Repetitive elections in Greece 2012 [Archive]

Kornilios Sunshine

17th June 2012, 10:07

Greetings to all comrades of RevLeft. This is the 2nd thread for the 17th June repetitive parliamentary elections 2012 in Greece, where I will be posting the Exit Poll which is the the first estimate of the votes. It will be available @ 19:00 Greece time. I will try to post pictures as well. At 21:00-21:30(Greece Time) full results will be available including exact percentages of the parties and MP seats. Stay tuned.
21:00
NOTE : You can always view the official results in detail from the site of Ministry here. (http://ekloges.ypes.gr/v2012b/public/index.html?lang=en#%7B%22cls%22:%22main%22,%22para ms%22:%7B%7D%7D)

OFFICIAL RESULTS(According to ministry of Interior)
http://i.imgur.com/NcZzI.png
http://i.imgur.com/nmitW.png
ND = 29,66% with 129(with 50 bonus) MP seats
SYRIZA = 26,89% with 71 seats
PASOK = 12,28% with 33 seats
Independent Greeks = 7,51% with 20 seats
Golden Dawn = 6,92% with 18 seats
Democratic Left = 6,26% with 17 seats
KKE = 4,50% with 12 seats

19:00

EXIT POLL(Vote Estimate according to ANT1,MEGA,NET Channel)
I am posting ΜEGA,ANT1 and NET Exit Polls.

MEGA

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/579889_236587256444188_864184475_n.jpg
New Democracy first party = 27,5% - 30,5%
SYRIZA = 27% - 30%
PASOK = 10% - 12%
Independent Greeks = 6% - 7,5%
Golden Dawn = 6% - 7,5%
Democratic Left = 5,5% - 6,5%
KKE = 5% - 6%
LAOS = 1,5% - 2%

ANT1
http://c.media.newsbomb.gr/stories/Babis/paralies2/ANT1034590349503455555.jpg
New Democracy first party = 27,5% - 30,5%
SYRIZA = 27% - 30%
PASOK = 10% - 12%
Independent Greeks = 6% - 7,5%
Golden Dawn = 6% - 7,5%
Democratic Left = 5,5% - 6,5%
KKE = 5% - 6%
LAOS = 1,5% - 2%

NET
http://c.media.newsbomb.gr/stories/Babis/paralies2/20120617185928.jpg
New Democracy first party = 27,5% - 30,5%
SYRIZA = 27% - 30%
PASOK = 10% - 12%
Independent Greeks = 6% - 7,5%
Golden Dawn = 6% - 7,5%
Democratic Left = 5,5% - 6,5%
KKE = 5% - 6%

SKAI
Now here's the strange thing, the exit poll of SKAI wants SYRIZA first party!
http://c.media.newsbomb.gr/stories/Babis/paralies2/20120617190030.jpg
SYRIZA first party = 28%
ND = 27,5%
PASOK = 13%
Independent Greeks = 7,5%
Democratic Left = 7,5%
KKE = 5,5%
Golden Dawn 5,5%

BOZG

17th June 2012, 10:19

Kornilios Sunshine

17th June 2012, 10:27

Are you sure that the full results will be in tonight? My understanding from comrades in Greece is that the full results will not be in until tomorrow morning but that exit polls will be available from 21.00 or so.
EXACT EXACT EXACT detailed results will be available tomorrow morning. No, the first estimate is on 19:00 all the TV channels have announced that this is true. But the 21:00 result will be quite the same with the one tomorrow morning. The thing is that tomorrow morning we will have the exact number MP seats of the parties.

Kornilios Sunshine

17th June 2012, 17:03

EXIT POLL(Vote Estimate according to ANT1,MEGA,NET Channel)
I am posting ΜEGA,ANT1 and NET Exit Polls.

MEGA

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/579889_236587256444188_864184475_n.jpg
New Democracy first party = 27,5% - 30,5%
SYRIZA = 27% - 30%
PASOK = 10% - 12%
Independent Greeks = 6% - 7,5%
Golden Dawn = 6% - 7,5%
Democratic Left = 5,5% - 6,5%
KKE = 5% - 6%
LAOS = 1,5% - 2%

ANT1
http://c.media.newsbomb.gr/stories/Babis/paralies2/ANT1034590349503455555.jpg
New Democracy first party = 27,5% - 30,5%
SYRIZA = 27% - 30%
PASOK = 10% - 12%
Independent Greeks = 6% - 7,5%
Golden Dawn = 6% - 7,5%
Democratic Left = 5,5% - 6,5%
KKE = 5% - 6%
LAOS = 1,5% - 2%

NET
http://c.media.newsbomb.gr/stories/Babis/paralies2/20120617185928.jpg
New Democracy first party = 27,5% - 30,5%
SYRIZA = 27% - 30%
PASOK = 10% - 12%
Independent Greeks = 6% - 7,5%
Golden Dawn = 6% - 7,5%
Democratic Left = 5,5% - 6,5%
KKE = 5% - 6%

SKAI
Now here's the strange thing, the exit poll of SKAI wants SYRIZA first party!
http://c.media.newsbomb.gr/stories/Babis/paralies2/20120617190030.jpg
SYRIZA first party = 28%
ND = 27,5%
PASOK = 13%
Independent Greeks = 7,5%
Democratic Left = 7,5%
KKE = 5,5%
Golden Dawn 5,5%

Crux

17th June 2012, 17:20

Wouldn't it be ironic if ND's margin of victory, say 0.5%, and the election result of ANTARSYA were the same? With a margin like that though...well too close to call feels like an understatement.

piet11111

17th June 2012, 17:43

I wouldn't vote for the KKE but that they get less votes then the nazi's is deeply troubling.

Lenina Rosenweg

17th June 2012, 17:53

I wouldn't vote for the KKE but that they get less votes then the nazi's is deeply troubling.

This may say something about the effectiveness of the KKE's approach.Facism always emerges on the defeat of the left.

LuÃs Henrique

17th June 2012, 18:31

Here, first actual results (http://ekloges.ypes.gr/v2012b/public/index.html?lang=en#{"cls":"main","params":{}}). ND and SYRIZA sharply up from May 6th, DIMAR slightly up, other parties down in varied degrees.

Luís Henrique

Art Vandelay

17th June 2012, 18:34

What can everyone tell me about ND other than capitalists world wide are crossing their fingers hoping they win? Also how accurate are these results? Technically Syrzia can still win, correct? Lets hope the SKAI polls are correct.

NewLeft

17th June 2012, 18:42

Young people are not largely represented in the exit poll.. Will they go SYRIZA?

LuÃs Henrique

17th June 2012, 18:44

Kornilios Sunshine

17th June 2012, 18:45

MP Seats according to Exit Poll of ANT1 at 100%(Picture temporarily unavailable)

ND = 127 Seats (70 + 50 bonus seats)
SYRIZA = 76 Seats
PASOK = 30 Seats
Independent Greeks = 21 Seats
Golden Dawn = 19 Seats
Democratic Left = 16 Seats
KKE = 13 Seats

Kornilios Sunshine

17th June 2012, 18:47

ND 31,11%
SYRIZA 25,31%
PASOK 13,62
ANEL 7,25%
Golden Dawn 6,82%
DIMAR 5,92%
KKE 4,35%
LAOS 1,54%
DX/DRASI 1,40%
Greens 0,82%

Counting seems slower in urban centers, perhaps numbers will change in favour of the left (as they did during May 6 count).

Luís Henrique
These are NOT official results though, they are from the final Exit Poll.

EDIT : Sorry my mistake, these are the actual estimate results, thanks for posting them.

The Douche

17th June 2012, 18:51

MP Seats according to Exit Poll of ANT1 at 100%(Picture temporarily unavailable)

ND = 127 Seats
SYRIZA = 76 Seats
PASOK = 30 Seats
Independent Greeks = 21 Seats
Golden Dawn = 19 Seats
Democratic Left = 16 Seats
KKE = 13 Seats

Would that include the 50 bonus seats for ND?

Kornilios Sunshine

17th June 2012, 18:57

OFFICIAL RESULTS(According to ministry of Interior)
http://i.imgur.com/QkVeU.png
ND = 30,91 %
SYRIZA = 25,53 %
PASOK = 13,29 %
Independent Greeks = 7,36 %
Golden Dawn = 6,87 %
Democratic Left = 5,93 %
KKE = 4,37 %
LAOS = 1,56 %
Creation! Again = 1,45 %
Ecologists = 0,83 %
"I don't pay" movement = 0,38 %
ANTARSYA = 0,32 %
Society of Kapodistrias = 0,27 %
Centralsits Union = 0,27 %

Kornilios Sunshine

17th June 2012, 19:00

Would that include the 50 bonus seats for ND?
Yeah forgot to mention it.

The Douche

17th June 2012, 19:03

Yeah forgot to mention it.

So if the current numbers hold up, and syriza holds true to their statements and past actions, a functioning government will be impossible?

NewLeft

17th June 2012, 19:04

"Democracy/Pasok coalition would have a majority of 159 seats."

Sasha

17th June 2012, 19:05

How much you want to bet a bunch of SYRIZA votes got disapeared?

Sasha

17th June 2012, 19:12

I wouldn't vote for the KKE but that they get less votes then the nazi's is deeply troubling.

Not really suprising when the nazis are less sectarian and more open to the majority of the workingclass.. like I said before, in a country where 60% work in the service sector and 10% is unemployed a solely factoryworkers orientated Marxist-leninist party can only loose... even from the nazis...

NewLeft

17th June 2012, 19:22

http://ekloges.ypes.gr/v2012b/dyn/map.png
ND - 30,60 %
SYRIZA - 25,84 %
PASOK - 13,02 %
ANEL - 7,41 %
XA - 6,92 %
DIMAR - 5,99 %
KKE - 4,43 %
LAOS - 1,56 %
DX - 1,49 %
OP - 0,84 %
Movement - 0,39 %
ANTARSYA - 0,32 %
http://ekloges.ypes.gr/v2012b/public/index.html

31,09 % Reporting

Delenda Carthago

17th June 2012, 19:23

The most troubling is that although ND managed to attract many right wingers, GD stays at the same levels. Meaning, if ND collapses in the near future, they will manage to get easily a 15%.

