first definition it had for macho was related to male chauvinism.

And in the dictionary I have right now (American Heritage), the first definition says "Characterized by machismo." And machismo is defined as "An exaggerated sense of masculinity stressing such attributes as physical courage, virility, domination of women, and aggressiveness or violence." [emphasis mine]

So I think there's a difference between masculine and macho.

[Red Rabbit]

Well, when I was reading a dictionary, (not sure which one), the first definition it had for macho was related to male chauvinism.

And in the dictionary I have right now (American Heritage), the first definition says "Characterized by machismo." And machismo is defined as "An exaggerated sense of masculinity stressing such attributes as physical courage, virility, domination of women, and aggressiveness or violence." [emphasis mine]

So I think there's a difference between masculine and macho.

Here is the definition according to Dictionary.com:



adjective
1.
having or characterized by qualities considered manly, especially when manifested in an assertive, self-conscious, or dominating way.
2.
having a strong or exaggerated sense of power or the right to dominate.

And "machismo":



noun
1.
a strong or exaggerated sense of manliness; an assumptive attitude that virility, courage, strength, and entitlement to dominate are attributes or concomitants of masculinity.
2.
a strong or exaggerated sense of power or the right to dominate: The military campaign was an exercise in national machismo.

Notice "domination of women" is just replaced by "right to dominate".

[The Machine]

Well, when I was reading a dictionary, (not sure which one), the first definition it had for macho was related to male chauvinism.

And in the dictionary I have right now (American Heritage), the first definition says "Characterized by machismo." And machismo is defined as "An exaggerated sense of masculinity stressing such attributes as physical courage, virility, domination of women, and aggressiveness or violence." [emphasis mine]


i dont think theres anything necessarily wrong with the domination of women, in a consentual sexual sense. i dont have a problem with anything else on the list.

[Thirsty Crow]

It seems like a go to insult for the identity politics crowd is some variation of "macho asshole". Why is this acceptable?
Maybe because most cases of behavior that is considered "macho" include a derogatory stance towards women, as in viewing them and relating to them as merely sex toys?
Maybe because aggressively assertive behavoir is obnoxious and smacking of crude egoism?


i dont think theres anything necessarily wrong with the domination of women, in a consentual sexual sense. i dont have a problem with anything else on the list.
As if the quoted dictionary definition has anything to do with "consentual sexual sense".

[Regicollis]

That some guys like to lift weights, drive motorcycles and throw axes around can't get me worked up. I like to do a bit of that kind of stuff from time to time although I've never considered myself macho.

What can annoy me is the attitude that goes with the mainstream definition of being macho. I'm not accusing anyone here of anything but the "typical" macho man has an aggressive, dominating and quite intimidating attitude as well as some rather premodern views on women and queers. A disdain for culture and knowledge are also often part of the macho stereotype.

But luckily people are too complex to fit into stereotypes and I'm sure there are many men out there who can pull off the macho thing without the asshole bit.

[revolt]

it depends how you define macho. its obviously a negative if you are using the definitions provided by Landsharks Eat Metal and Red Rabbit because of over dominating personalities. there is obviously nothing wrong with being masculine though. leftists that have a hostility towards masculinity are most likely just annoyed by the presence of people that are different from them, and use a fake "feminist" (but in reality very unfeminist) justification for their hostility.

[revolt]

i dont think theres anything necessarily wrong with the domination of women, in a consentual sexual sense. i dont have a problem with anything else on the list."domination of women" definitely does not refer to consensual sexual domination.

[Princess Luna]

When I think of the word 'macho' I think of people who purposefully act masculine, they don't lift weights because they want to build muscle and stay healthy, they lift weights because it is a manly thing to do. In other words they do it to hide insecurities, and (like several other people have said) they tend to be homophobic and sexists assholes for the same reason.

[Blake's Baby]

Someone who lifts weights is not 'macho'.

Someone who lifts weights, and calls people who don't pussies, is macho.

Machismo is a kind of braggidocio associated with over-emphasis of (stereotypically) male characteristics. It's about, metaphorically, waving your cock and saying 'look at me I'm a big boy'.

