"we need to hunt deer, otherwise they'll overpopulate and starve"

[homegrown terror]

i'm so sick of hearing this argument from sport hunters to justify their bloodsport. yes, if we did away with sport hunting, there'd be more deer, and their food would be scarcer, but in return, a percentage of the deer population would die off in the next few years, after which populations would equalise to a number sustainable within the food supply and environment.

[ВАЛТЕР]

The deer population argument is pretty stupid, but hunting is perfectly okay as far as I'm concerned. Deer meat is good, and you can't get it unless you hunt. The best meat in general is the meat from wild animals. Rabbits, Hogs, Deer, etc.

[homegrown terror]

The deer population argument is pretty stupid, but hunting is perfectly okay as far as I'm concerned. Deer meat is good, and you can't get it unless you hunt. The best meat in general is the meat from wild animals. Rabbits, Hogs, Deer, etc.

a lot of sport hunters (different from subsistence hunters) are primarily out for trophies though, which means they want the biggest deer with the biggest antlers. this kind of hunting leads to a huge gender disparity, which causes a sharp drop in birth rates due to the scarcity of male deer.

[ВАЛТЕР]

a lot of sport hunters (different from subsistence hunters) are primarily out for trophies though, which means they want the biggest deer with the biggest antlers. this kind of hunting leads to a huge gender disparity, which causes a sharp drop in birth rates due to the scarcity of male deer.

Oh you mean the "sportsmen"... fuck the people who just kill an animal to mount its head on their wall when it could feed a family for a month.

[Welshy]

Oh you mean the "sportsmen"... fuck the people who just kill an animal to mount its head on their wall when it could feed a family for a month.

Just because they go out to kill a deer for the trophy, doesn't mean they don't eat it. I'm from an area with a huge sports hunting tradition and the hunters eat most of the deer.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Just because they go out to kill a deer for the trophy, doesn't mean they don't eat it. I'm from an area with a huge sports hunting tradition and the hunters eat most of the deer.

I've heard stories of people doing otherwise. I'm not sure how common it is. I just think if you are going to kill something so tasty, eat it.

[Prometeo liberado]

As sport hunting is such a small part of the overall hunting scene I thinks it is important to make the distinction. This illusion that trophy/sport hunting is fueld by or the catalyst for concern as to the well being of future stock is laughable. The common hunter would argue that killing off the most majestic of any herd will have a profoundly negative impact for years to come. And hunting endagered species on a big game reserve just defies all logic. These people would market gasoline as tonic water if they knew there was a dollar in it somewhere. Take the cash out of the picture and what you have is plain ole regular folk who get enjoyment out of the hunt, and the food they will enjoy after.

[Ele'ill]

To be fair I have several friends who hunt and they hate hunting shows and all that weird hunting culture shit but they do like being out in the woods and in the weather by themselves or with a friend. They like deer meat and don't make too much of a deal of shooting the animal. They don't take trophies.

[Firebrand]

Technically the population argument is valid. Since the wolves got wiped out in england there are no natural predators to keep the population numbers in check and if the deer population gets out of hand it can seriously damage woodland. I don't agree with trophy hunting but in some situations culling really is necessary. Also I think hunting for food is OK as long as it isn't an endangered species.
Oh and gender imbalance is natural for deer herds, many of the males don't get to mate, thats one of the reasons its generally better to hunt stags.

[Coggeh]

Never knew there was such a bloodsport scene on revleft. The argument that its ok hunt if you eat it doesn't stand one when you just ask yourself why not just go down the shops and buy some ? People who use the excuse of hunting for food and not for fun are complete liars simple as in my mind. Why buy a gun and bullets when for a much cheaper cost you can buy meat? why buy a hunting dog and feed it everyday etc to hunt when you could just buy ... meat?.

You hunt for recreation stop hiding it.

[The Machine]

I fish for recreation. Bloodsports are awesome.

[Ele'ill]

Bloodsports are awesome.

What about Capitalism?

[ВАЛТЕР]

Never knew there was such a bloodsport scene on revleft. The argument that its ok hunt if you eat it doesn't stand one when you just ask yourself why not just go down the shops and buy some ? People who use the excuse of hunting for food and not for fun are complete liars simple as in my mind. Why buy a gun and bullets when for a much cheaper cost you can buy meat? why buy a hunting dog and feed it everyday etc to hunt when you could just buy ... meat?.

You hunt for recreation stop hiding it.


Because meat form the wild is much better quality than meat from the store. Plus you can't get deer meat at a supermarket, you have to go and kill a deer. Anyway, why is it a big deal? It's a deer in some forest that is killed to be eaten as well as out of recreation. There are plenty of deer in the world, they wont go extinct anytime soon.