Now, the scenarios are:

A. SYRIZA is the first party, and collaborates with DemLeft. That means and perhaps Indipentend Greeks on a "we slowly renegotiate the mnemonioum" goverment, which will fall easily in the near future due to its pretty unhomogenic nature. KKE starts a strike and struggle campaign with target to at least cancel the mnemonioum on the near future, something that SYRIZA would not be able to manage so it would fall. At the same time, GD being able to apply critic to the big bad Left, would get stronger.

B. ND is the first party and collaborates with PASOK on a mnemonioum basis. That means, a campaign of guerrilla warfare begins both from SYRIZA and of course KKE which would do it anyway against anyone.
THat would have the pro of both of them getting stronger within the people and would bring down the goverment really soon. By September, SYRIZA can be goverment. But at the same time, a demolished ND would make GD more strong, something that would lead to civil war situations, with a strong social democracy and the CP coming second.

Both cases, the electorial weakening of KKE is the worst thing it could ever happen to the greek people. The good thing is that it doesnt mean much, since its known that people are trusting more KKE for its honesty than SYRIZA and the only reason it fell was the chance of a "Goverment of the Left" SYRIZA brought so close to them. Matter of fact, this is what KKE managed to gather 2 days ago.

qTyjXCqNQTg

That means, the smallest party managed to gather the biggest crowd of them all. Because KKE makes militants, not voters. That is the power of KKE and that is something that in the near future will make the difference.

Worst comes to worst, I would appreciate someone leting me crash on their couch in case of mass slaughter by nazis in Greece.

Art Vandelay

17th June 2012, 19:24

Not really suprising when the nazis are less sectarian and more open to the majority of the workingclass.. like I said before, in a country where 60% work in the service sector and 10% is unemployed a solely factoryworkers orientated Marxist-leninist party can only loose... even from the nazis...

I honestly don`t even see how your line of thinking (as to why the kke and pame are useless) can even be argued.

Art Vandelay

17th June 2012, 19:26

Worst comes to worst, I would appreciate someone leting me crash on their couch in case of mass slaughter by nazis in Greece.

Regardless of our politics, you got a couch in canada. But did you mean literal guerilla warfare in your post.

The Douche

17th June 2012, 19:29

Regardless of our politics, you got a couch in canada. But did you mean literal guerilla warfare in your post.

Yeah, you can of course stay with me as well, I am also wondering if you meant literal warfare, I don't see SYRIZA's base being down for that.

Krano

17th June 2012, 19:40

KKE makes militants, not voters.
Yeah like last summer when militant leftists actually tried to take over parliament and the KKE was there to protect the bourgeoisie.

Delenda Carthago

17th June 2012, 19:43

Yeah, you can of course stay with me as well, I am also wondering if you meant literal warfare, I don't see SYRIZA's base being down for that.
I mean civil war. Of course SYRIZA is not built for it,thats why its superfucked the fact that its him that its rising. So its up to KKE and to the tiny forces of ANTARSYA and anarchists to carry the weight.

The Douche

17th June 2012, 19:44

Yeah like last summer when militant leftists actually tried to take over parliament the KKE was there to protect the bourgeoisie.

Leave that out of this thread. Anybody who attempts to derail this thread is gonna get an infraction. This is for discussing the election.

LuÃs Henrique

17th June 2012, 19:50

ND winning in Samos, KKE in third.

Luís Henrique

NewLeft

17th June 2012, 19:56

http://ekloges.ypes.gr/v2012b/dyn/seats.png

ND - 131 - 30,45 %
SYRIZA - 69 - 26,04 %
PASOK - 34 - 12,85 %
ANEL - 20 - 7,43 %
XA - 18 - 6,96 %
DIMAR - 16 - 6,04 %
KKE - 12 - 4,39 %

Delenda Carthago

17th June 2012, 20:03

I mean civil war. Of course SYRIZA is not built for it,thats why its superfucked the fact that its him that its rising. So its up to KKE and to the tiny forces of ANTARSYA and anarchists to carry the weight.
Ι have to clarify: When I say civl war, that dont mean nessesery armed fights in the streets all day. It might mean a strategy of tension, psysical fights every day(no wonder the nazis have focused their violence on KKE for the last 2 weeks), strikes that might continue after them being called illegal, bombs, shootings, stabings, etc. All those beautiful things that spice up our lives.

Art Vandelay

17th June 2012, 20:15

Ι have to clarify: When I say civl war, that dont mean nessesery armed fights in the streets all day. It might mean a strategy of tension, psysical fights every day(no wonder the nazis have focused their violence on KKE for the last 2 weeks), strikes that might continue after them being called illegal, bombs, shootings, stabings, etc. All those beautiful things that spice up our lives.

I think your application of the term `civil war`still seems appropriate, regardless of the descriptions you`ve applied. Civil war, in the opening stages, may not look like civil war; however if the left wishes to be ready, then we need to label it as such.

The Douche

17th June 2012, 20:33

breaking

A ballot box in exarcheia was set on fire. May delay results.

LuÃs Henrique

17th June 2012, 20:34

Half of the vote is in; it seem quite improbable that the result will change. Still, the counting is slower in Athens, Piraeus, and Thessalonika and faster in the ND strongholds.

Luís Henrique

Art Vandelay

17th June 2012, 20:45

Half of the vote is in; it seem quite improbable that the result will change. Still, the counting is slower in Athens, Piraeus, and Thessalonika and faster in the ND strongholds.

Luís Henrique

If the counting in ND strongholds is faster, why is it improbable the results will change?

A Marxist Historian

17th June 2012, 20:46

I mean civil war. Of course SYRIZA is not built for it,thats why its superfucked the fact that its him that its rising. So its up to KKE and to the tiny forces of ANTARSYA and anarchists to carry the weight.

If nothing else, that makes clear just what an incredible tactical blunder allying with the cops vs. the anarchists last fall was. In principle even more so, but being principled has never been a KKE strongpoint.

Me, I think one of the reasons for the KKE's jump to the left and very left election campaign (which I would have voted for were I Greek) was all the blowback they got from what they did last fall, which I suspect some of their working class base was not too happy about.

-M.H.-

Krano

17th June 2012, 20:47

Leave that out of this thread. Anybody who attempts to derail this thread is gonna get an infraction. This is for discussing the election.
Not trying to just pointing out hypocrisy.

Crux

17th June 2012, 20:56

I'm not sure a weak PASOK/ND koalition is necessarily such a bad thing for the left. Also we have to remember that before May SYRIZA wasn't even near double digits now they have over a quarter of the total votes. So anyone down for bringing down a government?

ВАЛТЕР

17th June 2012, 21:02

I think it is very important to get a rough estimate of how much of the population didn't vote. When can we get that estimate? Maybe by the end of the week?

Lenina Rosenweg

17th June 2012, 21:05

I think it is very important to get a rough estimate of how much of the population didn't vote. When can we get that estimate? Maybe by the end of the week?

This has voting statistics. It looks like vabout 40% of the eligable population did not vote.

Stalin Ate My Homework

17th June 2012, 21:07

breaking

A ballot box in exarcheia was set on fire. May delay results.

May delay results? Presumably it would destroy the results wouldn't it?! :lol:

REDSOX

17th June 2012, 21:10

Latest report from greece 21.04 GMT suggests with 60% of the vote in The Conservative New democracy has (thanks to the 50 seat rule for the winner of the elections) 30.11% 130 seats, Syriza has 70 seats 26.50%
Pasok has 12.55% 33 seats. This may change a little more over the next few hours.

Great result for syriza up from 4.5% in 2010 to anywhere between 26-27.5% in this election. They have also just said they will not join a so called national salvation government has proposed by Pasok. Good on them.

Also disturbing to see Neo Nazi Golden Dawn get over 7% again and sad to see the KKE get less than 5% but maybe that's because of its sectarian position vis a vis Syriza

LuÃs Henrique

17th June 2012, 21:16

I think it is very important to get a rough estimate of how much of the population didn't vote. When can we get that estimate? Maybe by the end of the week?

The official data point to an abstention of around 39%, ie, basically the same thing as in May 6th.

Luís Henrique

Tamerlane

17th June 2012, 21:17

It looks like New Democracy will be the ruling party, in coalition with PASOK. What now for Greece?

LuÃs Henrique

17th June 2012, 21:29

If the counting in ND strongholds is faster, why is it improbable the results will change?

Because SYRIZA would have to beat ND in the remaining precincts by a higher margin ND achieved in those already counted, and that seems not to be happening.

With 69% of the vote counted, ND and SYRIZA both have now more votes than they had in May. It is unlikely that any other party will achieve the same.

Luís Henrique

NewLeft

17th June 2012, 21:38

Because SYRIZA would have to beat ND in the remaining precincts by a higher margin ND achieved in those already counted, and that seems not to be happening.

With 69% of the vote counted, ND and SYRIZA both have now more votes than they had in May. It is unlikely that any other party will achieve the same.

Luís Henrique
Yeah, SYRIZA would need to be polling around 70% to catch up.

Thirsty Crow

17th June 2012, 21:48

The official data point to an abstention of around 39%, ie, basically the same thing as in May 6th.

Luís Henrique
I don't know if my reasoning is way off mark, but this seems almost surreal. I mean, I would speculate that a population facing a crisis situation such as Greek society does would at least polarize around two mutually opposed political positions, but with a significantly lower rate of abstention. That's more than a third of the electorate.

So, what does this actually imply? Apathy or resignation? Deliberate abstention due to a counsciousness of the futility of the electoral game?

Connected to this, are there any sociodemographic studies of the patterns of voting in recent Greek elections?

