North Korea -- Worlds Last Stalinist State

[Anarcho-Brocialist]

I watched a video on MSNBC about their journey to N. Korea. I couldn't help by notice the false propaganda that they were spewing out. After a couple minutes into the video, I had to cut if off.

click here (http://video.msnbc.msn.com/rock-center/47836624/) to watch the link.

[DasFapital]

Its a Juche state, and also MSNBC annoys the shit out of me.

[Art Vandelay]

Its a Juche state, and also MSNBC annoys the shit out of me.

Which is the deformed cousin of stalinism.

[Neoprime]

Which is the deformed cousin of stalinism.

No it isn't.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Juche is Stalin's idea of "socialism in one country" carried to its logical conclusion and merged with Korean nationalism.

Of course there are material reasons why the North Korean state evolved the way it did, not the least of which was the Korean War and the US destruction of much of the country. The basic Stalinist model starting from Km Il Sung was not a great start.

[Art Vandelay]

No it isn't.

That is not an argument.

[Bronco]

How are we defining "Stalinism" here, and what would make North Korea Stalinist but not the likes of Cuba and Belarus?

[Igor]

No it isn't.

boom roast crushing analysis

To be honest, North Korea doesn't have much to do with Stalinist Soviet Union. North Korea, at this point, has absolutely nothing to do with any kind of progressive ideology, Soviet Union was at least a product of a genuine proletarian revolution which actually was largely positive force even under Stalin, capitalist or not. But any "defence" for the NK one really seems to brought up around here are basically arguments for social democracy, and even the worst social democracy in the world while at that. The regime at the moment is only holding back NK, and its collapse even only for a new capitalist, even pro-West one, regime to spawn would be desirable. Not to reach socialism or anything like that, simply to bring the North Korean living conditions to a bearable level.


Of course there are material reasons why the North Korean state evolved the way it did, not the least of which was the Korean War and the US destruction of much of the country. The basic Stalinist model starting from Km Il Sung was not a great start.

I see this in every NK thread and it's amusing. Of course there are reasons for why NK is how it is. Generally, things that happen have reasons behind them. You're not really saying anything there. Context is cool I guess, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't judge and condemn something entirely. Why nobody ever mentions that there are material reasons behind imperialism, there was a material reason behind rise of fascism, material reasons for emergence of capitalism? Why are "material reasons" only brought up to defend something, usually former east bloc countries, as if the fact that there were reasons behind things they did is a defence? Just mentioning the material reasons doesn't say anything at all.

[Art Vandelay]

How are we defining "Stalinism" here, and what would make North Korea Stalinist but not the likes of Cuba and Belarus?

I would also count Cuba as a relative of stalinism, however I have much more sympathy to the Cuban revolution while still maintaining a critical view of it (given that it is a bourgeois state and all).

[Art Vandelay]

I see this in every NK thread and it's amusing. Of course there are reasons for why NK is how it is. Generally, things that happen have reasons behind them. You're not really saying anything there. Context is cool I guess, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't judge and condemn something entirely. Why nobody ever mentions that there are material reasons behind imperialism, there was a material reason behind rise of fascism, material reasons for emergence of capitalism? Why are "material reasons" only brought up to defend something, usually former east bloc countries, as if the fact that there were reasons behind things they did is a defence? Just mentioning the material reasons doesn't say anything at all.

Given that we are all materialists (I hope; although many who claim to be aren't) I would think that it would be obvious that there are material reasons behind the emergence of capitalism (and etc.) and that no one here (again, I hope) would be opposed to the emergence of capitalism.

[Igor]

Stalinism is really quite the buzzword and I've yet to see any actually good definiton for it. I wouldn't personally use it but to refer to Soviet Union (maybe Mongolia too I guess) from 1930's to 1950's.

Just capitalist is good enough for me.

[Igor]

Given that we are all materialists (I hope; although many who claim to be aren't) I would think that it would be obvious that there are material reasons behind the emergence of capitalism (and etc.) and that no one here (again, I hope) would be opposed to the emergence of capitalism.

My point exactly! Things happen because of material reasons, the fact that the "material reasons behind NK" is brought up in every NK thread seems stupid to me, especially because there are people that almost seem to assume that this counts as somekind of defence for NK, that it somehow excuses the horrendous situation in NK.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Juche is Stalin's idea of "socialism in one country" carried to its logical conclusion and merged with Korean nationalism.

Of course there are material reasons why the North Korean state evolved the way it did, not the least of which was the Korean War and the US destruction of much of the country. The basic Stalinist model starting from Km Il Sung was not a great start.

While I agree with your post, I was just wondering about the bolded section because I would argue that the war did have something to do with it. I was just wondering why you think this.

[Art Vandelay]

Stalinism is really quite the buzzword and I've yet to see any actually good definiton for it. I wouldn't personally use it but to refer to Soviet Union (maybe Mongolia too I guess) from 1930's to 1950's.

Just capitalist is good enough for me.

I don't think, however, that "capitalist" is descriptive enough. "Stalinism," or at least what I refer to it as, was capital's solution to varying periods of crises across different geographical locations (although it took different forms in different places; which is why I referred to Juche as Stalinism's deformed cousin).

