Karl Marx Credit Cards Prove a Hit in Eastern Germany

[bricolage]

Two decades after the fall of the Berlin Wall, some eastern Germans are once again carrying round images of Karl Marx -- if only in their pockets.

The disappearance of communist former East Germany has not deterred them from using credit cards emblazoned with the image of the man who foretold the end of capitalism and the triumph of communism.

More than a third of customers at Sparkasse Bank in Chemnitz opted for the picture of a bronze bust of the bearded 19th-century German-born philosopher, bank spokesman Roger Wirtz said.
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.dailyfinance.com/media/2012/06/karl-marx-on-mastercard-b.jpg
http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/06/15/karl-marx-credit-cards-prove-a-hit-in-eastern-germany/

[Q]

Aww, I want one too!

The irony is just lovely :cool:

[ВАЛТЕР]

:confused:

I find this insulting...

[Robocommie]

As weird as this is (and it's very weird) I think it says something that East Germans want to carry around Karl Marx's image.

[ComradeOm]

...or, more accurately, a GDR-era representation of Marx. That Chemnitz used to be called Karl-Marx-Stadt suggests that this is more a case of ostalgie than rising class conciousness

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

I rather see them have GDR-ostalgie than nazi-ostalgie though. At least this way he is seen by people often, which could lead more people to his works.

[ComradeOm]

Don't confuse 'Marx's works' with a 'stylised stone bust of Marx on a credit card'. It's quite unlikely that anyone is going to arrive at the Manifesto via Mastercard. I see no propaganda benefit from this bank offering

And ostalgie always refers to the GDR

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

Don't confuse 'Marx's works' with a 'stylised stone bust of Marx on a credit card'. It's quite unlikely that anyone is going to arrive at the Manifesto via Mastercard. I see no propaganda benefit from this bank offering

And ostalgie always refers to the GDR

Is ot though? I think I would arrive earlier at the manifesto if he is on my creditcard than when I don't see him anywhere. Sure, it may not be much value as propaganda, but at least it is something.

[Robocommie]

Don't confuse 'Marx's works' with a 'stylised stone bust of Marx on a credit card'. It's quite unlikely that anyone is going to arrive at the Manifesto via Mastercard. I see no propaganda benefit from this bank offering

And ostalgie always refers to the GDR

Quite frankly, I think Ostalgia is encouraging. I come from a country where you can barely even mention Marxism without hearing people go on about how awful Marxism is because it crushes people's freedom and that Stalin and Mao killed millions of people. In terms of the DDR, the prevailing message has been a fixation on the Stasi and the Berlin Wall and how evil it all was. Now we have working class voices, disaffected by the total apathy that capitalism shows to them, expressing that the DDR had some real positives characteristics. I don't see how that's anything but good. Anything to encourage a vision of the Soviet bloc other than "Red Nazis"

[ComradeOm]

Is ot though? I think I would arrive earlier at the manifesto if he is on my creditcard than when I don't see him anywhere"Oh yeah, I might walk past that horribly kitsch statue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Karl-Marx-Monument_in_Chemnitz.jpg) every day, but now that I've chosen to put it on a credit card I suddenly feel the urge the abolish the capitalist mode of production!"


Now we have working class voices, disaffected by the total apathy that capitalism shows to them, expressing that the DDR had some real positives characteristics. I don't see how that's anything but good. Anything to encourage a vision of the Soviet bloc other than "Red Nazis"Which implies that there was anything remotely socialist or worth emulating in those run-down police states. Ostalgie is notable as a dissatisfaction with post-GDR capitalism (or at least the cultural trappings of this) but is in no way progressive, never mind revolutionary. Unless you think the latter is all about recreating a decaying post-Stalinist client state, of course

[Kenco Smooth]

:confused:

I find this insulting...

Why on earth would you find it insulting? Unless one must not desecrate the image of the great Marx?

[Comrade Samuel]

Good, step 1 is complete but now they all have to over use it and spend money on any stupid thing that looks even slightly appealing so that the top 1% can start hoarding all of the wealth and drive the economy into the ground so that the workers have no choice but to unite and overthrow the capitalist government.

Yeah, that's how these will work!