Crux

17th June 2012, 21:55

Omsk

17th June 2012, 22:16

I will be going to Greece this Summer to write about the failure of the KKE. To bad i have more than enough material.

RaÃºl Duke

17th June 2012, 22:20

Supposedly SYRIZA conceded and PASOK/ND will make a coalition, according to NYT

Sasha

17th June 2012, 22:22

This is just the begining. A pro-memorandum government with little legitimacy opens up for very interesting times ahead. Paul Mason predicted such a government might collapse within 6 months. Prepare for a hot autumn.

will be intresting whether GD will keep to try to profilate itself as the third way or lets itself be paid off and fall in line with its capitalist masters and open full assault on the left..

The Douche

17th June 2012, 22:26

Supposedly SYRIZA conceded and PASOK/ND will make a coalition, according to NYT
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20120617-701082.html

Wall street journal reporting also.

Sasha

17th June 2012, 22:29

But if SYRIZA and most other anti memorandum partys won and pasok lost and abstention remained the same where did all the ND votes come from? Only the moderate anti memorandum right?

The Douche

17th June 2012, 22:31

What are the odds of PAME calling an indefinite general strike in response to the election? (pipe dream, I know, but what else can we support as a response?)

Delenda Carthago

17th June 2012, 22:40

What are the odds of PAME calling an indefinite general strike in response to the election? (pipe dream, I know, but what else can we support as a response?)
PAME is not that strong to support such a deciscion, unfortunatly. Would be pretty fuckin sweet though.

Delenda Carthago

17th June 2012, 22:41

I will be going to Greece this Summer to write about the failure of the KKE. To bad i have more than enough material.
I m pretty sure many people are dying to hear what you have to say on the issue Commadante.

Omsk

17th June 2012, 22:43

Thank you for your enthusiasm good comrade, there are people here interested about the situation in Greece, and they are very disappointed.

Corbeau

17th June 2012, 22:48

The Douche

17th June 2012, 22:49

PAME is not that strong to support such a deciscion, unfortunatly. Would be pretty fuckin sweet though.

I mean, KKE can pull 5% in an election, so with supporters PAME could mobilize at least 5% of the population, right, surely with 40% of the population not even voting, it would not be absurd for a general strike to get 10% of the population mobilized?

17th June 2012, 22:55

Can anyone explain why none of the anti-memorandum parties formed a coalition with SYRIZA?

When you have such an idiotic and manipulative electorial law (50 seats for... what exactly?) then the smart thing to do is to manipulate it back.

So why did nobody get the hint and added those few percent to get additional 16.7% percent of seats?
The 50 seat bonus was designed to keep the ruling parties in their place. And even if SYRIZA would win, there was a lot of speculation that it wouldn't get the 50 seat top-up as SYRIZA is not a party but a coalition. Hardly surprising that such legalistic trickery is used.

I mean, KKE can pull 5% in an election, so with supporters PAME could mobilize at least 5% of the population, right, surely with 40% of the population not even voting, it would not be absurd for a general strike to get 10% of the population mobilized?
How is 10% of the population anywhere near a general strike?

Anyway, a general strike in itself is not an answer (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=6618) out of capitalism. It may be a valid tactic though.

Delenda Carthago

17th June 2012, 22:55

Thank you for your enthusiasm good comrade, there are people here interested about the situation in Greece, and they are very disappointed.
Tell them we are sorry we couldnt do better, we did our best and to forgive us that we couldnt stand up to their legacy.

Omsk

17th June 2012, 22:58

Tell them we are sorry we couldnt do better, we did our best and to forgive us that we couldnt stand up to their legacy.

Well, the legacy of some people is an actual revolution, but let's forget about that.

I'm sad to see the bad results, but on the other hand, i am sure you will have more votes in the coming period, when the people see that the right-wing cant do anything.

Delenda Carthago

17th June 2012, 22:59

I mean, KKE can pull 5% in an election, so with supporters PAME could mobilize at least 5% of the population, right, surely with 40% of the population not even voting, it would not be absurd for a general strike to get 10% of the population mobilized?
First of all, PAME and KKE are not the same. PAME is a syndicate's front that organises many people outside of KKE too. You can work at a bussiness where the union is at PAME and you can be PASOK member, dont matter. If your union strikes, you strike.

Other than that, PAME is much much more strong than KKE. PAME in GSEE has like 20% or more. But thats still not enough. In order to call for an indefinate general strike, you have to control a huge part of the working force of your country. I wish PAME was that good. But its not. Still.

Corbeau

18th June 2012, 00:22

The 50 seat bonus was designed to keep the ruling parties in their place. And even if SYRIZA would win, there was a lot of speculation that it wouldn't get the 50 seat top-up as SYRIZA is not a party but a coalition. Hardly surprising that such legalistic trickery is used.
Well, now we'll never know, will we?

If any of them formed a coalition that gave those few percent needed, two things might have happened:
1. They'd get the majority
2. They'd be tricked out of the majority like you described, with a God-given excuse to turn the country upside down giving a completely legitimate cause for a revolution

So it was the most obvious thing to do. However, since I don't presume that I'm smarter than dozens or even hundreds of political activists in the field and don't believe that none ov them got that idea, I'm assuming there was a good reason for not doing it. So I'm curious what was that reason, not really being an expert on the situation.

LuÃs Henrique

18th June 2012, 01:15

I don't know if my reasoning is way off mark, but this seems almost surreal. I mean, I would speculate that a population facing a crisis situation such as Greek society does would at least polarize around two mutually opposed political positions, but with a significantly lower rate of abstention. That's more than a third of the electorate.

So, what does this actually imply? Apathy or resignation? Deliberate abstention due to a counsciousness of the futility of the electoral game?

Connected to this, are there any sociodemographic studies of the patterns of voting in recent Greek elections?

There is always a significant part of any electorate that doesn't vote. Since they don't vote, it is difficult to guess what they do intend, if anything, with their no-vote.

There is one factor that is easy to correlate with abstention, and this is weather. Rain, snow, strong winds, too much heath or too much cold make people unwilling to leave their homes, and consequently to vote. The similar rate of abstention in Greece in both May and June tells me, for instance, that the weather was similar in both occasions. Our Greek comrades can perhaps confirm or refute that, or otherwise ponder on the Greek weather and its political effects today and six weeks ago.

A second factor that correlates, but in a more complicated way, is the communication and transportation nets of the region where people vote. The less radio and press, the less roads (or boats) a region has, the more people abstain. In a country like Greece, hilly and full of islands, this can be an important factor. But the communication and transportation nets usually correlate also with the economic development of the region; a place with little communication and transport is likely to be populated by peasants, not by blue or white collar workers, and the other way round. So it can be hard to determine if people abstain less in a certain region because they have more transportation, or because they are politically more motivated due to their productive relations.

Then each country has its peculiarities due to different legislation. In Brazil, for instance, vote is mandatory, but not for those over 70 or for the illiterate. So abstention tends to be higher in places were illiteracy is higher - and also where the population is older.

I have frankly never seen any real case of abstention due to a high level of consciousness, except in the rare case an actual no-vote campaign is organised. And even then, a huge part of the abstention is probably due more to the fear of outbreaks of violence during the ballot than actual "consciousness" (as in the case, for instance, of Sendero Luminoso's no vote campaigns). Even spoiled votes rarely express anything more than amorphous frustration - again exception made of organised spoilage campaigns. The conscious abstention is a myth a part of the left likes to cultuate - usually because it compensates for our actual political weakness in the real world - but it is really nothing more than a comfortable myth.

This site (http://welections.wordpress.com/) performs detailed analysis of many elections; considering the importance of the Greek vote of today, I expect a quite in-depth "psephological" analysis in the next days there - as it was the case of the May elections, that were covered in a long post of May 9th. If you can stand the fact that the author there is certainly nothing like a revolutionary leftist, and enjoy the analysis albeit that, it may be worth a look.

Or we could take the available data and discuss them in depth in another thread in revleft.

Luís Henrique

Welshy

18th June 2012, 01:17

LuÃs Henrique

18th June 2012, 02:31

But if SYRIZA and most other anti memorandum partys won and pasok lost and abstention remained the same where did all the ND votes come from? Only the moderate anti memorandum right?

ND was up from May 6th by 10.81 pp. I suppose they took a few votes from PASOK; PASOK lost 0.9 pp. They may have profited from losses from LAOS (1.32 pp.), DX/DRASI (2.36 pp.), Union of Centrists (0.33 pp.), National Union-National Hope (0.53 pp.), KOINONIA (0.16 pp.), and Liberal Party (0.05 pp.), and they should have the vote of DISY, that merged with them for this campaign (2.55 pp.). So this sums 9.2 pp., and they must have drawn votes also from either ANEL or from the left. Moreso if all those losing parties lost votes for abstention, which is a quite real possibility (but then that's another possibility; ND may have gained votes from people who abstained in May).

SYRIZA on the other hand was up from May 6th by 10.11 pp. They may have drawn votes from KKE (3.98 pp.), the Greens (2.05 pp.), ANTARSYA (0.86 pp.), Social Agreement (0.96 pp.), OCHI (0.92 pp.), Won't Pay (0.49 pp.), Pirates (0.28 pp.), KKE-ML (0.13 pp.), EEK (0.10 pp.), OAKKE (0.04 pp.), and OKDE (0.03 pp.) This sums 10 pp., so SYRIZA must also have drawn votes from ANEL, or from abstention, especially since some of the voters of the parties listed above probably stayed home today since their preferred party wasn't in the ballot list anymore.

The results seem coherent with each other; in fact, little real change of minds seems to have happened. Only the voted were rearranged, with the larger parties of each the pro- and anti-bailout camps growing at the expense of the smaller ones. The probable exception was ANEL, whose former voters may have had an insight that being right-wing is more important to them than being anti-bailout. The scare campaign of ND against SYRIZA may have hit ANEL more strongly than SYRIZA itself, I would say.