[Welshy]

Never knew there was such a bloodsport scene on revleft. The argument that its ok hunt if you eat it doesn't stand one when you just ask yourself why not just go down the shops and buy some ? People who use the excuse of hunting for food and not for fun are complete liars simple as in my mind. Why buy a gun and bullets when for a much cheaper cost you can buy meat? why buy a hunting dog and feed it everyday etc to hunt when you could just buy ... meat?.

You hunt for recreation stop hiding it.

No one is denying that people hunt because it is fun, but as far as your argument that they could just go to the store and buy the meat, you can't get venison or elk (let alone bear or moose) in a grocery store and you get it from a smaller place those usually, unless there are some small deer farms, which there could be, the meat was from animals killed by hunters. Also at least in Michigan you have to give the heads of elk you kill to the DNR and they use that to test for tuberculosis so they can track it with in the states elk population.

Also this rhetoric of blood sport is nothing but an appeal to emotion logical fallacy.

[Vanguard1917]

I don't see anything wrong with hunting for fun if the animal is not in danger of extinction. Not my cup of tea personally, but to each their own on this matter.

"On Saturday, I went out fox-hunting – seven hours in the saddle... That sort of thing always keeps me in a state of devilish excitement for several days; it’s the greatest physical pleasure I know.”
- Engels in a letter to Marx :cool:

[Tifosi]

i'm so sick of hearing this argument from sport hunters to justify their bloodsport.

I guess it depends on where you live but in Scotland deer shooting is almost always done by professional stalkers who work on the estates. Hunting still takes place but today more people like to see 'Royal' stags out in a glen than on a wall (which is just creepy).

And it's not like they just randomly shot any deer they see. The deer shot are mostly the old and unhealthy ones that are unlikely to get through the winter. Young ones are also shot to keep a healthy mix within the group. Also deer can only be shot at certain times of the year to keep groups healthy. This is so they can breed and so stalkers can find what animals have come out of the summer in poor condition.


yes, if we did away with sport hunting, there'd be more deer, and their food would be scarcer, but in return, a percentage of the deer population would die off in the next few years, after which populations would equalise to a number sustainable within the food supply and environment.

So, in the long run you will have less deer but also less off everything else from plants to frogs. Why not just kill a few deer and save them and everything else?

The deer will destroy the habit of one thing beyond repair (as they have no natural predators to stop them), which in turn will kill off things that depend on that thing and so and on. It will be a disaster on the scale of when we let sheep lose on the hills, whipping out almost all of Scotland's forests.

[The Machine]

What about Capitalism?

not so much

[The Machine]

if you have a problem with hunting and fishing get off the computer and go chain yourself to a redwood or something

[Sea]

It's pathetic that someone would even try to argue that deer are better off starving than dying at their hands.
So, in the long run you will have less deer but also less off everything else from plants to frogs. Why not just kill a few deer and save them and everything else?

The deer will destroy the habit of one thing beyond repair (as they have no natural predators to stop them), which in turn will kill off things that depend on that thing and so and on. It will be a disaster on the scale of when we let sheep lose on the hills, whipping out almost all of Scotland's forests.

People are responsible for the deforestation that led to such a decline in wolf populations and forced deer into locations where they can cause trouble in the first place. We are in turn responsible for our deer problems. Don't try to bullshit me into thinking that causing even more death will make up for this or that it's the "right" thing to do.


I guess it depends on where you live but in Scotland deer shooting is almost always done by professional stalkers who work on the estates. Hunting still takes place but today more people like to see 'Royal' stags out in a glen than on a wall (which is just creepy).So what? Killing is killing weather it's glamorized or not.

if you have a problem with hunting and fishing get off the computer and go chain yourself to a redwood or something
If you have a problem with the "free" market just move to North Korea or something. :cursing:

Are you just choosing to not give a convincing argument in favor of hunting, or do you not have one? Somehow I suspect the latter. Also.. are you sure you know the difference between hunting and logging?

[#FF0000]

i'm more concerned with there being more deer going out on the road and fucking things up tbh

[Yuppie Grinder]

I was vegan for a long time. I now fish and hunt all the time.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Never knew there was such a bloodsport scene on revleft. The argument that its ok hunt if you eat it doesn't stand one when you just ask yourself why not just go down the shops and buy some ?

I've never seen venison at a supermarket...maybe it's just because I haven't been looking, though.

[Dunk]

I understand animals are beings we share the Earth with and we often depend on them, and are generally totally destroying their environments, but I don't think we have any hope of stabilizing biodiversity or the climate while we lack common control of production. Of course, the time for that shit is probably too late in some ways.

I also like meat.

[Kenco Smooth]

i'm so sick of hearing this argument from sport hunters to justify their bloodsport. yes, if we did away with sport hunting, there'd be more deer, and their food would be scarcer, but in return, a percentage of the deer population would die off in the next few years, after which populations would equalise to a number sustainable within the food supply and environment.

