Fast food, fat profits: Obesity in America [Archive]

Deicide

14th June 2012, 00:06

Have any of you heard of the fat pride movement, what are your thoughts?

Activism concerning the societal acceptance of fat people covers numerous fronts but generally can be described as attempting to alter societal, personal, and medical attitudes.

The movement argues that overweight people are targets of hatred and discrimination, and that obese women are subjected to more social pressure than obese men. Hatred and disrespect towards fat people are seen in multiple places, including media outlets, where fat people are often ridiculed or held up as objects of pity. Discrimination comes in the form of lack of equal access to transportation and employment.

Proponents argue that anti-fat stigma and aggressive diet promotion have led to an increase in psychological and physiological problems among fat people. Proponents of fat acceptance maintain that people of all shapes and sizes can strive for fitness and physical health. They believe health to be independent of, not dependent on, body weight. Thus, proponents promote "health at every size", the philosophy that one can pursue mental and physical health regardless of their physical appearance or size.

The bolded part is fucking ludicrous.

cynicles

14th June 2012, 00:25

Health isn't independant of body weight but body weight does tend to be overly emphasized when their are a plethora of other indicators.

Princess Luna

14th June 2012, 02:28

Have any of you heard of the fat pride movement, what are your thoughts?

The bolded part is fucking ludicrous.
As a skinny person I wholly support it, Contrary to popular believe people who are over-weight can be just as healthy as people who are a normal weight.

Also on the subject of fast food, I fucking hate nanny state (to borrow a term from the right) bullshit, public education is one thing, but attempting to get people to do things like eat healthy by force is treating adults like children.

black magick hustla

14th June 2012, 05:38

i love fast food

black magick hustla

14th June 2012, 05:40

fat people live longer lives btw, according to statistics in the internet that i dont wanan look up

black magick hustla

14th June 2012, 05:43

http://jezebel.com/5072249/study-shows-overweight-women-have-the-most-sex fat women ahve the most sex 2

Os Cangaceiros

14th June 2012, 06:21

I like fast food too, I was blessed with a metabolism that incinerates anything I eat, yet still enables me to gain weight when I want to.

I don't find obesity to be attractive, though. I still remember being a little kid and being in an all you can eat buffett in Florida and watching some middle aged guy, who looked like he was 300 pounds or something, ladeling gravy unto a heaping pile of eggs, all the while sweating profusely. It looked like he was going to have a heart attack.

black magick hustla

14th June 2012, 08:55

i dont find obesity attractive either. some overweight people look really good though, there is even a mexican term for that, "gordibuena". anyway, i am sure some people do find obese people attractive. i posted those one liners because i don't really like the hysteria surrounding "obesity" and it always strikes to me like middle class snobbery of people who practice yoga and eat shitty rabbit food. and i hate those people and in the future revolution my faction will round them all up

Deicide

14th June 2012, 09:09

i love fast food

Then you're fucking scum, and our party apparatus will monitor you 24 hours per day, to make sure you're getting all the rabbit food that's required.

MustCrushCapitalism

14th June 2012, 09:31

i love fast food
Fat pride man. Fat pride.

Then you're fucking scum, and our party apparatus will monitor you 24 hours per day, to make sure you're getting all the rabbit food that's required.
Are you implying that there will not be a McStalin's fast food restaurant after the revolution? D:

workerist

14th June 2012, 10:43

i stopped eating fast food years ago. it is very tasty but addicting. obesity is a huge problem, we shouldn't underestimate it. yea it makes you less attractive but it also kills you. i think there is also an unhealthy "cult of the body" in capitalist societies though. people worship youth and beauty too much and everyone (especially women) are afraid of aging gracefully. of course this makes things a lot more profitable for the plastic surgery&cosmetics industry.

i also hate these liberal namby-pamby groups that sprung up trying to "normalize" obesity like its just another harmless lifestyle option. socialist societies should promote healthy living and exercise but not go to the other extreme and expect everyone to look like olympiads.

Deicide

14th June 2012, 10:55

fat people live longer lives btw, according to statistics in the internet that i dont wanan look up

Major baloney. Provide me with a credible study which suggests that obese people, who eat utter shite, live longer than fit, healthy people, and I'll shut my pie hole.

Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant'

14th June 2012, 11:33

The genie is out fo the bottle I guess, so the concept of tasty, sugary fast food isn't going anywhere. All that cab be done is to promote healthier eating and advise that, tasty as it is, fast food should not really be your primary staple diet. One meal a day maybe. It's not practical or reasonable to force it on anyone, just educate and focus on kids learning the risks of indulging too much in this kind of food (make it less available in schools too; if they really wanna eat it then they can get it themselves or from their parents if they so choose).
Making healthier food more available / cheaper is obviously another big consideration (when I'm faced with the choice of fresh, free-range chicken versus something in breadcrumbs that's half the price, I sometimes can't help but take that cheaper option).
I love it of course but I really try to limit how much I have now and I'll encourage my son to do the same.

black magick hustla

14th June 2012, 11:36

Major baloney. Provide me with a credible study which suggests that obese people, who eat utter shite, live longer than fit, healthy people, and I'll shut my pie hole.

i didnt say "obese",

http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20090625/study-overweight-people-live-longer

black magick hustla

14th June 2012, 11:37

black magick hustla

14th June 2012, 11:40

i also hate these liberal namby-pamby groups that sprung up trying to "normalize" obesity like its just another harmless lifestyle option. socialist societies should promote healthy living and exercise but not go to the other extreme and expect everyone to look like olympiads.

i think "obesity" is different than "overweight" though. a lot of overweight people are pretty normal looking.

