greek minster of defence/ former general blatantly threatens with coup 'd etat

[Sasha]

Only sources found till now are either in dutch or german (http://m.express.be/business/nl/economy/griekse-minister-van-defensie-het-leger-is-een-stille-macht-die-indien-nodig-een-oorverdovend-lawaai-zal-maken/170162.htm, http://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/2012/06/13/griechischer-verteidigungsminister-droht-mit-%E2%80%9Ebetaeubendem-laerm-des-militaers/) but apparently the former Greek army general now serving as the minister of defence blatantly threatened the greek people with a new junta...

Fucking hell...

[Die Neue Zeit]

The military brass should probably be fired en masse and replaced. Oh, and the French Revolution invented something called a "political officer" (to say nothing about the usefulness of politically reliable security agents embedded for surveillance within the military apparatus).

[Le Socialiste]

Just googled it and this was one of the first links to pop up:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/528.378698-Greek-Minister-of-Defense-threatens-the-country-with-a-coup

One of the translated pieces quote the minister as saying the following:


I hope that democracy works. But I would like to add one more thing. I repeat: the army is restraining itself. But it is a strong, silent power, which if necessary will make a deafening noise.

[X5N]

Spanish Civil War repeated in Greece, anyone?

[Lanky Wanker]

Shit's about to go down... I think.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Normally I am more on the side of redemptive politics and political re-education and opposed to the practice of Capital punishment, but it is statements like this who make me really question whether such principles like that can be held as absolutes. Based on the implication of his statement, if he had his way then blood would run on the streets. The world has seen enough Pinochets and Francos to know this tragedy before it starts.

Also, it seems some financiers and whatnot have been speaking of it as a possibility (or desiring it as a reality, it's hard to tell which with investors), for some time. Then there's this:


Shocking German Article: “In Berlin They Even Consider Military Coup Scenarios for Greece”

