Does Germany have Worker Ownership of the Means of Production ?

[tradeunionsupporter]

Does Germany have Worker Ownership of the Means of Production ?

Codetermination in Germany

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Codetermination in Germany is a concept with a solid history that involves the right of workers to participate in management of the companies they work for. Known as Mitbestimmung (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Mitbestimmung), the modern law on codetermination is found principally in the Mitbestimmungsgesetz (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Mitbestimmungsgesetz) of 1976. The law allows workers to elect representatives (usually trade union representatives) for almost half of the supervisory board of directors. The legislation is separate from the main German company law Act for public companies, the Aktiengesetz (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Aktiengesetz). It applies to public and private companies, so long as there are over 2000 employees. For companies with 500-2000 employees, one third of the supervisory board must be elected.
There is also legislation in Germany, known as the Betriebsverfassungsgesetz (http://www.revleft.com/w/index.php?title=Betriebsverfassungsgesetz&action=edit&redlink=1), whereby workers are entitled to form Works Councils (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Works_Councils) at local shop floor level.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codetermination_in_Germany

Co-determination

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Co-determination is a practice whereby the employees have a role in management of a company. The word is a literal translation from the German word Mitbestimmung. Co-determination rights are different in different legal environments. In some countries, like the USA (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/USA), the workers have virtually no role in management of companies, and in some, like Germany (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Germany), their role is more important. The first serious co-determination laws began in Germany. At first there was only worker participation in management in the coal and steel industries. But in 1974, a general law was passed mandating that worker representatives hold seats on the boards of all companies employing over 500 people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination

Industrial democracy

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Industrial democracy is an arrangement which involves workers making decisions, sharing responsibility and authority (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Authority) in the workplace. While in participative management (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Participative_management) organizational designs (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Organizational_design) workers are listened to and take part in the decision-making (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Decision-making) process, in organizations employing industrial democracy they also have the final decisive power (they decide about organizational design and hierarchy (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Hierarchy) as well)[1] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#cite_note-shopfloor_democracy-0).
In company law, the term generally used is co-determination (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Co-determination), following the German word Mitbestimmung. In Germany half of the supervisory board of directors (which elects management) is elected by the shareholders, and the other half by the workers.
Although industrial democracy generally refers to the organization model in which workplaces are run directly by the people who work in them in place of private (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Private_sector) or state ownership (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/State_ownership) of the means of production (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Means_of_production), there are also representative forms of industrial democracy. Representative industrial democracy includes decision making structures such as the formation of committees (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Committees) and consultative bodies to facilitate communication between management (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Management), unions (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Trade_union), and staff (http://www.revleft.com/wiki/Employee).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_democracy

[Tim Cornelis]

Co-determination =/= democracy. So no.
Co-determination means that workers have a say in some general affairs (wages, etc.). But daily governance of the workplace is controlled by the capitalist and managers. The workers can give suggestions to the capitalists on how to run, but power is not in their hands.

EDIT:

Co-determination, which exists throughout Western Europe (Spain, Netherlands, Germany, etc.), is much like Syrian democracy. Half or more than half of the board of directors (those with power) are capitalists or bosses who attained their position undemocratically, and the other half is elected by the workers democratically. Syrian parliament works the same, a little more than half of parliament are the ruling party who attained their position undemocratically, the other half of parliament is elected by the people.

It's not real democracy.

[Baseball]

Co-determination =/= democracy. So no.
Co-determination means that workers have a say in some general affairs (wages, etc.). But daily governance of the workplace is controlled by the capitalist and managers. The workers can give suggestions to the capitalists on how to run, but power is not in their hands.

EDIT:

Co-determination, which exists throughout Western Europe (Spain, Netherlands, Germany, etc.), is much like Syrian democracy. Half or more than half of the board of directors (those with power) are capitalists or bosses who attained their position undemocratically, and the other half is elected by the workers democratically. Syrian parliament works the same, a little more than half of parliament are the ruling party who attained their position undemocratically, the other half of parliament is elected by the people.

It's not real democracy.

Are you seriously citing the Syrian Parliament as, at least half, having been elected by the "people"? Would you conclude that the Cuban legislature is more "democratically" elected than Syria, since their congress is elected entirely by the "people"?

[Tim Cornelis]

Are you seriously citing the Syrian Parliament as, at least half, having been elected by the "people"?

No. First, more than half the seats in parliament are reserved for the ruling party, that's why it's a farce democracy. Second, there is widespread fraud.

In 2007:


The number of seats reserved for the parties in the National Progressive Front was increased to 170 from 167, decreasing the seats for independents to 80 from 83.

The point of my analogy/comparison was exactly to show that such an arrangement where more than half of the seats in a decision-making body are reserved is not democratic.

If Germany has workers' control over production, then Syria is a genuine parliamentary democracy.


Would you conclude that the Cuban legislature is more "democratically" elected than Syria, since their congress is elected entirely by the "people"?

I don't see what Cuba has anything to do with anything.