NewLeft

14th June 2012, 19:57

The BMI definition changed in 1998 and that made normal weight people overweight overnight.

Sea

14th June 2012, 20:22

As a skinny person I wholly support it, Contrary to popular believe people who are over-weight can be just as healthy as people who are a normal weight.
If that 300 pounds is muscle, sure.

Not if that 300 pounds is fat.

Anarcho-Brocialist

14th June 2012, 20:30

Fast food isn't the blame. It's people consuming too much while remaining idle.

Deicide

14th June 2012, 20:45

BMI is a useless schematic to use for a study. According to the BMI, I'm overweight (I'm 6 foot 4 and 207 pounds), yet my actual body fat percentage is 10%. BMI suggests that practically anyone over 6 foot with a decent amount of lean muscle is ''overweight''.

Contrary to popular believe people who are over-weight can be just as healthy as people who are a normal weight.

A 5 foot 8 inch fat slob tipping the scales at 350 pounds with a shitload of body fat is not as healthy, in fact such a person is not healthy at all (it's utter delusion to suggest so), as a person weighing 180 pounds at 5 foot 8 inches, with a low body fat percentage, and considerable lean mass. That is utter baloney. Among the general health problems that arise from being covered in gargantuan amounts of fat, such as breathing problems, the fatty with all that blubber has increased exposure to developing several serious illnesses. Being a skinny runt isn't healthy either though.

a big mac has like, 500 calories btw. its really not that much, considering a normal caloric intake is 2000-2500. it just adds up with like the bigass coke and fries, its all energy consumption. eating vegan brownies and cookies wont make you necessarily thin

There's more beneficial nutrition in my morning shit than a bigmac.

wsg1991

14th June 2012, 21:28

wsg1991

14th June 2012, 21:33

fat people live longer lives btw, according to statistics in the internet that i dont wanan look up

make no sense fat people are exposed to array of illnesses ,

even if they live long , it would be thanks to heavy medical bills ,

that money could be spent much better , even in a public healthcare

black magick hustla

14th June 2012, 22:06

There's more beneficial nutrition in my morning shit than a bigmac.

why the fuck do you care. nobody is saying your whole diet should be big macs jesus. however, have you ever been shitfaced at 3 am and had a big mac? its like heaven

black magick hustla

14th June 2012, 22:08

f

funny thing that you talk about public healthcare in USA ,
i personally refuse to cover those bastards , since they have higher chances of cardio vascular illness , not because i want to pay less taxes bu
i rather that healthcare budget target more unfortunate people that those fat pride guys ... unless some agreement that they will not be covered for that . that time they can have their fat pride

why the fuck do you care. you know your taxes get used for worse things than treating you know, fat people. like cops, state surveillance, prisons, and the military. in fact you come from motherfucking maghreb where people smoke like chimneys.

Krano

14th June 2012, 22:09

why the fuck do you care. nobody is saying your whole diet should be big macs jesus. however, have you ever been shitfaced at 3 am and had a big mac? its like heaven
No i have never been shitfaced and your so called food disgusts me.

black magick hustla

14th June 2012, 22:10

No i have never been shitfaced and your so called food disgusts me.

again, why do you give a fuck what other people eat? when has the left become a bunch of condescending assholes about dietary choices.

Krano

14th June 2012, 22:20

again, why do you give a fuck what other people eat? when has the left become a bunch of condescending assholes about dietary choices.
I don't care, but that doesn't stop me from saying it to your face.

black magick hustla

14th June 2012, 22:22

I don't care, but that doesn't stop me from saying it to your face.

i think my feces are more intelligent than your so called views doesn't stop me from saying it to your face

kuriousoranj

14th June 2012, 22:25

ladeling gravy unto a heaping pile of eggs

Sorry, gravy and eggs... Together?

And the point is, not that people are wanting to force others to eat healthy, but the current state of many western societies dictates that those who have the least are inversely forced, by their economic situation, to eat unhealthily. Cheap food, certainly here in the UK, is fucking shit. There's something seriously wrong when poverty and obesity are linked.

Krano

14th June 2012, 22:42

i think my feces are more intelligent than your so called views doesn't stop me from saying it to your face
Atleast i don't eat feces like you apparently do.

Deicide

14th June 2012, 23:08

Sorry, gravy and eggs... Together?

And the point is, not that people are wanting to force others to eat healthy, but the current state of many western societies dictates that those who have the least are inversely forced, by their economic situation, to eat unhealthily. Cheap food, certainly here in the UK, is fucking shit. There's something seriously wrong when poverty and obesity are linked.

