Vote KKE! No Vote to Syriza! [Archive]

A Marxist Historian

8th June 2012, 20:16

This leaflet from the Trotskyist Group of Greece is posted on the website of the International Communist League (Spartacist), in both Greek and English. I think it is a very good statement and I fully agree with it.

http://spartacist.org/greek/critsupkke.pdf
http://spartacist.org/english/leaflets/votekke.htm

The article “Banks Starve Greek Working People” from the Spartacist press is also available on the Spartacist website in both English and Greek, at

http://spartacist.org/greek/banksstarve.pdf
and http://spartacist.org/english/wv/1002/greece.html

-M.H.-

************************************************** **************************************************
5 June 2012

Trotskyist Group of Greece Says: Vote KKE! No Vote to Syriza!

The following is a translation of a leaflet being distributed by our comrades in Greece.

The Greek section of the International Communist League (Fourth Internationalist) calls on workers, minorities and all opponents of capitalist austerity to vote for the candidates of the Greek Communist Party (KKE) on June 17. The central issue for the working class in Greece today is rejection of the devastating attacks dictated by the troika [the European Union (EU), the European Central Bank and the International Monetary Fund] and imposed by the Greek bourgeoisie. A massive vote to the KKE—which opposes the EU—would deliver a slap in the face to the imperialists and their Greek lackeys and could give a boost to the defensive battles of workers across Europe.

The KKE rightly stands against Syriza’s perspective of keeping “Greece in the EU and NATO and the capitalist relations of production untouched” (KKE Web site, “Between Two Tough Battles,” 23 May). Despite intense pressure for unity, the KKE has rejected Syriza’s appeal to form a “left” (bourgeois) government. Syriza stands in favor of the imperialist EU and the euro, while claiming it can “renegotiate” the austerity package.

As proletarian internationalists, we oppose the imperialist EU on principle (as well as the single currency) as part of our perspective for the Socialist United States of Europe. A socialist society cannot be achieved within the borders of Greece alone.

The KKE correctly notes that the central force within Syriza, the “Coalition of the Left” (SYN), voted for the Maastricht Treaty of 1992, is a supporter of the EU and “joined the anti-communist campaign against the USSR” (“Between Two Tough Battles,” 23 May). Today, the pseudo-Trotskyist groups who also hailed counterrevolution in the Soviet Union—including the Socialist Workers Party (SEK) and Xekinima—place themselves to the right of the KKE, whom they denounce for rejecting Syriza’s call to join them in government. We say: Down with the EU! No vote to Syriza!

Our call for a vote to the KKE in this election is an application of the tactic of critical support outlined by Lenin in “Left-Wing” Communism—An Infantile Disorder in 1920. While supporting KKE candidates, we have fundamental differences of program. Our program is proletarian, revolutionary and internationalist. In contrast, the KKE panders to Greek nationalism, the chief obstacle to building a revolutionary party in Greece. Their perspective of “people power” liquidates the proletariat—the only class with the power to overthrow capitalism—into “the people” and obscures the class line, the central division in capitalist society. The KKE’s populism—expressed as “the people” against “the monopolies”—is counterposed to the class independence of the proletariat from the bourgeoisie.

The violent racist attacks on immigrants by rampaging mobs of Chrysi Avgi (Golden Dawn) fascists pose the urgent need to mobilize contingents of workers to defend immigrants and to sweep the fascist vermin off the streets. The KKE has the social weight in the trade unions to do this, but its nationalist populism is a barrier to it.

Rather than mobilizing workers and immigrants against Golden Dawn, which represents a threat to the whole of the organized working class, the KKE appeals for votes from among the same backward layers of the population who voted for the fascist scum, demanding: “The working people who voted for Golden Dawn must correct their vote” (KKE Press Office statement, 2 June).

The KKE admits that: “During the 1950’s and 1980’s, the KKE formed ‘left’ alliances” and claims that it “has drawn valuable conclusions from its experience regarding the policy of alliances and it does not intend to repeat similar mistakes” (“Between Two Tough Battles,” 23 May). These were not mistakes but betrayals that flow from their Stalinist program. Despite the KKE’s refusal to participate in a coalition government at the present time, they have not broken politically with the program that led them to join bourgeois governments in the past.

Our international tendency actively fought, to the limit of our resources, for defense of the Soviet Union against counterrevolution. We also stood for a proletarian political revolution against the Stalinist bureaucracy, whose politics of “socialism in one country” and of “peaceful coexistence” with imperialism undermined the defense of the USSR and ultimately led to the triumph of counterrevolution in 1991-92, a defeat for the world’s working masses.

With this call to vote for the KKE we are mass-distributing the article, “Banks Starve Greek Working People” [Workers Vanguard No. 1002, 11 May], to introduce to a wider audience our broader political views. We seek to coalesce into a political formation those forces who agree with the politics expressed there.

Sasha

8th June 2012, 20:41

A Marxist Historian

10th June 2012, 07:06

because instead of voting for a party that will sell out the workingclass for reformism the workers should vote for a party that will never get any power but if they would would still sell out the workers and give them breadlines on top....

if i was greek i would advocate burning down the poling stations, but since i'm not i'm not going tell them what to do from my relatively comfertable western-european position...

The KKE says it's for socialism, revolution and leaving the capitalist EU.

Tsipras says he will end austerity and renegotiate the debts with the masters of the EU without leaving it, and maybe that might be a first step toward socialism in the sweet bye and bye, but meanwhile let's form an anti-austerity coalition government. Reformist pie in the sky, feh.

I don't disagree with your assessment of what the KKE is liable to actually do if elected, their historical record is pretty clear. But I think it's worthwhile to vote for socialism and revolution, as I'm sure a lot of the rank and file workers who support the KKE take that red rhetoric we're getting from the KKE lately seriously. Let's help them learn from experience how well the KKE puts its money where its mouth is.

And the KKE is not just a fly-by-night coalition of this, that and the other thing like SYRIZA, but a serious working class party deeply rooted in the history of the Greek working class, with an entire trade union federation supporting it, moreover the trade union federation everybody knows is the most militant.

Boycott? Well, right now the Greek workers are taking these elections very very seriously. Not the time for a boycott, since you have a serious candidacy at least mouthing a lot of the right words.

-M.H.-

Sea

10th June 2012, 07:42

Yes, comrades

Vote.

Voting is clearly the most revolutionary answer. Clearly.

Let people tell you who to vote for. And then vote! Because utilizing and relying upon the very government infrastructure that we're fighting against is the truly the greatest way to abolish it.

Hiero

10th June 2012, 08:20

if i was greek i would advocate burning down the poling stations
Then voila as much working class power that you stuff your faces with.

Qavvik

10th June 2012, 10:28

Sasha

10th June 2012, 17:07

The KKE says it's for socialism, revolution and leaving the capitalist EU.

Tsipras says he will end austerity and renegotiate the debts with the masters of the EU without leaving it, and maybe that might be a first step toward socialism in the sweet bye and bye, but meanwhile let's form an anti-austerity coalition government. Reformist pie in the sky, feh.

I don't disagree with your assessment of what the KKE is liable to actually do if elected, their historical record is pretty clear. But I think it's worthwhile to vote for socialism and revolution, as I'm sure a lot of the rank and file workers who support the KKE take that red rhetoric we're getting from the KKE lately seriously. Let's help them learn from experience how well the KKE puts its money where its mouth is.

And the KKE is not just a fly-by-night coalition of this, that and the other thing like SYRIZA, but a serious working class party deeply rooted in the history of the Greek working class, with an entire trade union federation supporting it, moreover the trade union federation everybody knows is the most militant.

Boycott? Well, right now the Greek workers are taking these elections very very seriously. Not the time for a boycott, since you have a serious candidacy at least mouthing a lot of the right words.

-M.H.-

what right words? given no other choice i rather have liberal-capitalist-democracy-in-the-eu than state-capitalist-"socialism"-in-one-country...
and clearly the majority of the greeks do to so its all a non-discussion, as long as the KKE tries to conquer power through the ballots its a failed project that keeps on failing every harder every election further away from 1949. when the KKE lost the civilwar they lost the future, that much should be clear by now.

A Marxist Historian

10th June 2012, 23:37

what right words? given no other choice i rather have liberal-capitalist-democracy-in-the-eu than state-capitalist-"socialism"-in-one-country...
and clearly the majority of the greeks do to so its all a non-discussion, as long as the KKE tries to conquer power through the ballots its a failed project that keeps on failing every harder every election further away from 1949. when the KKE lost the civilwar they lost the future, that much should be clear by now.

