Conspiracy Theories

[DasFapital]

What is the general view here on conspiracy theories such as 9/11 truth, JFK and the like. Are they a form of false consciousness and a distraction from actual crimes of capitalism/imperialism or do you consider them legitimate viewpoints worthy of further investigation?

[ArrowLance]

While all such popular conspiracy theories are false, and conspiracism is dangerous, I do find some media that cover the subject do have a positive effect in that they do raise questioning.

I would most likely ignore anyone who considered most conspiracies to have any value but would not criticize directly the general populace for holding them. Anti-government conspiracy believers may work with us in many ways.

[ВАЛТЕР]

I don't like conspiracy theories because they are defeatist. They always make it seem as if "They control everything, so there is nothing we can do about it ever."

Defeatist nonsense.

[Hexen]

I don't like conspiracy theories because they are defeatist. They always make it seem as if "They control everything, so there is nothing we can do about it ever."

Defeatist nonsense.

Defeatism is also a bourgeois tool to keep the lower classes in line. It's very identical to the "Human Nature" argument as well.

[Revolution starts with U]

They bring together a lot of evidence nobody else is talking about... and then make wild and illogical confusions about a ruling class that doesn't need or want an overarching conspiracy to rule the world. They don't need that, they just need capital; it will bind interests together for them, regardless of the actual conspiracy of anyone involved.

[Desperado]

They're legitimate in they're questioning of bourgeois propaganda and recognising the super elites' power but often wrong in their extrapolations. They are an irrational symptom of the state of fear our institutions create by design, and confusion late capitalism (the post-modern condition) causes. Really, they should be in a similar boat as us, because (from an instrumentalist point of view), the answer's seem pretty much the same - get rid of the ruling class, but as said they also tend to be defeatist.

As for the 9/11 business, whilst I don't buy into it, a government committing large scale terrorism on its own people isn't that far-fetched an idea (see: http://libcom.org/history/articles/strategy-of-tension-italy). It reminds me a bit of Wilson and Julia's discussion about whether or not their own Oceanian government was inventing the war or not. But again, we should just be instrumental about it. Does believing a certain theory help me predict data and patterns? Does it, as Marx emphasised, help me change the world? For Wilson and Julia, whatever the truth, the imperative was the same - the need to bring down Big Brother. But naturally, an accurate, and simple, understanding of the world, and so our exploitation, is far more suited towards our imperative. When we don't know, and can only (perhaps if lucky probibalisticaly) speculate, it's not really worth it.

[Deicide]

Really, they should be in a similar boat as us, because (from an instrumentalist point of view), the answers seem pretty much the same - get rid of the ruling class, but as said they also tend to be defeatist.

Conspiracy theorists can hardly be considered a homogenous group. For example, ct's influenced by David Icke (major loony) believe that once the ''shadowy reptillian bloodline elite'' are removed, humanity will return to its 'true self', I.E, to being God. According to David Icke, we are all one, one consciousness: God. But the evil reptillians have made us forget our true nature. He's basically a millenarian, but with a new-age flavour.

Yeah..


As for the 9/11 business, whilst I don't buy into it, a government committing large scale terrorism on its own people isn't that far-fetched an idea (see: http://libcom.org/history/articles/s...-tension-italy). It reminds me a bit of Wilson and Julia's discussion about whether or not their own Oceanian government was inventing the war or not. But again, we should just be instrumental about it. Does believing a certain theory help me predict data and patterns? Does it, as Marx emphasised, help me change the world? For Wilson and Julia, whatever the truth, the imperative was the same - the need to bring down Big Brother. But naturally, an accurate, and simple, understanding of the world, and so our exploitation, is far more suited towards our imperative. When we don't know, and can only (perhaps if lucky probibalisticaly) speculate, it's not really worth it.

The evidence for 9/11 being an ''inside job'' is bunk.

[TheAltruist]

I think we can all agree that there's a thin line between saying something is western propaganda vs. a entire conspiracy theory. Like the hippies who say there's a mass conspiracy between the oil companies and car manufacturers to keep cars inefficient, so that gas prices remain high and big oil makes more profits.

While it is true that a select few corporations have a near monopoly on the oil and car business, they don't actively work to fix prices and mileage. The "free" market provides them with an advantage.

In another case, some conspiracy theorists claim the U.S. Gov't was responsible for 9/11. This is not the case. It is true however, that the Americans had financed and done business with the Bin Laden family, and few out some of Osama's cousins in the weeks following the terrorist attacks.