It would be useful to know what the small parties that withdrew from the second election told their supporters to do. Perhaps our Greek comrades can enlighten us on the point?

Luís Henrique

Sasha

18th June 2012, 02:53

Must be anel then if last time they didnt have a majority and now a reasonably comfortable one..

Geiseric

18th June 2012, 03:17

Maybe this will pressure KKE into a united front since they're opportunists and are losing votes.

Geiseric

18th June 2012, 03:23

What's good to see though is that SYRIZA is growing and gaining more and more votes, which will come in handy.

Os Cangaceiros

18th June 2012, 03:35

This is just the begining. A pro-memorandum government with little legitimacy opens up for very interesting times ahead. Paul Mason predicted such a government might collapse within 6 months. Prepare for a hot autumn.

Oh god. Could the government in Greece possibly even be more illegitimate than the last Greek government, which was practically installed by the troika/EU? I doubt it. Looks like austerity will continue.

Os Cangaceiros

18th June 2012, 04:30

Although Greece has commonly been bandied about as a country in which things will imminently "pop off", and indeed it seems like that has happened on more than one occassion (December 2008, mid-February 2012), I don't think any of what the left hopes will happen there will actually happen. Electoral politics still have hegemony over Greece, and none of the mainstream parties have anything to offer. In fact the head of SYRIZA recently finished up a tour of Europe, in which he promised the EU that he'd be a good little boy and wouldn't rock the boat too much. I have no illusions about the KKE, but one almost (even from an anarchist perspective) kind of wants them to win, just because of the perverse curiousity of what the effect on the financial markets would be. Looks like the predictions of political ascension by pro-KKE people on here turned out to be just a lot of hot air, though.

Greece was suffering economically well before many of the other troubled EU countries, under the dual pressure of endemic corruption and the 2008 financial crash crisis-of-capital, and what dominates is still electoral politics (even with absention) and carefully orchestrated political rallies, w/ a select number of indignados who yell at parliament & members of the local anarchist ghettos who play a meaningless tug-of-war with the Greek po-po for a day or two during general strikes. Is that going to change? I haven't seen any recent event that suggests it will.

Delenda Carthago

18th June 2012, 05:15

Maybe this will pressure KKE into a united front since they're opportunists
Really? How?

Geiseric

18th June 2012, 05:51

Kornilios Sunshine

18th June 2012, 08:51

That's it for the 2nd elections in Greece, fucking idiot Greeks did not use their brain to vote, voted New Democracy again and enhanced Golden Dawn even more, KKE reduced dramatically its percentages because most of its voters turned for SYRIZA and Democratic Left a spiting image of PASOK, overtaked KKE by saying lies like the ones of SYRIZA. We will probably have a 3-Party Coalition goverment including ND, PASOK and Democratic Left. Otherwise, if goverment is not formed, we will go on elections again but it is highly unlike this will happen. Harder days for Greece are coming. Thanks to every comrade here who trusted me for the results :)

Rusty Shackleford

18th June 2012, 08:52

im not too surprised that the bailout/austerity parties (or at least one of them) got the biggest chunk of the vote this time around.

after the last round i can only imagine the amount of fear greeks were living in because of the possibility of total collapse.

the results for the KKE probably dont mean the demise of the party.

im guessing this is either a lull before a possible storm as majakovskij was saying (about autumn) or it could just be the long disillusioned and cynical road down recession and weak growth lane and the political exhaustion of the working class.

EDIT: i will admit though that over 15 hours ago when i read the numbers that were coming in, i was thinking that again a government was impossible. which was very surprising. probably should've waited to see the actual numbers

Delenda Carthago

18th June 2012, 11:20

ВАЛТЕР

18th June 2012, 11:25

Crux

18th June 2012, 11:28

Can you give me a link to the Paul Mason prediction please?
Here you go. (http://www.anonym.to/?http://paulmasonnews.tumblr.com/post/25284107429/sunday-morning-greece-votes-thoughts)

Kornilios Sunshine

18th June 2012, 11:30

Maybe this will pressure KKE into a united front since they're opportunists
I think you are confusing SYRIZA with KKE, don't you?

Crux

18th June 2012, 11:34

Oh god. Could the government in Greece possibly even be more illegitimate than the last Greek government, which was practically installed by the troika/EU? I doubt it. Looks like austerity will continue.
Yes, but thing's have shifted since then. The government is weak, since May "renogiation" is the chorus of the day from the ruling class. Grexit is still quite possible. Soon enough power will be in the streets.

LuÃs Henrique

18th June 2012, 12:25

Yes, but thing's have shifted since then. The government is weak, since May "renogiation" is the chorus of the day from the ruling class. Grexit is still quite possible. Soon enough power will be in the streets.

Or so we hope. But this electoral result was as good as the Greek bourgeoisie could realistically expect for. They have a truce, and a mandate to try and implement their policies.

Now the EU probably starts punishing the Greek for not being daring enough, and things will start to erode. We will see, but now other countries, such as for instance Spain, are probably worth a closer look.

Luís Henrique

Crux

18th June 2012, 12:28

Or so we hope. But this electoral result was as good as the Greek bourgeoisie could realistically expect for. They have a truce, and a mandate to try and implement their policies.

Now the EU probably starts punishing the Greek for not being daring enough, and things will start to erode. We will see, but now other countries, such as for instance Spain, are probably worth a closer look.

Luís Henrique
Absolutly, an establishment victory is a disaster, but speaking only in electoral results the vote for SYRIZA is historic.
Considering that SYRIZA went from 4.60% in 2009 to 26,89%, I think the Nea Demokratia supporters who are celebrating now should perhaps be a bit more worried. As for the result of PASOK it speaks for itself, give it more time and they might even have a trouble getting into parliament. Oh and for the record ND decreased their vote too in comparison with the last election. In fact excluding the May result this is the lowest turnout for ND both percentually and in votes since the fall of the colonels regime. A Pyrrhic victory.

KurtFF8

18th June 2012, 15:51

Absolutly, an establishment victory is a disaster, but speaking only in electoral results the vote for SYRIZA is historic.
Considering that SYRIZA went from 4.60% in 2009 to 26,89%, I think the Nea Demokratia supporters who are celebrating now should perhaps be a bit more worried. As for the result of PASOK it speaks for itself, give it more time and they might even have a trouble getting into parliament. Oh and for the record ND decreased their vote too in comparison with the last election. In fact excluding the May result this is the lowest turnout for ND both percentually and in votes since the fall of the colonels regime. A Pyrrhic victory.

Indeed, even sources like Yahoo! Finance have pointed this out (http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/greek-election-preserves-europe-status-quo-slow-motion-134050843.html;_ylt=Ap8XdQk3fJZG_8.DMINe5SSs0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTNtZW41aDVzBG1pdANKdW1ib3Ryb24gRlAEcGtnAz IzNTA4OWFmLTMyNzctMzgwYi1iZWJmLTk3MDY4OTVjNWI2ZQRw b3MDMwRzZWMDanVtYm90cm9uBHZlcgM4NTdiOTdkMS1iOTRmLT ExZTEtOWEzZi02ZmNhNzQyNWVkZjk-;_ylg=X3oDMTIyajE4cWUwBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnMEdGVzdANONFVfSW 50ZXJlc3RzMQ--;_ylv=3) as a "concerning" thing of course.

It's also possible that ND won't be able to form a government, it seems that a lot will depend on whether PASOK forms with ND or not.

The Douche

18th June 2012, 15:55

Indeed, even sources like Yahoo! Finance have pointed this out (http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily-ticker/greek-election-preserves-europe-status-quo-slow-motion-134050843.html;_ylt=Ap8XdQk3fJZG_8.DMINe5SSs0NUE;_ ylu=X3oDMTNtZW41aDVzBG1pdANKdW1ib3Ryb24gRlAEcGtnAz IzNTA4OWFmLTMyNzctMzgwYi1iZWJmLTk3MDY4OTVjNWI2ZQRw b3MDMwRzZWMDanVtYm90cm9uBHZlcgM4NTdiOTdkMS1iOTRmLT ExZTEtOWEzZi02ZmNhNzQyNWVkZjk-;_ylg=X3oDMTIyajE4cWUwBGludGwDdXMEbGFuZwNlbi11cwRw c3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdAMEcHQDc2VjdGlvbnMEdGVzdANONFVfSW 50ZXJlc3RzMQ--;_ylv=3) as a "concerning" thing of course.

It's also possible that ND won't be able to form a government, it seems that a lot will depend on whether PASOK forms with ND or not.

Is there any doubt?

Crux

18th June 2012, 16:45

Is there any doubt?
Last I heard PASOK has said they won't join unless SYRIZA joins too. Which seems unlikely, but I suppose PASOK knows that if they and ND go at it alone PASOK might well be history come the next election. But they'll join up with ND eventually. Any word on whetever DIMAR are still bent on political suicide, i e ready to join a PASOK/ND government?

Rusty Shackleford

18th June 2012, 17:08

How much face can PASOK even save? wasnt it 2 years ago even that their politicians were getting buckets of human waste smeared on their cars?

The Douche

18th June 2012, 17:55

Last I heard PASOK has said they won't join unless SYRIZA joins too. Which seems unlikely, but I suppose PASOK knows that if they and ND go at it alone PASOK might well be history come the next election. But they'll join up with ND eventually. Any word on whetever DIMAR are still bent on political suicide, i e ready to join a PASOK/ND government?

I hadn't heard that, but I find it really, really unlikely that PASOK won't join a government.

Crux

18th June 2012, 18:58

I hadn't heard that, but I find it really, really unlikely that PASOK won't join a government.
I suppose they could force a third round of elections and blame it on SYRIZA for not joining a "national unity" government. But
I can't see what they could possibly gain from that. Oh and KKE lost over half their seats by the way. I guess running in the election as an anti-SYRIZA alternative did not pay off. Maybe they will learn something from this? Ah, who am I kidding. Still as I've said before a future split is not so unlikely. Well at least it's more likely than the leadership changing their ultra-secterian line towards...well everyone else on the left basically. That SYRIZA has eaten into the KKE's base of support is no small feat by the way, given that base's fairly high average age and loyality.