Well, if you think capitalism is the lesser evil and "socialism in one country" is worse, then I suppose that makes sense. I s'pose you'd have supported Yeltsin in 1992? The Russian people had "liberal capitalist democracy" shoved down their throats, and hate it with a passion. The working class standard of living got cut in half, and millions of people died. They are unfortunately too demoralized to do much about it, which is what often happens after counterrevolutions.

Then there's next door Yugoslavia, which really, really benefitted from getting rid of Tito's version of what you call "state capitalism." Especially the Bosnians...

Yes, the KKE lost the civil war. Most Greeks think and have thought for a long time--they do Gallup polls on that frequently--that this was a bad thing, Stalinism or no Stalinism. You're quite wrong if you think Greeks love capitalism, they've seen all too much of it. The only reason Greeks are afraid of leaving the EU is that Greece is such a small and weak country, they don't think it can stand on its own economically. And they are basically right. Greece, even more than most countries, desperately needs for revolution to spread after it happens.

I have no faith in the KKE, none whatsoever, but they are saying that socialism is the answer and revolution is the way to get it. No other significant force in Greece (the anarchists basically are not really significant) is saying that.

The way to create a really revolutionary force in Greece is for the best worker militants of the KKE and its militant trade union federation to realize that their leaders don't have the answers, that they have to break with Stalinism. Now while the KKE is running a red campaign, it's the time to give them critical support, so real revolutionaries can communicate with them.

-M.H.-

Tim Finnegan

10th June 2012, 23:39

Vote KKE! No Vote to Syriza! Fixed that for ye.

Geiseric

10th June 2012, 23:54

Lenina Rosenweg

11th June 2012, 00:04

Peoples' War

11th June 2012, 00:35

The greek's need a vanguard party to grow organically out of the struggle. A new party. Not the old reform-Stalinist KKE, or "Coalition" SYRIZA.

11th June 2012, 00:52

The greek's need a vanguard party to grow organically out of the struggle. A new party. Not the old reform-Stalinist KKE, or "Coalition" SYRIZA.

Greece is exactly the case that shows why vanguard mass party-movements don't just magically appear during such a (semi-)revolutionary situation; It is exactly the case that the working class will be drawn to established forces. Hence why SYRIZA got an immense boost.

The lacking factor is indeed a political program that poses an alternative to capitalism. But I gather this fight can best be fought in SYRIZA. The sectarian and nationalist position of the KKE is highly unhelpful and needs to be overcome. A single united party-movement can come into existence, but has to be trans-European in character and will take years to build, time we might not have.

Die Neue Zeit

11th June 2012, 01:54

Greece is exactly the case that shows why vanguard mass party-movements don't just magically appear during such a (semi-)revolutionary situation; It is exactly the case that the working class will be drawn to established forces. Hence why SYRIZA got an immense boost.

The lacking factor is indeed a political program that poses an alternative to capitalism. But I gather this fight can best be fought in SYRIZA. The sectarian and nationalist position of the KKE is highly unhelpful and needs to be overcome. A single united party-movement can come into existence, but has to be trans-European in character and will take years to build, time we might not have.

Comrade, you should have just dropped the parentheses around "semi-."

I see SYRIZA as a bourgeois worker party, but in the mold of an inter-war SPD without its anti-communist "Democratic Front" antics. The KKE is also a bourgeois worker party, despite its pretensions.

Note to OP: I still await a History or preferrably Theory discussion from you on "workers governments."

Sasha

11th June 2012, 02:14

Well, if you think capitalism is the lesser evil and "socialism in one country" is worse, then I suppose that makes sense. I s'pose you'd have supported Yeltsin in 1992? The Russian people had "liberal capitalist democracy" shoved down their throats, and hate it with a passion. The working class standard of living got cut in half, and millions of people died. They are unfortunately too demoralized to do much about it, which is what often happens after counterrevolutions.

Then there's next door Yugoslavia, which really, really benefitted from getting rid of Tito's version of what you call "state capitalism." Especially the Bosnians...

Yes, the KKE lost the civil war. Most Greeks think and have thought for a long time--they do Gallup polls on that frequently--that this was a bad thing, Stalinism or no Stalinism. You're quite wrong if you think Greeks love capitalism, they've seen all too much of it. The only reason Greeks are afraid of leaving the EU is that Greece is such a small and weak country, they don't think it can stand on its own economically. And they are basically right. Greece, even more than most countries, desperately needs for revolution to spread after it happens.

I have no faith in the KKE, none whatsoever, but they are saying that socialism is the answer and revolution is the way to get it. No other significant force in Greece (the anarchists basically are not really significant) is saying that.

The way to create a really revolutionary force in Greece is for the best worker militants of the KKE and its militant trade union federation to realize that their leaders don't have the answers, that they have to break with Stalinism. Now while the KKE is running a red campaign, it's the time to give them critical support, so real revolutionaries can communicate with them.

-M.H.-

they already broke ages ago with stalinism, they are euro-communists in everything but name. the biggest problem with the KKE is that they have their heads so stuck up in the begone days of the industrial revolution & fordism, you are doomed when your path to revolution is A. the ballot box where you are promising the workers worse reformism than the other parties and B. conquest of the factory's through your union in a country where over 60% of the population works in the service industry and 10% is unemployed.
its just pathetic honestly

11th June 2012, 10:21

Comrade, you should have just dropped the parentheses around "semi-."

Well, I was being cautious, because:

1. a regime hostile to the people;
2. a party of irreconcilable opposition;
3. mass support given to the party;
4. a regime crisis of confidence.
While there is a party that is more or less standing on "irreconcilable opposition" and has certain mass support, its program is surely a limiting factor. It tries to change society through parliament as opposed to mass working class education, agitation and organisation.

But yes, it is certainly a revolutionary situation besides that reservation.

REDSOX

11th June 2012, 10:56

If i was a greek citizen i would vote for Syriza warts and all because that is the only realistic choice at the moment. The KKE and their sectarian position has led to their support ebbing and they have no chance of winning anyway. The choice in this election is Syriza warts and all with their six point plan and Conservative New democracy and more neo-liberalism. Vote Syriza!!!

LuÃs Henrique

11th June 2012, 13:21

Neither SYRIZA nor the KKE are "bourgeois parties" by no means. They are both reformist working class parties.

Reformism is a proletarian ideology; if we can't realise that fundamental truth, we cannot fight against reformism in any significant way.

The main difference between KKE and SYRIZA atm is that SYRIZA embodies all the popular delusions about the political situation, while the KKE holds delusions peculiar to itself, that do not resonate with the Greek masses at all. This is the reason they failed in May 6th, and this is the reason they will fail June 17th.

"Not voting" would hand ND/PASOK the electoral victory they need to impose austerity measures, and represent the brutal political repression such measures imply as the result of the "popular will". Contrary to what the petty bourgeois prejudice holds, voting does make a difference, especially when and if real issues are under discussion.

If I was in Greece, I would probably vote SYRIZA; if I had a group of activists in Greece, we would probably call for a critical vote for SYRIZA, pointing out that it is not possible to keep Greece in the UE and overturn austerity measures at the same time, and pointing also to the fact that the Greek crisis has no "Greek solution", it demands an international revolutionary process (or conversely, an international counter-revolution).

And of course, this means that the left in the rest of Europe should be demonstrating against the strangling of Greece. Where are the anti-Germans when we need them?

Luís Henrique

Die Neue Zeit

11th June 2012, 14:16

^^^ "Continental bourgeois worker party" would still be a good term to describe both of them, though.

Well, I was being cautious, because:

While there is a party that is more or less standing on "irreconcilable opposition" and has certain mass support, its program is surely a limiting factor. It tries to change society through parliament as opposed to mass working class education, agitation and organisation.

But yes, it is certainly a revolutionary situation besides that reservation.

Actually, comrade, I was making the contention that there is no independent mass party-movement of the class to speak of in Greece, let alone one with such program and with majority political support (again, above mere "mass support").

I mean, just look at the class background of Tsipras himself (something about his family owning a construction company)!

Agathor

11th June 2012, 15:39

If I was Greek I would vote for New Democracy. Because whoever wins the election will have to preside over Greece's flaming crash out of the Euro and will probably be reduced to a minor party at the subsequent election. If New Democracy win, they will probably form a coalition government (collective suicide pact) which will collapse in disgrace in a few years, after which, SYRIZA will be the only party left.