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

"Oh yeah, I might walk past that horribly kitsch statue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Karl-Marx-Monument_in_Chemnitz.jpg) every day, but now that I've chosen to put it on a credit card I suddenly feel the urge the abolish the capitalist mode of production!"

Which implies that there was anything remotely socialist or worth emulating in those run-down police states. Ostalgie is notable as a dissatisfaction with post-GDR capitalism (or at least the cultural trappings of this) but is in no way progressive, never mind revolutionary. Unless you think the latter is all about recreating a decaying post-Stalinist client state, of course

Look, I'm not saying this is going to greatly impact the communist movement. I'm just saying that it at least is better than the usual "Communism=Murder"-shit.

[Deicide]

I want a Stalin credit card.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Why on earth would you find it insulting? Unless one must not desecrate the image of the great Marx?

We are being ridiculed by capitalists in such a way that Karl Marx is being put on credit cards. It's kind of a slap in the face I feel. Not because I care about Karl Marx being used for advertising, but that it is being used by banks, in the middle of an economic crisis, on credit cards which are used to enslave people in debt. We are being mocked, and I don't like it.

[Ocean Seal]

...or, more accurately, a GDR-era representation of Marx. That Chemnitz used to be called Karl-Marx-Stadt suggests that this is more a case of ostalgie than rising class conciousness
Ostalgie shouldn't be treated as a bad thing, unless you expect the workers to have some absurdly high level of class consciousness. Ostalgie is basically the desire to have the progressive reforms of the GDR. And communism is not achieved by ideology but rather by class struggle. Not class struggle for communism but just class struggle for improvements and autonomy.

[ComradeOm]

See above. Beyond registering a discontent with the now, ostalgie has nothing to do with class struggle. No more than any nostalgic yearning for some barely remembered and half-imaginary 'golden age' has. It leads not to class struggle but to people putting Marx statues on their credit cards

[Robocommie]

I want a Stalin credit card.

Go super ironic and get Bordiga

[Vanguard1917]

Ostalgie is basically the desire to have the progressive reforms of the GDR.

It's the credit-card brand of a globally dominant American financial corporation.

Om is right, of course.

[Anarcho-Brocialist]

I'd be willing to wager Marx would loath the site of him being pictured on a credit card.

[Anarcho-Brocialist]

Have you guys seen the comment section on the link? Shameful display of ignorance!

[Yuppie Grinder]

brb getting a custom made stalin mastercard

[seventeethdecember2016]

This has to be one of the biggest trolls in history.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I believe this is what the Situationists might call "recuperation."

[RedSonRising]

And I thought Che Guevara backpacks at Wal-Mart were bad. But it's true their popularity does mean something.

[TheAltruist]

I believe this is what the Situationists might call "recuperation."
Stole what I was going to say!! But really, you're exactly right. The "Spectacle" (the whole system of mass media that is used to mask the degeneration of life while under capitalism) "recuperates." This is to say that even the most radical acts are somehow made into commodities to be sold. In Che Guevara's case, giving a false air of rebellion.

In this case however, it seems that they want to strike right into the heart of some Leftist ideas. It's not enough to romantically portray a Marxist revolutionary on a t-shirt, but the man whose ideas he followed and died for. Even more ironically, Marx's image is cast onto part the system that he hated the most.

[Skyhilist]

This is pretty sad...

[Psy]

See above. Beyond registering a discontent with the now, ostalgie has nothing to do with class struggle. No more than any nostalgic yearning for some barely remembered and half-imaginary 'golden age' has. It leads not to class struggle but to people putting Marx statues on their credit cards

Ostalgie is a symptom of caused by the decline of material conditions of the east Germany, it is basically the workers coming to realization that they are worse off now then 25 years ago. It is not half-imaginary it is fact that workers of east Germany are now more exploited, they were still exploited under the GDR and that is really the only sticking point that the GDR fell because of the rate of exploits then and the workers then had good reason to revolt against the GDR.

[Geiseric]

I'd bet that che guevara would hate being on a bunch of tee-shirts sold by GAP and sewn by slave laborers as well. I don't see why the bank thought it would be a good idea, if anybody explores even superficially into Marx they'll see the evil behind their credit card.