Machismo is behaviour designed to make you look powerful and intimidate other people. The reason that people find the term 'macho asshole' trips off the tongue so easily is that it's a tautology. Not everyone that lifts weights is macho; but everyone who is macho, is an asshole.

[TheRadicalAnarchist]

There's a fine line between being macho, and just being an outright jerk.

[¿Que?]

GSxkPUty4y4

Yeah, this really screams of homophobia!!!

Seriously, though, something should be said about the context that the words are used. I mean, is there anything that this conversation could gain by showing this video, or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

To be fair, I think it's worth pointing out that the song is more of a critique of machismo and macho culture than an acceptance of it. Still, this is just my interpretation and it could be seen differently, since that whole reasoning implies that one knows that the Village People was intended for a gay audience. Without that, there is nothing to suggest the song is anything but a catchy tune celebrating macho culture.

I guess what I am trying to say here is that it is possible to be macho without necessarily accepting all the sexist, homophobic implications of it. And even if the dictionary definitions say one thing, language is dynamic and often its use changes ahead of dictionary definitions.

Although unless you're gay, I wouldn't try it.

[Pretty Flaco]

theyre just mad cus theyre skinny motherfuckers that get beat up and never go on dates.

[Blake's Baby]

Thank you, we have weiner.

That's all folks, nothing to see here, Dwayne just won the internet.

[Pretty Flaco]

Thank you, we have weiner.

That's all folks, nothing to see here, Dwayne just won the internet.

i was completely serious. :p

[The Machine]

waving your cock and saying 'look at me I'm a big boy'.


this actually sounds like a lot of fun

[Os Cangaceiros]

Aren't offensive social beliefs pretty much inherent in "machismo", lol? Certainly not inherent in masculinity, but...

[Luc]

possible triggers so.. trigger warning!

in some places i think Mexico and South Africa were the examples it was noted that the notion of sexual dominance/agressiveness as being apart of a "man" "manly" "macho" or w/e is related to gang rape becoming common as rite of passage type stuff with your friends.

edit: here quote.... its from wiki though


n many societies, men who do not act in this traditional masculine way are ostracized by their peers and considered effeminate. In studies, young males from Cambodia, Mexico, Peru and South Africa, reported that they have participated in incidents where girls were coerced into sex (such as gang rapes) and that they did so as a way to prove their masculinity to their friends, or under peer pressure and fear that they would be rejected if they didn't participate in the assault.[70]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence#The_way_males_are_social ized_and_sexual_scripts

so in that way as being sexually agressive as part of masculinity then aspiring to being masculine or promoting masculinity (rather than positive individual features of it ex. nothing wrong with strength and bravery but trying just to be those wouldnt be being masculine) can be negative

[Ostrinski]

The issue isn't with random ass people acting macho/feminine or w.e., it's how these different attitudes/behaviors are socially enforced.

[The Machine]

The issue isn't with random ass people acting macho/feminine or w.e., it's how these different attitudes/behaviors are socially enforced.

oh yeah tell me more about dialectical materialism yeah

[Misanthrope]

ITT: Other people arguing over their personal connotations associated with a fucking word.

you god damn liberals

[Sea]

The problem with acting macho is just that, acting something, intentional conforming to an outdated stereotype without regard to how you would act naturally.

Be my guest if your personality just happens to line up, in whole or in part, to the macho archetype. Just don't go overboard and don't morph yourself (out of insecurity with your own personality, perhaps) to a cookie-cutter personality because of some silly notion that society says you have to 'be manly'.

The same thing goes for acting ladylike, by the way.


ITT: Other people arguing over their personal connotations associated with a fucking word.
This.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Macho is masculinity as expressed by an asshole.

[Prometeo liberado]

By not going along with the pack mentality one is rarely seen as macho. Indeed the very western notion and perpetuation of the mythical Type "A" personality is one of absurd and counter-productive male dominance in the face of reason. It celebrates the base of human emotion and regards understanding and uniqueness as an affront on their supposed exalted position.

[shinjuku dori]

I am not against gay people at all. I think they should enjoy equal rights. But still I think that it looks ridiculous when men are wearing makeup and indistinguishable from women. What is wrong with sexual attraction and being different in appearance? If I want to have sex with a man, I can date a man. If I want to have sex with a woman, I can date a woman. I prefer if my neighbor is less pretty than my wife!