Agathor

11th June 2012, 15:45

I mean, just look at the class background of Tsipras himself (something about his family owning a construction company)!

Ditto Lenin, Che, Marx, Engels, Orwell, Russell, Bakunin, Kropotkin....

Welshy

11th June 2012, 17:02

God this forum is such a fucking joke sometimes, KKE is a fucking joke, and there is nothing wrong with SYRIZA's anti austerity program, WHICH involves nationalizations of major industries, a massive re-negotiation of the debt which WILL catapult greece into fascism if it's not dealt with.

They aren't calling for nationalization of major industries. They are calling for the nationalization of banks and the re-nationalization industries that were privatized during the austerity programs. Pro-capitalists have called for the nationalization of banks before even in the US, so that can hardly be considered a socialist action and neither can the re-nationalization process as that would just get them back to pre-crisis level nationalization (they weren't near a revolution then were they). Also you use of fascism is a misuse of the term, you would think a trotskyist would understand the historical role of fascism given that Trotsky wrote a lot about.

Calling for leaving the EU is opportunism, plain and simple, and it won't solve greece's nor europe's problem. i'd like to hear what's to be done when there's no investments going into KKE controlled still capitalist greece. Reformism doesn't at all describe Tsipras's plan

Quite frankly yes it does. They seek to end the crisis by instituting reforms, that is by definition a type of reformism. There is nothing revolutionary or "transistional" about their program, all of there demands are complete possible with in capitalism. The fact that you can't see that shows that you and your group have long caved into blind support for reformism thanks to your conception of a transitional program.

anybody who's crawled out of their hole to read it will see that it (the plan) will most likely result in greece being expelled from the EU if its anti capitalist nature is imposed, and eventually to revolution if it's denied by EU

If the anti-austerity candidates elected recently in europe gain are successful enough, you might see a change in whether or not these policies would get greece expelled. Capitalism is a much more fluid and adaptive system that you give it credit. I mean it survived the great depression and quite frankly the policies advocated by post-WWII social democrats were more radical than this and those countries are still capitalist aren't they?

Geiseric

11th June 2012, 17:55

Geiseric

11th June 2012, 19:26

And i should have phrased that better, I meant the furthering of the crisis and the failure of the socialists to seem as an alternative means that the masses of greek people will go towards golden dawn, as the liberal capitalists fail to solve the crisis.

FSL

11th June 2012, 19:32

They aren't calling for nationalization of major industries. They are calling for the nationalization of banks and the re-nationalization industries that were privatized during the austerity programs
They're not calling for any nationalizations for the time being because "we don't have any money".
Of course, they'll probably -at least I hope so- be the government in a week from now and we'll all see what they're really planning to do.

I need to see an example of when pro capitalists want to nationalize the banks
It's what happened in the UK and Spain. It also happened in the 70s and 80s by New Democracy and Pasok governments in Greece. Probably it has happened countless times in countless countries.

You nationalize a private company when it's bankrupt, take care of the mess by adding all their losses to your public debt and after a few years, when the prospects are better, resell them.
Right now we've agreed on a loan from the EU, out of which 50 billions will go to the banks to do just that.

black magick hustla

11th June 2012, 20:06

Neither SYRIZA nor the KKE are "bourgeois parties" by no means. They are both reformist working class parties.
this is all, of course very peculiar. they might be "sociologically working class", but of course, if they take power they will be managers of capitalism.

"Not voting" would hand ND/PASOK the electoral victory they need to impose austerity measures, and represent the brutal political repression such measures imply as the result of the "popular will". Contrary to what the petty bourgeois prejudice holds, voting does make a difference, especially when and if real issues are under discussion.

so you think syriza won't impose austerity measures? what kind of magical trickery will they be able to do to avoid that? especially when remaining in the EU?

how is that a "petit bourgeois" prejudice?

Welshy

11th June 2012, 20:19

I need to see an example of when pro capitalists want to nationalize the banks, the most radical kenyesian Roosevelt didn't even do that.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123517380343437079.html

From the article:

Last Sunday on ABC, George Stephanopoulos asked Lindsey Graham, the conservative Republican senator, what he thought about all this talk of bank nationalization. Mr. Graham said that he wouldn't take the idea off the table. And on Wednesday, Alan Greenspan told the Financial Times that "it may be necessary to temporarily nationalize some banks in order to facilitate a swift and orderly restructuring."
Mr. Roubini tells me that bank nationalization "is something the partisans would have regarded as anathema a few weeks ago. But when I and others put it in the context of the Swedish approach [of the 1990s] -- i.e. you take banks over, you clean them up, and you sell them in rapid order to the private sector -- it's clear that it's temporary. No one's in favor of a permanent government takeover of the financial system."

There's another reason why the concept should appeal to (fiscal) conservatives, he explains. "The idea that government will fork out trillions of dollars to try to rescue financial institutions, and throw more money after bad dollars, is not appealing because then the fiscal cost is much larger. So rather than being seen as something Bolshevik, nationalization is seen as pragmatic. Paradoxically, the proposal is more market-friendly than the alternative of zombie banks."

if you abandon transitional demands whose success or failure revolution rests on, you abandon the working class. There is no fervor for overthrowing capitalism, a KKE Syriza united front government will show the greek working class the power they have. Engels also warned against the fruitlessness of anti-electoralism. He said that "us communists are leaping bounds by staying in the framework of bourgeois law," -Class Struggle in France 1848.

The problem is that you haven't given any reason why we should think that these are 1. transitional demands and 2. why the success or failure of a revolution depends on them. You forget that reforms have a duel nature to them. Sure they can be useful for improving the conditions of the working class and, if we accept your position, may help strengthen the working class leading to revolution, but they also have been used as a way of reducing or eliminating militant class struggle. To see clear examples of this look at the rise of the social democrats in Europe. With out realizing this you will fall time and time again into the failed tactics the left has been using for the past 80+ years.

Also how is an Engels quote from well over 100 years ago about the political situation in Europe relevant to us now a days. Capitalism is much stronger economically and politically than it was back them, and if you think the political situation hasn't change enough so that what was said back then about political tactics applies to now then I'm just baffled by you.

These "reforms," are the only choice the working class has, revolution would be ultra left at this point, and will be untill the greek working class is desperate, and see voting in the bourgeois government as a useless mean to enforce their will, however electing a majority socialist government would even further the revolutionary ambitions of greece against capitalism.

If fighting for revolution is ultra-left then I am glad to be ultra-left. As I have said before you are proving yourself to be nothing more than a left wing social democrat for you support of SYRIZA and its reformist program. No matter how much leftist rhetoric you dress it up with doesn't change the fact your tactics are reformist. Also what is this bullshit about the reforms are the only choice that the working class has? They are the only choice we are going to keep ourselves in the confines of capitalism, but that is not our role as communists. If we were to continue with this logic then the workers only choice in the US is the democrats so we should be entering them to try to push them left and make them institute reforms that favor the working class.

FSL

11th June 2012, 20:29

Last Sunday on ABC, George Stephanopoulos asked Lindsey Graham, the conservative Republican senator, what he thought about all this talk of bank nationalization. Mr. Graham said that he wouldn't take the idea off the table. And on Wednesday, Alan Greenspan told the Financial Times that "it may be necessary to temporarily nationalize some banks in order to facilitate a swift and orderly restructuring."
Mr. Roubini tells me that bank nationalization "is something the partisans would have regarded as anathema a few weeks ago. But when I and others put it in the context of the Swedish approach [of the 1990s] -- i.e. you take banks over, you clean them up, and you sell them in rapid order to the private sector -- it's clear that it's temporary. No one's in favor of a permanent government takeover of the financial system."
Dragasakis, who is sort of the de facto leader of the "rightist faction" within Syriza and as everyone's guessing our next minister of economics should Syriza win, spoke exactly of this "swedish approach" in one of his interviews.