The Douche

18th June 2012, 19:02

I suppose they could force a third round of elections and blame it on SYRIZA for not joining a "national unity" government. But
I can't see what they could possibly gain from that. Oh and KKE lost over half their seats by the way. I guess running in the election as an anti-SYRIZA alternative did not pay off. Maybe they will learn something from this? Ah, who am I kidding. Still as I've said before a future split is not so unlikely. Well at least it's more likely than the leadership changing their ultra-secterian line towards...well everyone else on the left basically. That SYRIZA has eaten into the KKE's base of support is no small feat by the way, given that base's fairly high average age and loyality.

Wouldn't a 3rd round of elections mean default? No government to negotiate with the Troika or push through austerity, right?

FSL

18th June 2012, 19:43

I suppose they could force a third round of elections and blame it on SYRIZA for not joining a "national unity" government. But
I can't see what they could possibly gain from that. Oh and KKE lost over half their seats by the way. I guess running in the election as an anti-SYRIZA alternative did not pay off. Maybe they will learn something from this? Ah, who am I kidding. Still as I've said before a future split is not so unlikely. Well at least it's more likely than the leadership changing their ultra-secterian line towards...well everyone else on the left basically. That SYRIZA has eaten into the KKE's base of support is no small feat by the way, given that base's fairly high average age and loyality.
It'd be quite funny if -just for a moment- you stopped your "antisectarian" rant and explained why should communists support Syriza.

Would Tsipras negotiating with Merkel make all the difference?
There are no capitalists, no crisis, just some politicians who lack bravery in front of the Iron Lady?
How you even consider yourself radical in any way is absolutely beyond me.

Crux

18th June 2012, 21:10

It'd be quite funny if -just for a moment- you stopped your "antisectarian" rant and explained why should communists support Syriza.

Would Tsipras negotiating with Merkel make all the difference?
There are no capitalists, no crisis, just some politicians who lack bravery in front of the Iron Lady?
How you even consider yourself radical in any way is absolutely beyond me.
I think I've made the how's and why's of my position quite clear already. If you'd take off those blinders for a second we might be able to have a discussion. It's not a good thing that the KKE have dropped, but you reap what you sow. I understand that from the vantage point of splendid isolation and those tight blinders you've got on it might be hard to see what is happening. Your electoral base do not seem likewize as visually impaired though. But hey this is not the first time the KKE have tried a PCF anno 1968 or whatever re-enactment you've got going on there.

FSL

18th June 2012, 21:12

I think I've made the how's and why's of my position quite clear already. If you'd take off those blinders for a second we might be able to have a discussion. It's not a good thing that the KKE have dropped, but you reap what you sow. I understand that from the vantage point of splendid isolation and those tight blinders you've got on it might be hard to see what is happening. Your electoral base do not seem likewize as visually impaired though. But hey this is not the first time the KKE have tried a PCF anno 1968 or whatever re-enactment you've got going on there.

The one thing that's pretty clear is the lack of a direct answer I'm afraid.

Crux

18th June 2012, 21:26

The one thing that's pretty clear is the lack of a direct answer I'm afraid.
Let's hope you're not doing a KPD or CPE 1930's style though. I know how that one ends and trust me nobody wants that. Oh I thought you were perfectly familiar with my position, what with your "renegotiations" that and "Iron Lady" this. No, see if you check my posts in that thread about that SYRIZA mp with the "law is law" scab position on the steelworker's strike you might find that informative before you build a new strawman argument.

Crux

18th June 2012, 21:46

In fact if you want a more official response, and I've been meaning to put this up so it's not just for your benefit, FSL, check out www.paulmurphymep.eu for comrade Paul Murphy's reports from greece. Too much trot and not enough ML for you? Well although I take no responsibilty for their political positions, seeing as they are maoists and I'm not, but www.kasamaproject.org and their reporters hanging around with the KOE have done a pretty decent job of reporting as well.

FSL

18th June 2012, 22:31

I don't care about someone else. I especially don't care about some "maoist" who sides with KOE. Did you know that they didn't even have a response for when Synaspismos' paper erased the hammer and sickle from one of their flags in its front page?
The most radical part of that maoist party called for an end to german occupation, they were expelled and now the rest are very much happy siding with the likes of Hollande in their struggle for a EU of the people. That's low even for maoists.

I really really care about your opinion however and I'd like you to repeat it for me.
Will negotiations in the EU change something?
If not, should communists lie and claim they might?
Very direct questions, calling for two equally direct answers.

I'll just add this:

Interview: Greek Radical Left seeks dialogue for sustainable economy in euro

ATHENS, June 13 (Xinhua) -- Greek Radical Left Coalition (SYRIZA) does not intend to take unilateral actions, but seeks a resolution to the Greek debt crisis through dialogue with international creditors to pave the ground for "a sustainable Greek economy within the eurozone," a party spokesperson told Xinhua.
In the final stretch of the campaign to Sunday's national polls, the party's chief economic policy spokesperson Yannis Dragasakis played down fears that a SYRIZA government will follow a conflictive course.
Some believe it will unilaterally cancel the memorandum and bailout agreements with the European Unioin (EU) and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and lead the country to a disorderly default and an exit from the eurozone.
According to opinion polls, the Radical Left party vies for the first place with the conservatives of New Democracy who push for moderate modifications of some painful austerity terms.
Dragasakis, an economist who has served as Alternate Finance Minister in a coalition government in 1989, stressed to Xinhua that SYRIZA opts for a productive dialogue with lenders over an alternative plan for economic and social recovery that will keep Greece in the common currency zone.
"The memorandum refers to existing problems of Greece. But the remedy proved worse than the illness," he said.
"We face a deep crisis, an almost uncontrolled recession for a fifth year that indicates that this policy was proven as catastrophic and we should change it," he said, adding that the change is a matter of planning for the new government.
"We do not intend to take unilateral actions. Therefore, we do not expect unilateral actions. The threats, blackmails and bluffs do not provide a solution. Solutions come through dialogue," Dragasakis said when asked about the prospect of lenders stopping the disbursement of further loans to Greece, if Greece tears down the memorandum.
The senior party member stated that SYRIZA will try to convince other European countries that with the current policy, creditors will not get their money back, that the European Central Bank risks suffering major losses, since it is exposed to Greek bonds, and in general all lose.
SYRIZA aims to create a new situation, beneficial to all parties concerned, he stated, noting that "it will be difficult, but feasible."
Talking about the fear for a chaotic Greek bankruptcy and an exit from the eurozone, Dragasakis said "the dangers exist because of the policy implemented today," explaining that when recession increases, debt turns uncontrolled.
The second problem, according to his argument, is that "there is not a single page in the memorandum referring to growth." The third issue is that according to the current plan, from now to 2020, Greece has to pay over 100 billion euros (about 126 billion U.S. dollars) in interest.
"How can we pay without growth and how can we have growth if we have to give every euro for interest? That's why we are saying this policy leads to an impasse. It poses major dangers We wish to avoid these dangers, not manage them," he stressed.
Asked about the impact of the crisis on Greece's international relations and position, he commented that when a country faces such severe crisis, there is an impact on all its relations and the country weakens.
"That's what we want to avoid...We are not an anti-European party nor a European-friendly party. We are a European party, that's how we feel. We believe Greece is part of Europe, at the heart of Europe," he underlined.
"We want to restore our country's stature, to restore our peoples' dignity and pride and lay the ground for an economy that will be able to stand sustainable within the eurozone," he said.
"Perhaps the way we entered the eurozone was not the most appropriate, but if we exit now, things will be worse. That's why we insist on a strategy to remain in the euro on terms of equality and dignity," added Dragasakis.
As to the prospects of post-election cooperation with other parties to form a coalition government if no party wins again parliamentary majority, as it happened in May 6 elections, he said SYRIZA seeks the formation of a sound government to lead the country out of the crisis.
However, the party does not ignore the dual message of the elections, he added, explaining that on the one hand Greek people want a change in policy to take a breath, and on the other hand there is need to clear political life.
"Therefore, we should form a government that will not be just a continuity of previous governments, but will be able to make major changes in the state, in the political system, in taxation, in society, everywhere," he said.
Dragasakis sent a message of friendship to Chinese people, expressing hope for closer bilateral ties in the future.
"We thank the Chinese government and people, because despite the great geographical distance, we already have cooperation in many fields," he said.
"I wish to assure that we look forward to cooperation on equal terms, collaboration on development between China and Greece as part of the European Union. I believe there are great prospects to enhance our ties," the Greek member of parliament added.
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/xinhua/2012-06-14/content_6178347.html

So do you think communists should bury their hammer and sickle as well, "get in touch with their time" and transform to that thing above?
Promise solutions that come easily, through dialogue?
Maybe have wages raised by winning arguments against the capitalists?
Please do state your opinion. Explain to me why someone not siding with the person above is a "sectarian". Is it because he *gasp* says he's a leftist and a radical?

Crux

19th June 2012, 01:48

Sasha

19th June 2012, 03:08

breaking

A ballot box in exarcheia was set on fire. May delay results.