I don't want to force anyone to wear anything. And I can't. If some guys wear makeup it's their choice. Still I hate it. I can't help to think that it's a symptom of decadence. I see these guys all over Shinjuku which is like equivalent to Macau or Las Vegas here. I don't see them in the country side or suburban Tokyo.

Karl Marx said his favorite trait for a man was strength and for a woman was weakness. Condemn him?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Karl Marx said his favorite trait for a man was strength and for a woman was weakness. Condemn him?
Marx could be sexist and homophobic, but he was also born nearly two hundred years ago. I would certainly condemn a modern Marxist if they spouted such nonsense.

[#FF0000]

Karl Marx said his favorite trait for a man was strength and for a woman was weakness. Condemn him?

Sure is some dumb shit he said 200 years ago.

Anyway to the OP I think being a douchebag come part-and-parcel with being "macho".

Someone can be hella masculine without being a dick

[shinjuku dori]

So if I prefer kind of dainty woman for my girlfriend to woman who is stronger than me, I must be "dumb shit" and "sexist"?

This is insane. This has nothing to do with Bolshevik.

[shinjuku dori]

So if I prefer kind of dainty woman for my girlfriend to woman who is stronger than me, I must be "dumb shit" and "sexist"?

This is insane. This has nothing to do with Bolshevik.

[#FF0000]

So if I prefer kind of dainty woman for my girlfriend to woman who is stronger than me, I must be "dumb shit" and "sexist"?

1) Relax and don't get mad on the internet it is really embarrassing.
2) I never said that. I dunno how the whole "welp I prefer hella girly-girls in a relationship" plays in the whole "sexism" thing but if you believe that men ought to be strong/in charge/in control and women ought to be weak/submissive/subordinate in general, then yeah you're dumb as hell and a sexist.
3) What is it with dudes who explode about 'feminism' or whatever and contorting the things I say like this

[MuscularTophFan]

So if I prefer kind of dainty woman for my girlfriend to woman who is stronger than me, I must be "dumb shit" and "sexist"?
No you just have a different preference in women. Nothing to get mad over. I'm one of the few men in the world that find very strong muscular females than me to be very attractive. I'm also attracted to guys as well.

[Karabin]

The idea of being "macho" is now outdated. I've never met somebody who would consider or call themselves macho even though they fit all the descriptions previously mentioned in this thread. Now the new form of being macho is, simply put, having great "aesthetics". If you have seen videos of people like Zyzz and Chestbrah then you sort of get the idea, and their sort of mentality about going to the gym and "getting big" has become more predominant than the "macho" thing, at least in teens nowadays. But to be frank, its sort of like modern machosim or whatever.

[Agent Ducky]

3) What is it with dudes who explode about 'feminism' or whatever and contorting the things I say like this
I've noticed this. I swear, are they all part of some kind of conspiracy?


No you just have a different preference in women. Nothing to get mad over. I'm one of the few men in the world that find very strong muscular females than me to be very attractive. I'm also attracted to guys as well.

Toph. :lol:

[MuscularTophFan]

Toph. :lol:
If only she was real.:(

[GerrardWinstanley]

Machismo is inherently compensatory I think, not to mention immature. I am by no means a fan of the patriarchal ideas men traditionally aspired to before the wave of social changes brought about by feminism, but I don't see them as the same thing. The former is a reaction to the narcissistic injury dealt to the latter by the advancement of women's rights in the 20th Century.

Plus, why identify with a culture that makes society a more violent, unpleasant place to live? Machismo is intimately connected with misogyny, homophobia, fascism, extremely low empathy, jingoism, racism, police and state brutality all the way down to violent crime.

I'm absolutely not implying you are complicit in any of those things by the way. Still that would be a couple of reasons I don't like machismo. I think people have a right to be hypermasculine if they wish... just as long as nobody else is intimidated and threatened into taking part in it (intimidation, physical or otherwise, is how macho culture operates) and there is, shall we say, room for improvement on that one in our society.