Obviously the current economic order majorly fucks over poor people in manifold ways, but I'm reluctant to accept this argument.

I'm a poor as fuck student, first generation immigrant, office pen pusher and I live on one of the poorest and crime ridden council estates in England. I still find the time to eat properly, run and lift weights. And I'm not the only one. And it's not exactly expensive to eat properly as compared to eating unhealthily. Fish, vegetables, chicken, green tea, coffee, oats, turkey, fruit, eggs, water (hey, it's almost free and available 24/7), nuts and milk are not ridiculously expensive. If you buy the cheaper brands and from cheaper supermarkets (aldi, for example), it's cheaper than buying ready-made meals, shitty processed pizzas, and so on.

Getting hold of whole food on a dirt poor income is not impossible, it just takes dedication to stick to a healthy diet (which I actually love eating) and routine. Capitalism doesn't force you to shove shit down your throat after you've already surpassed your bodies daily calorie intake. Capitalism doesn't force you to gorge yourself on cakes, chips, crisps, pizza's, kebabs, burgers, fizzy drinks, sweets, etc. Instead of buying a shitty large big mac meal for £5, which will only fill me up for 2 - 3 hours, and will make me feel like utter shit afterwards, instead I could buy brown rice, tuna, and veg, that will last me 2 entire days (the rice will last longer and so will the veg).

wsg1991

14th June 2012, 23:30

why the fuck do you care. you know your taxes get used for worse things than treating you know, fat people. like cops, state surveillance, prisons, and the military. in fact you come from motherfucking maghreb where people smoke like chimneys.

you seem to know little about public healthcare . and i was talking about how the fixed budget to healthcare should be used

in real world , the budget allocation decisions is like choosing who lives and who dies

i refuse that health budget being spent on fat pride people and people who smokes
because that means others might die or get low quality healthcare
i refuse to spend the budget on careless people while letting some guy that had a accident dies , because local hospital don't an Magnetic resonance imaging ,

i rather let those dies than limiting my biochemistry tests options because some of them are too expensive , which might affect my diagnosis

the same money will be better spent on buying new equipment in major hospitals , which can means the difference between life and death for patients who pick up their illness from other than taking careless decisions .

Anarcho-Brocialist

14th June 2012, 23:42

After reading some of the comments, I hint a bit of utilitarianism, which kind of pisses me off! Just saying.

Ele'ill

15th June 2012, 00:00

a big mac has like, 500 calories btw. its really not that much, considering a normal caloric intake is 2000-2500. it just adds up with like the bigass coke and fries, its all energy consumption. eating vegan brownies and cookies wont make you necessarily thin

Vegan pad thai with vegan spring rolls in one sitting, dip, hummus and chips, beer, cigarettes and sci-fi marathons requiring complete inactivity for at least 3 hours straight. Work keeps me fit I really don't know how I'm still alive but I'm def. having fun *in between bouts of depression induced binge drinking of the cheapest bourbon imaginable.

Rafiq

15th June 2012, 03:18

It's food. That's enough for me.. Jesus fuck, it's called exercise and eat your goddamn vegitables. You'll be fine if you stick with that.

kuriousoranj

15th June 2012, 08:25

Obviously the current economic order majorly fucks over poor people in manifold ways, but I'm reluctant to accept this argument.

I'm a poor as fuck student, first generation immigrant, office pen pusher and I live on one of the poorest and crime ridden council estates in England. I still find the time to eat properly, run and lift weights. And I'm not the only one. And it's not exactly expensive to eat properly as compared to eating unhealthily. Fish, vegetables, chicken, green tea, coffee, oats, turkey, fruit, eggs, water (hey, it's almost free and available 24/7), nuts and milk are not ridiculously expensive. If you buy the cheaper brands and from cheaper supermarkets (aldi, for example), it's cheaper than buying ready-made meals, shitty processed pizzas, and so on.

Getting hold of whole food on a dirt poor income is not impossible, it just takes dedication to stick to a healthy diet (which I actually love eating) and routine. Capitalism doesn't force you to shove shit down your throat after you've already surpassed your bodies daily calorie intake. Capitalism doesn't force you to gorge yourself on cakes, chips, crisps, pizza's, kebabs, burgers, fizzy drinks, sweets, etc. Instead of buying a shitty large big mac meal for £5, which will only fill me up for 2 - 3 hours, and will make me feel like utter shit afterwards, instead I could buy brown rice, tuna, and veg, that will last me 2 entire days (the rice will last longer and so will the veg).

That's all very well if you actually know what vegetables are. I find myself in a similar situation to you, and yes, I too manage to eat good food on a meagre income (I live in Stoke on Trent, for what it's worth). However, you can't deny that there are a vast swathe of people who are stuck in a cycle of generational unemployment, poor education, depravity and, because of such factors, obesity and poor health. The mere fact that you can even push a pen sets you apart from the situation of those people.

