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Crux
4th June 2012, 14:03
I was going to post this in the antifa forum, but uh fash will be fash, what's more worrying is the attitude of the so called "Left front". Read on and you will see what I mean.

Moscow CWI supporter targeted by fascists

www.socialistworld (http://www.<b>socialistworld</b>).net, 01/06/2012
website of the committee for a workers' international, CWI

Far right ejected from protest against police repression
CWI reporters, Moscow
http://www.socialistworld.net/img/20120601Grafik8750504894055740006.jpg

Please send messages of solidarity
On 26 May, the Russian CWI together with a number of activists from the “OccupyAbai” movement organized a legal demonstration against police repression in central Moscow’s Pushkin Square. It attracted about 400 people. The main reason for the action was to protest the continuously provocative actions by Moscow’s police, the latest example of which was the attack made on the mass demonstration on 6 May. This demonstration was part of the huge ongoing protest movement calling for the ouster of Russian president Vladimir Putin, whose rule is increasingly recognized by the public as corrupt and thuggish.
Apart from the CWI, a number of other groups participated in an organized way – amongst others, the Russian Communist Workers Party, the Libertarian Party, the Moscow Radical Feminists, and the Rainbow Association. There also were a number of anarchists and other activists from “OccupyAbai”.

Members of the CWI pointed out in their speeches that the current actions of the police are an attempt by the authorities to demonstrate their strength in preparation for the coming social explosion. While some of the speakers spoke of the need to flood the police chief and prosecutor’s office with complaints about individual police actions, we pointed out that the ordinary police themselves will suffer from the looming cuts and that we would be better off agitating for the rank and file to join trade unions and participate in the fight against poverty and the dictate of capital.
Unfortunately there were quite a few far-right Russian ultra-nationalists in the crowd. At the beginning of the protest an organized group of far-right-wingers turned up. They had a banner reading “Freedom-Nation-Order” and began to distribute leaflets in the name of the party “A Great Russia”. These leaflets called for the release of far-right extremists from prison, the establishment of a “national dictatorship” and praised as a hero the former Russian army officer Budanov, who had raped and killed a Chechen teenager.

Naturally we were not prepared to see such leaflets distributed at our protest and asked those distributing to leave. After arguments ensued, they went outside the police fence, where they carried on their provocations. After they unfurled their banner again, the police detained them. Those that were left went around the press complaining that the organisers had stitched them up to the police. They weren’t able to further disrupt the demo, however.

These far-right ultra-nationalists have attempted to latch on like parasites to the recent wave of mass protests calling for “national unity” against the supposed “regime of occupation”. But this can only be interpreted as the unity of the workers and poor with the rich and powerful, just because they are Russian. But by putting out these calls they frighten from the protests many others – including the national minorities, migrant workers, women, and sexual minorities. Indeed, on the first of the mass protests the liberal platform speakers were welcoming the presence of the ultra-right in the name of unity whilst these same self-appointed storm troopers were going through the crowd physically attacking LGBT activists. Those who keep arguing for unity with these ultra-rights are closing the gate on the potential participation of literally millions of working people of other nationalities.

Fight the far right!

Over the past years, dozens of journalists, social and trade union activists have been physically attacked by these fascists. Several have been killed, including former Youth Against Racism in Europe (YRE) member Stas Markelov, whose murder is now marked annually by an anti-fascist demonstration. In addition, hundreds of migrants and national minorities fall victim to these murderous brutes every year

Unfortunately many of the so-called lefts have proved to be the fascists’ best friends. Supporters of Sergei Udaltsov’s so-called Left Front came up to us at the demo and screeched that we should not have asked the ultra-right to leave. “We don’t agree with the nationalists”, they argue, “but we are friends with them!” After the police detained some of the nationalists, members of the Left Front went to picket the police station demanding their release. The Left Front has since stated publically that they had nothing to do with kicking the nationalists off of the square. We for our part repeat “that in the struggle against the policies and repression of the bourgeois regime, there can be no unity but class unity”.
Now the cyberspace is full of calls to seek out CWI member Konstantin Cumni “for giving up our lads to the police”. Whilst the threats are coming from the far right, the “liberals” are jumping on the band wagon, calling for the CWI to be banned from further protests. Many of those in the leadership of the left organisations, undoubtedly unwilling to break with their new ultra-right friends, prefer to keep quiet.