"a percentage of the deer population would die off in the next few years, after which populations would equalise to a number sustainable"

What a nice euphemism for slowly starve to death...

Not to mention that a break from equilibrium in a complex system in no way needs to be followed up by a return to equilibrium. The illusion is simply maintained because those species who didn't find equilibrium are all dead and gone.

[Zav]

Maybe if humans didn't kill all the wolves first deer wouldn't have that problem, and they wouldn't be over-grazing (sort of) the land. Humans don't tend to think when it comes to non-human creatures.


I was vegan for a long time. I now fish and hunt all the time.
You're the first to mention veganism. Any particular reason? Saying how often you hunt (fishing is a kind of hunting) would be sufficient, and pertinent, though not really a useful statement.

[#FF0000]

I've never seen venison at a supermarket...maybe it's just because I haven't been looking, though.

I can't find venison here either, and deer hunting is p. big.

[#FF0000]

plus it is way cheaper. the bullet (if you're good apparently you can use a .223 which is p. small and very very cheap) and a little gas to get to and from and you've got like 40 lbs of meat. Maybe more.

[Tifosi]

People are responsible for the deforestation that led to such a decline in wolf populations and forced deer into locations where they can cause trouble in the first place. We are in turn responsible for our deer problems.

I know. I did mention that it was humans letting sheep out onto the hills that destroyed most forested areas. All the deer problems were created by humans, so we can't just run away from it, put our head in the sand and talk rubbish about nature correcting itself. That ain't going to happen, deer will trample every wild flower to death giving the chance and nature won't bring them back.

Also deer haven't been forced into any single place or places. They go everywhere from parks in London to Skye. They are everywhere.


Don't try to bullshit me into thinking that causing even more death will make up for this or that it's the "right" thing to do.

What's the alternative?

Really, by culling a few here in there you will be keeping the overall level of death down.


So what? Killing is killing weather it's glamorized or not.

Well no, all killing ain't the same but the main point I was making is that it's no a 'blood sport'.


Maybe if humans didn't kill all the wolves first deer wouldn't have that problem, and they wouldn't be over-grazing (sort of) the land. Humans don't tend to think when it comes to non-human creatures.

But we did so what you going to do about it?

[Luís Henrique]

What about Capitalism?

Capitalism is not a sport.

Luís Henrique

[#FF0000]

Capitalism is not a sport.

It's a pretty good game, though.

http://i.imgur.com/DZiqj.jpg

[danyboy27]

Population control of certain wild annimal is a valid argument, but it always depend of the region.

In Quebec mauricie i remember years ago they would give special permit to kill a certain species of bird (cant recall the name) that was devasting the local crops.

In newfoundland they are giving out more hunting permits beccause the moose population kill more peoples than ever.
Hit one with a car and chances are you will die.

http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/episode/2011/04/18/newfoundland-moose-cull/

Hunting in itself isnt a bad thing if done properly, commercial hunting is.

There isnt a lot of commercial hunting these day, or at least not has much has it used to beccause its easier to raise a bunch of deer in captivity than running around for circle 10 hours to get 1.

when i was young we had a farm in my town and they did just that; raised deers, sell the hide, antlers, meat and used the rest for other purpose.
It was a local thing tho, the deer where well fed, had plenty of space to move around and they recycled pretty much everything they could from the annimals.

[Coggeh]

I've never seen venison at a supermarket...maybe it's just because I haven't been looking, though.

Dafuq happened to this site while i was away?:mellow:

So because you want some venison you go out of your way to shoot a helpless animal?. In a survival situation i would kill anything to survive but its clear your not exactly in one, how about you do without vension and leave the deer alone? I'm not a vegetarian, i eat meat but i'm not so picky that i would go out of my way for a certain type of meat by killing an animal that wasn't already going to be killed. Thankfully in this country deer hunting is banned.

For people who hunt for fun, why? what is the fun in hunting i really need to know? is it the returning back through time before the advancement of human society that makes you feel like a 'man' or is it watching a helpless animal die for no reason at all but for your sick enjoyment. Why not just play video games instead?

[Coggeh]

In newfoundland they are giving out more hunting permits beccause the moose population kill more peoples than ever.
Hit one with a car and chances are you will die.

Lower speed limits?


The solution of more hunting permits have already shown to be not working, and its not only the moose population increasing but the human one(exponentially) As well as the number of registered vehicles on the road. You can't wipe out the moose population. And even if it was lowering because the human population is rising it will still either maintain the level of collisions and even still increase, you need a different solution. So lower speed limits, improve road lighting at night and encourage awareness on the roads.

http://bolt.lakeheadu.ca/~alceswww/Vol27/Alces27_220.pdf

[#FF0000]

So because you want some venison you go out of your way to shoot a helpless animal?. In a survival situation i would kill anything to survive but its clear your not exactly in one, how about you do without vension and leave the deer alone? I'm not a vegetarian, i eat meat but i'm not so picky that i would go out of my way for a certain type of meat by killing an animal that wasn't already going to be killed. Thankfully in this country deer hunting is banned.

it is cheaper to hunt and I actually sort of trust the meat more.


