So I want to ask...

[Hexen]

How far or close we are to Fascism in recent events? Any experts here to tell?

[Peoples' War]

Depends on where you are talking about... Fascism is a reaction to the working class being strong, organized and active.

[Grenzer]

I really don't understand this obsession some people have with fascism. There are plenty of forms of capitalism that are just as bad as fascism, some that are worse. Why choose one historic form to focus on?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I really don't understand this obsession some people have with fascism. There are plenty of forms of capitalism that are just as bad as fascism, some that are worse. Why choose one historic form to focus on?Because it's organized vigilantism against worker movements basically and it can have a big negative impact on workers struggles even when it is just a movement and not officially in power.

As for the original question, there's high polarization right now, but we are not on the verge of fascism. There are many places with dangerous fascist movements though - Greece being obvious, India, many places in Eastern Europe and Russia.

I think we haven't really seen anything yet because workers have only just begun to fight-back and the far-right has, in turn, only begun to try and terrorize us.

[Grenzer]

Because it's organized vigilantism against worker movements basically and it can have a big negative impact on workers struggles even when it is just a movement and not officially in power.

By why focus on Fascism? There are plenty of other things that do that too, such as Stalinism and social-democracy.

In my opinion we should be taking a more dynamic view and be able to recognize new, even more hostile forms of capitalism rather than a specific historic form that was particular to a time and place which has long since passed. I agree that there are certain times when specific attention is indeed warranted towards fascism, but it seems like a lot of times it just makes leftists look like out of touch liberals when they are obsessing over a tiny, marginalized group that in most places has nothing remotely approaching a relevant presence.

[Tim Cornelis]

How far or close we are to Fascism in recent events? Any experts here to tell?

I'd say far away. Though you should probably be more specific given the size of the world.

In North-Western Europe (Netherlands, Germany, Scandinavia, etc.), there is a gigantic social stigma around fascism. The same goes for the United States (even larger than in North-Western Europe), and I presume Canada as well. There is no chance of conventional fascism rooting there. The largest fascist organisation in North-Western Europe is, I think, the National Democratic Party of Germany which has only 13 seats in regional parliaments.

In countries like Russia and Turkey the fascist movement is quite large, but an economic crisis and social collapse has to precede fascism coming to power in those countries--and even then it's unlikely. In Serbia nationalism is rampant, but it doesn't appear that any genuine fascist organisations has any chance of power whatsoever.

In Hungary, Jobbik is quite popular, but as of now no chance of gaining power. And it doesn't appear that this will change soon.

All in all, fascism is a threat insofar they can beat up and harass people in the streets (Roma, migrants, etc.), but not in gaining actual power.

[Prometeo liberado]

By why focus on Fascism? There are plenty of other things that do that too, such as Stalinism and social-democracy.


Really? Is this the end all, be all of evil for a "leftist"? Fight fascism? No, go after a dead guys's legacy once again. Got cancer? Excise the ghost of Stalin from you. No wonder the left is just spinning it's wheels. A thread on the spectre of the fascist threat and all you got to give is "Why focus on Facism?" Then toss in the Stalin thing? Amazing!:rolleyes:

[ed miliband]

Really? Is this the end all, be all of evil for a "leftist"? Fight fascism? No, go after a dead guys's legacy once again. Got cancer? Excise the ghost of Stalin from you. No wonder the left is just spinning it's wheels. A thread on the spectre of the fascist threat and all you got to give is "Why focus on Facism?" Then toss in the Stalin thing? Amazing!:rolleyes:

clue: "stalinism" doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with stalin.

[Prometeo liberado]

clue: "stalinism" doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with stalin.
Really?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Avoid this stalinism is fascism nonsense or I am going straight to infractions for any future offenses.This isn't up for debate either: Marxism-Leninism isn't any form of fascism, period.

[The Intransigent Faction]

By why focus on Fascism? There are plenty of other things that do that too, such as Stalinism and social-democracy.

'Stalinism' and social democracy may be accsed of hijacking workers' movements, but outright organized violent opposition to them? That would tend to be from fascists, by far.


In my opinion we should be taking a more dynamic view and be able to recognize new, even more hostile forms of capitalism rather than a specific historic form that was particular to a time and place which has long since passed.

Long since passed? If only that were true.


I agree that there are certain times when specific attention is indeed warranted towards fascism, but it seems like a lot of times it just makes leftists look like out of touch liberals when they are obsessing over a tiny, marginalized group that in most places has nothing remotely approaching a relevant presence.