Τι θα κάνετε με την ανακεφαλαιοποίηση των τραπεζών;

«Τα 50 δισ. ευρώ που προβλέπεται να καταβληθούν για την ανακεφαλαιοποίηση και διάσωση του τραπεζικού συστήματος, με το έναν ή τον άλλον τρόπο, θα επιβαρύνουν το δημόσιο χρέος και εξ αντικειμένου τίθεται θέμα για δημόσιο έλεγχο των τραπεζών. Πρέπει να συζητήσουμε τον τρόπο που θα γίνει ο δημόσιος έλεγχος, ώστε να αποφευχθούν φαινόμενα του παρελθόντος. Εμείς προκρίνουμε κάτι κοντά στο σουηδικό μοντέλο, όταν η χώρα κρατικοποίησε τις τράπεζες, τις τροφοδότησε με κεφάλαια, τις εξυγίανε, τις κατέστησε κερδοφόρες και τις πούλησε σε ιδιώτες».
http://www.tovima.gr/afieromata/elections2012/article/?aid=457442

Translated:

What will you do regarding the recapitalization of banks?
"The 50 billion euros to be granted to recapitalize and rescue the banking system, with one way or another, will be added to the debt and objectively the issue of public control of the banks is raised. We should discuss how to implement the public scrutiny to avoid phenomena of the past. We opt for something close to the Swedish model, when the country nationalized banks, recapitalized them, cleaned them up, made them profitable and sold them to individuals. "

Sinister Cultural Marxist

11th June 2012, 20:42

Really all this talk about "Reformism/Revolution" and"Bourgeois party/Workers party" seems overly simplistic, perhaps due to its obvious appeal to dualism. Sometimes its hard to tell whether parties are either/or, and they are usually a bit of both. The winds of history also have a habit of forcing movements to adopt political positions more radical than their initial agenda, like in Cuba for instance

Jolly Red Giant

12th June 2012, 01:15

Wow - the Sparts attack SYRIZA - big surprise there :rolleyes:

A Marxist Historian

12th June 2012, 02:13

God this forum is such a fucking joke sometimes, KKE is a fucking joke, and there is nothing wrong with SYRIZA's anti austerity program, WHICH involves nationalizations of major industries, a massive re-negotiation of the debt which WILL catapult greece into fascism if it's not dealt with. Calling for leaving the EU is opportunism, plain and simple, and it won't solve greece's nor europe's problem. i'd like to hear what's to be done when there's no investments going into KKE controlled still capitalist greece. Reformism doesn't at all describe Tsipras's plan, and the sparts are simply jealous that larger trotskyist groups (along with larger workers organizations) work with SYRIZA. Anyways, I want to hear something specific about SYRIZA's plan that prooves these claims of reformism. anybody who's crawled out of their hole to read it will see that it (the plan) will most likely result in greece being expelled from the EU if its anti capitalist nature is imposed, and eventually to revolution if it's denied by EU

KKE a joke? The oldest party in Greece, with its own trade union federation, by far the most militant of the three? And an actual membership much, much larger than SYRIZA's? And a quite significant eight percent of the vote a few weeks ago?

What's wrong with SYRIZA's anti-austerity program? That it is an anti-austerity program, not a program for socialist revolution.

Does SYRIZA call for nationalizing all sorts of things? Well, so did the British Labour Party till Clause Four was abolished, and so did that of the SPD until Bad Godesberg in the late fifties. Were they revolutionary parties?

I don''t know when the French SP dropped nationalizations from its program, probably not till the eighties when Mitterand was Prez.

The foundation stone of the EU is "free market economics," it's right there in the EU constitution. You can't really be a socialist if you want to stay in the EU, it's one or the other.

You think that SYRIZA's program will get it expelled from the EU? Well, if it's actually implemented, but social democratic, nonrevolutionary parties never implement their programs when elected.

And so what if it might get them expelled, something Tsipras has been denying every time asked? SYRIZA doesn't want to leave the EU, and continually asserts that its program can be implemented without leaving the EU, which they oppose. If they are wrong, or lying outright, that is not a good reason to vote for them.

Why vote for the KKE? Because the KKE is calling for workers revolution, not parliamentary reform. The KKE leaders can't be trusted to be sincere, but if you're not a sectarian, given that quite large numbers of workers support the KKE, you put it to the test so that the revolutionary-minded workers voting for the KKE can learn that through their own experiences.

-M.H.-

A Marxist Historian

12th June 2012, 02:27

Why doesn't the KKE make a comradely critique of Syriza-instead of merely slamming them as reformist sell outs? Also instead of "vote for KKE, No To Syriza, how about a KKE and Syriza united front?Yes, Syriza isn't great but they currently represent the vanguard of the worker's struggle. Didn't the Bolsheviks critically support Kerensky against the right with the slogan "Down With The Ten Capitalist Ministers"? Obviously getting rid of the "10 capitalist ministers" wasn't going to make the Provisional Government socialist, but that slogan was a way of moving class consciousness forward.

The KKE is a worker's movement, but they are sectarian, don't work well with others, and judging by voting results, many members of their union, PAME, aren't voting for them. There is not much hope for "real revolutionaries communicating with them".

http://greekleftreview.wordpress.com/2012/06/09/syriza-proposal-the-exit-from-the-crisis-on-the-left/

Actually, no, the Bolsheviks didn't support Kerensky at the ballot box, they never called for voting for him. As Lenin put it, "we don't support Kerensky, we expose his weakness."

And then he went on to say, to make sure nobody missed the point, "we support Kerensky in the same fashiion a rope supports a hanged man." Vs. a right wing military coup, not in an election!

If a SYRIZA coalition government with a liberal capitalist party were actually formed, and you have dual power with soviets in Greece with a SYRIZA majority, then an slogan like "down with the capitalist ministers, all power to the soviets" could be appropriate. But then that's not exactly what is going on yet in Greece, now is it?

Why on earth would we want a KKe-syriza united front? The main purpose of united fronts is to expose the reformists and enable the workers to move from the reformists to the revolutionaries. At best, such a united front might benefit the KKE vs. SYRIZA, which is not the point, as the KKE is not a revolutionary party. At worst, vice versa. Either way, that creates a barrier to real revolutionaries.

Actually, the Spartacist call for a united front with the KKE on election day is exactly the Leninist way to use the united front tactic. Its purpose is to help the workers supporting the KKE who don't want to support SYRIZA, because they agree with their leaders that SYRIZA is reformist and they want to be revolutionaries, realize that the KKE is not the revolutionary party, by putting the KKE into parliament where it will, I assume, not act like the revolutionary party it's currently claiming to be.

And if it does, well then mazeltov to the KKE, but I'm not holding my breath.

-m.h.-

Die Neue Zeit

12th June 2012, 02:27

Ditto Lenin, Che, Marx, Engels, Orwell, Russell, Bakunin, Kropotkin....

Lenin and Che were lawyers, Marx and Orwell journalists.

Die Neue Zeit

12th June 2012, 02:38

I need to see an example of when pro capitalists want to nationalize the banks, the most radical kenyesian Roosevelt didn't even do that. if you abandon transitional demands whose success or failure revolution rests on, you abandon the working class. There is no fervor for overthrowing capitalism, a KKE Syriza united front government will show the greek working class the power they have. Engels also warned against the fruitlessness of anti-electoralism. He said that "us communists are leaping bounds by staying in the framework of bourgeois law," -Class Struggle in France 1848. These "reforms," are the only choice the working class has, revolution would be ultra left at this point, and will be untill the greek working class is desperate, and see voting in the bourgeois government as a useless mean to enforce their will, however electing a majority socialist government would even further the revolutionary ambitions of greece against capitalism.

You might wish to look into Louis Kelso's The Capitalist Manifesto (here's a blog on the book (http://christopherwroth.blogspot.ca/2010/01/trusteeship-and-binary-economics.html)), 19th-century Georgism, and left republicans in the US and France. Together, they actually show the out-and-out bankruptcy of "social democracy" on the progressive ownership reform question since WWI.

Just because politicians have yet to put stuff into practice doesn't mean the measures are "transitional."

LuÃs Henrique

12th June 2012, 02:49

so you think syriza won't impose austerity measures?

If they do so, they will be clearly breaking with their mandate; for they are being voted to put an end to austerity measures, and I would expect their government to be very brief. If ND and PASOK win and impose austerity measures, they will not be breaking with their mandate; they will be indeed be fulfilling their mandate, because they will be voted exactly to impose austerity measures. And I would not expect their government to be especially brief, but I would expect it to be particularly violent.

what kind of magical trickery will they be able to do to avoid that?

That's their problem, isn't it?

The problem of the Greek ruled classes is to keep in the streets and make sure no government will impose austerity measures and be able to stay in charge.

especially when remaining in the EU?