For people who hunt for fun, why? what is the fun in hunting i really need to know? is it the returning back through time before the advancement of human society that makes you feel like a 'man' or is it watching a helpless animal die for no reason at all but for your sick enjoyment. Why not just play video games instead?

i'm actually not down w/ hunting for sport so.

[Obs]

buncha bullshit
Humans > animals. I really don't understand how anyone could care about animals beyond how they're useful to human beings.


For people who hunt for fun, why? what is the fun in hunting i really need to know? is it the returning back through time before the advancement of human society that makes you feel like a 'man' or is it watching a helpless animal die for no reason at all but for your sick enjoyment. Why not just play video games instead?
Think you might wanna try it before you, y'know, knock it?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Yeah, maybe if we stopped building sprawling suburbs, and destroying the habitats of competition/predators, deer population wouldn't be a problem.

I have nothing against hunting abstractly, but everything against asshole suburban white dudes going out in the "wild" to murder with high powered rifles in order to feel better about their masculinity. May they all be gored by moose.

[Welshy]

So because you want some venison you go out of your way to shoot a helpless animal?. In a survival situation i would kill anything to survive but its clear your not exactly in one, how about you do without vension and leave the deer alone? I'm not a vegetarian, i eat meat but i'm not so picky that i would go out of my way for a certain type of meat by killing an animal that wasn't already going to be killed. Thankfully in this country deer hunting is banned.

First off deer are hardly helpless. When I was younger and walking around at night, me and my friends have been chased off by a buck and that shit was scary. Also there are videos online where a deer has gone up and attacked a hunter quite viciously. Also hunting deer and other animals in a control manner does less environmental damage that how we raised our cows and sheep now a days. So you can keep your factory farm meat and I'll have some better quality venison and elk.



For people who hunt for fun, why? what is the fun in hunting i really need to know? is it the returning back through time before the advancement of human society that makes you feel like a 'man' or is it watching a helpless animal die for no reason at all but for your sick enjoyment. Why not just play video games instead?

Because being outdoors is fun and the challenge of tracking the animals and then finally getting one is rewarding. And again outside of rabbits and birds, the animals are not helpless and could probably kill a person in a fight where your gun is useless. Also if you can't handle the fact that you have to kill the animals you eat then you shouldn't be eating meat in the first place. Since you see to like making a moral argument here, which is worse killing an animal who has lived its life completely free but in an environment where it could die at any moment any ways, or raising animals that are packing in ranches walking around in their own shit to finally be taken to a slaughter house to be put out of their misery? But hey I guess it doesn't matter as long as you don't have to be the one who kills it.

[Welshy]

Yeah, maybe if we stopped building sprawling suburbs, and destroying the habitats of competition/predators, deer population wouldn't be a problem.

That has already happened and no one here is arguing that that was a good thing. But we are faced with that results of that now and we have to deal with the consequences. So stop making this strawman.



I have nothing against hunting abstractly, but everything against asshole suburban white dudes going out in the "wild" to murder with high powered rifles in order to feel better about their masculinity. May they all be gored by moose.

This isn't about suburban white people going out into the woods as from my experience it is more popular in more rural areas than the suburbs. Also people don't do it to prove their masculinity or make themselves feel better. Some may but that isn't the ultimate reason for hunting. People do it because they enjoy the out doors, like eating venison or other game meat, its challenging, and/or its a family tradition that they continue. Also not everyone hunts with a rifle or shotgun. Bow hunting is pretty popular and is some areas, I believe, you can only use a bow. Also some people still hunt with muskets. Also nice last sentence, I'm happy you value human life asshole.

[#FF0000]

doop doop doop idk wat huntin is but heres my opinion anyway

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Hunting is inhumane! Instead of getting our protein content by going out into the wild and directly encountering the creature which gives us its life to feed us, we should fence off some remote plot of land, stuff it with overfed cattle, force-feed them corn, make them live in their own shit, then at some random our truck a bunch of them off late at night to a massive building where they are herded in to get slaughtered, because you know, it is more humane than hunting.

Or we could ban all meat, eggs and dairy and force everyone in the world to change their dietary needs, habits, tastes, and cultural cuisine.

A better idea is that we work on making our agricultural system more humane to animals while managing to sufficiently feed everyone in the world. Of course, hunters need environmental awareness too and need to be conscientious too but there's no reason to take such a sharp moralistic approach to the activity.

[Sea]

What's the alternative?

Really, by culling a few here in there you will be keeping the overall level of death down.Perhaps I was a bit too harsh in my argument, mostly parroting anti-hunting sentiment that I was brought up with.