[Art Vandelay]

My point exactly! Things happen because of material reasons, the fact that the "material reasons behind NK" is brought up in every NK thread seems stupid to me, especially because there are people that almost seem to assume that this counts as somekind of defence for NK, that it somehow excuses the horrendous situation in NK.

Indeed, we are in agreement here, although I think that our comrade LR would also agree with us.

[Art Vandelay]

While I agree with your post, I was just wondering about the bolded section because I would argue that the war did have something to do with it. I was just wondering why you think this.

I think perhaps you may have misinterpreted what LR was saying, although I could be wrong.

[TheAltruist]

I couldn't help by notice the false propaganda that they were spewing out.
What sort of false propaganda? I don't watch MSNBC, so just wondering what they spew out these days.

[Igor]

Indeed, we are in agreement here, although I think that our comrade LR would also agree with us.

Ah, okay. I'm not familiar with LR's politics, it was just that the line they used was really something used painfully often in NK apologia.


I don't think, however, that "capitalist" is descriptive enough. "Stalinism," or at least what I refer to it as, was capital's solution to varying periods of crises across different geographical locations (although it took different forms in different places; which is why I referred to Juche as Stalinism's deformed cousin).

They come distinctly from the same tradition but are still different enough that I tend to stay away from the term Stalinism, especially considering how much more Juche is focused on Korean nationalism and full-on anti-Marxist shit. Or how would you actually clearly define Stalinism? The term is used occasionally on the weirdest occasions.

[Comrade Samuel]

No it isn't.

Obviously you couldn't be more wrong comrade, the North Korean government only contradicts Marx-Leninism with it's heavy nationalism, it's border-line monarchy, extremely abusive ruling class, god-like rulers and it's disregard for pretty much anything any real communist ever wrote, said or published.

It's practically the Stalinist dream!

[Art Vandelay]

Obviously you couldn't be more wrong comrade, the North Korean government only contradicts Marx-Leninism

Here we go.....


with it's heavy nationalism,

Ever hear the phrase "Mother Russia!?"


extremely abusive ruling class,

Check.


god-like rulers

Its not like Stalin had a personality cult :rolleyes: cough cough.


and it's disregard for pretty much anything any real communist ever wrote, said or published.

Another check.


it's border-line monarchy,


You got me there, oh wait that's why I called it stalinism's "deformed cousin."

[Lenina Rosenweg]

How are we defining "Stalinism" here, and what would make North Korea Stalinist but not the likes of Cuba and Belarus?

During the Korean War, something like a quarter of all buildings standing in the North were destroyed. Around a million Koreans were killed. there was fantastic destruction. North Korea emerged as a devastated, deeply wounded society.This helped make an already autocratic Stalinist state super paranoid and irrational.

The original Stalinist model North Korea was locked into did not help. The Soviets aided Kim Il Sung eliminate his three other rivals in the Korean Workers Party.

Belarus today isn't Stalinist. Lukashenko has introduced neoliberalism. Stalinism rests on a collectivized economy.

Cuba has been subjected to geat harm by the US and its revolution is being rolled back, but it did not experience the devastation of North Korea.

[seventeethdecember2016]

You have to be a little more than an Authoritarian regime to be considered 'Stalinist.' I would like to point out that that is also a slanderous term, and for the sake of political correctness it has be kept out of intelligent discussion.



Ever hear the phrase "Mother Russia!?"
That phrase refers to the Motherland of Socialism, or the land where Socialism presides. It has more with Socialist Patriotism and Proletarian Internationalism than Nationalism.

All Socialist, from around the world, were to be patriotic to the Soviet Union, as it was the country that was the epicenter of the Socialist Revolution.


Its not like Stalin had a personality cult :rolleyes: cough cough.
Stalin ridiculed those who tried to make a cult of personality for him. Kaganovich once said that Stalinism was greater than Marxist-Leninism, but Stalin corrected him saying there was no such thing as Stalinism and that they were Marxist-Leninists.

Stalin's supposed 'cult of personality' was invented by Khrushchev- who, as Grover Furr pointed out, added to the cult calling him a 'great leader' on several occasions prior to Stalin's death.

[Art Vandelay]

You have to be a little more than an Authoritarian regime to be considered 'Stalinist.' I would like to point out that that is also a slanderous term, and for the sake of political correctness it has be kept out of intelligent discussion.

Oh so the "Marxists-Leninists" (I hate that term seeing as those who align themselves with said tendency are neither Marxists nor Leninists) are allowed to hurl around the supposed insult of "ultra left" in a ridiculous and non sensical fashion, but these "ultra leftists" are not allowed to call those who think Stalin was correctly "building socialism" (what an absurd term) Stalinists? :lol:



That phrase refers to the Motherland of Socialism, or the land where Socialism presides. It has more with Socialist Patriotism and Proletarian Internationalism than Nationalism.

Socialist Patriotism :lol:.


Stalin ridiculed those who tried to make a cult of personality for him. Kaganovich once said that Stalinism was greater than Marxist-Leninism, but Stalin corrected him saying there was no such thing as Stalinism and that they were Marxist-Leninists.


