Icaria, Greece's 'Red Island'

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Quite an amusing article to read in the Vanguard of capitalist press.

http://http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303734204577470471862628442.html

[Deicide]

The link doesn't work, for me at least.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

The link doesn't work, for me at least.

Yeah, don't know what's wrong, i kept reposting it. Google the title and add WSJ then you will see it.

[Skyhilist]

Here's what came up when I searched it. Obviously a one sided story full of lies, exaggerations, and demagogy, but still pretty interesting. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303734204577470471862628442.html

[ВАЛТЕР]

Pretty much just anti-communist propaganda.

Which is good in a way. If they are writing about us, that means we are still relevant I guess.

The comments made me facepalm, basically a right wing circle-jerk about how bad socialism/communism is.

[Deicide]

Well, I read it. I found it quite amusing, considering Marxist-Leninists are an utter joke, and are not Communists or Marxists, by any margin, as far as I'm concerned. They're more akin to religious fundamentalists. They're like that awkward guy in the room with a dodgy 70s haircut, repugnant bo, and a che Guevara t-shirt.


"You have Cuba, North Korea, and Icaria," says Anthony Papalas, a professor emeritus of Greek and Roman history at East Carolina University in Greenville, N.C., who has written extensively about the island and calls it one of the world's few communist bastions. "It's like stepping into a time capsule."

That's quite obviously false. Apart from the time capsule analogy. Which is perfect as it summarises a high percentage of the left today, not just the dying and irrelevant Marxist-Leninist cults that scatter the globe.

[Crux]

"Long live the KKE," Dimitris Mavratzotis, a gastroenterologist and Communist Party candidate for parliament for the area including Icaria, blared into a microphone at a rally on the island earlier this week in a small mountain village. Behind him hung a poster that read, "Don't trust Syriza."

My bold. *clap clap clap clap* I eagerly await the KKE report stating what a great success this election was. If it wasn't for that high SYRIZA vote of course. But otherwise great.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Well, I read it. I found it quite amusing, considering Marxist-Leninists are an utter joke, and are not Communists or Marxists, by any margin, as far as I'm concerned. They're more akin to religious fundamentalists. They're like that awkward guy in the room with a dodgy 70s haircut, repugnant bo, and a che Guevara t-shirt.



That's quite obviously false. Apart from the time capsule analogy. Which is perfect as it summarises a high percentage of the left today, not just the dying and irrelevant Marxist-Leninist cults that scatter the globe.


Wait, what do 70's haircuts have to do with stalinists?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Aleka Papariga, the KKE General Secretary, actually urged people to vote for Syriza.

[Crux]

Aleka Papariga, the KKE General Secretary, actually urged people to vote for Syriza.
:P So you didn't happen to set up a twitter account recently...?

Still imagine how dissapointed the KKE must be. What will they now do with all their "Down with the SYRIZA government!" merchandise?

[FSL]

My bold. *clap clap clap clap* I eagerly await the KKE report stating what a great success this election was. If it wasn't for that high SYRIZA vote of course. But otherwise great.

It wasn't a success. It wasn't a success and one reason for this was that people did trust the new Pasok.

I don't think it's a communist's job to feed people lies.

[Crux]

It wasn't a success. It wasn't a success and one reason for this was that people did trust the new Pasok.

I don't think it's a communist's job to feed people lies.
you don't? Shame about your party affiliation then, comrade. It must be tough being the only left organization in greece, what with the anarcho-fascists and...PASOK. It must take much restraint not to dig up the good old term "social fascists". You couldn't make it up.

[FSL]

you don't? Shame about your party affiliation then, comrade. It must be tough being the only left organization in greece, what with the anarcho-fascists and...PASOK. It must take much restraint not to dig up the good old term "social fascists". You couldn't make it up.
Lenin called those social democrats, who in the name of the working class betrayed it, social chauvinists long before the good old term "social fascism" was used. Probably he was also a sectarian, going against pretty much everyone, not understanding that it was necessity of the time and the common will of the people to fight for their country and that socialists should support the war effort.


So what is your point if there is one? That Syriza do deserve the workers' trust because their negotiation in the EU would make things so much better for us?
It doesn't make me a sectarian to disagree with you on that. It makes me right. And no worries, no one is about to give up and "start being more rational" over one bad election result. The crisis is still here and won't go away no matter how well the negotiations go.