[ComradeOm]

They bring together a lot of evidence nobody else is talking about..."Evidence" filtered through the prism of their own craziness. Conspiracy nuts do not assemble, analyse and publish information in a coherent or rational way. They start from the opposite end: latch on to crazy idea and then try to collect and distort enough random pieces of 'evidence' to conform to your nice little theory. Instead of building a case like a picture emerging from a jigsaw, they start with their picture and cut/twist the pieces until they fit the supposed design. Unless you look too closely, of course

That's how you get idiots talking about "evidence" like the material composition of Nazi gas chamber doors. It's poor quality thinking and shouldn't be encouraged


I always wondered what makes people believe in them. Are they just crazy? Stupid?I find that it's typically a combination of delusion and arrogance

[campesino]

I used to be a right-wing conspiracy theorist, some of it is pretty cool if you don't take it seriously and view as a parody or satire like the theories of David Icke. Other theories are crazy and creepy. Some is just unexplainable. some is just stupid. Conspiracy theory is a form of scientific fiction. There are supposed facts and methods that back up these fictions, but that is all they are, a fiction for an audience who thinks they are real.

what conspiracy theories have taught me are: don't trust (doubt) the media.
the government and humanity in general can be very bad.
there is a powerful oligarchy.

it did not however teach me anything about working class consciousness or any other marxist/communist ideas.

what the right wing conspiracy theorist learn
is the white race is endangered.
the holocaust is a hoax.
freedom means the right to have a gun, and pay no taxes.
any non-right-wing force is evil. emphasis on evil.

it is funny how corporate entities(fox news, koch brothers, americans for prosperity) manipulate right-wing conspiracy theorist into their hands, but they are too blind to realize that.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I think that Malcolm X was murdered by the state as Manning Marable pretty much proved.

So sue me.

(BTW the 9/11 Truth movement is a sick joke)

[Zostrianos]

Not all conspiracy theories are farfetched. In the case of the JFK assassination, while it was determined that Oswald was the shooter, there is evidence that there might have been another shooter as well, and a good part of the whole affair remains unsolved and nebulous. We might never know the whole truth.
*

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Not all conspiracy theories are farfetched. In the case of the JFK assassination, while it was determined that Oswald was the shooter, there is evidence that there might have been another shooter as well, and a good part of the whole affair remains unsolved and nebulous. We might never know the whole truth.
*

I agree. In fact, I think this is a pretty good article on the subject by a Marxist.

http://www.michaelparenti.org/JFKAssassination.html

[Brosa Luxemburg]

While most conspiracies are ridiculous (like the Illuminati fetishists), a small few have some validity.

[Qavvik]

.

[Zulu]

What is the general view here on conspiracy theories such as 9/11 truth, JFK and the like. Are they a form of false consciousness and a distraction from actual crimes of capitalism/imperialism or do you consider them legitimate viewpoints worthy of further investigation?

You have to approach each conspiracy theory on a case by case basis. Some of them are looney, and some of them are worthy of further investigation. Dismissing them all out of hand is no better than accepting them without criticism.



They bring together a lot of evidence nobody else is talking about... and then make wild and illogical confusions about a ruling class that doesn't need or want an overarching conspiracy to rule the world. They don't need that, they just need capital; it will bind interests together for them, regardless of the actual conspiracy of anyone involved.

Denying the value of conspiracies for the ruling class is like denying that of religion, law and anti-communist propaganda. Barring all that, the ruling class would have had to rule by brute force only, which isn't very economical.

And then again, some conspiracies are not about the ruling class oppressing the people, but about different factions within the ruling class sorting out their differences.

[Zostrianos]

The most ridiculous one I've seen is one believed by the most hardcore fundie creationists: that all the evidence we have for the theory of evolution and the age of the earth was planted by Satan to mislead the faithful :laugh:
Most also believe there is a giant science conspiracy to suppress creationism and push evolution; accordingly, most "evolutionists" actually believe in God and know that creationism is true, but they hate God and so made up the theory of evolution to discredit religion....

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

What is the general view here on conspiracy theories such as 9/11 truth, JFK and the like. Are they a form of false consciousness and a distraction from actual crimes of capitalism/imperialism or do you consider them legitimate viewpoints worthy of further investigation?

I consider any theory, hypothetically speaking, as a potentially legitimate viewpoint worthy of investigation. Neo-liberal propaganda is quite amazing, in that it's usually incredibly subtle and is buttressed with such shitty logic, like "we live in a country of cynics and an investigative media, never," when shit like the toppling of the Saddam statue was an arranged Army psyops and was completely staged. Pretty effective in that pictures, videos and other visual media is and can become reality. So, given the examples of some odd neo-liberal propaganda strategies, all so called conspiracy theories, within the realm of reality, reason and probabilty should be investigated as a legitimate theory. Speaking cases by case basis of course. I actually would assert that numerous so called conspiracy theories to be true.