[Ismail]

Which implies that there was anything remotely socialist or worth emulating in those run-down police states.Which is weird since many East Germans evidently did think just that. In the 1989-1990 period as many Trots could tell you, and also various non-leftist commentators, a lot of the inhabitants of the country wanted a magical synthesis between capitalism and "socialism." There wasn't a free market mania with the fall of the Wall, in part because the reunification of Germany looked more like the West annexing the East and then neglecting it.

Today a lot of ex-GDR citizens want the same sort of magical synthesis, "socialism without the Stasi."

[Psy]

Today a lot of ex-GDR citizens want the same sort of magical synthesis, "socialism without the Stasi."

But the counter productive nature of the Stasi help lead to the collapse of the GDR. The CIA was had free run of the GDR because the Stasi wasted their resources with witch hunts that turned East Germans against the state. The CIA infiltrating the Stasi would not have provided any better results for the CIA then the Stasi shooting itself in the foot on its own.

[Prometeo liberado]

But the counter productive nature of the Stasi help lead to the collapse of the GDR. The CIA was had free run of the GDR because the Stasi wasted their resources with witch hunts that turned East Germans against the state. The CIA infiltrating the Stasi would not have provided any better results for the CIA then the Stasi shooting itself in the foot on its own.

Remember when this thread was about a credit card?

[Lokomotive293]

See above. Beyond registering a discontent with the now, ostalgie has nothing to do with class struggle. No more than any nostalgic yearning for some barely remembered and half-imaginary 'golden age' has. It leads not to class struggle but to people putting Marx statues on their credit cards

I don't think you should underestimate Ostalgie. The bourgeoisie would love to have people forget about the GDR, or have them think of nothing other than the "Stasi", Bautzen, the wall,...
Nevertheless, there are still people who remember what it was really like, which means that, in addition to being discontent with the now, they know that there is an alternative to the current system. It's not revolutionary consciousness, of course, but it's something you can work with.
And having a statue of Karl Marx in your town does have an impact. Not too sure about that credit card.

[DrZaiu5]

I highly doubt that Karl Marx would be happy to see his image used in such a capitalistic way.

[DasFapital]

god dammit, I just know some asshole hipster is walking around with one of these in his wallet.

[Igor]

I mean yeah I don't really have anything against the idea because it's only a fucking credit card picture but why did they have to pick such an ugly picture eludes me.

[Tim Finnegan]

I actually kind of like this. Marx's face looming behind your bank details like Marxian theory looming behind the facade of capitalism. Or, y'know, something like that. http://forums.civfanatics.com/images/smilies/crazyeyes.gif

[cynicles]

god dammit, I just know some asshole hipster is walking around with one of these in his wallet.

When the revolution comes can we make an exception and ban hipsters? Please!

[Psy]

I highly doubt that Karl Marx would be happy to see his image used in such a capitalistic way.
Why? according to the article even west Germans are interested in having a credit card with the image of Karl Mark on it. Also from the article A 2008 survey found 52% of eastern Germans believed the free market economy was "unsuitable" and 43% said they wanted socialism back.

[Tim Finnegan]

"Back"?

[o well this is ok I guess]

damn that thing is creepy

[Rafiq]

damn that thing is creepy

How

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Dire Helix]

"Back"?

It means "towards a former condition, location or past time".

[Psy]

"Back"?
You have to look at it from the eyes of the east Germans that lived through the GDR. East Germany went from a industrial powerhouse of the Comecon to a de-industrialized rust belt, so a growing number looks back at their material conditions under the GDR in a positive light.

They have not reached the class consciousness to deconstruct the GDR, just enough to start comparing material conditions now to then.

[Tim Finnegan]

I understand that East Germans might want to go back to being an industrial powerhouse, but it's quite beyond me what that has to do with socialism.

[o well this is ok I guess]

How

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2 The bust, I mean. Not the credit card itself.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Aww, I want one too!

The irony is just lovely :cool:

I have an savings-account with Spar-Kasse, they are assholes, maybe i can ask if i can just get a credit card without opening a debit account with them... I want Marx in my pocket!

[Psy]

I understand that East Germans might want to go back to being an industrial powerhouse, but it's quite beyond me what that has to do with socialism.
The fact that the GDR was draped in socialist imagery
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7153/6826772521_40bb205e23.jpg

And that capitalists don't refute the GDR's claim to being socialists, so the bulk of east Germans (that are not exposed to Marxists) simply go with this labelling of the GDR as having been socialist.