Well, I don't know what is so special about the EU. The Greek people want to remain in the EU; if we believe that it is impossible for Greece to remain in the EU and repeal the austerity measures, then at some moment this has to be made clear. And only the EU can actually make that, by pointing to a Greek government mandated to put an end to austerity measures that the EU will not have Greece any more unless austerity measures are imposed. Then it seems logical that the Greeks will either accept austerity measures, or realise that remaining within the EU is impossible.

how is that a "petit bourgeois" prejudice?

Why are we discussing the Greek elections?

Luís Henrique

black magick hustla

12th June 2012, 12:14

If they do so, they will be clearly breaking with their mandate; for they are being voted to put an end to austerity measures, and I would expect their government to be very brief. If ND and PASOK win and impose austerity measures, they will not be breaking with their mandate; they will be indeed be fulfilling their mandate, because they will be voted exactly to impose austerity measures. And I would not expect their government to be especially brief, but I would expect it to be particularly violent.
:shrugs: politicians, from left to right, always break promises. I think the scenario you present is farfetched. I think any govt. today is in greece is in a particularly precarious position, didn't the prime minister step down, after all? I don't see how PASOK vs SYRIZA would change that in any way.

The problem of the Greek ruled classes is to keep in the streets and make sure no government will impose austerity measures and be able to stay in charge.
I don't see how different parties will change this. in fact, I would imagine that if a "left wing" party wins, there is more opportunity of recuperation and to "clean the streets", which has always been the role of the left wing of capital, actually. (I think "left wing of capital" is a better term than "right wing of the workers' movement).

Well, I don't know what is so special about the EU. The Greek people want to remain in the EU; if we believe that it is impossible for Greece to remain in the EU and repeal the austerity measures, then at some moment this has to be made clear. And only the EU can actually make that, by pointing to a Greek government mandated to put an end to austerity measures that the EU will not have Greece any more unless austerity measures are imposed. Then it seems logical that the Greeks will either accept austerity measures, or realise that remaining within the EU is impossible.
I don't really think that KKE's "socialism in one country" stalinist fantasy of self sufficiency is possible in any way either. I think both parties would end up imposing austerity, anyway. I hate the KKE, and honestly, in a very superficial level, I prefer syriza because KKE has a history of extreme violence against dissidents.

Agathor

12th June 2012, 14:01

Lenin and Che were lawyers, Marx and Orwell journalists.

And Tsipras is, or was until a few weeks ago, the leader of a small left wing political party. You were talking about his background and his family. Engels' was bourgeois, and Marx's was middle class -- his family owned vineyards. Even if this mattered -- and really it is brilliantly unimportant -- I can't find anything opulent about Tsipras' upbringing, and I bet the press would mention if they had found any. The only indicator of his family's class that I've found is that he appears to have gone to a state school. Which excludes him from the propertied classes.

Dunk

12th June 2012, 14:39

Vote NOBODY! No Vote to ANYBODY!

Seize control of production commonly! Revolt against this mode of production and it's organizational forms entirely!

Igor

12th June 2012, 14:42

Vote NOBODY! No Vote to ANYBODY!

Seize control of production commonly! Revolt against this mode of production and it's organizational forms entirely!

it's nice to have slogans! instead of politics though

Dunk

12th June 2012, 14:51

it's nice to have slogans! instead of politics though

Fucking yawn

The Greek state isn't going to have anything to do with communism. If either of these parties come to power they can only act in a social democratic role, managing capitalism. If you argue that they should participate in the elections to secure the immediate marginal relief a more social democratic manager might bring, you're arguing for reformism.

The Douche

12th June 2012, 15:03

Fucking yawn

The Greek state isn't going to have anything to do with communism. If either of these parties come to power they can only act in a social democratic role, managing capitalism. If you argue that they should participate in the elections to secure the immediate marginal relief a more social democratic manager might bring, you're arguing for reformism.

If this is your position, thats fine, but please argue your positions as opposed to making one liner posts comprised of slogans.

Thanks.

LuÃs Henrique

12th June 2012, 15:13

:shrugs: politicians, from left to right, always break promises. I think the scenario you present is farfetched. I think any govt. today is in greece is in a particularly precarious position, didn't the prime minister step down, after all? I don't see how PASOK vs SYRIZA would change that in any way.

Of course any government in Greece will be in a precarious position. But a vote for ND would be the first premise of overcoming that from a pro-capital standpoint.

The former PASOK government wasn't elected on a mandate on austerity - which wasn't anyway an actually clear issue in 2009. Give a mandate to ND, and it will suppress popular dissent, or fail to do it in a way that will give credence to parties further to the right. Give a mandate to Golden Dawn, it will transform Greece into an outright dictatorship as soon as possible, outlawing everything from KKE to LAOS and SYRIZA to ND.

I don't see how different parties will change this. in fact, I would imagine that if a "left wing" party wins, there is more opportunity of recuperation and to "clean the streets", which has always been the role of the left wing of capital, actually. (I think "left wing of capital" is a better term than "right wing of the workers' movement).

Labour is the left wing of capital.

You don't want to see how different parties will change this, which is a different issue; and you refuse to see it because it contradicts your preconceived notions of how things work.

Again, why are we discussing the Greek elections? Do you think we would be discussing them if New Democracy and/or PASOK had won a clear majority in May 6th?

I don't really think that KKE's "socialism in one country" stalinist fantasy of self sufficiency is possible in any way either. I think both parties would end up imposing austerity, anyway. I hate the KKE, and honestly, in a very superficial level, I prefer syriza because KKE has a history of extreme violence against dissidents.

In the completely unlikely eventuality that KKE could win elections/form a government, it would impose "austerity" no doubt. It would just be a very different kind of austerity than that the EU tries to impose; it would be Stalinist-like austerity. Vote for bread queues, they are actually a good thing!

The difference between KKE and other leftist parties in Greece, again, is that those other parties share popular delusions about the situation; the KKE clings to its particular delusions, that no one else shares (well, maybe some of the 0.1%-of-the-vote parties such as KKE-ML, OAKKE, EEK or OKDE, but I don't see how this would change anything at all), which leaves them in isolation, and consequently irrelevant to the immediate political future of Greece and Europe.

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

12th June 2012, 15:15

Vote NOBODY! No Vote to ANYBODY!

Seize control of production commonly! Revolt against this mode of production and it's organizational forms entirely!

Else Dunk will not be happy, and you know what happens when Dunk is not happy.

Luís Henrique

Dunk

12th June 2012, 16:09

Else Dunk will not be happy, and you know what happens when Dunk is not happy.

Luís Henrique

Perhaps another questionable ban/purge by the overzealous administrators, another venture into theoretical wonderland by DNZ, more self proclaimed communists and anarchists arguing for electoral politics, or just a signed snarky comment by Luis Henrique?

DUNK

Lev Bronsteinovich

12th June 2012, 16:11

The Nationalization of failing banks and industries usually comes in the form of a huge gift to the bourgeoisie. Critical support to the worker's party that has at least a rough class line is called for here -- that would be the KKE. Again, with absolute and intense criticism for any and all of their actions that don't move the proletariat forward. Fuck the EU. It is a vehicle for the domination of German and French capital over the rest of Europe.

The Douche

12th June 2012, 16:18

Perhaps another questionable ban/purge by the overzealous administrators, another venture into theoretical wonderland by DNZ, more self proclaimed communists and anarchists arguing for electoral politics, or just a signed snarky comment by Luis Henrique?

DUNK

Maybe my last post wasn't clear enough. Please stay on topic, refrain from one-liners/sloganeering, and consider this a verbal warning. Thanks.

LuÃs Henrique

12th June 2012, 16:40

Perhaps another questionable ban/purge by the overzealous administrators, another venture into theoretical wonderland by DNZ, more self proclaimed communists and anarchists arguing for electoral politics, or just a signed snarky comment by Luis Henrique?

More likely...

...absolutely nothing.

Luís Henrique

A Marxist Historian

13th June 2012, 00:06

If they do so, they will be clearly breaking with their mandate; for they are being voted to put an end to austerity measures, and I would expect their government to be very brief. If ND and PASOK win and impose austerity measures, they will not be breaking with their mandate; they will be indeed be fulfilling their mandate, because they will be voted exactly to impose austerity measures. And I would not expect their government to be especially brief, but I would expect it to be particularly violent.

That's their problem, isn't it?

The problem of the Greek ruled classes is to keep in the streets and make sure no government will impose austerity measures and be able to stay in charge.