Fortunately most of those who take part in the mass protests have a different opinion. In December, when the CWI and LGBT activists had to repeatedly fight off the attacks of the far-right, ordinary protesters joined in to help. Again on 6 June, when the far-right attacked the CWI column, we were able to rebuff the attack with little difficulty.
Neither Konstantin, nor the CWI are on the retreat. This weekend sees the now annual “March for Equality”, started on the CWI’s initiative and uniting women, LGBT, and social activists. It is usual for gangs of rabid reactionaries to gather in an attempt to attack this march. In another week, we have the next of the mass anti-Putin demonstrations. We will continue to argue our case for these protests to have a left face, to argue for social justice and genuine democracy and for the unity of working people of all nationalities in the struggle against this dictatorial regime.

Please send messages of support to Kostya on [email protected] ([email protected]) with copies to [email protected] ([email protected]).

Crux
4th June 2012, 14:15
Of course, given the russian fascists history of murdering people there is no reason not to take the threats against comrade Kostya seriously either.
Which again puts the Left Front "we are friends with the fascists"...I mean I don't even know what to say to that. Edit: Okay now I know. Fucking Quislings.

Geiseric
4th June 2012, 16:41
They're fascist trash, and the Left Front needs to be condemned universally by everybody for tolerating them.

Sasha
4th June 2012, 16:48
who/what is the left front?

edit: according to wiki its a.o. AIM and they are supposedly allied to Autonomus Action (wtf?) i hope at least the AA isnt against kicking away the fash...

Sinister Cultural Marxist
4th June 2012, 17:21
After the police detained some of the nationalists, members of the Left Front went to picket the police station demanding their release. The Left Front has since stated publically that they had nothing to do with kicking the nationalists off of the square. We for our part repeat “that in the struggle against the policies and repression of the bourgeois regime, there can be no unity but class unity”.

So to this so-called left-front, the CWI is wrong for not standing in solidarity with a group which itself refuses to stand in solidarity with gays, Chechens, immigrants ... what do they think those minorities aren't in the working class too? This "left front" is behaving no better than the fascists themselves by encouraging their participation at protests. They must have some sloppy theorists or something.

Crux
4th June 2012, 18:29
who/what is the left front?

edit: according to wiki its a.o. AIM and they are supposedly allied to Autonomus Action (wtf?) i hope at least the AA isnt against kicking away the fash...
I think they include RCWP, AKM1917 and a bunch of others. A group of former members of our group, now calling themselfes Socialist Movement and the official affiliate of the USFI, have joined up as well I believe. They placed themselfes out of our org because they took a russian nationalist-lite position on the russian georgian war as well as thinking calls for nationalization being "too radical". But this is beyond spineless opportunism. Oh and, no suprise perhaps, DNZ likes them.

Geiseric
4th June 2012, 19:55
How can you not see that as an imperialist conflict?

Dire Helix
4th June 2012, 20:43
They must have some sloppy theorists or something.

Well, there`s a reason why it`s called Left Front after all. It`s not a party of Leninist type and just like many organizations of this sort(various broadly anti-capitalist fronts and coalitions around the world) it lacks any solid structure, party discipline and coherent ideology, let alone theorists. Nor is it connected to working class or even tries to establish such connections. Left Front is a collection of people united by their dislike of the current regime in Russia. Most of them are left-leaning, but there seem to be some mildly nationalist elements as well. Generally speaking, Left Front is a bit of everything.

Crux
4th June 2012, 21:33
How can you not see that as an imperialist conflict?
they caved to the general nationalist mood at that time, I suppose an analogy would be the left groups that took a wishywashy position on the invasion of afghanistan or more recently with libya. It bears keeping in mind also that their position was hardly uncommon on the russian left. It takes some backbone to stand against the stream, which they lacked. So good riddance. It's "interesting" though hardly suprising that they're now in the USFI. And the "Left front".

Die Neue Zeit
5th June 2012, 03:26
I think they include RCWP, AKM1917 and a bunch of others [...] Oh and, no suprise perhaps, DNZ likes them.

Putting words in my mouth again, are we? :rolleyes:

The Left Front's activity is worth the support with criticism.

My stances on the mixed demonstrations are as follows:

1) No Platform, which you're suggesting, doesn't work.
2) "Fight the far right" is way more effective when taking this form:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=picture&groupid=552&pictureid=6325

That applies to anti-homophobia efforts as well as anti-racist ones. The Left Front has yet to do this.