[Hexen]

I think pointed out before along with Alex Jones, David Icke, and others there's also Micheal Rivero and also a new person I recently discovered, Alexander Higgins.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/ (http://www.anonym.to/?http://whatreallyhappened.com/)

http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/

How can you decipher these guys?

[Revolution starts with U]

Denying the value of conspiracies for the ruling class is like denying that of religion, law and anti-communist propaganda. Barring all that, the ruling class would have had to rule by brute force only, which isn't very economical.

And then again, some conspiracies are not about the ruling class oppressing the people, but about different factions within the ruling class sorting out their differences.

What I deny is that their conspiracy is overarching and class wide. That's too big to succeed, so to speak.
My point was that nobody else is talking about the CFR, the Bilderbergs, CIA projects like Op Mockingbird, and the like; the actual conspiracy going on right in our faces and legally. All of history is either one conspiracy theory or another. Where the fringe researchers go wrong is in thinking that the ruling class has one outlook and has fixed history since the beginning of time.

[Goblin]

Maoist Rebel News thinks that 911 was an inside job and that Kennedy was killed by the US government.

Sorry for bringing up MRN. Just thought i would share that lol.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

I guess socialist views of capitalist society count as conspiracy theory, except it is real.

[Thirsty Crow]

What is the general view here on conspiracy theories such as 9/11 truth, JFK and the like. Are they a form of false consciousness and a distraction from actual crimes of capitalism/imperialism or do you consider them legitimate viewpoints worthy of further investigation?
I generally tend to regard them as mystifications arising from a basically correct, though vague notions of the social, economic, and political problems people face.
Which is, I think, obvious with regard to conspiracy theories regarding the Illuminati, global world order etc. which seem to be based on people's recognition that they have no direct access to control that which shapes their lives, but proceed to misrecognize the actual forces at work due to all sorts of reasons, I assume.

[Hexen]

I guess socialist views of capitalist society count as conspiracy theory, except it is real.

Well the Socialist view is a scientific analysis of how society works while conspiracy theories in the other hand is pure pseudoscience which actually reflects land owning libertarian fears.

[La Comédie Noire]

Conspiracy theories are a way to cope with the difference between the capitalist myths of fairness and democratic equality and the reality of the capitalist system. It's not the system, but foreign and malicious influences which have corrupted a once great system.

The problem is the left and society as a whole threw out the analysis baby with the communist bath water. We sacrificed a nuanced and contextualized political theory for a smattering of conspiracy theories and vague populist rhetoric against the 1%.

[Hexen]

Conspiracy theories are a way to cope with the difference between the capitalist myths of fairness and democratic equality and the reality of the capitalist system. It's not the system, but foreign and malicious influences which have corrupted a once great system.

The problem is the left and society as a whole threw out the analysis baby with the communist bath water. We sacrificed a nuanced and contextualized political theory for a smattering of conspiracy theories and vague populist rhetoric against the 1%.

Yep, another thing I noticed about conspiracy theories is that they ignore the system and they instead focus on individuals 'corrupting the once great system' (notice the reactionary vibe there? As if they want to replace the ruling class with their own which would turn out no different making these conspiracy theories in the end because the system is still there.) which goes back to the capitalist philosophy of individualism. Also not only that it's also a black & white view of the world of "Us vs Them" (of course it's roots traces back to Christianity with the "Angels vs Demons" archetype).

[harte.beest]

Alot of conspiracy theories, end up being true

Don't you Remember,
The Fifth of November,
'Twas Gunpowder Treason Day,
I let off my gun,
And made'em all run.
And Stole all their Bonfire away.
(1742)

9 modern conspiracy theories that turned out to be true:



The Dreyfus Affair: In the late 1800s in France, Jewish artillery officer Alfred Dreyfus was wrongfully convicted of treason based on false government documents, and sentenced to life in prison. The French government did attempt to cover this up, but Dreyfus was eventually pardoned after the affair was made public (an act that is credited to writer Émile Zola).
The Mafia: This secret crime society was virtually unknown until the 1960s, when member Joe Valachi first revealed the society's secrets to law enforcement officials.
MK-ULTRA: In the 1950s to the 1970s, the CIA ran a mind-control project aimed at finding a "truth serum" to use on communist spies. Test subjects were given LSD and other drugs, often without consent, and some were tortured. At least one man, civilian biochemist Frank Olson, who was working for the government, died as a result of the experiments. The project was finally exposed after investigations by the Rockefeller Commission.
Operation Mockingbird: Also in the 1950s to '70s, the CIA paid a number of well-known domestic and foreign journalists (from big-name media outlets like Time, The Washington Post, The New York Times, CBS and others) to publish CIA propaganda. The CIA also reportedly funded at least one movie, the animated "Animal Farm," by George Orwell. The Church Committee finally exposed the activities in 1975.
Watergate: Republican officials spied on the Democratic National Headquarters from the Watergate Hotel in 1972. While conspiracy theories suggested underhanded dealings were taking place, it wasn't until 1974 that White House tape recordings linked President Nixon to the break-in and forced him to resign.
The Tuskegee Syphilis Study: The United States Public Health Service carried out this clinical study on 400 poor, African-American men with syphilis from 1932 to 1972. During the study the men were given false and sometimes dangerous treatments, and adequate treatment was intentionally withheld so the agency could learn more about the disease. While the study was initially supposed to last just six months, it continued for 40 years. Close to 200 of the men died from syphilis or related complications by the end of the study.

Operation Northwoods: In the early 1960s, American military leaders drafted plans to create public support for a war against Cuba, to oust Fidel Castro from power. The plans included committing acts of terrorism in U.S. cities, killing innocent people and U.S. soldiers, blowing up a U.S. ship, assassinating Cuban émigrés, sinking boats of Cuban refugees, and hijacking planes. The plans were all approved by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but were reportedly rejected by the civilian leadership, then kept secret for nearly 40 years.
The Iran-Contra Affair: In 1985 and '86, the White House authorized government officials to secretly trade weapons with the Israeli government in exchange for the release of U.S. hostages in Iran. The plot was uncovered by Congress in 1987.
1990 Testimony of Nayirah: A 15-year-old girl named "Nayirah" testified before the U.S. Congress that she had seen Iraqi soldiers pulling Kuwaiti babies from incubators, causing them to die. The testimony helped gain major public support for the 1991 Gulf War, but -- despite protests that the dispute of this story was itself a conspiracy theory -- it was later discovered that the testimony was false. It was actually the creation of public relations firm Hill & Knowlton for the purpose of promoting the Gulf War.
http://www.cracked.com/article_15974_7-insane-conspiracies-that-actually-happened.html


http://www.sixwise.com/newsletters/07/02/28/the-9-most-shocking-conspiracy-theories-that-turned-out-to-be-true.htm

[#FF0000]

I'm doubtful of the JFK assasination but, uh, that's been something I just sort of believed in the background for years and years and I haven't actually revisited that bit of history since high school.

[ComradeOm]

Alot of conspiracy theories, end up being trueA stopped clock is right twice a day. That the crazies are occasionally right (in that yes, sometimes people do conspire) does not excuse their wild and incoherent thinking

And from a brief scan of that list I can say that at least five of those items are not conspiracy theories or were not uncovered due to the work of conspiracy theorists. That the FBI denied the existence of the Mafia - something obvious to everyone else - does not a conspiracy make. The charge that the Mafia was "virtually unknown until the 1960s". The attempt to co-opt Zola, a man whose accusations were based on careful reasoning and evidence, into the ranks of the tinfoil hat brigade is almost insulting

[harte.beest]

A stopped clock is right twice a day. That the crazies are occasionally right (in that yes, sometimes people do conspire) does not excuse their wild and incoherent thinking

And from a brief scan of that list I can say that at least five of those items are not conspiracy theories or were not uncovered due to the work of conspiracy theorists. That the FBI denied the existence of the Mafia - something obvious to everyone else - does not a conspiracy make. The charge that the Mafia was "virtually unknown until the 1960s". The attempt to co-opt Zola, a man whose accusations were based on careful reasoning and evidence, into the ranks of the tinfoil hat brigade is almost insulting

Just because it's insulting doesn't mean that people weren't calling Emile Zola a nutjob, conspiracy theorist, and a member of "the tinfoil hat brigade" in his time. If operation northwoods, for example, had occurred and someone was screaming about how the US government really was the one who attacked us. Everyone would call them a conspiracy theorist nutjob. There is a chance some of these new conspiracy theories might be true, just because someone says the official explanation, does not match the facts, does not mean they automatically think there's a secret moon base, where the aliens are conspiring with godzilla, to turn us into zombie slaves to mine gold for their homeplanet..... etc

Also, the mafia might have been well known to people living in New york or Chicago but you can't say that people in Idaho, North Dakota, or even southern Illinois knew about the mafia. Al Capone's front man "Big Bill" was mayor of Chicago for gods sake, the primary had 62 political bombings, and the mafia still didn't "officially" exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineapple_Primary


I can just picture a homeless guy in Chicago, in the 1920's screaming about "an underground liquor and gun running, conspiracy that goes all the way to the mayor!". While everyone that listens just calls him a wackjob conspiracy theorist.