Well, I don't know what is so special about the EU. The Greek people want to remain in the EU; if we believe that it is impossible for Greece to remain in the EU and repeal the austerity measures, then at some moment this has to be made clear. And only the EU can actually make that, by pointing to a Greek government mandated to put an end to austerity measures that the EU will not have Greece any more unless austerity measures are imposed. Then it seems logical that the Greeks will either accept austerity measures, or realise that remaining within the EU is impossible.

Why are we discussing the Greek elections?

Luís Henrique

Luis, what you fail to realize is that any regime that comes to power in Greece by way of the ballot box, even if it was a regime of the most orthodox Marxists, Trotskyists, what have you, conceivable, would be a bourgeois regime. The only way the workers can take the power is by overthrowing the bourgeios state and establishing the dictatorship of the proletariat.

And, short of the dictatorship of the proletariat, any regime in Greece is going to have to carry out extremely deep austerity measures, or go broke.

For that matter, Greek workers might well have to tighten their belts even if you did have a workers state. But then at least the poverty could be shared on a fair and equal basis, so that, hopefully, workers would be willing to accept grim necessities, and suppress Kronstadt-type revolts by backward elements if needed.

The only real solution is Europe wide workers revolution, but a revolution in Greece is the obvious way for that to start.

-M.H.-

A Marxist Historian

13th June 2012, 00:17

Of course any government in Greece will be in a precarious position. But a vote for ND would be the first premise of overcoming that from a pro-capital standpoint.

The former PASOK government wasn't elected on a mandate on austerity - which wasn't anyway an actually clear issue in 2009. Give a mandate to ND, and it will suppress popular dissent, or fail to do it in a way that will give credence to parties further to the right. Give a mandate to Golden Dawn, it will transform Greece into an outright dictatorship as soon as possible, outlawing everything from KKE to LAOS and SYRIZA to ND.

Labour is the left wing of capital.

You don't want to see how different parties will change this, which is a different issue; and you refuse to see it because it contradicts your preconceived notions of how things work.

Again, why are we discussing the Greek elections? Do you think we would be discussing them if New Democracy and/or PASOK had won a clear majority in May 6th?

In the completely unlikely eventuality that KKE could win elections/form a government, it would impose "austerity" no doubt. It would just be a very different kind of austerity than that the EU tries to impose; it would be Stalinist-like austerity. Vote for bread queues, they are actually a good thing!

The difference between KKE and other leftist parties in Greece, again, is that those other parties share popular delusions about the situation; the KKE clings to its particular delusions, that no one else shares (well, maybe some of the 0.1%-of-the-vote parties such as KKE-ML, OAKKE, EEK or OKDE, but I don't see how this would change anything at all), which leaves them in isolation, and consequently irrelevant to the immediate political future of Greece and Europe.

Luís Henrique

Actually, if the KKE won the elections somehow, they wouldn't be able to turn Greece into some sort of Cuba. That can only be done through a revolution, something you can't do at the ballot box.

On paper, I think the KKE in some of its leftmost resolutions recently even recognizes that. I hear that the KKE actually issued a statement calling for forming workers councils, soviets. Actually doing that however is likely another matter.

It is quite true that the KKE's delusions in the possibility of "socialism in one country" do isolate them in Greece, indeed most Greeks do know better. But at least they are calling for some sort of socialism, unlike SYRIZA, which really doesn't, except on paper in the sweet bye and bye.

What would happen if the KKE won the elections somehow? Well, then, the leadership would be forced to put its actions where its mouth was, and I am quite certain would be unable to.

And the party would split down the middle, and the left wing would be fine material to create a real revolutionary party out of.

Lastly, just what do you think the economic situation of an isolated workers Greece would be? I don't care whether it was run by Stalinists, Trotskyists, or anarchists for that matter, there would be shortages and lines. There were in Soviet Russia under Lenin after all. Such is life.

But that's a hell of a lot better than what the EU has in mind for Greece.

It's one or the other. The SYRIZA idea of a middle ground in between, with Greece still in the EU but no austerity, is utter pie in the sky. If Tsipras actually becomes the Greek President, one way or the other that delusion won't last a week.

-M.H.-

LuÃs Henrique

15th June 2012, 16:13

Luis, what you fail to realize is that any regime that comes to power in Greece by way of the ballot box, even if it was a regime of the most orthodox Marxists, Trotskyists, what have you, conceivable, would be a bourgeois regime. The only way the workers can take the power is by overthrowing the bourgeios state and establishing the dictatorship of the proletariat.

Indeed, wich circumscribes our search on what to do regarding the Greek elections to the following:

Which electoral result will be more conducive to the working class realising it has to overthrow the bourgeois State and establish itself as the new ruling class?

If the KKE could possibly win these elections, then its victory could well be that result we are searching for. But realistically, either New Democracy or SYRIZA are going to win, so we are reduced to asking what result will be more conducive to the working class realising it has to overthrow the bourgeois State and establish itself as the new ruling class, among these two possible outcomes: the victory of ND or the victory of SYRIZA. Of course, if we think the victory of ND is better for the working class, or indifferent, then we can consider calling a vote for the KKE (or the KKE-ML, or OKDE, or whatever other small group we fancy, or puting up a "party" of ourselves and running to make a point).

And, short of the dictatorship of the proletariat, any regime in Greece is going to have to carry out extremely deep austerity measures, or go broke.

Of course. There is no way out from this mess for Greece without sacrifices for the bulk of the population; what we have to ponder is whether such sacrifices are made in order to save a system that will then demand new sacrifices, or in order to put an end to it; and how such sacrifices will be distributed among the population (ie, whether the workers, the peasants, the petty bourgeoisie, etc, will take the brunt of it while the bourgeoisie goes exempt or even profits out of the sacrifice).

For that matter, Greek workers might well have to tighten their belts even if you did have a workers state. But then at least the poverty could be shared on a fair and equal basis, so that, hopefully, workers would be willing to accept grim necessities, and suppress Kronstadt-type revolts by backward elements if needed.

Yes. There is a thin line between accepting unavoidable disagreeable consequences of an effort to put an end to exploitation, and the glorification of such disagreeable consequences in the Stalinist way.

The only real solution is Europe wide workers revolution, but a revolution in Greece is the obvious way for that to start.

At this moment, it is. Next week it is possible that Spain will be a better wager, or Italy; the situation is very fluid, as is always the case in pre-revolutionary situations.

Evidently, if each of the national working classes of the world is going to wait for the others to start a revolution, the most probable outcome is another victory of the bourgeoisie. Each bourgeois regime that is overthrown by the workers increases the possibility of an international revolution, so hesitation isn't a good thing.

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

17th June 2012, 16:14

A rumour that ND was leading in the preferences of Greek voters resulted in a 10% jump (http://www.policymic.com/articles/9720/greek-elections-results-2012-determining-the-future-of-greece-in-the-euro-zone) in the Greek stockmarkets.

We may not know who or what we should support in the Greek elections today. But the market, and our enemies certainly know who they support.

Luís Henrique

A Marxist Historian

17th June 2012, 20:35

Indeed, wich circumscribes our search on what to do regarding the Greek elections to the following:

Which electoral result will be more conducive to the working class realising it has to overthrow the bourgeois State and establish itself as the new ruling class?

If the KKE could possibly win these elections, then its victory could well be that result we are searching for. But realistically, either New Democracy or SYRIZA are going to win, so we are reduced to asking what result will be more conducive to the working class realising it has to overthrow the bourgeois State and establish itself as the new ruling class, among these two possible outcomes: the victory of ND or the victory of SYRIZA. Of course, if we think the victory of ND is better for the working class, or indifferent, then we can consider calling a vote for the KKE (or the KKE-ML, or OKDE, or whatever other small group we fancy, or puting up a "party" of ourselves and running to make a point).

Which side winning is better for the workers? The liberation of the working class can't be won at the ballot box, so ultimately it makes no difference.

Indeed, if the KKE won, that would mean the Greek working class had made a huge jump to the left, but wouldn't necessarily help. That the Finnish Social Democracy running on a platform of socialist revolution in alliance with the Bolsheviks won the elections of 1918 wasn't even necessarily a good thing, as it meant that Finnish Social Democrats were spending all their time election campaigning while the Whites were preparing for civil war--which they won.