Most of them are left-leaning, but there seem to be some mildly nationalist elements as well. Generally speaking, Left Front is a bit of everything.


they caved to the general nationalist mood at that time

Renewed unity on the former Soviet space isn't "nationalist," even if it is based on the vindicated unitary RSFSR model of 1922 Stalin and not on the unstable federal model of Lenin.

Crux
5th June 2012, 13:08
Putting words in my mouth again, are we? :rolleyes:

The Left Front's activity is worth the support with criticism.

My stances on the mixed demonstrations are as follows:

1) No Platform, which you're suggesting, doesn't work.
2) "Fight the far right" is way more effective when taking this form:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?do=picture&groupid=552&pictureid=6325

That applies to anti-homophobia efforts as well as anti-racist ones. The Left Front has yet to do this.





Renewed unity on the former Soviet space isn't "nationalist," even if it is based on the vindicated unitary RSFSR model of 1922 Stalin and not on the unstable federal model of Lenin.
See I don't need to put words in your mouth, nor would I want to. But thanks for clarifying my point further.

As for your proposed tactic, how about a little context to that picture:
"In 1932, the Comintern ordered the Communists to cooperate with the Nazis against the Social Democrats, so Ulbricht and Joseph Goebbels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels) (the Nazi Gauleiter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauleiter) for Berlin) both urged their respective constituents to support the Berlin transport workers' strike in November 1932. At an event arranged by the Nazi Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party) in January 1931, Ulbricht was allowed to deliver a speech.Subsequently, Goebbels delivered his own speech. The attempt at discussion became the opposite of friendly, and a struggle between Nazis and Communists began: police officers divided them. Both sides had tried to use this event for their election propaganda."

So your politics are as horrible as always, thanks for reminding us, in fact that is why I used used your liking of the Left Front as a further indication of their, shall we say, limitations. So you critically support the Left Front and think we should ally with Nazi's in order to be able to make speeches to them? Of course it is quite possible you were entirely unaware of the context of that image, which also says something about your politics. But giving you the benefit of the doubt and assume you did not just find a pretty picture and was completely unaware, if the above does indeed represent your postion re the far right (and racism and homophobia) you should in, my opinion, be banned.

Anyway I doubt you will provide anything fruitfull to this discussion and I was only using you as a byline. I mean I notice your complete lack of mention of say the very real fascist threat against our comrades and the very real beyond the pale attitude of the Left Front, instead you are off in Lala land as usual or really calling for even worse tactics, congrats. So you can go play there while slightly more serious discussions are being had. Bye.

Die Neue Zeit
5th June 2012, 14:03
As for your proposed tactic, how about a little context to that picture:
"In 1932, the Comintern ordered the Communists to cooperate with the Nazis against the Social Democrats, so Ulbricht and Joseph Goebbels (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Goebbels) (the Nazi Gauleiter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauleiter) for Berlin) both urged their respective constituents to support the Berlin transport workers' strike in November 1932. At an event arranged by the Nazi Party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Party) in January 1931, Ulbricht was allowed to deliver a speech.Subsequently, Goebbels delivered his own speech. The attempt at discussion became the opposite of friendly, and a struggle between Nazis and Communists began: police officers divided them. Both sides had tried to use this event for their election propaganda."

So? If it does devolve into a brawl, then so be it. It can be pointed out that the fash started it, and that there was an organized left defense. The point is to try to persuade fash sympathizers away from their tendencies, not to drive them further into the arms of the fash activists.

http://vimeo.com/13128522

Mike Macnair sums up the discussion during the 'Bash the fash?' fringe meeting at Marxism 2010. He argues that some of the Trotskyist comrades in the audience, such as members of the International Bolshevik Tendency and Socialist Fight, are actually defending a Stalinist, popular frontist position.

Also, if you weren't so ignorant of the SPD's "Democratic Front" antics with the libs, cons, and nationalists, you'd reconsider Trotsky's ignorant criticisms.

The Nazi support for the strike was their prerogative.


So you critically support the Left Front and think we should ally with Nazi's in order to be able to make speeches to them?

Again, putting words in my mouth. :rolleyes:

Contemporarily speaking, the Left Front isn't collaborating with the nationalists for joint demonstrations or anything. What it isn't doing, either, is getting the word out criticizing their stance and plucking away sympathizers from them.

