US immigrants

[Stain]

So I was having an argument with a nationalist/patriot about US imperialism and the erosion of civil liberties and lack of good social programs compared to the Scandinavian countries. He brought up that if America is so bad, then why do so many people immigrate here? I couldn't quite answer it to my satisfaction and concluded that it's because of this lie of the American dream that's sold globally and also because neo-liberalism and neo-conservatism has eroded every other places and made their conditions so much. It could also be that mainly bourgeois working class migrate here from Asia and the lowers class from central America. What do you all think?

[Blake's Baby]

America is the richest country in the world. Why wouldn't poor people want to go there, if they think they can have a better life? On the other hand, do many people migrate from, you know, successful countries? Like those countries you mention with social welfare programmes. Poor people emigrate to Sweden too. But Sweden doesn't have anything like America's PR machine working for it.

You could try "America - better than some third-world shithole, but not as nice as most of Euorope" and see what the reaction is.

But maybe you could check to see what the figures are for emigration from Europe to the US before you do. I think they're probably fairly low, especially from the 'social-democratic' countries. But best not to rely on my impressionistic take on it.

[#FF0000]

Same reason why so many anime nerds want to go to Japan -- really, really good public relations on the part of Japan that gloss over all the shitty thing about living in Japan.

Same with every country. With America you just hear about "The American Dream" while they peddle the Horatio Alger myth, and people buy it because they're desperate.

[campesino]

Same reason why so many anime nerds want to go to Japan -- really, really good public relations on the part of Japan that gloss over all the shitty thing about living in Japan.

Same with every country. With America you just hear about "The American Dream" while they peddle the Horatio Alger myth, and people buy it because they're desperate.

what is so shitty about living in Japan? i do know the foreigners are treated with much disdain, and heaven forbid you have dark skin. but for the japanese it seems nice. although all i know about japan comes from the idealized version of japan.

[cynicles]

although all i know about japan comes from the idealized version of japan.

Exactly:D

[campesino]

Exactly:D

that's why I am trying to get another perspective. so what sucks about japan?

[Raskolnikov]

First - Read up on both NAFTA's effects on the Mexican Economy as well as their ability to independently produce agriculture goods. Second Read up on Operation Condor - these two things have destroyed what is South American Independence economic and political wise to America.

Plus with many of the states either still suffering from US Imperialism (with Operation Condor - any left-wing regime that either had elected communists or had a left-leaning was overthrown with US backing via CIA. Many if not all the states that arose from the Operation were Fascist-Dictatorships - the common fact of the US handling its 'own backyard'.) or are still Fascist(aka militant right-wing dictatorships) regimes.

This has pretty much ended what could be prosperity for South Americans and Central Americans. Because of this - they have a choice. Stay within the nation, or attempt to go to America, earn some pay and return back home.

But, new case is that there are border patrols and they may be forced to become citizens. Hence they try to go illegally due to it being more efficient (not alot of bureaucratic handling even though the price of transportation via cartels will be likely higher than attempting to head in 'legally'. But it takes shorter of course) and then they are deported merely because they seek to help their families that America fucked up.

Using this argument ultimately makes the US for what it is - a pseudo-Roman Empire. Or just an Empire, take your pick of words.

[MarxSchmarx]

I think the immigration from America is almost all from countries that have it worse than the US - places like India, Mexico, russia, etc... many people from there aspire to immigrate to any first world country, and America is just another one among many.


what is so shitty about living in Japan? i do know the foreigners are treated with much disdain, and heaven forbid you have dark skin. but for the japanese it seems nice. although all i know about japan comes from the idealized version of japan.

Not to get too OT, but Japan has a lot of problems, and is probably on the order of the US/UK rather than the other social democracies in terms of how deeply entrenched capitalism is. 1/3 of workers do not have full time employment, effectively barring them from a lot of the benefits of the welfare system. The housing situation remains a real headache, with dilapidated, frankly third-world housing conditions still quite common. The drug laws are draconian, and it's death penalty system rivals Texas's in terms of its horrors.

Still, there are some things incredibly progressive about Japan - for example, there is a constitutional guarantee to livelihood and a job that was instituted by the "radical" new dealers after the war, the culture of secularism is very strong, and in some respects civil liberties are more respected there than much of the west (with the significant exceptions mentioned above). Except for a few groups particularly from south east asia, I don't think minorities have it much worse in Japan than ethnic minorities do in most countries, although Tokyo is much substantially cosmopolitan than say London.

The idealization many western leftists have about Japan is in assuming that most developed countries resemble western europe in their sensibilities.

[Pretty Flaco]

its generally a lot harder to immigrate to scandinavian countries isnt it?

[#FF0000]

what is so shitty about living in Japan? i do know the foreigners are treated with much disdain, and heaven forbid you have dark skin. but for the japanese it seems nice. although all i know about japan comes from the idealized version of japan.

Yeah and the idealized version's what Japan really tried to push -- and they do a good job of it. The truth is Japan's just as shitty as any other country.

Plus most of the really good Japanese bands never even play there anymore. Never gonna see Boris, Toe, Melt-Banana, or Cibbo Matto at the Tokyo Dome, dogg.

[roy]

i dont even understand the basis of your opponent's argument. just because the US is generally nicer to live in than say, tijuana, doesnt mean it didnt get rich off blood. although there's more opportunity in the US than a lot of other countries, you dont have to dig deep to find out it's easy to get screwed too. if this patriot guy cant tell that there are massive problems within america i dont think there's any getting through.

[workerist]

net migration from mexico hit zero recently. more people are returning to mexico than moving to the US. i just thought that was an interesting statistic. it shouldn't surprise anyone that people from poorer countries want to move to richer countries; just as there is an exploitative relationship between classes in every capitalist society, there is an exploitative relationship between nations. the poorer nations tend to be in the global south and are shaped by the historical legacies of colonialism (which continues in other forms through the IMF/World bank and other financial institutions of modern imperialism)

[Blake's Baby]

its generally a lot harder to immigrate to scandinavian countries isnt it?

Denmark I think has fairly strict immigration laws. Sweden, not so much. 14% of the population was born outside the country - 1.3 million in a country of less than 10 million.

No idea about Finland or Norway.