Concretely, the bourgeoisie itself, despite all the scare rhetoric of the last few weeks, is not so sure an ND victory would be better for them. Here's what the New York Times, the most intelligent voice of the dominant ruling class of this planet, had to say today just before the votes started coming in:

"While New Democracy appears to be running neck-and-neck with Syriza, many say they believe that Europe’s best chance to negotiate a lasting deal with Athens — and to keep down social unrest at home — would be if Syriza is in the government and part of whatever emerges."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/world/europe/in-greece-fears-that-voting-wont-resolve-turmoil.html (quote from second page)

How to decide who to vote for? I think Engels put it best in *Origins of the Family,* written at a point when Social Democracy in Germany and elsewhere was rising remarkably in the polls in many European countries:

"the possessing class rules directly by means of universal suffrage. As long as the oppressed class – in our case, therefore, the proletariat – is not yet ripe for its self-liberation, so long will it, in its majority, recognize the existing order of society as the only possible one and remain politically the tall of the capitalist class, its extreme left wing. But in the measure in which it matures towards its self-emancipation, in the same measure it constitutes itself as its own party and votes for its own representatives, not those of the capitalists. Universal suffrage is thus the gauge of the maturity of the working class. It cannot and never will be anything more in the modern state; but that is enough. On the day when the thermometer of universal suffrage shows boiling-point among the workers, they as well as the capitalists will know where they stand."

Voting for some small sect or other with no mass base and a small membership is almost irrelevant at a point like this.

But if the workers vote for the KKE, which leads a sizeable section of the working class, has its own powerful and militant trade union federation, and calls for revolution, socialism and leaving the EU, that is a much better thermometer reading than voting for SYRIZA, which promises to stay in the Eurozone and renegotiate the austerity measures so as to be more favorable to Greece. As does the ND too at this point!

Equally importantly, for the moment at least the KKE is opposed to all coalitions with bourgeois parties, so a working class vote for it is, as Engels put it, a vote "for its own representatives, not those of the capitalists."

Tsipras's slogan for election day, reported in the NYT article linked above, is "Brussels, here we come." That is what Greek workers are voting for if they vote SYRIZA. SYRIZA is basically running an anti-austerity campaign, not a campaign for socialism. And a SYRIZA government could not possibly fulfill its anti-austerity promises, any more than a liberal capitalist government could.

Brussels will make some concessions no doubt, lengthen the loan repayment terms etc.--whoever is elected. But either a SYRIZA or an ND regime would inevitably have to impose sharp austerity measures on the working class--if necessary by force.

First results seem to indicate that the ND is winning and will have a parliamentary majority together with PASOK. Is this a bad thing? Well, it's not a good thermometer reading of where the Greek people are at at the moment, but is not necessarily catastrophic.

Indeed, an ND/PASOK government has very little if any authority in the eyes of the Greek people, and might well be much less effective in smothring class struggle than a SYRIZA regime, directing the eyes of the Greek workers away from their own struggles to ... Brussels.

-M.H.-

Of course. There is no way out from this mess for Greece without sacrifices for the bulk of the population; what we have to ponder is whether such sacrifices are made in order to save a system that will then demand new sacrifices, or in order to put an end to it; and how such sacrifices will be distributed among the population (ie, whether the workers, the peasants, the petty bourgeoisie, etc, will take the brunt of it while the bourgeoisie goes exempt or even profits out of the sacrifice).

Yes. There is a thin line between accepting unavoidable disagreeable consequences of an effort to put an end to exploitation, and the glorification of such disagreeable consequences in the Stalinist way.

At this moment, it is. Next week it is possible that Spain will be a better wager, or Italy; the situation is very fluid, as is always the case in pre-revolutionary situations.

Evidently, if each of the national working classes of the world is going to wait for the others to start a revolution, the most probable outcome is another victory of the bourgeoisie. Each bourgeois regime that is overthrown by the workers increases the possibility of an international revolution, so hesitation isn't a good thing.

Luís Henrique

17th June 2012, 21:59

So, plunging from 26 to 12 seats in a month, I guess the main question right now is: Will the KKE learn from this fiasco and join forces in building an opposition together with SYRIZA?

Omsk

17th June 2012, 22:11

They should not ally themselves with a party which has Trotskyite elements.

Art Vandelay

17th June 2012, 22:20

They should not ally themselves with a party which has Trotskyite elements.

Hahaha what a fucking loser you are, I don`t even care about your politics but seriously :confused: Still worried more about those dead russians than todays political landscape; just about sums up your politics. I don`t even care if I get infracted, but honestly? :lol:

Omsk

17th June 2012, 22:39

There is nothing 'laughable' about a concern for the ideological purity of an organization. (Although poison already destroyed that party.) You are forgetting that a proper ML organization should regard Trotskyists as complete opposition and enemies.

Tim Finnegan

17th June 2012, 22:42

There is nothing 'laughable' about a concern for the ideological purity of an organization.
Of course there is, you dumb fuck. The very concept of "ideological purity" is a joke, let alone the notion that it might be of relevance to practical struggle.

#FF0000

17th June 2012, 22:45

dinosaurs fightin dinosaurs

Omsk

17th June 2012, 22:47

Of course there is, you dumb fuck. The very concept of "ideological purity" is a joke, let alone the notion that it might be of relevance to practical struggle.

You arrogant idiot, go fuck yourself, i'm really glad to see you talk about 'practical struggle'.

Art Vandelay

17th June 2012, 23:01

You arrogant idiot, go fuck yourself, i'm really glad to see you talk about 'practical struggle'.

And I am really glad you and your politics will never gain any traction within the working class.

Omsk

17th June 2012, 23:20

And I am really glad you and your politics will never gain any traction within the working class.

You don't even have your 'politics' so your words here mean little.

Art Vandelay

17th June 2012, 23:23

You don't even have your 'politics' so your words here mean little.

Like you know anything about my political views; what little I do post on this forum hardly represents the totality of my political opinions. You on the other hand are hardly any different from any other stalin fan boy on the site. Although this is the second time you have thrown this accusation at me omsk, projecting much?

Omsk

17th June 2012, 23:30

Like you know anything about my political views; what little I do post on this forum hardly represents the totality of my political opinions. You on the other hand are hardly any different from any other stalin fan boy on the site. Although this is the second time you have thrown this accusation at me omsk, projecting much?

So you get mad when i speak about your political opinions yet you expect me to ignore your clumsy treading into Marxism-Leninism.

You on the other hand are hardly any different from any other stalin fan boy on the site.

Bah. Your just a copy of the older 'jokers' and 'anti-Stalinists' 'Marxists' .

Art Vandelay

18th June 2012, 00:20

So you get mad when i speak about your political opinions yet you expect me to ignore your clumsy treading into Marxism-Leninism.

How on earth would you have interpreted what I said as me being "mad?" Unfortunately for you, random "jokers" on the internet don't get me mad.

Bah. Your just a copy of the older 'jokers' and 'anti-Stalinists' 'Marxists' .

From you, Omsk, I consider that a compliment :crying:

Lev Bronsteinovich

18th June 2012, 00:57

They should not ally themselves with a party which has Trotskyite elements.
Don't be silly comrade Omsk. Syriza is no more Trotskyite (sic) than you are. Just because some reformists that like to call themselves Trotskyists are supporting Syriza, doesn't mean much. There are ostensible Trotskyists that have joined coalition governments with bourgeois parties, that support "free speech for fascists," that have disappeared into the British Labor Party for a couple of decades, and worse. Any kind of support to a party that is in favor of EU membership and simply "renegotiating" the austerity agreements with Germany is on the wrong side of the class line -- Trotskyists do not support Syriza.

Geiseric

18th June 2012, 04:29

Welshy

18th June 2012, 07:41

The support for KKE among the left is baffling, and even worse is the "don't vote," notion which resulted in a new democracy government.

You know the voter turn out was about the same as it was last election when ND couldn't form a coalition, right?

Rainsborough

18th June 2012, 07:56

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/greek-conservatives-vie-radical-left-161449035.html

Greek People 'Have Voted For The Euro'

Greek voters have decided to stick with the single currency in an election which narrowly handed victory to the pro-bailout party, New Democracy.
In a result which will give some respite to EU leaders, the centre-right party secured 29.6% of the vote, while the radical left coalition Syriza was close behind with 26.9%.

There you go. Now let's all blame the KKE shall we?

agnixie

18th June 2012, 09:05

In terms of vote changes, most of the gains for Syriza and ND came from people who voted for smaller parties and independents., with KKE losing 4% of its votes (presumably to SYRIZA) and ANEL 3% (presumably to ND). I'm still more baffled by the greek parliament's electoral mechanisms (50 seats in bulk to the plurality? The hell?).