[Tim Finnegan]

Why should we care what they call the GDR, if the word for us means something entirely different? If people said that Roosevelt was a socialist, we wouldn't take it to mean that an upsurge in Roosevelt nostalgia meant anything for the communist movement, so why do we do assume it here?

[Ismail]

Germany was the birthplace of Marx, Engels and various other early revolutionaries, plus it had Luxemburg and Liebknecht, so obviously the GDR was going to take advantage of that.

But yes, the GDR focused on "consumer socialism." In economic terms it wasn't much different from 1980's Sweden. Genuine Marxist-Leninists were persecuted (http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv5n1/gdrkpd.htm) and Albanian materials were prohibited. Ulbricht and Honecker strongly followed the Soviet revisionist line.

[Psy]

Why should we care what they call the GDR, if the word for us means something entirely different? If people said that Roosevelt was a socialist, we wouldn't take it to mean that an upsurge in Roosevelt nostalgia meant anything for the communist movement, so why do we do assume it here?
Because Roosevelt wasn't wrapped in Marxist lip service. The GDR tried to project itself as being on the path to communism and following the ideas of Marx and Engels (thus why they erected statues of them).

We also have to take into account the ruling class of the GDR is now part of the German ruling class that wants to simply paint the GDR as being simply horrid and that the GDR had no good points, as the German ruling class now feels threatened by the old propaganda of the GDR that talked of the evils of capitalism. Sure we have Marx on a credit card but only because the bank saw the consumer demand and didn't want to lose market share.

[Tim Finnegan]

Because Roosevelt wasn't wrapped in Marxist lip service. The GDR tried to project itself as being on the path to communism and following the ideas of Marx and Engels (thus why they erected statues of them).
So what? History is not driven by ideas, let alone the cynical cartoon of ideas.


We also have to take into account the ruling class of the GDR is now part of the German ruling class that wants to simply paint the GDR as being simply horrid and that the GDR had no good points, as the German ruling class now feels threatened by the old propaganda of the GDR that talked of the evils of capitalism. Sure we have Marx on a credit card but only because the bank saw the consumer demand and didn't want to lose market share.The ruling class feels threatened by the popularity of Front National, Golden Dawn and Jobbik, but that doesn't mean that we should regard fascism as a good thing. The ruling class are not the material embodiment of a universal principle of capital, they are a specific group of people with specific interests that can be and are threatened by other movements within the terms of capital. The only power capable of challenging capital-in-itself may be the proletariat, but any given capitalist is nowhere near so secure.

[Psy]

So what? History is not driven by ideas, let alone the cynical cartoon of ideas.

The ruling class feels threatened by the popularity of Front National, Golden Dawn and Jobbik, but that doesn't mean that we should regard fascism as a good thing. The ruling class are not the material embodiment of a universal principle of capital, they are a specific group of people with specific interests that can be and are threatened by other movements within the terms of capital. The only power capable of challenging capital-in-itself may be the proletariat, but any given capitalist is nowhere near so secure.

Your missing the point, there no longer is a GDR ruling class as there is no longer a GDR state or even the Socialist Unity Party of Germany is gone, so all the GDR propaganda against capitalism takes on a new context as Germans are not dissecting the GDR instead they are cherry picking thus old GDR propaganda gets reanimated and takes on new meaning. Yes eventually they will have to dissect the GDR to avoid creating another GDR in a revolution but short of that it represents their current class frustration because that is how they interpret the GDR.

[Per Levy]

I'd be willing to wager Marx would loath the site of him being pictured on a credit card.

i think marx would be much more insulted by the big ugly sculpture that is potrait on the credit card tbh.

[Tim Finnegan]

Your missing the point, there no longer is a GDR ruling class as there is no longer a GDR state or even the Socialist Unity Party of Germany is gone, so all the GDR propaganda against capitalism takes on a new context as Germans are not dissecting the GDR instead they are cherry picking thus old GDR propaganda gets reanimated and takes on new meaning. Yes eventually they will have to dissect the GDR to avoid creating another GDR in a revolution but short of that it represents their current class frustration because that is how they interpret the GDR.
And yet again, I am forced to say, so what? The GDR's "anti-capitalism" was nothing of the sort, it was just a series of demands for nationalisation, high taxes and social welfare. If you think that constitutes socialism, even in an authentically democratic form, then you're just a social democrat with a stiffy for the Bolsheviks.