By Emmanouela Seiradaki (http://greece.greekreporter.com/author/emma/) on May 27, 2012 in News (http://greece.greekreporter.com/category/uncategorized/)
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Email24 ShareThis914 http://greece.greekreporter.com/files/21-aprol-tanks.jpg (http://greece.greekreporter.com/files/21-aprol-tanks.jpg)
During the past hours, the Greek media has been circulating a shocking German article from http://www.german-foreign-policy.com (http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/) that argues than in Berlin, authorities are considering coup scenarios and other ways to use armed forces to impose their will on Greece. The article is entitled “ On The Relevance of Democracy”, and it presents several nightmare scenarios on how the Germans intend to turn Greece into a protectorate since the German austerity dictate can no longer be enforced with democratic means. The article also refers to German commentators who are drawing comparisons to the situation in the later stages of Germany’s Weimar Republic: “In the Greek situation, the worst case would be a reversion to a dictatorship,” warned an influential commentator.
According to the website’s editors, German foreign policy.com is compiled by a group of independent journalists and social scientists who observe, on an ongoing basis, Germany’s renewed attempts to regain a status of great power in the economic, military and political arena.
ATHENS/BERLIN
In the run-up to new elections in Greece, the German elite is discussing various scenarios involving the use of force to ensure control over Athens, including the establishment of a protectorate or the deployment of “protection forces” in that southern European country. The German austerity dictate, pushing Greece into destitution, is provoking growing popular resistance, which, apparently, can no longer be suppressed with democratic means. Berlin has failed in its efforts to force Athens into subordination by threatening to withdraw the Euro, as much as with its demand that Greece combines its parliamentary elections with a referendum on the question of remaining in the Euro zone. Berlin categorically rejects the option of retracting the austerity dictate and replacing it with stimulus programs, as is being demanded by leading economists worldwide, even though the exclusion of Greece from the Euro zone threatens to push the currency itself, into an abyss.
17th of June – Greece’s Last Chance
After all attempts to form a government in Greece failed last week, it appears that in the elections set for June 17, those forces that are strictly opposed to the German austerity dictate will win a majority. Even with their slight majority in parliament, the three parties willing to implement the austerity program have not succeeded in forming a government. Polls are predicting their defeat. The fact that a majority in the Greek population would like to keep the Euro, is seen in Berlin and Brussels as a last chance to achieve a change in public opinion. Already before the announcement of new elections, German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schäuble declared that the Euro zone could easily cope with Greece’s withdrawal. EU Trade Commissioner Karel De Gucht has just confirmed that the EU Commission and the European Central Bank (ECB) are already preparing for Greece’s withdrawal. And, Jean-Claude Juncker, head of the Euro Group, is quoted as saying that “if we would take a poll with secret ballots on Greece remaining in the Euro zone, an overwhelming majority would vote against it.” The new elections are Greece’s “last chance.” If they do not furnish a majority for the austerity dictate, “it will be over.”
No Right to Respect
In addition, Berlin has obviously applied pressure on Athens to combine a referendum on remaining in the Euro zone with the elections. This tactic is aimed at weakening the opponents of austerity. According to reports, German Finance Minister Schäuble already made this proposal last Monday to his Greek counterpart at the meeting of the Euro finance ministers. This proposal is obviously supported by the Chairman of the CDU/CSU parliamentary group in the Bundestag, Volker Kauder (“Now German will be spoken in Europe”). A Greek government spokesman confirmed that Chancellor Angela Merkel urged Greek President Karolos Papoulias last Friday to implement the German plan for a Greek referendum, whereas in November 2011, Berlin briskly rebuffed the Prime Minister at the time, Giorgos Papandreou, when he publicly announced his proposal to hold a referendum. This led to his demise. Berlin’s open interference is met with outrage in Athens. The Greek population has a “right to respect,” the chairperson of the conservative Nea Dimokratia, Antonis Samaras, was quoted as saying. And the chairman of the opposition party Syriza, Alexis Tsipras, declared that Berlin is acting as if Greece “is a protectorate”.
Euro Dusk
Berlin is gruffly rebuffing every deviation from the severe austerity policy, ruining Greece, german-foreign-policy.com reported - in spite of the fact that this will accelerate the collapse of the entire Euro zone. A few days ago, the economist and Nobel laureate Paul Krugman was not the first to describe such a scenario. Soon, “most likely, next month,” Greece will exit the Euro zone, according to Krugman. Immediately thereafter, a comprehensive capital flight can be expected to Germany – at least from Spain and Italy, out of fear of these two countries’ economic collapse as well. This would necessitate drastic measures – limitations of money transfers or new support measures for Spanish and Italian banks, and possibly both. In the long run, however, support, particularly for the Spanish economy with stimulus programs, cannot be avoided. This would mean a strategy change for combatting the crisis that Berlin from the very beginning has been trying to avoid at all costs. “Germany has the choice,” explains Krugman, accept the change of course or “the end of the Euro” is imminent. Concerning the time span of the “Euro dusk,” Krugman says, “we are speaking in terms of months, not years.
Protectorate
The sectors of the German elite, which refuse to consider this change of course proposed by Krugman and numerous other experts outside Germany, are now publicly debating scenarios involving the use of force. In a newspaper interview early this month, the director of the prominent Hamburg Institute of International Economics, Thomas Straubhaar, called for establishing a protectorate in Greece – “regardless of the outcome of the elections”. The country is a “failed state,” he says, which is unable to raise itself “to a new start” under “its own steam.” Athens needs “help in establishing viable state structures”. It, therefore, must be transformed into “a European protectorate.” “The EU must do it,” affirms Straubhaar. The EU “would have to help Greece modernize its institutions at every level, particularly with administrative staff, tax experts, and tax inspectors.” However, refounding Greece would demand “intuition” to “overcome national pride, conceit, and the resistance of interest groups.” This is referring to a sovereign democracy, a German ally in the EU and NATO.
Putsch
In the meantime, there is even discussion of a putsch in Athens. Greece threatens to sink into complete chaos, warned a long time companion of Germany’s former Foreign Minister, Joseph Fischer, Daniel Cohn-Bendit, a European parliamentarian for the French Green Party. Cohn-Bendit explained that it is impossible to avoid extensive foreign interference. “If you leave the Greeks to muddle through alone, you are risking a military putsch.” German commentators are drawing comparisons to the situation in the later stages of Germany’s Weimar Republic. “In the Greek situation, the worst case would be a reversion to a dictatorship,” warned an influential commentator. “This scenario becomes more probable as instability grows.” In reference to the links between a possible dictatorship and Berlin’s austerity dictate, the commentator writes, “already today, it seems as though Merkel’s austerity policy can, at best, be imposed on the streets of Athens by force of arms.”
Protection Forces
Last week, a leading German daily discussed the issue of dispatching troops to Greece. Should the country go bankrupt, it would then, as a “‘failing state,’ (…) be less in a position” to shore up its borders against migrants, writes the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Just recently, the EU Commission announced that it finds itself forced to prolong the mission of its EU border troops at the Greek/Turkish borders. If Athens “should no longer be able to pay its officials, or can pay only in Drachmas,” the situation risks becoming “chaotic”. The country could possibly “be rocked by rebellions”. “Help for Greece would then no longer be on credit, but be transformed into a sort of humanitarian emergency aid,” prophesied the journal in its front-page lead editorial. “Hopefully, an international protection force, such as the one stationed in the teetering countries further to the north, will not become an option.”
(Sources: Newsit.gr, Onalert.gr)