On the plus side, there is basically no viable coalition for ND (or for anyone really), unless PASOK accepts a subservient role, or ANEL or Golden Dawn decides to renege on their anti-bailout positions in favour of a right wing government. However it's less likely to fall apart right away.

Tim Finnegan

18th June 2012, 12:57

Crux

18th June 2012, 13:00

Now, here's a question: what on earth is the difference between the Communist Party (Marxist-Leninist) and the Marxist Leninist Communist Party, especially given that they appear to have run joint candidates? Neither are of any consequence, I know, but I'm curious.
One is a a follower of Marxism-Leninism-Maoism the other of Marxism-Leninism-Mao-Zedong-Thought. Seriously though as far as I remember they (and the KOE and probably others I am forgetting about) used to be in the same org but like in most of the maoist left the death of Mao and the Deng Xiaoping era caused some confusion and rifts.

Lev Bronsteinovich

18th June 2012, 14:12

There are definately trotskyists that support the idea of an anti austerity united front, which many trotskyists are part of. It's an explicitely Bolshevist tactic for a situation where there isn't a workers party. The support for KKE among the left is baffling, and even worse is the "don't vote," notion which resulted in a new democracy government.
A poor application of Trotskyism, IMO. The Bolsheviks were operating under somewhat different circumstances in 1917, you know. Since then, Leninist and Trotskyist thought has shifted. What the fuck is an anti-austerity united front, anyway? It is an electoral coalition that gives support to staying in the EU. United fronts are about joint action against attacks on the proletariat, limited in scope, not unprincipled electoral dabbling. There is absolutely no class content to "anti-austerity" -- Golden Dawn can have that just as readily as leftists.

The KKE, at least has a clear class line (for the time being) explicitly opposed to any coalition government with bourgeois parties. So the tactic of CRITICAL support could be applied to them.

Omsk

18th June 2012, 14:16

From you, Omsk, I consider that a compliment

I forgot to mention you can't reach their knees.

Don't be silly comrade Omsk. Syriza is no more Trotskyite (sic) than you are. Just because some reformists that like to call themselves Trotskyists are supporting Syriza, doesn't mean much. There are ostensible Trotskyists that have joined coalition governments with bourgeois parties, that support "free speech for fascists," that have disappeared into the British Labor Party for a couple of decades, and worse. Any kind of support to a party that is in favor of EU membership and simply "renegotiating" the austerity agreements with Germany is on the wrong side of the class line -- Trotskyists do not support Syriza.

It was co-founded with Trotskyites so it has Trotskyite roots, and there are a lot of Trotskyists in it. Also, do understand that i never accused Syriza of actually being a Trotskyite party, but rather that it has Trotskyists in their ranks which is unacceptable.

Tim Finnegan

18th June 2012, 14:27

The KKE, at least has a clear class line (for the time being) explicitly opposed to any coalition government with other bourgeois parties.
Fixed that for ye.

A Marxist Historian

19th June 2012, 08:05

There are definately trotskyists that support the idea of an anti austerity united front, which many trotskyists are part of. It's an explicitely Bolshevist tactic for a situation where there isn't a workers party. The support for KKE among the left is baffling, and even worse is the "don't vote," notion which resulted in a new democracy government.

A "united front" of anyone who says they are against austerity would include Rooseveltian bourgeois liberals, intelligent Keynesian economists like Krugman, etc. etc.

In short, it would be a "popular front," not a united front.

There can be no such thing as a genuinely anti-austerity government in Greek conditions, without overthrowing and smashing the capitalist state and beginning a socialist revolution. Electing SYRIZA (or anyone else actually including the KKE or ANTARSYA for that matter), into office wouldn't end austerity, it would simply compel SYRIZA to be the ones implementing austerity.

A true anti-austerity united front can't be at the ballot box, it can only be in the streets and on the picket lines.

Since the KKE was the only serious candidature of a mass party that talked about socialism and revolution as the solution, anybody who actually believes that what Greece needs is a socialist revolution should have voted for it. Abstention would be sectarian, in a situation like this.

-M.H.-

Grenzer

20th June 2012, 19:59

GuardiaRossa

29th June 2012, 13:43

A Marxist Historian

29th June 2012, 22:23

Why have there been no attempts so far by any of the Maoist parties (KOE, KKE-(ml), ml-KKE) to establish a process of protracted people's war (http://pcr-rcp.ca/en/en/pwd/1e.php)? The conditions in Greece seem right no? Why are the Maoist forces almost absent from the street confrontations and armed struggle while the anarchists take the lead here?

The biggest Maoist group is the KOE, and they're part of SYRIZA. There's even a thread here in this forum about them.

They're more interested in "serving the people," getting peasants to give potatoes to immigrant etc., than organizing a "Peoples' War." They're apparently mostly college students, and their med students provide medical aid to immigrants.

So streetfightin' is probably not their bag.

-M.H.-

Tim Finnegan

29th June 2012, 23:36

Brosa Luxemburg

29th June 2012, 23:41

electrostal

29th June 2012, 23:41

Just saying, Greece already has significant experience with a "people's war".

GuardiaRossa

30th June 2012, 01:04

The biggest Maoist group is the KOE, and they're part of SYRIZA. There's even a thread here in this forum about them.

They're more interested in "serving the people," getting peasants to give potatoes to immigrant etc., than organizing a "Peoples' War." They're apparently mostly college students, and their med students provide medical aid to immigrants.

So streetfightin' is probably not their bag.

-M.H.-

I understand that and the serve the people line is an important aspect of Mao's contributions to Marxism-Leninism but I don't see what prospect there is for destroying the bourgeois state and building the dictatorship of the proletariat without armed struggle? I mean Greece isn't India or whatever but with the likelihood of a coup increasing (some ex minister of defense hinted at that not long ago), the attacks on immigrants and the unresolvable crisis pushing harder and harder on the working masses, the initiative will have to be taken by an organized vanguard of the most class conscious workers who establish a new workers' state. And that can't be done if no preparations and attempts are made to destabilize the current one through protracted people's war, no?

Because that's completely fucking ridiculous?

Why? I don't mean simple anarchist rioting or adventurist bombings or whatever, I mean the establishment of new organs of the proletarian state through neighborhood and peasant committees who arm themselves to establish red corridors like the Naxals. Why isn't this possible in the (near) future?

wsg1991

30th June 2012, 02:57

Coggeh

30th June 2012, 03:39

nationalization should target profitable business , that's the point of nationalization in the first place

for failing banks and industry i take right wing positions :let the market clear it out ( if there is no socialist revolution ) let it's owners get bankrupted fuck them
and subsidies the workers who will lose their jobs instead
What about vital business's? can you let them collapse too? never mind the fact that by that logic mass amounts of jobs could be lost overnight, a state bailout to nationalized business's in other to restructure them with the view to keeping them afloat before there can be a real overhaul of the economy would not be a bad thing. Also many business's are failing because of austerity which causes a lack of spending power for workers, this would be immediately stopped.

A Marxist Historian

30th June 2012, 20:29

I understand that and the serve the people line is an important aspect of Mao's contributions to Marxism-Leninism but I don't see what prospect there is for destroying the bourgeois state and building the dictatorship of the proletariat without armed struggle? I mean Greece isn't India or whatever but with the likelihood of a coup increasing (some ex minister of defense hinted at that not long ago), the attacks on immigrants and the unresolvable crisis pushing harder and harder on the working masses, the initiative will have to be taken by an organized vanguard of the most class conscious workers who establish a new workers' state. And that can't be done if no preparations and attempts are made to destabilize the current one through protracted people's war, no?

Why? I don't mean simple anarchist rioting or adventurist bombings or whatever, I mean the establishment of new organs of the proletarian state through neighborhood and peasant committees who arm themselves to establish red corridors like the Naxals. Why isn't this possible in the (near) future?

Because Greece is not China. Peasants in Greece and farmers, not serfs, small scale agricultural businessmen. Not as reactionary as farmers in the USA, but Greece is more like the USA than like India.

In the 1940s the Greek peasantry were indeed a mainstay of the KKE led anti-Nazi guerilla movement, but that is then and this is now. I suspect a good number of Greek farmers voted for Golden Dawn.

A Greek Revolution will look a lot more like Russia in 1917 than China in 1949. So "protracted peoples war," which IMHO wasn't really such a great idea in China either, it was a retreat from the worker-led Chinese revolutionary movement of the 1920s because of the defeat of the Chinese Revolution due to Stalin's collaboration policy with the KMT, is simply irrelevant in Greece.

-M.H.-