Yeah, if only we stopped worrying so much about fascism, bourgeois media would stop accusing us of being out of touch...:rolleyes:. Never underestimate the power of fearmongering---granted fascist groups are, relatively speaking, small and marginal---but then so are we. That doesn't mean that given certain conditions and a certain manipulation of the popular consciousness, fascists cannot garner sympathy for their ideology. That is happening in Europe right now to a degree we shouldn't just ignore and hope it will go away.

Not to say, of course, that social democracy isn't an issue. Those parties are more mainstream and limit the workers' movement to inevitably failing attempts at reform and a "kinder" capitalism. Still, to say that fascism is just a historical form that "has long since passed" doesn't really show an understanding of the conditions in which it is rooted.

[Stain]

It's going to happen sometime this decade according to Chris Hedges. Check out his books American Fascists and the death of the liberal class. We are toast comrades. Might as well go out swinging.

[Ocean Seal]

Fascism is not a thing. Fascism is merely an idealist concept. It does not actually exist. In the weakest sense of the word we can attempt to think of it as a handover of power from the bourgeoisie to the petit bourgeoisie, and an organized dictatorship against working class militancy. This is done by attempted to create a state of class collaboration. Where the proletariat are 'given a bribe' if you will to collaborate with the empowered petit-bourgeoisie and the fearful bourgeoisie.

We are not anywhere close to fascism. In order to be close to fascism we must also be close to communism. For fascism will never exist where there is not a powerful workers movement. As why would the bourgeoisie hand over power to the petit-bourgeoisie if they are not in danger.

[ed miliband]

Really?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

ummm... uh-huh.

i mean, the communist party of britain can be called a stalinist party despite the fact they don't march around with stalin flags like the cpgb-ml. their political line is a highly reformist form of socialism to be implemented in one country at a time. that's stalinism and it's packaged in a way that isn't too different from the labour left.

[ed miliband]

Avoid this stalinism is fascism nonsense or I am going straight to infractions for any future offenses.This isn't up for debate either: Marxism-Leninism isn't any form of fascism, period.

1. who exactly suggested that "stalinism is fascism" in this thread?

2. does the idea propagated by groups like the johnson-forest tendency that state-capitalism represents a particular historical development of capitalism, represented by stalinism, social democracy, and fascism also make you uncomfortable? are we allowed to explore this idea?

3. am i allowed to link to this, by the great german marxist otto ruhle, http://www.marxists.org/archive/ruhle/1939/ruhle01.htm or is it banned material?

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

Fascism is, at least in theory, not the preferred method of coercion of the bourgeoisie because if nothing else, erecting a mass police state program would be terribly expensive in the long run. For a much fuller explanation, see this link: http://marxists.org/history/etol/writers/guerin/1938/10/fascism.htm

It's true that fascism is, in the final instance, a desperate response to a militant and class-conscious proletariat, but I don't believe that's the whole picture. The petty-bourgeoisie, the social base for the "classical" fascist regimes of Europe, could never have been won to their program if it hadn't previously been in a prolonged state of decay and stagnation, as far as living standards are concerned. In other words, they would have to be pauperized as a result of their position in the class struggle, which is to be squeezed between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat. Socialist leadership would also have failed to attract them to its program. Is the petty-bourgeoisie in such a frightful state? Broadly speaking, I can't say. In the case of the United States, I don't think so--at least not yet.

But this notwithstanding, I don't think we should fully relax, either. The US state is by and large sympathetic to fascism and has not hesitated to resort to brutal repression, as can be seen in their kid-gloves treatment of cops who brutalized and harassed Occupy participants. We must be vigilant and not make the mistake of underestimating the possibility of its return, as those fools in the German reformist left did when they declared Hitler to be something of a "passing fad".

I would welcome disagreements on this score, of course. Just please keep it polite, if possible.

Major source of my thoughts here: Fascism and Big Business, by Daniel Guerin

[Art Vandelay]

Avoid this stalinism is fascism nonsense or I am going straight to infractions for any future offenses.This isn't up for debate either: Marxism-Leninism isn't any form of fascism, period.

No one said stalinism was a form of fascism.

[Prometeo liberado]

It's going to happen sometime this decade according to Chris Hedges. Check out his books American Fascists and the death of the liberal class. We are toast comrades. Might as well go out swinging.

Is this the same Chris Hedges who extols the virtue of Law and Order? Who thinks that anything and everything that Black Bloc does is not a form preemptive defense against Fascism? I wouldn't go around quoting Hedges as if he had some crystal ball. This man is a dog.

[Lobotomy]

we should be more worried about global neoliberalism in this day and age.

[Eagle_Syr]

I wouldn't call the United States a Fascist country, although there are elements of Fascism in the structure of American society.

I used to be an ardent supporter of Mussolini's Fascism, so I am well-versed in the ideology and philosophy behind it.