Your argument smacks of "I made it, so why can't you?", which is a little short sighted, in my opinion. It also doesn't address the correlation between poverty and obesity. Are we saying that lack of motivation, or dedication as you put it, is the reason for those people becoming obese? Shit, maybe that's the reason they're poor too. I also disagree that it's cheaper to eat healthy or fresh food no matter where it's bought from, and that's coming from someone who regularly frequented Aldi's in Ancoats for a number of years, and even then, cost isn't nearly the whole issue.

Princess Luna

15th June 2012, 23:08

fat pride ? lol

first of all obesity is a medical condition and should not be tolerated ,

the fat pride people are similar to any other type of patients happy about their illness and refuse to get treatment

funny thing that you talk about public healthcare in USA ,
i personally refuse to cover those bastards , since they have higher chances of cardio vascular illness , not because i want to pay less taxes bu
i rather that healthcare budget target more unfortunate people that those fat pride guys ... unless some agreement that they will not be covered for that . that time they can have their fat pride

of course , i do respect some obesity cases that where secondary to some medical condition , for instance Hypothyroidism cause obesity
There comes a point where being fat (and being skinny, mind you) starts to have major health effects, but until someone reaches that point (which is far far far beyond that the media portrays most 'fat' people as) who gives a shit, someone who is 50 pounds over-weight shouldn't feel ashamed of their body. People should be happy with who they, rather it is skin color hair color or weight, and shouldn't change merely to fit the definition of 'normal'. That is what i think fat pride means.

Regicollis

15th June 2012, 23:56

I don't believe people eat fast food because they like it. They eat it because it is easy. If I could get a proper meal with real vegetables, spices etc. for the same price and just as easy as I can get some greasy pizza I would choose the real food any day.

I think one of the reason poor people are more obese is that while the rich can afford healthy stuff like sushi whenever they don't want to cook themselves poor people are stuck with cheaper alternatives. I also think that poor people more often experience the "we're too stressed to cook today" situation than rich people who have less stress factors and can afford to have other people do stuff for them.

wsg1991

16th June 2012, 00:50

There comes a point where being fat (and being skinny, mind you) starts to have major health effects, but until someone reaches that point (which is far far far beyond that the media portrays most 'fat' people as) who gives a shit, someone who is 50 pounds over-weight shouldn't feel ashamed of their body. People should be happy with who they, rather it is skin color hair color or weight, and shouldn't change merely to fit the definition of 'normal'. That is what i think fat pride means.

there is a difference between overweight , and obese
obesity is not skin color btw , there is huge difference between the 2 of them

and if you're talking about the media skinny criteria i don't take it seriously , i am talking about the medical one , the percentage of fat ,

someone who has 50 extra pound should not be ashamed of themselves , i agree , but they should be encouraged to get better and HEALTHIER

and i was talking specially about how this obese people ( more than 50 pounds if they are not short ) sucks the healthcare system , which has fixed budget , and that would be on the expense on other people life ,

#FF0000

16th June 2012, 01:08

and i was talking specially about how this obese people ( more than 50 pounds if they are not short ) sucks the healthcare system , which has fixed budget , and that would be on the expense on other people life ,

So, should those obese "bastards" (your words) be denied treatment for heart disease or diabetes?

And people who are 50+ lbs. overweight should be ashamed of themselves?

Because as a dude strugglin' w/ being hella fat, I think that's really interesting to hear someone say that considering how big a hurdle the self-esteem thing is. I know that sounds like some self-help bullshit but the fact is that feeling like shit is pretty fuckin' hard. There's a mental and emotional aspect to weight problems, which I didn't really understand until I actually actively started losing weight. Regardless, the bottom line is, a person shouldn't feel they're a bad person because of their weight. Does that mean they should settle? No. But when it comes to feeling like shit and losing weight, you can only have one. You have to deal with the first to handle the other.

But either way, I don't think fast food alone is the cause for people gaining weight. People are taking in more sugar on average and more calories (~500) than they used to. I honestly have no idea why that is. People talk about the ubiquity of high-fructose corn syrup and all that, and that may very well be the case. I think, though, that education, and most importantly, lack of time are huge factors. I mean, fast food is not cheap. You get more food for cheaper if you go for in-season fruit and vegetables (depending on where you are -- good luck if you live in a broke-ass part of an American city). But it takes awhile to prepare meals from scratch. TV-Dinners, processed foods, microwaveable chicken stuff, on the other hand, is ready in minute and is much easier. That I think, is the bigger factor than price alone, in most cases.

Also people just don't know what the fuck to look for in labels. When I do the grocery shopping, I'm getting leafy vegetables, fruit, whole wheats, skim and soymilk, plain yogurt, lean meat, and sugar-free juices and cereals. When anyone else in my family does it, they go for the same thing but manage to buy sugarloaded yogurt (It's low fat!), white or "honey wheat" bread, sugarloaded "soy" products (It has fruits. That's healthy right?) and lots of the less healthy, more sugarloaded and startchy fruits e.g. bananas, citrus, berries than vegetables, and beef.

Meanwhile I'm the fat one.

But my point is, people have no idea what they're looking for when they're looking for healthy foods.