The more I think about it, the more I think you might be right. I guess I'll have to do some more research..

[Coggeh]

Humans > animals. I really don't understand how anyone could care about animals beyond how they're useful to human beings.

Its called having emotion in fact unnecessary cruelty to animals i.e hunting for fun would be an example is a sign of psychological problem in a child. Have you been checked lately?

[Coggeh]

Perhaps I was a bit too harsh in my argument, mostly parroting anti-hunting sentiment that I was brought up with.

The more I think about it, the more I think you might be right. I guess I'll have to do some more research..
His argument is BS, the same argument can be reversed to defend hunting too.
Argument A) Populations are too high, a little bit of hunting helps
Argument B) Populations are Low, but a little hunting really makes no difference.
Both have already been used in this thread.
Point about it is the tread title has a real element of truth they over populate they starve balance is restored as it were.

[Coggeh]

First off deer are hardly helpless. When I was younger and walking around at night, me and my friends have been chased off by a buck and that shit was scary. Also there are videos online where a deer has gone up and attacked a hunter quite viciously.
Boo....Hoo. A deer about to die because of a hunting looking to have a bit of fun, defends itself and the deer is the dangerous one? :mellow:


Also hunting deer and other animals in a control manner does less environmental damage that how we raised our cows and sheep now a days. So you can keep your factory farm meat and I'll have some better quality venison and elk.My point is not about criticizing your economic or health decision but the very fact that when one hunts for recreation one shows serious signs of (and let me put this as bluntly as possible) psychological problems.




Because being outdoors is fun and the challenge of tracking the animals and then finally getting one is rewarding. And again outside of rabbits and birds, the animals are not helpless and could probably kill a person in a fight where your gun is useless. Why not then if it is fun just track animals maybe catch them with traps and release them,its just as hard just as fun and not stupid and horrible.


Also if you can't handle the fact that you have to kill the animals you eat then you shouldn't be eating meat in the first place. Since you see to like making a moral argument here, which is worse killing an animal who has lived its life completely free but in an environment where it could die at any moment any ways, or raising animals that are packing in ranches walking around in their own shit to finally be taken to a slaughter house to be put out of their misery? But hey I guess it doesn't matter as long as you don't have to be the one who kills it.Yawn. You don't get it. My point is not an anti-meat eating point or anything listen ok. We have to eat meat (well maybe we don't but everyone does anyway so we do) meat is produced for humans in horrible farms blah blah blah and we buy this meat and we eat it. Sounds bad and it is but we do it anyway.
Now what you do(or maybe not you but others) that is different is, go out of your way with some buddies and crack some beers and have big mans time and shoot an animal that most likely would have went on living their nice life but you wanted to have fun and shot it. And there was much rejoicing!

Now whats the difference the difference is: I cannot stop the production of meat, if i stop eating it or i hunt instead meat will still be produced the supply won't even be effected. But what i can do even if i think it might be fun is not go out to a forest and shoot an animal who hasn't done a single fucking thing to me. SEE THE DIFFERENCE NOW!?

[Welshy]

Yawn can you make any argument that doesn't rely on some shitty appeal to emotion.


Boo....Hoo. A deer about to die because of a hunting looking to have a bit of fun, defends itself and the deer is the dangerous one?

The point is that those animals are not helpless and yes all wild animals are dangerous. The way you are talking makes it sound like you have never been around wild animals bigger than a rabbit. Also if you watch the video the deer comes up from behind the hunter so that particular deer's life wasn't in danger and just because you feel the deer was morally right doesn't make them not dangerous in that context. Also people hunt bear and bears are very very dangerous but I guess that doesn't fit into your narrative so you should probably ignore that.


My point is not about criticizing your economic or health decision but the very fact that when one hunts for recreation one shows serious signs of (and let me put this as bluntly as possible) psychological problems.

People hunt so they can eat the animal they kill. They may find the process rewarding and being in nature enjoyable, but by the end of the day the deer they kill will end up cut up and turned into food. I agree that people who kill just for the trophy and don't eat the animal are wrong but to cast all hunters as such and to claim they have psychological problems is not only fallacious but incredibly insulting.


Why not then if it is fun just track animals maybe catch them with traps and release them,its just as hard just as fun and not stupid and horrible.


Because the point is to eat the animal. Just capturing and releasing the animal is fine when you are fishing but can be detrimental to other animals. Some animals will ostracize others who have human scent on them, also when capturing large animals capturing them in traps could maim them and cause a longer slower more horrible death. Shooting them is relatively quick if done correctly.


Now whats the difference the difference is: I cannot stop the production of meat, if i stop eating it or i hunt instead meat will still be produced the supply won't even be effected. But what i can do even if i think it might be fun is not go out to a forest and shoot an animal who hasn't done a single fucking thing to me. SEE THE DIFFERENCE NOW!?