No its not like Stalin was in favor of personality cults or anything, where would I have gotten that kooky idea, oh wait they fucking embalmed Lenin.


Stalin's supposed 'cult of personality' was invented by Khrushchev- who, as Grover Furr pointed out, added to the cult calling him a 'great leader' on several occasions prior to Stalin's death.

Like anyone but you Stalin fanboys take Grover Furr seriously.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Oh so the "Marxists-Leninists" (I hate that term seeing as those who align themselves with said tendency are neither Marxists nor Leninists) are allowed to hurl around the supposed insult of "ultra left" in a ridiculous and non sensical fashion, but these "ultra leftists" are not allowed to call those who think Stalin was correctly "building socialism" (what an absurd term) Stalinists? :lol:
What an absurd claim. You basically said, "you have to treat other tendencies equally." We Scientific Socialists have no business with a bunch of Idealist scum who plan to achieve Socialism and Communism by holding hands and lighting bonfires. No, we rather ridicule these kinds of beliefs and offer a more Pragmatic approach to achieving Socialism.



No its not like Stalin was in favor of personality cults or anything, where would I have gotten that kooky idea, oh wait they fucking embalmed Lenin.
Embalming Lenin, who lead the first successful Socialist Revolution, had far more to do with symbolism than a Cult of Personality. It meant that the Revolution would never end.

[Comrade Samuel]

Oh so the "Marxists-Leninists" (I hate that term seeing as those who align themselves with said tendency are neither Marxists nor Leninists) are allowed to hurl around the supposed insult of "ultra left" in a ridiculous and non sensical fashion, but these "ultra leftists" are not allowed to call those who think Stalin was correctly "building socialism" (what an absurd term) Stalinists? :lol:




Socialist Patriotism :lol:.



No its not like Stalin was in favor of personality cults or anything, where would I have gotten that kooky idea, oh wait they fucking embalmed Lenin.



Like anyone but you Stalin fanboys take Grover Furr seriously.


So you mean to say so called "ultra leftists" aren't so far left as most of us believe? I hardly think it's proper to accuse Marxist-Leninists of being not being Marxist or Leninist when we are the only people who have made any significant progress toward world-wide revolution in the last 97 years but I'm certan handing out fake newspapers to mcdonalds employees will cause the prolaterates of the world to take up arms, we will just back out.




Patriotism: devoted love, support, and defense of one's country; national loyalty.

Socialist partriotism: devoted love, support, and defense of one's socialist country; loyalty to the international working class.



yeah, where would you get such a crazy idea? Surely the trustworthy, rich, white god-fearing, right-wing fellas from the good 'ol US of A wouldn't know either...



Also: Embalmed: to preserve from oblivion; keep in memory: his deeds embalmed in the hearts of his disciples. (that's not being dogmatic either, thats the real dictionary.com definition/example)



And interestingly enough being a "stalin fanboy" myself I have never heard of Grover Furr but I'll have to make a point of checking out some of his lies and propaganda some time.

[Art Vandelay]

What an absurd claim. You basically said, "you have to treat other tendencies equally."

No I didn't.


We Scientific Socialists have no business with a bunch of Idealist scum
So I am scum now?


who plan to achieve Socialism and Communism by holding hands and lighting bonfires.

Who the fuck are you even talking about?


Embalming Lenin, who lead the first successful Socialist Revolution, had far more to do with symbolism than a Cult of Personality. It meant that the Revolution would never end.

Here is the great man theory popping up; the working class lead the first successful socialist revolution.


At the founding of the International, we expressly formulated the battle cry: The emancipation of the working class must be the work of the working class itself.

[seventeethdecember2016]

So I am scum now?
Actually, I was speaking generally. I didn't intend to personally pick you out of the crowd.





Here is the great man theory popping up; the working class lead the first successful socialist revolution.
Good point, and nice quote.
It was however Lenin at the helm of the Revolution, which makes him a symbol of sorts.

[Art Vandelay]

Good point, and nice quote.
It was however Lenin at the helm of the Revolution, which makes him a symbol of sorts.

Exactly a symbol which they turned into a cult of personality, regardless of whether you think that is a good idea or not, it cannot be denied.

[seventeethdecember2016]

Exactly a symbol which they turned into a cult of personality, regardless of whether you think that is a good idea or not, it cannot be denied.
As I said earlier, it was a symbol that the Revolution that would never end, as the Revolutionary leader lives on. Saying that is promoting a Cult of Personality is shifting it away from its original purpose.

Also, how is it any different from naming a street or building after him? It fulfills the same purpose- remembrance of Lenin.

[Art Vandelay]

As I said earlier, it was a symbol that the Revolution that would never end, as the Revolutionary leader lives on. Saying that is promoting a Cult of Personality is shifting it away from its original purpose.

Also, how is it any different from naming a street or building after him? It fulfills the same purpose- remembrance of Lenin.

Yeah except one is totally creepy and weird. Its like stuffing your dog when it dies to keep in the house :confused: Not to mention that this was far from the totality of the cult of personality built around Lenin, merely one aspect.