Responsibility claim for the burnt ballot box in Exarcheia (http://blog.occupiedlondon.org/2012/06/18/responsibility-claim-for-the-burnt-ballot-box-in-exarcheia/)

Monday, June 18, 2012

Greek original (https://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=1408019)

(https://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=1408019)
Responsibility claim for the burnt ballot box in Exarcheia (http://blog.occupiedlondon.org/2012/06/17/anarchists-set-ballot-box-in-exarcheia-on-fire-possibility-that-incident-will-delay-election-result-tension-in-the-area-mounts/), Athens on the night of the election of June 17th, 2012.
Everything around us seems to unwind in coercive binaries: memorandum/anti-memorandum, drachma/euro, fascism/anti-fascism. Perhaps even among our ranks it is necessary to take a position, to take a stance in this liminal conjuncture. Yet we don’t for a moment forget the only real binary: Revolution or consistency with the existent.
We refuse consensus, their dilemmas, social peace. Security concerns the profits of local and international capital; freedom concerns everyone else. The state and capital, the fascist and the banks are no invisible forces. They have names and addresses. They’d better begin to count down their days of plenty.
We look behind, in the past few years, at tough struggles. How can the barricades and the fires of February 12th fit in ballot boxes? How can the voices shouting “Enough!” fit in these boxes, voices raised by the few, the dignified proletarians at the times of wage fear and subordination? How can the struggles fit in those boxes, the struggles fought city after city, neighbourhood after neighbourhood, with the scum of GD? How can our brothers and sisters fit, those who are missing from our side, yet they are always next to us, even when in the cells of the regime?
At these liminal times, which have no space for reservations we attempt the unthinkable and we make the above ‘fit’. The 1000ml of petrol that we placed in the ballot box of the 18th polling station in Exarcheia at the June 17th elections are our 1000 votes, they are our 1000 challenges in an unpacifiable war.

The revolution first and always

P.S. A raised fist for the comrade Olga Oikonomidou

:)

Crux

19th June 2012, 03:18

I know they mean well but...:rolleyes:

A Marxist Historian

19th June 2012, 08:15

Because once things "popped off," before, several times, KKE sided with the capitalists against the rest of the anti austerity protesters who were planning an occuupation, so they could gain a few seats in parliament. Even in the last few months, their calls for "leaving the EU," "establishing socialism in greece," and such are absurd plans, which they took in order to stay seperate from the larger anti austerity movement. Sectarians tend to be opportunists, and calling for a revolution when there's literally no solid foundation for one among the working class seems like an opportunist claim when all you're doing is calling for a revolution while not practically organizing for one.

So, then, a socialist revolution in Greece is an "absurd plan," whereas an "anti-austerity" government, going to Brussels to try to renegotiate the debt agreements, is realistic?

The bankers are not gonna budge more than an inch or two, and in fact would probably be more willing to make more concessions to an ND government which they like than to a SYRIZA government which they don't.

The idea of an "anti-austerity" regime in Greece, as part of the EU(!) is downright absurd. Talk about cloud cuckoo land...

KKE notions of "socialism in one country" in Greece, insofar as they are truly serious about it, are at least a step in the right direction.

-M.H.-

A Marxist Historian

19th June 2012, 08:32

A Marxist Historian

19th June 2012, 08:41

Show me where I've sided with Dragasakis. No go ahead, I'll wait. And although I technically have no dog in that fight I'd be curious to see the KOE endorsement of Hollande as well. Supposing of course you're not just building strawmen again.

As for your direct questions, my short answer is "no" and "no". See that link I posted? No, not the Kasama one, the other one. Click it.

Re your first point about KOE I am just going to quote Tsipras to make you happy: "I don't believe that we are dealing with a war between nations. I believe that we are dealing with a class war. We don't believe that we are occupied by foreigners. We are under a financial occupation from both Greeks and foreigners."

How have you sided with Dragasikis? By calling for voting for SYRIZA. Just who do you think would be the economics minister, or whatever they call it, if SYRIZA had gotten elected? Why, Dragasikis of course.

Meanwhile KOE gets offered the health ministry so they can "serve the people" in best Maoist style, as most of 'em are college students involved in health programs for immigrants and such. (Which, I hear, they at least would be bright enough to turn down).

As for Tsipras's radical rhetoric, well, I am inevitably reminded of Stalin's line that paper will take anything you put on it.

-M.H.-

FSL

19th June 2012, 08:42

Show me where I've sided with Dragasakis. No go ahead, I'll wait. And although I technically have no dog in that fight I'd be curious to see the KOE endorsement of Hollande as well. Supposing of course you're not just building strawmen again.

As for your direct questions, my short answer is "no" and "no". See that link I posted? No, not the Kasama one, the other one. Click it.

Re your first point about KOE I am just going to quote Tsipras to make you happy: "I don't believe that we are dealing with a war between nations. I believe that we are dealing with a class war. We don't believe that we are occupied by foreigners. We are under a financial occupation from both Greeks and foreigners."

Yes and he said that before or after saying he is in favour of "healthy enterpreneurship"?
Maybe you forget but for each "radical" quote from Tsipras you have I can quote hundreds where he shows his class allegiance. Besides the whole idea of opportunism is to be all over the place, right? Otherwise how would he trick people like you in defending him?

So you do agree that Syriza lied to the people when he offered a supposedly easy solution. I'll assume then that you, being an honest man, very much agree with not supporting Syriza, in fact unmasking their lies.

Crux

19th June 2012, 12:03

Yes and he said that before or after saying he is in favour of "healthy enterpreneurship"?
Maybe you forget but for each "radical" quote from Tsipras you have I can quote hundreds where he shows his class allegiance. Besides the whole idea of opportunism is to be all over the place, right? Otherwise how would he trick people like you in defending him?

So you do agree that Syriza lied to the people when he offered a supposedly easy solution. I'll assume then that you, being an honest man, very much agree with not supporting Syriza, in fact unmasking their lies.
haha, you have no idea why I said "to make you happy", right? God, you're predictable.
I agree with revealing the limitations of their politics to the masses that support them, agree with fighting against any rightwing turn and capitulation, possibly within SYRIZA but I am not dogmatic on this.
Oh and indeed my position on the KKE leadership is exactly the same, win the cadres demask the phraseradical conservatives in the leadership.
Just as the utopian reformists in the SYN leadership must be demasked.

But I do defend Tsipras, against the right, but not against the left. Tsipras represents the "moderate" wing of SYN and they must be forced to choose, they must be demasked. KKE in their deeply deeply ingrained almost gangreous secterianism have very little concept on how to win reformists, social democrats etc to a revolutionary position. And I am not talking about politicians. I am talking about the masses. Which you denounce for voting "PASOK" SYRIZA. Probably because the phrase radicalism is an effective veil to cover up their own political failings. To keep their working class base in line. these illusions, just as the illusions in Tsipras must be demasked. Comradely but conclusively and firmly. I don't pretend my posts here represent some kind of official statements from my organization so I feel free to have a less "tactful" approach, but in the final analysis the deeply ingrained secterianism on the greek left, which KKE would be one of the more overt and certainly the most mainstream example of, needs to be overcome. Not by capitulation or cozying up to the likes of your leadership or the SYN rightwing, but firm comradely explanation and agitation. Patiently explain as Lenin said. And the goal with this is not to convince someone like Tsipras or Aleka Papriga to come over to a marxist position, even though that would be nice, but to win the masses that look to them, the rank-and-file and the cadre that can be won. If that is done no amount of secterianism or opportunism from either will be able to stop the masses.

Oh and forgive me for leaving them out but also from the anarchists bloc we must win and convince people and i think this is entirely possible. Rejection of parlimentary politics is essentially, especially in greece, a healthy reaction. I'll leave it at that but if anyone sympathetic to the, arguably very varied, greek anarchist movement wishes to take that discussion up I am ready to do that as well.

FSL

19th June 2012, 13:26

I very much like how you find "utopian reformists" in the Syn leadership.
Because that's your conclusion when the person in charge of the economic programme gives an interview to China Daily to say they'll only pursuit dialogue with Eurozone and tries to calm investors. "Oh my, he's such an utopian reformist. Lovely comrade this guy, just not that bright. He has forgot about that class struggle thing and he thinks capitalism can become humane through dialogue. Silly comrade!"
You're just so lucky for that 2%. You can keep your crazy talk until those "utopian reformists" receive the call.

You don't win people over to your side by lying to them. The communist party could not claim a solution can be achieved through dialogue, in the EU and with capitalists. That would be a tragic defeat because it would mean that the communist party changed sides. And there'd be no one left on our side then. If it had said ok and it was part of the government, it would be no different to what communist parties in Italy or France (or today in Ukraine) did and even worse, since what is needed now is more cuts for capitalism to jumpstart again.
If the communist party helped in managing the capitalist crisis, people then would have a right to be absolutely furious against it.

PS. A few months ago Syriza's position on taxing the ship-owners was to simply cancel the tax breaks they now have. A few weeks before the election this was changed to "initiating a dialogue with the ship owners to try and find a way they could contribute to the public revenue". They even compared them to capitalists of the past who supposedly "helped the public by donating money for social purposes".
Just today one syriza representative in a TV debate blamed the communist party for the historical opportunity that was missed. When asked whether that opportunity involved discussing with ship owners she immediately replied "We were not going to discuss with any ship owners, we're very clear on whose interests we represent".

It gets to a point where you feel the right thing to do is just punch them in the face. Those are the naive and innocent utopian reformists you're talking about. Yeah, they mean well I'm telling you.

Crux

19th June 2012, 17:53

How have you sided with Dragasikis? By calling for voting for SYRIZA. Just who do you think would be the economics minister, or whatever they call it, if SYRIZA had gotten elected? Why, Dragasikis of course.

Meanwhile KOE gets offered the health ministry so they can "serve the people" in best Maoist style, as most of 'em are college students involved in health programs for immigrants and such. (Which, I hear, they at least would be bright enough to turn down).

As for Tsipras's radical rhetoric, well, I am inevitably reminded of Stalin's line that paper will take anything you put on it.