Fine you don't have to hunt, no one is telling you not to, but the thing is don't tell me not to hunt when I do so in a regulated manner making sure me and other hunters don't take more deer than their populations can handle. Also why should it matter if the animal has done something to me or not? The point isn't revenge, the point is to get some venison and challenge myself. Also to your comment just before this part, men aren't the only people who hunt. Sure it is more traditionally a male activity but plenty of women take part in it now a days.

[Welshy]

Its called having emotion in fact unnecessary cruelty to animals i.e hunting for fun would be an example is a sign of psychological problem in a child. Have you been checked lately?

If you are really concerned about animal cruelty why are you fighting factory farms or meat production period? That stuff is much more cruel that hunting. Get off your high horse, hunting is not the same as torturing animals.

[Tim Finnegan]

i'm so sick of hearing this argument from sport hunters to justify their bloodsport. yes, if we did away with sport hunting, there'd be more deer, and their food would be scarcer, but in return, a percentage of the deer population would die off in the next few years, after which populations would equalise to a number sustainable within the food supply and environment.
No it wouldn't. That's total ecological illiteracy. Not only is there no mechanism by which a predatorless deer population would reach an equilibrium with their environment, the merry little death march you propose would involve widespread ecological devastation that would not only prevent deer populations from ever returning in significant numbers, but would fatally wound the prospects of many other species as well. Your plan, if we can call it that, is practically equivalent to solving soil-exhaustion by salting it!

You want some sort of hands-off solution, put some sort of predators back in there. Worked in Yellowstone when they reintroduced the wolves, although I suspect that you'd have a harder time swinging it on a Highland estate. I mean, speaking only for myself, I'd rather take a bullet to the neck in my old age than be torn apart by wolves in my childhood, but perhaps the deer prefer to go the "natural" way...

[Ele'ill]

About the predation issue with deer the obvious irony is that wolves would be the main predator which were hunted/pushed out of their environment however those friends of mine I spoke of earlier who hunt are militantly opposed to hunting for sport or for pelts or whatever like point of tears wraith when the subject of hunting wolves from helicopters and shit comes up fuck that. They hunt to fill the freezer. From what I heard from all of them without any inconsistencies is that during times where shit the deer eat is minimal there are healthy deer gradually starving to death and not getting enough nutrients to survive sicknesses especially combine with the weather. This is not a pro-hunting campaign by any stretch it is a reality that without anything killing these populations off they will continue fluctuate above a normal level with a lot of them suffering and dying off in the winter months. Perhaps there's more to it I dunno this is what friends who I trust have told me.

[DasFapital]

Its like out here in the Northwest states where the rednecks wanna re open hunting of wolves. I guess the trailer trash hate having competition.

[Obs]

Its called having emotion in fact unnecessary cruelty to animals i.e hunting for fun would be an example is a sign of psychological problem in a child. Have you been checked lately?
I'm actually mentally handicapped you rude cumspot of a person. So yeah, I've had extensive contact with authorities on mental health, but turns out not one of them found me psychopathic. Shit, it's almost like you're wildly overreacting to what amounts to harmless recreation.

[Firebrand]

A few points
First of all deer are really very dangerous animals, especially in the autumn which I believe is the main hunting season. They can kill a man with a blow of their hooves even before we get onto the subject of those spiky antlers. We're not talking bambi here. So no hunting deer isn't killing helpless animals, in fact in my experience very few wild animals are truely helpless, considering they've had millions of years of evolution to perfect their defense mechanisms.

Secondly, if the population of any one species gets out of balance it has a knock on effect on the entire ecosystem, deer are one of the more destructive species, along with rabbits and goats, and now that the wolves are all gone (yes wiping them out was a bad idea but whats done is done and it happened a long time ago what we need to do is deal with the situation now not condemn our ancestors for their lack of understanding of modern environmental knowledge.) the population of deer has to be kept under control somehow.

Thirdly, given that as a species we have spent millions of years evolving instincts to kill animals for food, because like it or not we are predators, and it is only in the last couple of hundred years or so that people have really been able to distance themselves from it, it seems a bit silly to say that people who enjoy the feeling of hunting down an animal for food are psychopaths. Theres a big difference between the satisfaction that people get from hunting down their own food and enjoying the suffering of other animals.

[Psy]

Lower speed limits?

The solution of more hunting permits have already shown to be not working, and its not only the moose population increasing but the human one(exponentially) As well as the number of registered vehicles on the road. You can't wipe out the moose population. And even if it was lowering because the human population is rising it will still either maintain the level of collisions and even still increase, you need a different solution. So lower speed limits, improve road lighting at night and encourage awareness on the roads.

http://bolt.lakeheadu.ca/~alceswww/Vol27/Alces27_220.pdf (http://bolt.lakeheadu.ca/%7Ealceswww/Vol27/Alces27_220.pdf)

No because moose are too ignorant of human civilization to let vehicles pass, they will run along the road and may even try to ram the vehicle.