[Psy]

And yet again, I am forced to say, so what? The GDR's "anti-capitalism" was nothing of the sort, it was just a series of demands for nationalisation, high taxes and social welfare. If you think that constitutes socialism, even in an authentically democratic form, then you're just a social democrat with a stiffy for the Bolsheviks.

But the context has changed. Now the GDR represents the jobs they have lost wrapped in a anti-capitalist explanation along with imagery of Marx. The true nature of the GDR is beside the point as Germans are looking at how the GDR projected itself and that is had jobs. The commodities of the GDR are being remembered in a positive light now as east Germans consumed them when they had jobs in the GDR, and in some cases are the commodities their labor produced so they are linking these commodities to jobs.

Now that over production means capitalism can't offer the same employment rate as the GDR this puts the GDR in a different context now. Meaning nostalgia for the GDR at worse is harmless and at best exposes German workers to anti-capitalist ideas as they look into who this Karl Marx was.

[KurtFF8]

Why should we care what they call the GDR, if the word for us means something entirely different? If people said that Roosevelt was a socialist, we wouldn't take it to mean that an upsurge in Roosevelt nostalgia meant anything for the communist movement, so why do we do assume it here?

That's quite different. The GDR bombarded the world with slogans about socialism throughout its' entire existence and claimed to be building socialism under the leadership of the Socialist Unity Party.

Whether or not you agree with this label or not, it certainly makes sense for folks to label the GDR as having been socialist (as most likely most folks have not read the proper theories of "state capitalism" or whatnot)


But the context has changed. Now the GDR represents the jobs they have lost wrapped in a anti-capitalist explanation along with imagery of Marx. The true nature of the GDR is beside the point as Germans are looking at how the GDR projected itself and that is had jobs. The commodities of the GDR are being remembered in a positive light now as east Germans consumed them when they had jobs in the GDR, and in some cases are the commodities their labor produced so they are linking these commodities to jobs.

Now that over production means capitalism can't offer the same employment rate as the GDR this puts the GDR in a different context now. Meaning nostalgia for the GDR at worse is harmless and at best exposes German workers to anti-capitalist ideas as they look into who this Karl Marx was.

Exactly, it's essentially become an "empty signifier" (Lacalu's term) for these current hardships experienced by life after being absorbed by FRG. Some thinkers like Zizek warn against putting any faith in things like Ostalgie, but I think it could have potential, at least it seemed like it did with the rise of Die Linke, but now I'm not sure what direction it's going.

[A Marxist Historian]

...or, more accurately, a GDR-era representation of Marx. That Chemnitz used to be called Karl-Marx-Stadt suggests that this is more a case of ostalgie than rising class conciousness

Essentially, ostalgie is a form of class consciousness, as the GDR was a deformed workers state.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

I understand that East Germans might want to go back to being an industrial powerhouse, but it's quite beyond me what that has to do with socialism.

Industrial powerhouse is an overstatement for the GDR, and I doubt too many East Germans care that you no longer have posters about how the GDR is equalling & exceeding the West in steel production or what have you.

But the East Germans do feel nostalgic for no unemployment, no homelessness, no bands of Nazi skinheads roaming the streets, free education available for all, the best daycare in the world for working women, far more social equality in general, etc. etc.

And in my book, that has one hell of a lot to do with socialism.

Getting Karl Marx on your mastercard is a feeble expression of this, but I am sure that East Germans appreciate the irony at least as well as Revleft posters.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

Germany was the birthplace of Marx, Engels and various other early revolutionaries, plus it had Luxemburg and Liebknecht, so obviously the GDR was going to take advantage of that.

But yes, the GDR focused on "consumer socialism." In economic terms it wasn't much different from 1980's Sweden. Genuine Marxist-Leninists were persecuted (http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv5n1/gdrkpd.htm) and Albanian materials were prohibited. Ulbricht and Honecker strongly followed the Soviet revisionist line.

Genuine Marxist-Leninists are Trotskyists, and they most certainly were persecuted under U and H, rather more so than Albania fans.

