Many Black Nationalists say that the White Race is the Bourgeoisie ?

[tradeunionsupporter]

Many Black Nationalists say that the White Race is the Bourgeoisie and that the Black Race is the Proletariat. They say that the Black lower class is much lower then the White lower class and that the Black upper class is not as near the top of the White upper class. Are these Non White Nationalists correct ? I will post a video below if you watch the whole thing you will see this Black Nationalist saying this.

DR.KHALLID ABDUL MUHAMMAD- No holds barred forum (2)

38:56 - 5 years ago
NO HOLD BARRED FORUM 1998- THE GOOD DOCTOR ANSWERS HIS CRITICS AFTER THE MILLION YOUTH MARCH RALLY 1998 AND ATONEMENT DAY 1998 part.2


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4128686588320760247#

[tradeunionsupporter]

He says in the video that the Whites are the upper class and that the Blacks are the lower class in terms of Economics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_privilege

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism

[tradeunionsupporter]

Sean Hannity vs Khalid Muhammad (part 1)

Uploaded by dh1186 (http://www.youtube.com/user/dh1186) on Apr 10, 2008

"With his brilliant wit, razor sharp mental skills and no-compromise attitude toward whites, our beloved ancestor takes on this right-wing bigot in an almost surgical fashion. Even the callers, in attempting to get at Khallid's emotions, get more than they bargined for."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abLG00ls8LY

Khalid Muhammed vs Dominic Carter

Uploaded by brooklynmagi (http://www.youtube.com/user/brooklynmagi) on Apr 6, 2011

Khalid Muhammed vs Dominic Carter

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4KvnCs2Y-c

[l'Enfermé]

And I'm restricted for...actually, I don't know, but you're not restricted?

[wsg1991]

is this what black nationalism is about ? it was an error defending this shit on other threads

[Leftsolidarity]

And I'm restricted for...actually, I don't know, but you're not restricted?

What does this have to do with anything? He's asking a valid question about certain black nationalists.

To OP: I think it depends on the person/group you are talking about. Some might say that but black nationalism isn't exactly a homogenous group.

[Hit The North]

Khalid Muhammad's skin-colour essentialism is bullshit but he makes a good case exposing the racism of Amerikkka.

As for the OP, whatever the rights and wrongs of the view that race is the most fundamental basis for inequality, the terms 'bourgeoisie' and 'proletariat' as relating to 'whites' and 'everyone else', respectively, is only valid rhetorically - it has no analytical content.

[bcbm]

who has more in a common a black walmart employee and a white walmart employee or a black walmart employee and a black ceo of walmart?

[#FF0000]

is this what black nationalism is about ? it was an error defending this shit on other threads

nope

[Positivist]

Much of the lower class is composed of minorities and this does link back to earlier racial oppression but the proletariat itself is not determined by ethnicity and it remains firmly multiracial.

[Althusser]

uhh... Why is black nationalism even slightly tolerated here? Nationalism is detrimental. It's a devisive force. Do people actually think that the bourgeoisie is kicking themselves over another group that draws a division between proletarians of different ethnicities?

What would you consider society's end goal according to Marxist theory? Does anyone see white or black nationalism applying in any way?

Also, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ddRNy4MISkg).

[l'Enfermé]

What does this have to do with anything? He's asking a valid question about certain black nationalists.

To OP: I think it depends on the person/group you are talking about. Some might say that but black nationalism isn't exactly a homogenous group.
The guy is basically an apologist for black racists(I recall a thread he made where he basically clings to the idea that black racism against whites is somehow justified because blacks have been historically oppressed by the white ruling class in North America, though he conveniently ignores the millions of Slavs and blacks that were enslaved by the Arabs and the Ottomans. I guess anti-Turk/Arab Slavs are justified in their bigotry because historically the Muslims have oppressed them more than the Americans have the blacks) and in this thread, he's basically being a third-worldist, except for in his version, while the evil white westerners are all exploiters like in the Chinese variant of the theory, it's the blacks that are the exploited proletariat and not the entire third world. Third-Worldism is a restrictable offense around here, and this black variant is even more reactionary than the original.

[Azraella]

I recall a thread he made where he basically clings to the idea that black racism against whites is somehow justified because blacks have been historically oppressed by the white ruling class in North America, though he conveniently ignores the millions of Slavs and blacks that were enslaved by the Arabs and the Ottomans. I guess anti-Turk/Arab Slavs are justified in their bigotry because historically the Muslims have oppressed them more than the Americans have the blacks

People of color can't be racist towards white people. That requires power and prejudice, broham. But people of color can certainly be racist towards other people of color. Welcome to intersectionality 101.

[homegrown terror]

there's a difference between racism and discrimination. discrimination is either individual or institutional, racism is purely institutional.

[Ocean Seal]

And I'm restricted for...actually, I don't know, but you're not restricted?
Pretty sure the dude is a bot made by the site to bring about debate.

Also yes some black nationalists say that, and its dumb. End of story.