[o well this is ok I guess]

:P So you didn't happen to set up a twitter account recently...?

Still imagine how dissapointed the KKE must be. What will they now do with all their "Down with the SYRIZA government!" merchandise? Put it in storage with their old coalition merchandise, for when they feel like using it again.

[Crux]

Put it in storage with their old coalition merchandise, for when they feel like using it again.
now now that might still come in handy. After all there is an urgent need of unity to defeat the main enemy, so an anti-SYRIZA coalition with ND? Of course I am being facetious, the KKE would never ally with ND. Again

[Welshy]

now now that might still come in handy. After all there is an urgent need of unity to defeat the main enemy, so an anti-SYRIZA coalition with ND? Of course I am being facetious, the KKE would never ally with ND. Again

You are aware at that time Synaspismos was still a part of the KKE so if you are going to criticize the KKE for that then Synaspismos and by extension SYRIZA since SYRIZA's leadership is from Synaspismos should be equally criticized for that.

[FSL]

You are aware at that time Synaspismos was still a part of the KKE so if you are going to criticize the KKE for that then Synaspismos and by extension SYRIZA since SYRIZA's leadership is from Synaspismos should be equally criticized for that.
Back then his own organization was practicing "entryism" in Pasok.
Pasok then, Syriza today, hmm.

Also the ones that took ministerial positions weren't from the communist party but from synaspismos. Reality is a tough thing.



Majakovskij, why can't I get an answer from you anywhere?

[Crux]

You are aware at that time Synaspismos was still a part of the KKE so if you are going to criticize the KKE for that then Synaspismos and by extension SYRIZA since SYRIZA's leadership is from Synaspismos should be equally criticized for that.
and those parliamentary cretinists in DIMAR as well. I'm not sure where FSL gets the idea that I am some kind of cheerleader for the SYN leadership. I am pretty sure that's not a pre-requisite for finding KKE's line re SYRIZA to be wrong in a "funny if it wasn't so tragic" way.

[FSL]

and those parliamentary cretinists in DIMAR as well. I'm not sure where FSL gets the idea that I am some kind of cheerleader for the SYN leadership. I am pretty sure that's not a pre-requisite for finding KKE's line re SYRIZA to be wrong in a "funny if it wasn't so tragic" way.

You insist on not explaining what a better line is.
Because if that line is "support Syriza in its effort to negotiate a better deal" of course it makes you a left-of-center Syriza cheerleader. What would you think it makes you?

[Crux]

You insist on not explaining what a better line is.
Because if that line is "support Syriza in its effort to negotiate a better deal" of course it makes you a left-of-center Syriza cheerleader. What would you think it makes you?
Do you genuinely believe that? Is KKE's miseducation of their members so strong that you believe either your own secterian position or the one you desperetly try to claim I have the only two conceivable options?

[Crux]

Btw FSL a sort of short explanation on what my position is: http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2464285&postcount=18

[FSL]

So, out of Dragasakis' interview in China Daily and out of Tsipras' interview in Reuters, you get that they are reformists who we could push in a certain direction, we could push them to get into conflict with capital.
No. They'd do exactly what was necessary to manage the capitalist crisis -because that is what they want- and at the same time spread an enormous amount of disappointment everywhere with another round of "big lies from politicians".


You talk about governments in latin america. Tsipras has a thousand times said how much he admires Obama and his amazing way of handling the crisis (that is racking up debt to boost capitalism , debt that the people will obviously pay with huge cuts in medical care and social security later on).
Why even mention Chavez then? Chavez is no communist but at least he doesn't avoid conflict with a passion. One might claim Venezuela adopts an anti-imperialist stance. What does Syriza have to do with that? Just say that Obama's is a government of reformists people can "push". That would be a good analogy.

[Crux]

So, out of Dragasakis' interview in China Daily and out of Tsipras' interview in Reuters, you get that they are reformists who we could push in a certain direction, we could push them to get into conflict with capital.
No. They'd do exactly what was necessary to manage the capitalist crisis -because that is what they want- and at the same time spread an enormous amount of disappointment everywhere with another round of "big lies from politicians".