http://greece.greekreporter.com/2012/05/27/shocking-german-article-in-berlin-they-even-consider-military-coup-scenarios-for-greece/

[Lynx]

To what end? To ensure that austerity is carried out?

[Anarcho-Brocialist]

Greece is a pressure cooker that is set to explode. And from the looks of it, the working classes, immigrants, or the European people are not going to gain anything out of it.

[Threetune]

Only sources found till now are either in dutch or german (http://m.express.be/business/nl/economy/griekse-minister-van-defensie-het-leger-is-een-stille-macht-die-indien-nodig-een-oorverdovend-lawaai-zal-maken/170162.htm, http://deutsche-wirtschafts-nachrichten.de/2012/06/13/griechischer-verteidigungsminister-droht-mit-%E2%80%9Ebetaeubendem-laerm-des-militaers/) but apparently the former Greek army general now serving as the minister of defence blatantly threatened the greek people with a new junta...

Fucking hell...



Indeed. So what can we successfully fight this with - other than the dictatorship of the proletariat which all the ‘lefts’, including Stalinists and anarchists are refusing to agitate for or even discuss in the workers movements.

[Metacomet]

Spanish Civil War repeated in Greece, anyone?

Probably with the same result as well.

[Sasha]

Indeed. So what can we successfully fight this with - other than the dictatorship of the proletariat which all the ‘lefts’, including Stalinists and anarchists are refusing to agitate for or even discuss in the workers movements.



internationalist struggle in solidarity to begin with... and that doesnt mean (only) a few mass demonstrations as in the run up to the iraq war but a consequent and prolonged attack on both the military infrastructure by all of us who live in NATO countries, disruption of the political and economic normality in all junta supporting countries (EU/VS/NATO) and tangible material support for the greek resistance.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Just how seriously should this threat be taken? I doubt a coup could be successful in Greece considering it would certainly result in a civil war. Then again, war is profitable for some.

[Delenda Carthago]

Should I worry?:crying:

[Welshy]

This doesn't make sense. If there is a military coup, wouldn't that be grounds for being expelled from the EU and along with it the eurozone? I thought the greek and international capitalists wanted to keep Greece in the euro and force austerity on it? Or have they just gotten this desperate?

[Tim Cornelis]

This doesn't make sense. If there is a military coup, wouldn't that be grounds for being expelled from the EU and along with it the eurozone? I thought the greek and international capitalists wanted to keep Greece in the euro and force austerity on it? Or have they just gotten this desperate?

Implying, of course, that the Greek military leadership are under direct control of "international capitalists." Instead of an independent, patriotic group of armed idiots.


Should I worry?:crying:

No, you were the one suggesting we need to nuke Greece or something, after all, weren't you?