[l'Enfermé]

People of color can't be racist towards white people. That requires power and prejudice, broham. But people of color can certainly be racist towards other people of color. Welcome to intersectionality 101.
What sort of stupid fucking bullshit is that? I've personally met a shitload of black and Turkish/Arab anti-white/European racists.

[Yuppie Grinder]

If racism were necessarily institutional then why does the term "institutionalized racism" exist? White working class people are obviously victims of racism. Do you not hear terms like trailer trash, white trash, and wigger all the time?

[Tim Cornelis]

People of color can't be racist towards white people. That requires power and prejudice, broham. But people of color can certainly be racist towards other people of color. Welcome to intersectionality 101.

African people are inherently inferior to other races. They need to be eradicated from the planet. They are primitive sub-humans incapable of civilised behaviour.

The above is not racist since it's not institutionalised.

Racism is not an institution, it's an opinion. Institutionalised racism is institutionalised.

Incidentally, your statement implies that no African anywhere in the world has control or power over any institution anywhere.

[homegrown terror]

African people are inherently inferior to other races. They need to be eradicated from the planet. They are primitive sub-humans incapable of civilised behaviour.

The above is not racist since it's not institutionalised.

Racism is not an institution, it's an opinion. Institutionalised racism is institutionalised.

Incidentally, your statement implies that no African anywhere in the world has control or power over any institution anywhere.

there are africans with institutional power, but how many of them use their power to fundamentally oppress others based upon skin color? other than the odd african dictator popping up, i'd say not many.

[l'Enfermé]

Wait, I wouldn't be a racist if I thought that blacks are monkey-people whom we can catch and use as slaves because of their racial inferiority if I was some unimportant person who has no influence over any social/political/economic institutions?

[MGP]

This depends on what is their definition of bourgeoisie. Do you own means of production? If not, you're not bourgeoisie by my definition. Since majority of white people do not own means of production, I guess then that those who say all white people are bourgeoisie use that word in a different manner than me.

[Althusser]

Holy shit. I've been watching Khalid Muhammad interviews, the Phil Donahue one specifically. He has very flawed logic. e.g. "Blacks have been persecuted and continue to be persecuted by whites. This is reprehensible. Therefore, I love Colin Ferguson, a guy who shot six random white people on public transportation."

[Qavvik]

.

[Leftsolidarity]

Nationalism on its own is disgusting, racism on its face is intolerable. Combining the two, accusing the other guys of being "bourgeois," and then attempting to brand it as part of the broader left is laughable at best. Black nationalists and white nationalists are woven from the same thread. The proletariat in the United States and the world is multiracial, the divide by race is a consequence of the racialist attitudes espoused by capitalists.

You're an M-L-M?

I figured that someone from that line of thought would see the difference between black nationalism (and other oppressed people's) and white nationalism.

[Prometeo liberado]

This type of thinking is of the narrowest kind. Yes, in some instances capital has instilled an economic pecking order of sorts in order to pit white against black. Southern states and the industrial northeast come to mind. This should not be mistaken as working class doings by the white working class. Mexican workers in the southwest look down upon as takers of jobs and uncultured Filipino immigrants. This working class racism plays itself out in some form the world over. Its not about the person working for a lower wage or doing the hiring so much as it is the one who OWNS the means of production.

[Qavvik]

.

[LeftAbove]

People of color can't be racist towards white people. That requires power and prejudice, broham. But people of color can certainly be racist towards other people of color. Welcome to intersectionality 101.

Could you please elaborate? And please define people of color. Are Arabs people of color? What about the Chinese? Pakistanis?

Racism of any kind is bad on its own. Could we all agree on that?

[l'Enfermé]

We should support the racial nationalism of oppressed people? The Germans during the Weimar era were economically and militarily oppressed by the victorious powers of WWI, was then the nationalism of the NSDAP justified and should it be supported, too? After all, the allies quite literally starved Germany's economy to death, horribly oppressing millions of Germans.

What a fucking joke.

[RedCloud]

People of color can't be racist towards white people. That requires power and prejudice, broham. But people of color can certainly be racist towards other people of color. Welcome to intersectionality 101.

Haha, yes they can. One race does not have to have power to be racist otherwise it would have to be the other way around... That would mean homeless people and every-day blue-collar workers couldn't be racist because they have no power.
Anyone can be racist. Racism is just (usually negative) racial generalization.


That is also saying that people of color have no power and prejudice, which alone is a racial generalization and assumption.

[homegrown terror]

Haha, yes they can. One race does not have to have power to be racist otherwise it would have to be the other way around... That would mean homeless people and every-day blue-collar workers couldn't be racist because they have no power.
Anyone can be racist. Racism is just (usually negative) racial generalization.


That is also saying that people of color have no power and prejudice, which alone is a racial generalization and assumption.

you're confusing common definitions with technical definitions. yes, in common speech it's usually accepted to use the term "racism" to describe individual prejudice and discrimination, but from an academic standpoint the two are different concepts. it's like how the average person knows about photons, neutrons and electrons, but a physics professor could also tell you about photons, gluons, bosons, neutrinos etc.