Hexen

16th June 2012, 01:36

Well I do notice that fast food's original purpose is for people going for a quick meal before going to work (like lunch breaks and such) or stopping by to get something to eat before hitting the road (due to on vacation or whatever) although later on it became a common meal (especially among the lower classes) which is the problem.

#FF0000

16th June 2012, 01:38

NewLeft

16th June 2012, 01:39

The problem is capitalism, really.

wsg1991

16th June 2012, 01:39

So, should those obese "bastards" (your words) be denied treatment for heart disease or diabetes?

i did write an entire explanation about that ,

where i talked about secondary obesity to medical condition ( Hypothyroidism )

then i did explain how budget works , because i knew my first post was not clear enough

if i got a budget to use , people who refuse who are happy with their excessively obesity and not even trying to lose it will not get less spending , ( denied treatment for heart disease or diabetes : your words ) , or in best case putted last in line
that money will be spent on other patients , and might save the lives of others by providing them with better medical care

i am a medical student , i am overweight actually , i gained weight in the last 2 years because i quit Karaté training in order to focus on my studies ,

''bastards'' ( my words) who refuses to lose their weight should be put last in public health priority , so others won't be either denied of their full treatment

also public health heavily rely on prevention because it's much cheaper . losing weight program , as treatement for primary condition weight will be actively applied , to prevent any secondary condition ( cardio vascular \ diabetes) . patients who don't refuses that should assumes the consequence

i also proved to be a lazy bastard , as i should wrote this from the first post to remove any misunderstanding

in a universal healthcare system you would be examined , as your obesity might be secondary to something like dysfunctional Thyroid Gland or genetics then you will be put to diet
if you refuse to comply i have nothing further to offer , unless there a surplus in budget ( which is impossible )

#FF0000

16th June 2012, 01:43

''bastards'' ( my words) who refuses to lose their weight should be put last in public health priority , so others won't be either denied of their full treatment

Except weight loss isn't just something you will yourself to do. Once you deal with the emotional and/or mental baggage that comes along with it. And that is a reality. In fact there was a dude in the news who gained a ton of weight, lost it again, and talked about it. (http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/05/health/drew-manning-fit2fat2fit-lessons/index.html)

Basically what I'm saying is that your premise ("fat people are fat for lack of trying/because they are lazy/because they lack the will to lose the weight") is flawed.

Ele'ill

16th June 2012, 01:48

I remember a thread on this topic where we broke down the various issues and a reoccurring issue was that there actually isn't access to adequate markets in certain areas of cities.

MotherCossack

16th June 2012, 01:53

i agree that capitalism is a big fat part of the problem... it is greedy.... pyscho-greed which denys the existence of a better, healthier way of doing things.... and only sees profit and the degradation of people atall costs......
I have heard that the multi-nationals and fast food giants spend billions.... enough to feed nations with healthy food.... on scientifically manipulating and controlling what we eat.... with the express aim of eradicating our natural ability to recognise the feeling of fullness.
There are labs dedicated to the perfection of fast food as an commodity that we have no power to resist... chemically they are tampering with foods that are readily available .... even enthusiastically promoted.
This situation is horrific......
if the human race does survive these awful times..... I shudder to think what history will make of us all.

Quail

16th June 2012, 22:56

I think one of the problems is that junk food is quicker and easier, and if you're working long hours in a shitty job and have kids to look after, microwave meals probably seem a lot better than making something from scratch. It is very cheap to buy fresh fruit and veg, but generally supermarkets are quite expensive compared to small greengrocers, so if you don't know where to shop, eating fresh fruit and veg might seem expensive.

I don't think that's the whole story though. If you're really poor, you're more likely to suffer from poor mental health and comfort eating is a release for a lot of people. Eating your feelings away is really addictive, so just telling people to eat more healthily and exercise more isn't going to work. I think people judge overweight/obese people as just being greedy and lazy, but I don't think that's the case for most people.

#FF0000

17th June 2012, 21:38

Found a neat thing on ScienceDaily: (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/06/120614131207.htm)

An international team of researchers' study of the spatial patterns of the spread of obesity suggests America's bulging waistlines may have more to do with collective behavior than genetics or individual choices. The team, led by City College of New York physicist Hernán Makse, found correlations between the epidemic's geography and food marketing and distribution patterns.

"We found there is a relationship between the prevalence of obesity and the growth of the supermarket economy," Professor Makse said. "While we can't claim causality because we don't know whether obesity is driven by market forces or vice versa, the obesity epidemic can't be solved by focus on individual behavior."

John222

7th August 2012, 06:52

I think its most likely due to lack of physical activities and not just due to fast foods. Actually both factors have contributed to create such situation, more oily, spicy, and heavy fat foods and lack of exercise and also lack of interest in exercise. The life has become the busiest ever and people hardly get some moments to spend for themselves.

RedHammer

7th August 2012, 08:41

I love fast food too, I'll be honest.

The real problem here is that the healthy food, such as organic and whole foods, is usually priced out of the range of lower income Americans. In fact, where I live, supermarkets such as Whole Foods and Central Market (healthy grocery stores) seem to cater almost exclusively to the middle-class "all-American" crowd. Poorer people have to settle for eating shit.