Saying that the GDR wasn't much different from 1980s Sweden is economic ignorance. Sweden was then and is now the land of monopoly capitalism. Sweden had then a much *lower* percentage of government ownership than most other European countries.

The first basis of Swedish social reforms was getting rich by staying out of both WWI and WWII and selling arms, the Nazi Blitzkrieg would never have gotten so far without all those fine Swedish ballbearings in the panzers.

The second basis was a deal between the unions and the big corporations to screw small businessmn. The big corporations welcomes Swedish social reform measures and high taxes, because they could afford them, whereas small and medium-sized businesses could not and went bankrupt, removing the competition. Resulting in probably the most thoroughly monopolistic business setup in the entire world.

Since the '80s, with the purpose accomplished, the Social Dems have usually been out of office, and the social welfare measures have been radically cut back on.

-M.H.-

[A Marxist Historian]

So what? History is not driven by ideas, let alone the cynical cartoon of ideas.

The ruling class feels threatened by the popularity of Front National, Golden Dawn and Jobbik, but that doesn't mean that we should regard fascism as a good thing. The ruling class are not the material embodiment of a universal principle of capital, they are a specific group of people with specific interests that can be and are threatened by other movements within the terms of capital. The only power capable of challenging capital-in-itself may be the proletariat, but any given capitalist is nowhere near so secure.

Oh are they? The French capitalists don't seem terribly threatened by the Front National, which has become remarkably respectable lately. In Italy, the successor party to the fascists is in and out of government, with nobody raising an eyebrow.

And in Greece the cops vote for Golden Dawn already, and it is no secret that lots of businessmen are wondering if Golden Dawn is what they need now to suppress the workers.

If you can't tell the difference between Germany under Hitler and Germany under Honecker, then you are simply a McCarthyite anti-communist reactionary.

-M.H.-

[Psy]

Industrial powerhouse is an overstatement for the GDR, and I doubt too many East Germans care that you no longer have posters about how the GDR is equalling & exceeding the West in steel production or what have you.

Not for the Comecon next to the USSR the GDR was the second most technologically advanced nation in the Comecon and contributed a lot of the technology of the Comecon including GDR electronics, by 1986 the GDR had overtaken the USSR's semi-conductor industry in terms of output. Which resulted in the GDR having a significant computer industry.



But the East Germans do feel nostalgic for no unemployment, no homelessness, no bands of Nazi skinheads roaming the streets, free education available for all, the best daycare in the world for working women, far more social equality in general, etc. etc.

And in my book, that has one hell of a lot to do with socialism.

Agreed

[Tim Finnegan]

But the context has changed. Now the GDR represents the jobs they have lost wrapped in a anti-capitalist explanation along with imagery of Marx. The true nature of the GDR is beside the point as Germans are looking at how the GDR projected itself and that is had jobs. The commodities of the GDR are being remembered in a positive light now as east Germans consumed them when they had jobs in the GDR, and in some cases are the commodities their labor produced so they are linking these commodities to jobs.

Now that over production means capitalism can't offer the same employment rate as the GDR this puts the GDR in a different context now. Meaning nostalgia for the GDR at worse is harmless and at best exposes German workers to anti-capitalist ideas as they look into who this Karl Marx was.

That's quite different. The GDR bombarded the world with slogans about socialism throughout its' entire existence and claimed to be building socialism under the leadership of the Socialist Unity Party.

Whether or not you agree with this label or not, it certainly makes sense for folks to label the GDR as having been socialist (as most likely most folks have not read the proper theories of "state capitalism" or whatnot)
Did ever occur to any of you berks that maybe there's more to this business than a nebulously formal "anti-capitalism"? Class struggle, perhaps? The emancipation of the working class? The abolition of wage-labour? This ringing any bells?



Oh are they? The French capitalists don't seem terribly threatened by the Front National, which has become remarkably respectable lately. In Italy, the successor party to the fascists is in and out of government, with nobody raising an eyebrow.

And in Greece the cops vote for Golden Dawn already, and it is no secret that lots of businessmen are wondering if Golden Dawn is what they need now to suppress the workers.
And yet again I'm forced to point out that the bourgoisie are a not a monolithic bloc, but a motley assortment of loosely connected individuals, so the fact that some of them- or their armed attendants- show enthusiasm for the fash does not meant that the bourgeois state is particularly welcome to it. Unless threatened by a general challenge to capital, as in Greece, they are much happier without all the fuss that the goose-stepping fuckheads inevitably bring with them.