-M.H.-
it's funny you should mention Stalin because by calling for a vote for KKE you must have made an unannounced conversion to stalinism going by your logic. I know you're not untintelligent so stop insulting my intelligence. You may disagree but you know full well what critical support means and if you think we're friends of the SYN right (or the KOE) you must know nothing of what the greek CWI did when we were a consistuent part of SYRIZA. So drag yourself out of the rhetorical mud and stop strawmanning.
FSL: It might be the language barrier but I in no shape or form meant utopian reformist as a compliment, indeed very much the opposite. I find it amazing that you have so little faith in your own party, KKE, that you assume any support offered for a left government would not just be made completely unconditionally but also result in you selling out your program at lightning speed. Should I take this as an assesment of the value you place in your program? First even halfway alliance with any other left force would result in KKE throwing all principles out the window? You're a harsher critic than I am then obviously. I mean I assume it would at least take time before going "don't like our principles? Here are new ones!". But I suppose you'd know this better than me.

FSL

19th June 2012, 22:19

FSL: It might be the language barrier but I in no shape or form meant utopian reformist as a compliment, indeed very much the opposite. I find it amazing that you have so little faith in your own party, KKE, that you assume any support offered for a left government would not just be made completely unconditionally but also result in you selling out your program at lightning speed. Should I take this as an assesment of the value you place in your program? First even halfway alliance with any other left force would result in KKE throwing all principles out the window? You're a harsher critic than I am then obviously. I mean I assume it would at least take time before going "don't like our principles? Here are new ones!". But I suppose you'd know this better than me.
I guess all communist parties that made concessions to the bourgeoisie started with "much faith in the strength of the party". Until they dissolved or transformed into something akin to "modern left". I like to have faith in parties that won't make concessions that threaten their nature.

Here's what you're proposing communists should offer critical support to by the way:

Though it didn't win last weekend's election, Greece's fast-rising radical leftist leader says his party has won the argument against the austerity measures keeping Greece in the eurozone and will inevitably come to power.

"What Syriza has been saying all along is that the bailout plan is not viable and cannot go on," party chief Alexis Tsipras told Reuters in his first interview since last Sunday's parliamentary election. "Now they all recognise this."

Indeed, the conservative New Democracy party won the most seats in the new parliament on a promise to push through spending cuts imposed by European authorities. But after the vote, party chief Antonis Samaras said the eurozone's memorandum of understanding with Greece over its 130-billion-euro bailout should be modified.

Tsipras, a charismatic 37-year-old former student communist, predicted that the newly elected Greek government would fail because it was based on "spent political forces", paving the way for Syriza to assume power.

New Democracy and the centre-left PASOK party have taken turns ruling Greece since the country's military dictatorship ended in 1974 and many citizens blame them for its current plight.

Syriza won 27 percent of the vote in Sunday's election, up from 17 percent at a previous inconclusive election in May. That made it the second largest party behind New Democracy and delighted its supporters, who partied late into the night outside Athens University after results came in.

Relaxed and confident in his Athens headquarters, where the waiting room sports a portrait of revolutionary icon Che Guevara, Tsipras said: "Nobody else but us can carry out the deep reforms the country needs because we are not corrupt or worn out. Sooner or later, we will get this opportunity."

ALTERNATIVE POLITICAL MOVEMENT

Tsipras said Syriza's rapid rise showed how Greeks were channelling their rage at the austerity measures - which have sent the economy into a deep recession and pushed unemployment close to 23 percent - into an alternative political movement.

Given public anger at Greece's long-established parties, he added, "if Syriza didn't exist today the alternative would be extremes, chaos and Golden Dawn," a neo-Nazi party.

"We will prepare a lot better to exercise a much more combative and responsible opposition," he pledged. "And, obviously, to organise to be able to claim government when the opportunity arises."

Syriza's key demands are for wealthy tax evaders to be taxed, and for what Tsipras calls "huge and unbelievable waste in the public sector" to be stamped out, by making it function more effectively.

"We have talked about the need to stop people collecting salaries for doing nothing, about reducing the number of ministers' advisers and government officials by half, and curtailing MPs and ministers' wages and privileges," he said.

Tsipras said he opposed the terms of the bailout because it didn't help ordinary Greeks who had suffered most from austerity and recession. "It is a bailout for banks and a sinking of the needs of the real economy and society," he said.

Greek politicians have turned their fire on Germany for insisting on deep spending cuts despite the country's deep recession and Tsipras had a special message for Chancellor Angela Merkel.

Merkel "must not insist on the mistake of austerity", he said. "Europe cannot march on united if it continues to support these barbaric measures."

Citing the spreading of the eurozone crisis to other countries as proof that Greece was not the root cause, Tsipras added: "All those people who said the problem was the lazy Greeks are now seeing the problems in Spain and Italy too. Something else is wrong."

RAGE AS A WEAPON TO NEGOTIATE

Although Germany has resisted anything more than minor changes to the Greek bailout, a senior Eurozone official privately agreed with Athens. "Anybody who would say that we need not, and cannot renegotiate the (memorandum) is delusional," the official, who declined to be named, told Reuters in Brussels.

Greece's near-bankrupt government will run out of money next month unless it receives a fresh infusion of cash from international lenders. That will depend on the findings of a team of monitors who are due in Athens to check progress on the austerity programme.

Asked about strategy after Sunday's election, Tsipras signalled that Syriza would not call its supporters onto the streets to protest against the austerity measures. The bloc of 12 leftist groupings would instead focus its energy on creating "a shield of protection for those on the margins".

"Solidarity and resistance are both important, but right now solidarity is the most important," he said. "Our role is to be inside and outside parliament, applauding anything positive and condemning all that is negative and proposing alternatives."

Clearly relishing his new-found international fame and his fast-rising popularity at home, Tsipras suggested his greatest moment was yet to come however.

"Greece needs courageous and decisive leaders who can use the rage of our people...as a weapon to negotiate for the benefit of the country", he said.

(Editing By Paul Ingrassia and Andrew Osborn)
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/06/19/uk-greece-election-tsipras-idUKBRE85I17E20120619

Cut waste in the public sector, implement reforms, reforms that demand people who simply are not corrupt. A responsible opposition, that won't call (god forbid!) street protests because now's not the time.
Austerity as proposed by Merkel is only a mistake, it's not capitalists trying to squeeze workers for more profits and the only alternatives people have is either Syriza or the extremes, a Weimar Republic, Nazis. Didn't he forget someone?

One can only be joking when he claims that communists should sink to supporting, critically even, that.
Those kinds of communists aren't needed at all.

Grenzer

20th June 2012, 00:20

Maybe this will pressure KKE into a united front since they're opportunists and are losing votes.

That's not a United Front at all. That's a Keynesian populist front. Syriza is a thoroughly bourgeois party. They're firmly committed to the EU. While this in itself is not necessarily problematic, the strategic reasoning behind it seems to be avoiding unnecessary alienation of the bourgeoisie.

A Marxist Historian

20th June 2012, 07:27

it's funny you should mention Stalin because by calling for a vote for KKE you must have made an unannounced conversion to stalinism going by your logic. I know you're not untintelligent so stop insulting my intelligence. You may disagree but you know full well what critical support means and if you think we're friends of the SYN right (or the KOE) you must know nothing of what the greek CWI did when we were a consistuent part of SYRIZA. So drag yourself out of the rhetorical mud and stop strawmanning..

When Trotsky urged the SWP to vote for the CPUSA candidates in 1940, was he announcing his commitment to Stalinism? Refusing to give the KKE critical support because it upholds Stalin, who happens to be dead at this point, is Stalinophobia, and in fact Shachtmanism-Shachtman's influence surely was one reason the SWP refused to vote for Browder.

There is a basis for critical support to the KKE, who are calling for socialism and revolution--as was the CPUSA, during the Hitler-Stalin pact (but not in Germany).

There is no basis for critical support to SYRIZA, who are doing no such thing. SYRIZA is throwing dust in the eyes of the Greek working class with their delusion that it is possible to have an "anti-austerity" government as part of the EU.

And apparently, according to what our Greek pro-KKE posters are saying, they were dropping the mask when they thought they were winning and giving the game away that they'd just be the new PASOK if in power.

That SYRIZA lost is probably just as well. A SYRIZA regime could probably smother class struggle and get rebellious Greek workers to accept austerity much better than a feeble and discredited ND-PASOK regime.

And, oh yes, I have no idea whether your party and anyone in SYRIZA at the moment are "friends," nor do I see why that matters. You called for voting for SYRIZA, which means you are trying to put them into office.

And this is a poor species of "critical support," as SYRIZA has said what they would do in office. They will go to Brussels and negotiate, and get the best deal they can with the bankers. If said deal is little or no better than what PASOK got, then they've tried their best, and one could hardly accuse them of betrayal. It's the platform they ran on basically. Stay in the EU, revolution is not on the agenda, let's just have the best "anti-austerity coalition" we can.

Now, the KKE has made some very serious promises, which if elected I have very serious doubt they can follow through on. Here the tactic of critical support is a natural.

-M.H.-

Crux

20th June 2012, 11:40

I guess all communist parties that made concessions to the bourgeoisie started with "much faith in the strength of the party". Until they dissolved or transformed into something akin to "modern left". I like to have faith in parties that won't make concessions that threaten their nature.

Here's what you're proposing communists should offer critical support to by the way:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/06/19/uk-greece-election-tsipras-idUKBRE85I17E20120619

Cut waste in the public sector, implement reforms, reforms that demand people who simply are not corrupt. A responsible opposition, that won't call (god forbid!) street protests because now's not the time.
Austerity as proposed by Merkel is only a mistake, it's not capitalists trying to squeeze workers for more profits and the only alternatives people have is either Syriza or the extremes, a Weimar Republic, Nazis. Didn't he forget someone?