There's a case to be made that, ultimately, you choose what you eat and if you become obese because you make poor dietary decisions, you're responsible for that. That's true, in a way. But material conditions also dictate the dietary decisions people make; you have to survive, and the poor often have no choice but to turn to processed or fast foods.

Here's the real problem, and a reason why capitalism is absolutely insane. All of this obesity and disease is the basis for the livelihood of the people who profit from treating obesity and dietary disease. These people (Big Pharma and the American health care industry) are licking their lips. It would actually be problematic for their job security and their business if people were healthier.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You know your society is messed up when the continuation of war and disease is actually profitable.

Jimmie Higgins

7th August 2012, 09:21

I'm surprised by some of the "pull yourself up by your bib-straps" arguments in this thread. With this issue being such an increasing problem in the US, with the specific onset of it and so on, it's obvious that something structural is happening to cause this, and not that suddenly people lost the will to buy skim milk.

For poor people in the US, acess to good food is obviously an issue. I think really another part is just the pressure that's been put on the US working class in the neo-liberal era is also a factor. Americans work harder and longer than people in similar countries, have less health coverage, and longer commutes. Hmm, so if you work 40 hours a week, commute for another 10 hours, basically the time you have left is enough to make food watch a TV show and fall asleep - if you pick up food then you save an hour compared to fixing things from scratch and so on. With few breaks and increasing workloads, the amount of caffeine-products has exploded over the last few decades... many loaded with fat and sugar. So I think it's like the US working class is just stressed the fuck out and eating and sleeping bad and not getting exercise and eating comfort food and the result is just more fat people.

Add to that environment, capitalist food production where they've made a science (literally) of empty calorie snacks that leave you hungry again in 20 minutes, the subsidization of corn and so on and you get an "obesity epidemic".

At any rate, as I said in another thread I think really when this comes up, the way to talk about it is as a healthcare problem in the US and a problem with stress and inequality in food and leisure.

citizen of industry

7th August 2012, 10:09

Are you implying that there will not be a McStalin's fast food restaurant after the revolution? D:

Oh, there will be. The workers will take over the McDonald's and run them collectively. The Golden Arches will be removed, but the red square will remain. The Ronald McDonald sitting on the park bench will be toppled, and a more suitable replacement made, like a McTrotsky or McStalin. The playgrounds will be returned. And there will be no more abuse of the workers. Hold the mayo and extra pickles? Piss off. No more bright colored uniforms either. Just coveralls.

Jimmie Higgins

7th August 2012, 10:35

Oh, there will be. The workers will take over the McDonald's and run them collectively.In all seriousness, we will. We'll have their recipes too - the McDonald's french fries formula, all 11 secret Fried Chicken herbs and spices, etc - and can distribute or create these foods any place where food is available. The question I have is: would people decide to make and consume these things once we knew exactly how they're made and what they are made of?

Personally I think people will go for quality - even in treats like ice-cream or things that aren't supposed to be regular food anyway. Maybe they'll keep Doritos.

Vladimir Innit Lenin

8th August 2012, 10:17

Jimmie - surely by the time you drive to the fast-food place, get the food, drive home and eat the mountain of food, you're not saving any time at all?

I'm not sure if i'm being overly UK-centric here because, i'm not being funny, the access to good food (or adequate, fresh food) here is quite good, especially if you live in urban centres. I guess it's slightly different if you live in the country, but then most of the poor tend to live in urban centres, so..!

But seriously, in the UK I have less sympathy for those who are very overweight, simply because - although class clearly plays a factor in terms of lack of education provision, propaganda towards the food corporations and poorer access to healthcare - it strikes me that actually it's cheaper to buy healthy food here and, you know, it takes about 10-15 minutes to rustle up a stir fry of veg and chicken breast.

I don't know if the situation is different in America??

Jimmie Higgins

8th August 2012, 11:05

Jimmie - surely by the time you drive to the fast-food place, get the food, drive home and eat the mountain of food, you're not saving any time at all?No - even if you are driving and not taking public transportation or walking. In many places in Europe, there are more smaller markets - this is less the case, but in the US small markets are very rare - supermarkets are the concentration of food ditribution and part of their business model is to open "big box" stores on cheap land - generally away from or on the outskirts of population areas. There are 5 fast food places and 4 liquor stores within a 15 minute walk of my house and no proper grocers. You have to go past the freeway to get to one - and in suburban California, "other side of the freeway" means what "other side of the tracks" used to mean. The places that specialize in healthy food are even worse - you have to go to the Lake Merritt area (a mostly white part of North Oakland) to get this kind of food (and they have it apleanty, specialty places, vegan places, worker co-op artisan bakeries, farmers markets, etc. Other than that you have to go to Berkeley and if you live in formerly industrial working class West Oakland, the only places to get food like this is in Emmeryville - a part of West Oakland that was all warehouses but has now been turned into miles and miles of big stores because they created a new (low) tax-zone (the "town" of Emmeryville itself) just to make sure that Target and IKEA and Whole Foods don't have a tiny percentage of their profits go, via city taxes, to help fund the schools or programs in this most depressed area of Oakland... uneducated kids make cheaper Target workers.