[La Comédie Noire]

There's tons of evidence in support of the mafia though, where as conspiracy theories like 9/11 being an inside job rely on nothing, but a laughably bad understanding of physics and edited sound bites of politicians.

Not to mention that the role of the mafia has indeed been exaggerated by pop culture and the participants themselves (both law enforcement and ex members of criminal syndicates)

[ComradeOm]

Just because it's insulting doesn't mean that people weren't calling Emile Zola a nutjob, conspiracy theorist, and a member of "the tinfoil hat brigade" in his timeThey weren't. They were calling him a seriously intellectual with the ability to make a coherent, reasoned and eloquent argument. Something entirely beyond most conspiracy theorists today. Indeed the conspiracy-peddlers in this case were the Anti-Dreyfusards with their belief in a grand Jewish/Freemason plot directed against France and, specifically, the officer corps

What you are doing is nothing less than wholesale historical burglary - appropriating anyone who challenged official cover-ups or scandals for the ranks of conspiracy nutjobs. This is nonsense. There is a difference between arriving at a conclusion through logic and reason, and the random cramming of irrelevant 'facts' and delusions that marks conspiracy theorists out. Woodward and Bernstein weren't conspiracy theorists: they were investigative journalists


Also, the mafia might have been well known to people living in New york or Chicago but you can't say that people in Idaho, North Dakota, or even southern Illinois knew about the mafia. Al Capone's front man "Big Bill" was mayor of Chicago for gods sake, the primary had 62 political bombings, and the mafia still didn't "officially" exist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pineapple_PrimaryWow, a conspiracy that half the US was in. Impressive :rolleyes:

There was no 'Mafia conspiracy' for a 'homeless guy in Chicago to scream about'. That's a figment of your imagination. What there was was denialism in the US government on an issue that was increasingly obvious to all. The Mafia featured in movies, TV shows and books throughout the 1950s and 1960s (ie, before Hoover's retirement and the introduction of RICO). Newspapers lambasted the FBI for not acknowledging something that was clear as day existed. Some conspiracy

Yet just because the US government didn't accept, erroneously, the existence of large-scale organised crime you perceive some vast conspiracy to keep the Mafia secret? Typical conspiracy theory rubbish: makes no sense and has the facts wrong

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Any official report of any incident, is a conspiracy theory.

[Yazman]

Moderator action:

I've seen enough spam and worthless posts in here that I'm ready to start issuing infractions. If I see one more post that doesn't contribute to this thread in a meaningful way, you're getting an infraction.

This is a warning that applies within this thread. Keep on topic, and make sure your posts contribute. Before you post, think - does my post contribute to somebody's education or the subject matter at hand in a meaningful way, or does it ask a serious question I want to know the answer to?

If the answer is no - don't post.

[cyu]

1990 Testimony of Nayirah: A 15-year-old girl named "Nayirah" testified before the U.S. Congress that she had seen Iraqi soldiers pulling Kuwaiti babies from incubators, causing them to die. The testimony helped gain major public support for the 1991 Gulf War, but -- despite protests that the dispute of this story was itself a conspiracy theory -- it was later discovered that the testimony was false. It was actually the creation of public relations firm Hill & Knowlton for the purpose of promoting the Gulf War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_%28testimony%29

The Nayirah testimony was given before the non-governmental Congressional Human Rights Caucus on October 10, 1990 by a woman who provided only her first name, Nayirah. In 1992, it was revealed that she was the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the United States. al-Sabah's testimony has come to be regarded as a classic example of modern atrocity propaganda.

Nayirah stated that she had witnessed Iraqi soldiers take babies out of incubators, take the incubators, and leave the babies to die.

Her story was corroborated by Amnesty International and testimony from evacuees.

Amnesty International later issued a retraction.

Most reporters, having apparently been burned by Hill & Knowlton's handiwork in spreading the original Nayirah story without checking it out, seem to prefer to let the story fade away, passively falling, once again, for the company's public relations guile. at the time, it was the most sophisticated and expensive PR campaign ever run in the U.S. by a foreign government.