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Should I worry?:crying:

If Syriza wins the election there will be enormous pressure on them from EU to buckle under and enormous pressure from the Greek masses to fight back.Possibly this will be the time when "shit gets real". Under enormous conflicting pressures, the state might buckle or collapse. In such a situation revolutionaries should fight to move the revolutionary process ahead as aggressively as possible, that is, arm the workers.Avoid premature slogans or actions but when bourgeois state collapses, the only good defense is a good offence. The ruling class may have to enforce austerity at the of a bayonet.

Have an escape route prepared. Keep your EU passport in a very safe place.

[Delenda Carthago]

If Syriza wins the election there will be enormous pressure on them from EU to buckle under and enormous pressure from the Greek masses to fight back.Possibly this will be the time when "shit gets real". Under enormous conflicting pressures, the state might buckle or collapse. In such a situation revolutionaries should fight to move the revolutionary process ahead as aggressively as possible, that is, arm the workers.Avoid premature slogans or actions but when bourgeois state collapses, the only good defense is a good offence. The ruling class may have to enforce austerity at the of a bayonet.

Have an escape route prepared. Keep your EU passport in a very safe place.
OK.

[Lanky Wanker]

If Syriza wins the election there will be enormous pressure on them from EU to buckle under and enormous pressure from the Greek masses to fight back.Possibly this will be the time when "shit gets real". Under enormous conflicting pressures, the state might buckle or collapse. In such a situation revolutionaries should fight to move the revolutionary process ahead as aggressively as possible, that is, arm the workers.Avoid premature slogans or actions but when bourgeois state collapses, the only good defense is a good offence. The ruling class may have to enforce austerity at the of a bayonet.

Have an escape route prepared. Keep your EU passport in a very safe place.

I bet that hasn't scared our comrade at all... :lol:

[Delenda Carthago]

A coup d etat for right now its not on the menu. Maybe in a few months, maybe in a year. But for now its not plausible.

[Ocean Seal]

And what of the rest of us if the Greek revolution does take place. With Syriza and the KKE resisting austerity from the looks of economic determinism it would seem that this pressure cooker is cooking. And what if the military is broken? If one wishes to enforce austerity with a gun, one needs the money to supply the military. Now our good friend Angela could put the money down, but what guarantee does she have that the roving bunch of nationalists will come back on her investment. Without a doubt the junta would work out for them, but nationalists imbued with hubris aren't exactly the bargaining ones especially while they don't need the support. And this combined with the bourgeoisies shortsightedness could be the perfect storm.

We have Greece and then what? Let's start brainstorming socialism in two countries... What does the rest of the world do with us communists.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

For now the best case scenario is that we will have a European Hugo Chavez.If this happens there will have to be an immediate call for solidarity from the rest of the European working class.

[Art Vandelay]

For now the best case scenario is that we will have a European Hugo Chavez.If this happens there will have to be an immediate call for solidarity from the rest of the European working class.

I don't see how a "European Hugo Chavez" would be anyway beneficial. I mean how is the left wing of capital taking over a bourgeois state in anyway desirable from a marxist perspective?

P.S. Alot can be lost in translation over the internet, but my questions were not meant to sound hostile at all, but merely curious.

[Regicollis]

This doesn't make sense. If there is a military coup, wouldn't that be grounds for being expelled from the EU and along with it the eurozone? I thought the greek and international capitalists wanted to keep Greece in the euro and force austerity on it? Or have they just gotten this desperate?

I believe the EU will be able to cook up some nonsense about the junta "preserving democracy" from "political extremism". Don't underestimate the bourgeois talent for hypocrisy.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

I don't see how a "European Hugo Chavez" would be anyway beneficial. I mean how is the left wing of capital taking over a bourgeois state in anyway desirable from a marxist perspective?

P.S. Alot can be lost in translation over the internet, but my questions were not meant to sound hostile at all, but merely curious.

I understand.

Its not the leader, the state which we should care about.Its the position of the working class in struggle.Its a somewhat different situation in Greece than in Venezuela.Chavez was impelled by struggle from below. To a large extent this also fit the needs of a segment of the local bourgeois who were seeking an independent development outside of US hegemony.Venezuela is an underdeveloped country held back by imperialism. Anyway, there was and is (considerably weakened) revolutionary process going on in Venezuela.We should understand and engage with it.Chavez both represents the struggle but also holds it back.