There are, however, plenty of people who do have cars or do make the trek to get healthier food, there are plenty of people who come home and spend the time fixing a whole meal for them or their family. But then this issue becomes a moral argument. Don't like the arrangement of wage-labor, well there are plenty of people who struggle and find a different path to providing for themselves. So ultimately I think there is something material and structural going on here and the problem isn't on the consuming end (pun intended). Better education IMO is an idealist approach to the problem - as if anyone who is fat just has bad information. Companies obviously try to avoid making any harmful effects of their products known, but it's not like they are putting fat into food for the hell of it. Rather, bad food is made that way mostly for profit-considerations - there are different ways to make food really really tasty and almost addictive than loading things up with salt and corn-syrup... but this is the method favored because of profitability, ability to ship food, and so on. This cheap food is then marketed to people -especially poor people.

Vanguard1917

8th August 2012, 13:01

Weight gain is not caused by 'fast food', but by eating a surplus of calories. You can eat 'healty' food and gain weight. You can eat at McDonald's every day and lose weight.

No - even if you are driving and not taking public transportation or walking.

Isn't America famous for having large supermarkets everywhere with an abundant choice of products? I have difficulty believing that working class Americans don't eat a 'healthy diet' due to a lack of accessibility. And nor do i believe that there is much difference in price between a Big Mac meal and the ingredients for a potato and quinoa salad. Maybe, just maybe, people eat what is deemed 'unhealthy' by the food snobs because they receive greater enjoyment from it.

And meanwhile, of course, despite all this talk of 'obesity epidemic' etc., Americans are living longer and healthier lives than ever before, and their meals have never been more nutritious.

Yes, obesity can be a health problem, but it pales into insignificance when compared to the much more grave issue that faced many Americans not so long ago - food scarcity. The latter is a serious social problem, while obesity can be solved quite straightforwardly through a bit of individual initiative, like eating less calories and exercising more.

Jimmie Higgins

8th August 2012, 14:57

Weight gain is not caused by 'fast food', but by eating a surplus of calories. You can eat 'healty' food and gain weight. You can eat at McDonald's every day and lose weight.Yeah but most workers in the US aren't getting fat on gourmet steak.

Isn't America famous for having large supermarkets everywhere with an abundant choice of products?Yes we all also drive huge SUVs, have all the latest technology, hair which doesn't get mussed in the wind, large McMansions and jobs where we never have to actually go anywhere so when our precocious children get into hi-larious misadventures, we can council them anytime of the day and have a happy ending within 30 including the ads.

OK sorry for the sarcasm-dump. But like I was saying in an earlier post, this part of the process that has IMO added to these issues. Again, Supermarkets aren't for abundance, they are for a business model where food distribution is done in larger and larger stores - one "big box" store is much more efficient for profits than a dozen neighborhood stores because labor is concentrated and reduced and they make shipping deals and so on. This is why liberals hate big-box stores - not because of reduced access but because they cry doves over the loss of little mom and pop shops that happen whenever these stores open. My concern with them is the increased labor exploitation and the reduced access to decent products.

I might be wrong, but I thought people in urban areas in France and the UK tend to grab food for their dinner on their way home each night or every few nights. This is pretty unheard of in the US. Suburban people tend to shop in bulk a couple times a month and travel to outlying areas where the big discount supermarkets are. People in urban areas might go to a neighborhood grocer if they are in a rich or gentrified area, but the local markets are mostly non-existent. In some immigrant neighborhoods there are specialty Asian or Latino markets - but like the boutique markets for the yuppies, these exist because they have a niche that the big stores haven't tapped into as much.

At any rate while I think this is an important structural reason, I also don't think it's the whole story. I think there are other factors such as decreased public space, suburbanization (which means people basically have to drive most places) and personally I think the changes in labor and pressure in the workplace is the lowest common denominator. The neo-liberal era expanded suburbanization, expanded the concentration of wealth so that fast-food places replaces local delis and dinners while Wal-Marts replaced local markets. Work has become longer with less vacations, less pay, and more stress. Again I think the amount of coffee shops and energy drinks (and the frequency that people in the States guzzle this stuff) is also due to the same conditions.

I have difficulty believing that working class Americans don't eat a 'healthy diet' due to a lack of accessibility. And nor do i believe that there is much difference in price between a Big Mac meal and the ingredients for a potato and quinoa salad. Maybe, just maybe, people eat what is deemed 'unhealthy' by the food snobs because they receive greater enjoyment from it.I think people tend to eat it because it's fast and available and cheep.

I'm a total anti-foodie, food politics make me wanna throw up. This is because of just some knee-jerk prejudice on my part against yuppie moralism - I have nothing inherently against eating good food, I just get sick of the people who proselytise it in the US.

But what are all these petty-bourgeois lifestyle food politics really about? It's middle class response to the larger trends I described above. The slow-food movement is a reaction to "the rat race" and grabbing a scone at Starbucks with your coffee for breakfast. Farmers Markets are a yuppie reaction to the lack of local grocers with fresh products as well as to the kinds of bland produce made to ship to supermarkets and sit on shelves for long periods of time.