[Raskolnikov]

We should support the racial nationalism of oppressed people?The problem is what you define as an 'oppressed' people. Were the Germans oppressed by the Allies? Yes, the German state was pretty much kicked into the bucket via the larger Empires and restricted of any Imperialistic activity.

Thus the profits of Imperialism the citizenship gained from the oppression of the Third World diminished and we got the shitty conditions.

However - Black Nationalism does not go hand in hand with Imperial Germany. There is a problem of Africans being an actual proletariat in the nation that subjugates and oppresses through various means. (Be it killing them, locking them up and so forth)

Black Nationalism can be used for Revolutionary means - however when we talk about 'Racism'. Let's actually get the definition of this being a system which isolates you and oppresses you politically, economically and socially due to your colour.

There is really no evidence of Black Nationalism's intent to do this.

As we can see in the Uhuru movement, it can be used for Revolutionary means. If one did not like to believe the Black Panthers or what they stood for.
We, however, can see a bourgeois attribute in being 'white'. Or at least a Labour Aristocratic one where white workers get paid more than their oppressed counter-parts. (Thus giving 'White' as a class more so than a 'people'. As The Irish were not 'white' up until the 1850s, like most poor folk of European descent who did not own land and immigrated here. Now being 'White' does not escape the classical oppression of Capitalism - however it makes it a structure based on descent and how to be identified as 'White' when compared to 'Non-white' peoples such as Chicanos or Africans or the Native Americans.)

(check the AFL-CIO's 'The Union Different' as I can unfortunately not post links yet)

(Now for the Asian-part on this; it can be explained through either bringing over petit-bourgeois persons and thus it can completely ignore the poor populations of Filipinos within America.

It also helps, in this case, that Asia has become the technological-Garden-of-Eden for Capitalism to ever so exploit from.) - this is for when seeing the actual Union-Difference.

[Revolution starts with U]

And I'm restricted for...actually, I don't know, but you're not restricted?

Actually, Tradeunionsupporter always asks questions like this... and if you notice it WAS a question. He doesn't often really share his views, but tries to get others share theirs... presumably to better understand the topic.

Or he's a bot designed to stimulate debate.. idk :lol:

[Jimmie Higgins]

If racism were necessarily institutional then why does the term "institutionalized racism" exist?

Because liberals and conservatives have both tried to neutralize the term into meaninglessness. They have always found it better if we blame eachother for racism not, say the banks and government officials who created red-lining (housing segregation in the non-Jim-Crow areas), the Democratic party which essentially ran the Reconstruction-era KKK and the Civil-Rights era segregationist groups, the Northern Liberals who let the black ghettos rot, the modern liberals and conservatives justifying millions of black people being locked up and racially profiled.

You can't say we live in a "color-blind" society if you look at the systemic issues, but it's easier to say racism doesn't exist if you reduce it to an inter-personal issue.


White working class people are obviously victims of racism. Do you not hear terms like trailer trash, white trash, and wigger all the time?No. This is applied to some white people because of their class or culture, not their race. It's class-elitism, not racism. In fact some of these terms, where there is a racial component, are directed at whites for "not acting white". So things like hillbilly, wigger, etc, are directed at whites who support blacks or "act black" - it's actually a product of anti-black racism in these cases.

And name-calling doesn't have the same social weight as systemically underfunded schools, media demonetization, political scapegoating, police repression, being targeted for bad home loans, etc.

[Luís Henrique]

Much of the lower class is composed of minorities and this does link back to earlier racial oppression but the proletariat itself is not determined by ethnicity and it remains firmly multiracial.

Hm.

I think the Chinese proletariat is most composed of Chinese people.

The world isn't flat, and it doesn't end at the Rio Grande.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

People of color can't be racist towards white people.

Of course they can, and eventually are. That racism cannot be institutional racism (in the circumstances of "Western" post-slavery societies), but this is a quite different issue.

Luís Henrique

[Thug Lessons]

The point isn't that Euro-Americans are a bourgeoisie proper. It's more that they're a sort of petit-bourgeoisie whose interests lie in maintaining colonialism and imperialism, and that revolutionary progressive change can only come against their wishes. Essentially, that they're not part of the revolutionary class. Of course, there are some people that think all white people are completely irredeemable or something like that, but they can be safely disregarded.

[Thug Lessons]

People of color can't be racist towards white people. That requires power and prejudice, broham. But people of color can certainly be racist towards other people of color. Welcome to intersectionality 101.
You know, I might be more willing to take this more seriously if I hadn't first heard it from Khalid Mohammad as an excuse for why his anti-semitic remarks weren't racist. Like, I totally agree with the underlying point that 'racism' against white people isn't even close to a real problem, but this particular argument seems like nothing more than semantics. It's perfectly possible to understand racism both in terms of racial hatred and institutional discrimination, and my intuition is that most people define the term that way.