Greece is a developed country near the core of capitalism, admittedly on the periphery.The task of Greek society is posed not to find independent path of capitalist development but resistance to a global capitalism in decline.

A European Chavez would represent an important stage in the European working class fightback. It will have to quickly be surpassed of course but it shouldn't be dismissed either.A "European Chavez" would send shock waves throughout Europe and the world.Of course this will just be the opening stage of a long complex process.

Kerensky repressented an improvement over the Czar or Prince Lvov, his hapless regime also set the stage for the worker's revolution later.

Anyway. we'll see what happens, tomorrow afternoon, my time.

[Art Vandelay]

I understand.

Its not the leader, the state which we should care about.Its the position of the working class in struggle.Its a somewhat different situation in Greece than in Venezuela.Chavez was impelled by struggle from below. To a large extent this also fit the needs of a segment of the local bourgeois who were seeking an independent development outside of US hegemony.Venezuela is an underdeveloped country held back by imperialism. Anyway, there was and is (considerably weakened) revolutionary process going on in Venezuela.We should understand and engage with it.Chavez both represents the struggle but also holds it back.

Greece is a developed country near the core of capitalism, admittedly on the periphery.The task of Greek society is posed not to find independent path of capitalist development but resistance to a global capitalism in decline.

A European Chavez would represent an important stage in the European working class fightback. It will have to quickly be surpassed of course but it shouldn't be dismissed either.A "European Chavez" would send shock waves throughout Europe and the world.Of course this will just be the opening stage of a long complex process.

Kerensky repressented an improvement over the Czar or Prince Lvov, his hapless regime also set the stage for the worker's revolution later.

Anyway. we'll see what happens, tomorrow afternoon, my time.

I get what you are saying and I feel like I am slowly moving away from my absolutism of revolution or nothing, but at the same time that line of thinking seems like it could slip into the slippery slope of reformism.

Indeed, tmro should be an interesting day and I have the day off; will be a fun day absorbing myself in the greek election and some political work :D.

[A Marxist Historian]

This doesn't make sense. If there is a military coup, wouldn't that be grounds for being expelled from the EU and along with it the eurozone? I thought the greek and international capitalists wanted to keep Greece in the euro and force austerity on it? Or have they just gotten this desperate?

Does the EU constitution forbid military coups? Probably, but who cares? Certainly not the EU.

A constitution is just a scrap of paper when things get serious. Hey, even now first Bush and now Obama are completely ignoring the Bill of Rights in their "war on terror," and nobody really cares.

The purpose of a coup would have been to, well, keep Greece in the EU and force austerity on it. But this would not have been necessary even if SYRIZA had won rather than lost, as SYRIZA has delusions of staying in the EU and "renegotiating" austerity.

If SYRIZA actually had tried to stop repaying the banks, the EU would just cut out the middle man and make their "loans" directly to the banks rather than the Greek government, and let the Greek government run out of money and stop paying wages and social security--at which point SYRIZA would throw itself on the EU's mercy.

-M.H.-

[Sasha]

http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/1383501-greece-still-splashes-out-billions-defence

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/greece-spends-bailout-cash-european-military-purchases

when you arch enemy is your NATO partner and so are most of your neighbours where are you going to point all those guns towards other than your citizens, dont tell me macedonia...

[A Marxist Historian]

http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content/article/1383501-greece-still-splashes-out-billions-defence

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/greece-spends-bailout-cash-european-military-purchases

when you arch enemy is your NATO partner and so are most of your neighbours where are you going to point all those guns towards other than your citizens, dont tell me macedonia...

Yes, that is a problem. But they could go after Turkey anyway, NATO or no NATO--except that the Turkish army is probably better.

I suppose they could beat Bulgaria...

-M.H.-

[piet11111]

where are you going to point all those guns towards other than your citizens, dont tell me macedonia...

For future NATO gambles like Syria and Iran ?