Also what about workers, do you actually expect logging vehicles getting off their shift to go down logging roads slowly? How are heavy trucks suppose to steep climb inclines without running starts? Do you expect emergency response vehicles to go slow through logging roads when a truck flips? Where do you expect to get the electricity to run lights on logging roads?

[Hiero]

Its called having emotion in fact unnecessary cruelty to animals i.e hunting for fun would be an example is a sign of psychological problem in a child. Have you been checked lately?

Well that would be the point of debate "unnecessary cruelty". Even if you are hunting animals for fun there can still an ethical code. Most sport hunting is promoted an ethics system that seeks to minimise unnecessary cruelty. Such principles include : a clean kill with one shot, tracking down wounded animals to your best ability, not over hunting, only shoting the intended target species, fair game (ie not flying around in a helicopter shooting animals, or hunting trained animals).

The unnecessary cruelty would extend beyond thoose ethic. The claim that hunting for sport is overall barbaric and unethical is a social issue not a pyschological one. What you are talking about is little john harming, molesting or killing the family cat. That is taking pleasure in pain, which sport hunting is not about. If you were blasting everything that move, aiming to wound animals and not taking any responsibility then you could say that person has a psychological problem.



First of all deer are really very dangerous animals, especially in the autumn which I believe is the main hunting season. They can kill a man with a blow of their hooves even before we get onto the subject of those spiky antlers. We're not talking bambi here. So no hunting deer isn't killing helpless animals, in fact in my experience very few wild animals are truely helpless, considering they've had millions of years of evolution to perfect their defense mechanisms.

I would add thought that their fist instinct is to flee at the sense of danger, they would only do thoose things if the hunter was in close contact and the deer felt corned. Hence the idea is to shoot them with a high powered rilfe from a distance. Though thoose senses are highly developed and sensitive. Ff you went hiking into a forest where deer a present, chances of seeing a deer is very slim or you might see one from a dinstanc or brief movement.To shot a deer you need to stalk one. So while they are dangerou their defenses are most defensive. At least that is my experience in Australia, maybe in the USA more people get attacked by deer then I am assuming.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

i'm so sick of hearing this argument from sport hunters to justify their bloodsport. yes, if we did away with sport hunting, there'd be more deer, and their food would be scarcer, but in return, a percentage of the deer population would die off in the next few years, after which populations would equalise to a number sustainable within the food supply and environment.

So, either way, deer are going to die, either due to a human bullet in the head or vitals or starvation.

[StalinFanboy]

Never knew there was such a bloodsport scene on revleft. The argument that its ok hunt if you eat it doesn't stand one when you just ask yourself why not just go down the shops and buy some ? People who use the excuse of hunting for food and not for fun are complete liars simple as in my mind. Why buy a gun and bullets when for a much cheaper cost you can buy meat? why buy a hunting dog and feed it everyday etc to hunt when you could just buy ... meat?.

You hunt for recreation stop hiding it.
People have found thrill in hunting since the dawn of time. Humans are predators you know.

[StalinFanboy]

Its called having emotion in fact unnecessary cruelty to animals i.e hunting for fun would be an example is a sign of psychological problem in a child. Have you been checked lately?
Dude, don't go around with this normative bullshit saying people are mentally unstable because they don't fit the behavioral norm. Who determined that this sort of behavior is a psychological problem? When did they determine that?

I'd be willing to bet money that hunting has been considered enjoyable in some way or another, and that this enjoyment has been socially acceptable, far longer than not. Not to mention that absurdity of your comparison, which is quite dishonest, in that hunting for sport (regardless of it being solely for the sake of a trophy or if the meat and other parts are used) is not the same as sociopathy.

Just because you're to weak to be capable of hunting, doesn't mean you gotta moralize about it. ressentiment, bro, check your shit.

[Revolution starts with U]

We need to hunt the bourgeoisie or else WE'LL starve!

;) jk jk :lol:

... or am I :sneaky:

[Bandito]

Just to make it clear. I don't hunt, never did, and I actually don't know anyone who does. I'm not planning on starting either.

I just don't get the argument of some people here - "why hunt when you can buy the meat". Someone had to kill that meat too. Actually, I think keeping animals in captivity in order to kill and eat them eventually seems much more cruel than going out there with a rifle.

The thing is, what I think it's the case here, is that division of animals that pisses me off the most - dividing animals into cute (rabbits, deer, horses, dogs...) and not cute (chicken,pig...). If you eat meat, be fucking consistent about it.

[#FF0000]

pigs are cute as hell

[Kenco Smooth]

pigs are cute as hell

Damn straight!

http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2010/06/PIGLET-IN-BOOTS-02.jpg

More on topic I also don't see how farming animals is somehow more humane than hunting them.