If you can't tell the difference between Germany under Hitler and Germany under Honecker, then you are simply a McCarthyite anti-communist reactionary.Oh, piss off.

[Psy]

Did ever occur to any of you berks that maybe there's more to this business than a nebulously formal "anti-capitalism"? Class struggle, perhaps? The emancipation of the working class? The abolition of wage-labour? This ringing any bells?


And how do you expect workers to get to that level of class consciousness? How do you expect eastern Germans to react to east Germany going from having the highest living standards in the Comecon to being a de-industrialization nation filled with poverty and unemployment? What are the GDR computer engineers that built super computer for the USSR suppose to think about the GDR now they are considered unskilled labor?

[Per Levy]

Essentially, ostalgie is a form of class consciousness, as the GDR was a deformed workers state.

no on both your claims, ostalgie is hardly a form of class concious but more a form of nostalgie that things were better in those days or just an expression to get products that allready existet in the gdr(in that way ostalgie serves capital). most people in east germany knows they get screwed by capitalists but most of these people also dont like socialism very mch becasue of the gdr.

and the gdr wasnt a "deformed workers state" it was a puppet regime installed by the soviet union.


Getting Karl Marx on your mastercard is a feeble expression of this, but I am sure that East Germans appreciate the irony at least as well as Revleft posters.

why are you people not getting it, you dont get karl marx on your credit card but a ugly statue of him, one of the few things worth of sightseing in chemnitz(formerly karl-marx stadt).


If you can't tell the difference between Germany under Hitler and Germany under Honecker, then you are simply a McCarthyite anti-communist reactionary.

to quote tim finnegan here: Oh, piss off

[Per Levy]

And how do you expect workers to get to that level of class consciousness? How do you expect eastern Germans to react to east Germany going from having the highest living standards in the Comecon to being a de-industrialization nation filled with poverty and unemployment?

well as an eastern german id say capitalism sucks and it needs to be destroyed, thats how i react, i wont look back to a "glorified past" just to make me feel better.


What are the GDR computer engineers that built super computer for the USSR suppose to think about the GDR now they are considered unskilled labor?

well they probally think that capitalism sucks, and probally just wait for their retirment so that they dont have to bother anymore.

[Tim Finnegan]

And how do you expect workers to get to that level of class consciousness? How do you expect eastern Germans to react to east Germany going from having the highest living standards in the Comecon to being a de-industrialization nation filled with poverty and unemployment? What are the GDR computer engineers that built super computer for the USSR suppose to think about the GDR now they are considered unskilled labor?
Did you not read the bit where I said "class struggle"?

[Positivist]

Why? according to the article even west Germans are interested in having a credit card with the image of Karl Mark on it. Also from the article A 2008 survey found 52% of eastern Germans believed the free market economy was "unsuitable" and 43% said they wanted socialism back.

So regardless of what your opinion on whether or not East Germany was really socialistic is, if the German people prefer it to capitalism, than just think of how they would respond to actual socialism.

[Goblin]

Its like putting a picture of Reagan on Das Kapital

[Ismail]

and the gdr wasnt a "deformed workers state" it was a puppet regime installed by the soviet union."Installed by the Soviet Union"? Really? Is that why the KPD had to compete with the SPD, CDU, and other bourgeois parties in the Soviet zone for influence and only gradually one-upped them? Is that why Stalin had to advise Ulbricht against committing ultra-leftist errors in the early 50's?

Hoxha recalled the following:

"Ulbricht had not shown any sign of open hostility to our Party until we fell out with the Soviets and with him. He was a haughty, stiff-necked German, hot only with small parties like ours, but also with the others. He had this opinion about relations with the Soviets: 'You have occupied us, you have stripped us of industry, but now you must supply us with big credits and food, so that Democratic Germany will build up and reach the level of the German Federal Republic.' He demanded such credits arrogantly and he got them. He forced Khrushchev to say in a joint meeting: 'We must assist Germany so that it becomes our show-case to the West.' And Ulbricht did not hesitate to tell the Soviets in our presence: 'You must speed up your aid because there is bureaucracy.'