What bugs me about these politics is the boutique and elite quality of them. White yuppie urban areas react to the effects of capitalism on society by creating food-enclaves rather than, you know, having it so that people in cities can get quality food generally. Part of that ideologically is the idea that poor diet is just "bad information" and if only the poor and suburban were enlightened like urban professionals then the obesity epidemic would be over!

Yes, obesity can be a health problem, but it pales into insignificance when compared to the much more grave issue that faced many Americans not so long ago - food scarcity. The latter is a serious social problem, while obesity can be solved quite straightforwardly through a bit of individual initiative, like eating less calories and exercising more.Induvidual initiative? Yes, poor Americans just got incredibly lazy over the last generation, there are no larger factors at play... pleeease!

Vanguard1917

8th August 2012, 22:44

I might be wrong, but I thought people in urban areas in France and the UK tend to grab food for their dinner on their way home each night or every few nights.

Not really. In the UK, people typically do weekly or monthly shops, either by going to large supermarkets in person or, increasingly, by ordering from them online.

Again, Supermarkets aren't for abundance, they are for a business model where food distribution is done in larger and larger stores - one "big box" store is much more efficient for profits than a dozen neighborhood stores because labor is concentrated and reduced and they make shipping deals (http://www.revleft.com/vb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2492905#) and so on. This is why liberals hate big-box stores - not because of reduced access but because they cry doves over the loss of little mom and pop shops that happen whenever these stores open.

Yeah, the vast majority of anti-supermarket sentiment is basically driven by a petit-bourgeois aversion to mass consumption (and to the masses in general). In reality, of course, supermarkets have had a certain liberating impact for workers, especially female workers, who still mainly bear the burden of shopping, by making buying household goods far less time- and energy-consuming and far more convenient.

Yes, no one should claim that this is the aim of supermarkets, but it has certainly been one of its progressive effects.

My concern with them is the increased labor exploitation and the reduced access to decent products.

Surely supermarkets have increased access to a wide range of products from all over the world?

I think people tend to eat it because it's fast and available and cheep.

And tastier. One thing that is undeniable about advanced capitalist countries today is 'consumer choice'. If people wanted to eat tuna salads, there are many places from where they could purchase them at competitive prices.

Induvidual initiative? Yes, poor Americans just got incredibly lazy over the last generation, there are no larger factors at play... pleeease!

The key factor for an increase in obesity is a lower level of food scarcity. It's a by-product of greater food abundance.

Another key factor is the increase in sendatry lifestyles: a greater prevalence of office and sevice-sector jobs, greater car ownership, children tending to stay indoors more, etc.

But obesity can be solved on an individual level pretty straightforwardly. All that is required is a little bit of will power to stick to a diet of lower calories - exercise isn't even absolutely necessary. Obesity is nothing like the problem of food scarcity and hunger, which cannot really be solved on an individual level but requires social solutions.

laralist123

6th September 2012, 08:36

i agree with you, fast food increase fat and cause several disease.
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fizzy

22nd September 2012, 00:27

I think american people or maybe people around the world are too much into fast food. It's called junk food for a reason coz it really is junk for your body. The excessive intake of chocolates and fizzy drinks might be another cause of obesity but guys alcohol expands you and increase weight too :mellow:

Ele'ill

23rd September 2012, 02:01

Maybe depression because this world is fucking awful has something to do with why people do things that make them feel really good but which might not be exactly good for them. I dunno though.

Regicollis

23rd September 2012, 02:55

I think one of the reasons we have fast food is that we have lost a great part of our food culture because of convenience products and rising alienation towards agriculture because of factory farming. If people ate real food we wouldn't have the same health problems.

However many people doesn't know how to cook and many children grow up with no one to teach them. Because people don't know how to cook they can't cook something decent and fast food then seems like a good option.

Fast food is only tasty because it employs the cheapest tricks in the book - fat and sugar. When you know about real food fast food is bland and boring. When I have been too lazy to cook and we order takeout I always feel greasy and unsatisfied afterwards and begin to fantasise about what I'll cook for dinner tomorrow.

Whereas real food fulfils the mental and æsthetic hunger as well, fast food only fulfils the physical hunger. I think that is why people tend to overeat.

Ready-made and instant products are also detrimental to our health. Try to read the ingredient label on some of these convenience products - it's a fucking horror story. Instead of using the correct ingredients the capitalist manufacturer has maximised his profit by using cheap substitutes and tons of additives. The levels of cheap fats, sugar and salt is through the roof. The manufacturing process of the stuff is also often completely alien to what goes on in a real kitchen. Again this doesn't help our health and alienates us further from our food.

In a socialist society the quality of food is likely to improve. Worker controlled food manufacturers will not be tempted to cheat but will try to make the best possible product by making the real thing. Also when the work day will be reduced people will get more time to do other stuff like cooking and shopping. Finally greater economic equality will mean that those who are poor today will get access to proper food.