You talk about governments in latin america. Tsipras has a thousand times said how much he admires Obama and his amazing way of handling the crisis (that is racking up debt to boost capitalism , debt that the people will obviously pay with huge cuts in medical care and social security later on).
Why even mention Chavez then? Chavez is no communist but at least he doesn't avoid conflict with a passion. One might claim Venezuela adopts an anti-imperialist stance. What does Syriza have to do with that? Just say that Obama's is a government of reformists people can "push". That would be a good analogy.
I disagree and I responded much more extensively in the repetive elections thread. I think you are letting your KKE-blinders keep you from seeing the whole situation, but do I hope we can have a discussion and I hope that you respond in the other thread, comrade.

[A Marxist Historian]

Back then his own organization was practicing "entryism" in Pasok.
Pasok then, Syriza today, hmm...



Majakovski, is this correct?

If so, that does rather cut the ground out of your criticisms of the KKE.

-M.H.-

[Delenda Carthago]

Majakovski, is this correct?

If so, that does rather cut the ground out of your criticisms of the KKE.

-M.H.-
Hell yeah its true. Matter of fact, the now president of GSEE, Panagopoulos, a total PASOKist piece of shit, was in Xekinima(greek CWI) when they entered PASOK and he just stayed there.

[Crux]

Majakovski, is this correct?

If so, that does rather cut the ground out of your criticisms of the KKE.

-M.H.-
For someone's who's been around so long I find it hard to take your "chock" at finding out the CWI has practiced entryism in the socialdemocratic parties some 20 years ago as genuine. We also had members in the KKE by the way.

[Grenzer]

Jeezus. The Trots of revleft are still beating the social-democracy drum?

Syriza is a reformist capitalist party and doesn't pretend to be anything else. Bizarre that anyone who calls themselves a revolutionary could support them. Falling into anti-austerity populism is sheer opportunism. Our main goal should be to push revolution, and supporting reformist shits like Syriza does absolutely nothing to that end. They have zero capacity to play a role in advancing the interest of the workers.

[Crux]

Jeezus. The Trots of revleft are still beating the social-democracy drum?

Syriza is a reformist capitalist party and doesn't pretend to be anything else. Bizarre that anyone who calls themselves a revolutionary could support them. Falling into anti-austerity populism is sheer opportunism. Our main goal should be to push revolution, and supporting reformist shits like Syriza does absolutely nothing to that end. They have zero capacity to play a role in advancing the interest of the workers.
I don't think an acolyte of DNZ would have much to say on this. And thing's are a bit more complex than just proclaiming the revolution.

[A Marxist Historian]

For someone's who's been around so long I find it hard to take your "chock" at finding out the CWI has practiced entryism in the socialdemocratic parties some 20 years ago as genuine. We also had members in the KKE by the way.

Except that PASOK is not and never was a Social Democratic party. It is and always was simply a bourgeois party, the Greek equivalent of the Democrats in the USA or the Lib Dems in England.

I know the IMT has entered outright bourgeois parties, as in Pakistan lately for example, but I didn't know that the CWI had been doing that too.

Or, if this was 20 years ago, was this before the split?

-M.H.-

[Crux]

Except that PASOK is not and never was a Social Democratic party. It is and always was simply a bourgeois party, the Greek equivalent of the Democrats in the USA or the Lib Dems in England.

I know the IMT has entered outright bourgeois parties, as in Pakistan lately for example, but I didn't know that the CWI had been doing that too.

Or, if this was 20 years ago, was this before the split?

-M.H.-
I am a bit hazy on the exact timeline here but my guesstimate is that the CWI de facto left PASOK some time mid-80's. Post the CWI-IMT split the IMT tried to work in PASOK for a few years but eventually split with the current IMT section being those who opted for leaving PASOK in favour of SYN.
I don't necessarely think it was wrong to have a dual orientation, KKE and PASOK, in the 70's or that PASOK was "just another bourgeosie party" at that time. But I joined the CWI in 2007 not so much based on historical positions but the positions we have now. I wouldn't join the IMT, despite agreeing with them on many things, precisely because they in their orientation can't tell the difference between 1972 and 2012. I think you too might agree that things have changed a bit since the 70's.