'Where is the bureaucracy,' asked Mikoyan 'in your country?'

'No, not at all in our country but in yours,' replied Ulbricht.

However, while he received great aid for himself, he was never ready to help the others, and gave us a ludicrous credit. When we attacked the Khrushchevites in Moscow, both in the meeting and after it, he proved to be one of our most ferocious opponents and was the first to attack our Party publicly after the Moscow Meeting."
(Hoxha, Enver. The Khrushchevites. Tirana: 8 Nëntori Publishing House. 1984. pp. 178-179.)

The Comecon was transformed into an exploitative economic organ under the Soviet revisionists while the Warsaw Pact was likewise an instrument of Soviet social-imperialism, but the GDR did not start off as a "puppet state" and in fact Honecker was quite firm about rejecting Gorbachev's reforms, to the extent that Gorby secretly confided with "reformists" in the SED hierarchy about removing him. Soviet publications and translations extolling Perestroika and Glasnost were restricted in the GDR (as they were in Cuba), initiatives like the Berlin Wall originated in the East German Politbüro and not its Soviet counterpart, etc.

[Psy]

Did you not read the bit where I said "class struggle"?
There is a class struggle going on and that is over how the GDR is projected. German bourgeois historians want to project the history of the GDR as a brutal socialist dictatorship with no redeeming points so they can use it as a straw man for capitalism, yet there is resistance to this by workers of the former GDR that refute this image of the GDR. If you look at ostalgie people are not totally white washing the GDR but mostly they say things along the lines "the GDR had its faults but it was not all bad and had its good points".

[bcbm]

When the revolution comes can we make an exception and ban hipsters? Please!

well ban you first

[Robocommie]

well ban you first

Before it was cool

[A Marxist Historian]

no on both your claims, ostalgie is hardly a form of class concious but more a form of nostalgie that things were better in those days or just an expression to get products that allready existet in the gdr(in that way ostalgie serves capital). most people in east germany knows they get screwed by capitalists but most of these people also dont like socialism very mch becasue of the gdr.

and the gdr wasnt a "deformed workers state" it was a puppet regime installed by the soviet union.

Which was a degenerated workers state, a degeneration product of the only really successful workers revolution in human history. And you know what? Getting rid of the Nazis and installing something better in Germany strikes me as pretty cool, and it struck a lot of Germans as pretty cool too--those who weren't Hitler-lovers that is.

As for your Innsmouth wisdom on what "most people in east germany" are thinking, I notice that our posters from that part of the world on Revleft almost all seem to disagree.


why are you people not getting it, you dont get karl marx on your credit card but a ugly statue of him, one of the few things worth of sightseing in chemnitz(formerly karl-marx stadt).

So which piece of Marx's skeleton would you want on your credit card? A fingerbone? How would you hold it on? With rubber bands?


to quote tim finnegan here: Oh, piss off

Well, then, bollocks to both of you.

-M.H.-

[Psy]

Which was a degenerated workers state, a degeneration product of the only really successful workers revolution in human history. And you know what? Getting rid of the Nazis and installing something better in Germany strikes me as pretty cool, and it struck a lot of Germans as pretty cool too--those who weren't Hitler-lovers that is.

Also the revisionism GDR by German capitalists is blatant to East Germans and Marxists going along with the bourgeoisie's revisionism just because we have criticisms of the GDR is dishonest. Ostalgie can be seen as the working class slowly coming to terms with the cold war and viewing it beyond the Comecon being cartoonishly evil like capitalists portray it.

Capitalists would rather have the Comecon and its Marxist imagery buried and forgotten, to them Marx being a popular image (more recognizable then bourgeois economists like Milton Friedman) infuriates them. Hell in Japan there is a Manga series featuring Marx and his writing in Capital, and now he on a German credit card, pointing to Marx gaining more exposure in culture.

http://www.animeclick.it/prove/upload/img/News19271.jpg

[Dunk]

Revleft will argue about anything

[piet11111]

Revleft will argue about anything

I disagree :laugh:

I see this as an attempt to separate the man (marx) from his idea's of communism in a similar way Guevara has been turned into a symbol of "rebellion" on T-shirts and away from armed insurrection.