One can only be joking when he claims that communists should sink to supporting, critically even, that.
Those kinds of communists aren't needed at all.
See I have full sympathy and understanding that the KKE did not want to go down the route of the remnants of the PCI back in the 90's . KKE remains a working class party, albeit a sectarian and conservative one,
whereas the Democratic Party in italy is no such thing. Good on you and I cathegorically reject alliances with the ex-social democrtic parties. Reformists who have not only no ability to carry out reforms but are in fact being just as neoliberal as the right (see PASOK, PSOE, PSP etc). And these days this condemnation includes, or at least tarnishes, many of the ex-CP's. But everything is not black and white.
SYRIZA are not nor are they trying to transform themselfes into PASOK, I hope they leave that suicidal trajectory to DIMAR. But nothing is pre-defined here what happens eventually is down to the struggle of the left and, crucially, the working class. I think any left that wants to be able to claim that name should reject outright the parlimentary cretinism it would be to rule with any of the social democrat, or perhaps ex-social democrat is more apt, parties.

Not because they are reformists but because they long ago ceased to be even that and consequentially lost their roots in the working class. How we relate to them, that is parties like PASOK, SPD, New Labour etc should not essentially be diferent to how we relate to the Democratic Party in the US. Now what about actual reformists, like the center and right of SYN, like Tsipras etc? Well, since this is a situation we have not found ourselfes in this situation for decades here in europe I think the most immediate point of reference can be found in Latin America. Is Chavez a revolutionary marxist? No of course not he is a left populist and reformist, and this is even more true for Correa, Morales etc. How then should we relate to their governments and even more crucially to the masses that support them?

What do the comrades of the CWI mean when we give very strong criticism indeed say even left reformism is no way forward but to some extent we still say, in the upcoming election presidential election, vote Chavez? Have we suddenly dropped all our criticism? No this is what is called "critical support". We do not give this support merely because the right is worse, it is not about supporting the "lesser evil". We did not, for example, endorse Hollande even though he is, arguably "better" than Sarkozy. Indeed we did not endorse Jean-Luc Melenchon either but, even though we have walked out of the NPA, we endorsed the NPA candidate.

For us it is not a matter of cozying up to people like Tsipras etc but on how to best relate to and win the masses and indeed win genuine reformists, centrists and even stalinists to the cause of revolutionary marxism. This is not done by endorsing every left reformist in sight no matter how critical our endorsement but a question of the positions and trajectory of the party/parties and the masses behind them. In the may election Xekinema called for a critical vote for ANTARSYA, SYRIZA. and the KKE. Take note AMH. Now FSL, would you accuse me of being "soft" on the KKE? Was it the amazing rally of Kappa Kappa Epsilon I dropped by at Syntagma last april that turned my head with a sea of hammer and sickle adorned flags, made me find Stalin in my heart only to immediatly run to xekinima hq and go "COMRADES! Kappa kappa epsilon! We must endorse them!"? While I do like to think I carry enough authority to single handedly determine the positions of the CWI we have given critical electoral support for years. Even when we were in SYRIZA, to the ire of some, in line with our call or a united front between all of the radical left in greece. Before we can discuss why we support a critical vote for SYRIZA I think I needed to outline what a critical vote means. While I may have been sharp and dersive before I hope we can have this discussion. Re Tsipras statements on the greek public sector I think you are letting yourself be biased by the KKE, at least the way I read it is that the reform talked abvout is rooting out the entrenched corruption put in place by ND and PASOK for years. Also we've fought against Tsipras and SYN inside SYRIZA before and we will do so again. Inside or outside of SYRIZA our position is not nor has it ever been an uncritical endorsemnt of the SYN right. They are our opponents in fighting for a revolutionary socialist worker's party with a mass base in Greece.

A Marxist Historian

21st June 2012, 22:49

...In the may election Xekinema called for a critical vote for ANTARSYA, SYRIZA. and the KKE. Take note AMH...

Duly noted. A difficult position to carry out, given that these three parties were all running against each other, and I assume that in most constituencies you had candidates from at least two if not three opposing candidates from that threesome. So which did Xekinema prefer to vote for?

Voting for ANTARSYA seems pointless, their slogans were not that incredibly different from those of the KKE, and the KKE unlike ANTARSYA is a mass party with a big trade union base. This no doubt is why the ANTARSYA vote total dropped like a rock, even worse than did the KKE's.

As the KKE and SYRIZA offered the voters fundamentally different alternatives, calling to vote for both seems rather eclectic, though I suppose a bit to the left of just calling for voting for SYRIZA. The implication I suppose is a call for a SYRIZA-KKE-ANTARSYA coalition government, a very bad idea.

An argument could be made at some point for critical support to a SYRIZA government if it swore off coalitions with bourgeois or pro-austerity (DL) parties, for as long as it actually did not carry out any austerity measures (about three weeks is my guess.) But left critics, whether KKE, ANTARSYA or any other, who actually *joined* such a coalition government would be making themselves appendages of reformism.

The exact opposite of the Bolshevik policy toward the Mensheviks, Kerensky etc., which the Bolsheviks were willing at points to critically support "like a rope supports a hanged man" as Lenin put it.

They were willing to have coalition governments with other left wing parties *after* the workers seized power, on the basis of Soviet rule not any Constituent Assembly elections. And only on condition that the other parties accepted the basic Bolshevik program, not the other way around. (In the case of the Left SR's the Bolsheviks accepted the Left SR peasant program because it was also what the peasants wanted. Of course even that coalition didn't last long.)

-M.H.-

Crux

22nd June 2012, 01:32

Duly noted. A difficult position to carry out, given that these three parties were all running against each other, and I assume that in most constituencies you had candidates from at least two if not three opposing candidates from that threesome. So which did Xekinema prefer to vote for?

Voting for ANTARSYA seems pointless, their slogans were not that incredibly different from those of the KKE, and the KKE unlike ANTARSYA is a mass party with a big trade union base. This no doubt is why the ANTARSYA vote total dropped like a rock, even worse than did the KKE's.

As the KKE and SYRIZA offered the voters fundamentally different alternatives, calling to vote for both seems rather eclectic, though I suppose a bit to the left of just calling for voting for SYRIZA. The implication I suppose is a call for a SYRIZA-KKE-ANTARSYA coalition government, a very bad idea.

An argument could be made at some point for critical support to a SYRIZA government if it swore off coalitions with bourgeois or pro-austerity (DL) parties, for as long as it actually did not carry out any austerity measures (about three weeks is my guess.) But left critics, whether KKE, ANTARSYA or any other, who actually *joined* such a coalition government would be making themselves appendages of reformism.

The exact opposite of the Bolshevik policy toward the Mensheviks, Kerensky etc., which the Bolsheviks were willing at points to critically support "like a rope supports a hanged man" as Lenin put it.

They were willing to have coalition governments with other left wing parties *after* the workers seized power, on the basis of Soviet rule not any Constituent Assembly elections. And only on condition that the other parties accepted the basic Bolshevik program, not the other way around. (In the case of the Left SR's the Bolsheviks accepted the Left SR peasant program because it was also what the peasants wanted. Of course even that coalition didn't last long.)

-M.H.-
But incidentally the strategy Lenin suggested for Brittain. Let's not get into a quote war though.

Our position has always been for a United Front of the left, that is the KKE, SYRIZA and ANTARSYA, long before SYRIZAs sudden rise in the polls. And this is not because we have any illusions in the leadership of any of those organizations. And why should we? We confronted the SYRIZA right first hand when we were inside SYRIZA. We know them. As for the KKE their secterianism is apparent to everyone, I don't know if "everyone" includes the sparts though. Maybe. But they *are* a working class formation and that's why we have never dropped our appeal for a United Front with them. The reason we did not call a vote for them in the new elections is because the situation is sharper and different, much the same reason why, I imagine, 50% of their voters deserted them.

Ocean Seal

22nd June 2012, 01:54

Here you go. (http://www.anonym.to/?http://paulmasonnews.tumblr.com/post/25284107429/sunday-morning-greece-votes-thoughts)

I thought that this would involve an octopus.

Lev Bronsteinovich

22nd June 2012, 03:16

For us it is not a matter of cozying up to people like Tsipras etc but on how to best relate to and win the masses and indeed win genuine reformists, centrists and even stalinists to the cause of revolutionary marxism. This is not done by endorsing every left reformist in sight no matter how critical our endorsement but a question of the positions and trajectory of the party/parties and the masses behind them. In the may election Xekinema called for a critical vote for ANTARSYA, SYRIZA. and the KKE. Take note AMH. Now FSL, would you accuse me of being "soft" on the KKE? Was it the amazing rally of Kappa Kappa Epsilon I dropped by at Syntagma last april that turned my head with a sea of hammer and sickle adorned flags, made me find Stalin in my heart only to immediatly run to xekinima hq and go "COMRADES! Kappa kappa epsilon! We must endorse them!"? While I do like to think I carry enough authority to single handedly determine the positions of the CWI we have given critical electoral support for years. Even when we were in SYRIZA, to the ire of some, in line with our call or a united front between all of the radical left in greece. Before we can discuss why we support a critical vote for SYRIZA I think I needed to outline what a critical vote means. While I may have been sharp and dersive before I hope we can have this discussion. Re Tsipras statements on the greek public sector I think you are letting yourself be biased by the KKE, at least the way I read it is that the reform talked abvout is rooting out the entrenched corruption put in place by ND and PASOK for years. Also we've fought against Tsipras and SYN inside SYRIZA before and we will do so again. Inside or outside of SYRIZA our position is not nor has it ever been an uncritical endorsemnt of the SYN right. They are our opponents in fighting for a revolutionary socialist worker's party with a mass base in Greece.

But it seems pretty clear that SYRIZA is not putting forth even some kind of crude or formalistic approach that draws a sharp class line. The KKE, for all of its faults, and in spite of the fact that I would be shocked by them actually carrying it out, are putting forth a roughly communist position at this time. SYRIZA is run by operators who will happily administer capitalism, with some reforms, if they can manage them. The KKE will also balk, when push comes to shove, but that's where critical support actually means something -- revolutionaries can point out, over and over again, that the KKE are NOT carrying out their stated program. With SYRIZA? Their program is to stay in the EU and have some reforms -- they can actually do that without changing things in a meaningful, revolutionary way.