[Fawkes]

Its like out here in the Northwest states where the rednecks wanna re open hunting of wolves. I guess the trailer trash hate having competition.

shut the fuck up

[Fawkes]

i'm so sick of hearing this argument from sport hunters to justify their bloodsport. yes, if we did away with sport hunting, there'd be more deer, and their food would be scarcer, but in return, a percentage of the deer population would die off in the next few years, after which populations would equalise to a number sustainable within the food supply and environment.

Tim Finnegan hit the nail right on the head.

My aunt and uncle live year-round on Fire Island. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_Island) The island is absolutely overrun with whitetail deer whose populations have exploded over the past few decades. There are no predators, natural or otherwise, to the deer living there. The island sports a large array of wildlife and vegetation existing in a very delicate ecosystem (delicate enough that approximately 86% of the island is protected under the National Park Service). That delicate ecosystem is being threatened by the ever-growing deer population. You know what would cause this population "equalization" you refer to? If the deer ate up all of the vegetation they could and eventually started starving to death in large numbers (after of course having destroyed the island's ecosystem). You know who else would start starving to death? All the other species that rely on that ecosystem to survive. So eventually deer populations would stabilize to a size sustainable within the environment, but that environment would be radically changed. I'm not saying this is a good or bad thing, no ecosystems are static, all I'm saying is that the notion that all creatures/plants in an ecosystem live harmoniously and that humans are the only ones capable of pulverizing it is bullshit.

[Coggeh]

I'm actually mentally handicapped you rude cumspot of a person. So yeah, I've had extensive contact with authorities on mental health, but turns out not one of them found me psychopathic. Shit, it's almost like you're wildly overreacting to what amounts to harmless recreation.
I meant no disrespect, i didn't know that and i apologize it was grotesque thing to say. I work in the area of special needs(mainly ASD), which makes my comments even worse. I guess i just got overheated by the thread, just have always been extremely anti-hunting. Anyway again I'm extremely sorry for my comments and would have apologized earlier had i seen this comment before.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

"On Saturday, I went out fox-hunting – seven hours in the saddle... That sort of thing always keeps me in a state of devilish excitement for several days; it’s the greatest physical pleasure I know.”
- Engels in a letter to Marx :cool:
Fox hunting, where dogs do the real work? Engels, you lazy bastard! :lol:

[Prometeo liberado]

"we need to hunt deer, or else they're gonna die!"

[Prometeo liberado]

I don't see anything wrong with hunting for fun if the animal is not in danger of extinction. Not my cup of tea personally, but to each their own on this matter.

"On Saturday, I went out fox-hunting – seven hours in the saddle... That sort of thing always keeps me in a state of devilish excitement for several days; it’s the greatest physical pleasure I know.”
- Engels in a letter to Marx :cool:

He must have had an ugly wife.:crying:

[Obs]

I meant no disrespect, i didn't know that and i apologize it was grotesque thing to say. I work in the area of special needs(mainly ASD), which makes my comments even worse. I guess i just got overheated by the thread, just have always been extremely anti-hunting. Anyway again I'm extremely sorry for my comments and would have apologized earlier had i seen this comment before.
Yeah alright, that's fair.

[#FF0000]

"we need to hunt deer, or else they're gonna die!"

no see they will die from starvation otherwise. from eating nearly all of the vegetation.

all of it

imagine what that will do to the ecosystem.

itt 'environmentalists' don't know how to biology

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Here in the UK we have six species of deer, and no surviving natural predatory macrofauna. this results in occasional overpopulation problems (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/ecology/3463388/500000-deer-must-be-culled-to-protect-countryside-from-damage-by-herds.html).

With increasing urbanisation, it seems likely that this kind of shit can only get worse. Not only are humans very good at pushing out other predators, but we also produce a lot of food waste and other crap that presents an easy meal for wild animals.

I've never hunted, but I'd like to do so some day. I think comments along the lines of "people who enjoy hunting are (possibly) sick in the head" are particularly unhelpful. Was humanity mostly insane before the advent of agriculture?

[GallowsBird]

Well I'd likely never hunt unless I had to (for a start I only believe in hunting for food and I am a vegetarian so...) but I am pretty sure it is more humane to hunt and kill an animal that has lived a healthy free life quickly with a bullet than fence one in somewhere fill it with chemicals and then boil it alive just to be served up in bad fast food "restaurants" to the morbidly obese. That is something I never understand, people complaining about hunting animals when the alternatives are far worse. In this regard I don't see anything particularly wrong with hunting.

I find trophy/sports hunting to be rather pathetic and most huntsman of the ilk that hunt for sport seem to, almost universally, be stunted man-children who want to look tough by killing creatures even weaker than themselves... though in my country hunting for pleasure is almost soley the habit of ultra-rich ultra-aristocratic layabouts.