If there come fash attacks, of course a fightback is required.

Crux
5th June 2012, 15:28
So? If it does devolve into a brawl, then so be it. It can be pointed out that the fash started it, and that there was an organized left defense. The point is to try to persuade fash sympathizers away from their tendencies, not to drive them further into the arms of the fash activists.

http://vimeo.com/13128522

Mike Macnair sums up the discussion during the 'Bash the fash?' fringe meeting at Marxism 2010. He argues that some of the Trotskyist comrades in the audience, such as members of the International Bolshevik Tendency and Socialist Fight, are actually defending a Stalinist, popular frontist position.

Also, if you weren't so ignorant of the SPD's "Democratic Front" antics with the libs, cons, and nationalists, you'd reconsider Trotsky's ignorant criticisms.

The Nazi support for the strike was their prerogative.



Again, putting words in my mouth. :rolleyes:

Contemporarily speaking, the Left Front isn't collaborating with the nationalists for joint demonstrations or anything. What it isn't doing, either, is getting the word out criticizing their stance and plucking away sympathizers from them.

If there come fash attacks, of course a fightback is required.
Ah I forget, so both ignorant and horrible politics? Sorry I am not debating Macnair, I am debating you. And seeing as you aknowledge that I read you correctly I think this debate is settled. Your arguments are mired in ignorance of history and your usual obscurantism but the core is undeniable. Your "criticism" of the left front is almost, which I did not know was possible, worse than the left front. But since it is highly unlikely that you've ever engaged in any actual politics petty things like very real physical threats from fascists, especially in russia, is apparently beyond your grasp. Or perhaps beneath your attention since you're caught up in your own "theory making". You've already exposed yourself enough to illustrate my original point. I should have guessed your selfabsorbtion would bring you here if I mentioned your name. Other people come here outraged at the Left Front's collaboration with the fash or perhaps to express solidarity with the comrades being threatened by fascists. Your presence in this thread is not needed nor welcome. Bye.

Crux
5th June 2012, 15:36
If you have any more claims to make please post them in Learning. Preferably under headings like "who are the Left Front?", "what does the Popular Front mean?" "What was the politics of the komintern and the KPD in the 30's?"

Die Neue Zeit
6th June 2012, 02:21
Ah I forget, so both ignorant and horrible politics? Sorry I am not debating Macnair, I am debating you.

Get a mirror. Typical debate ignorance starts with not reading the materials inspiring one's debate opponent.


And seeing as you acknowledge that I read you correctly I think this debate is settled.

No you didn't. You said "should ally with Nazis," and I rebutted your twisted words.


If you have any more claims to make please post them in Learning. Preferably under headings like "who are the Left Front?", "what does the Popular Front mean?" "What was the politics of the komintern and the KPD in the 30's?"

All I see here is the CWI's Russian fan club, perhaps thankfully, being on the sidelines of anti-government action while other, less economistic tendencies are out there organizing explicitly political action.

Crux
6th June 2012, 12:02
Get a mirror. Typical debate ignorance starts with not reading the materials inspiring one's debate opponent.



No you didn't. You said "should ally with Nazis," and I rebutted your twisted words.



All I see here is the CWI's Russian fan club, perhaps thankfully, being on the sidelines of anti-government action while other, less economistic tendencies are out there organizing explicitly political action.
yes, by allying with fascists. There comes a time when you can't just appeal to ignorance, when it's not just "bad politics". I'm not debating Macnair nor do I need to. You came into this thread defending the so called Left Front, and russian nationalism, which can not be read as anything other than approval of their actions. And then you went on to defend one of the single most disastorous policies of the KPD in the 30's, namely them allying, or attempting to on orders from Moscow, with the Nazi's in a strike.
And now you finish it off by directly attacking the russian CWI. Again at some point your ignorance and obscurant language will stop working as an excuse. I can't judge your arguments on the merit of what you think you mean but what you are actually saying. Like in the face of very real fascist threats you not only defend the fascists "friends" but directly attack the comrades in the CWI. Luckily, unlike the Left Front, your political relevance is nil. But you deserve as much condemnation.

Geiseric
6th June 2012, 21:13
Where does the idea among opportunists come that somehow Nazis and Communists are alike? At this point, my guess is that their logic would be, "We're both against the government (the bourgeois parliamentary government) so we should ally to overthrow it!" But that's rediculous, since the former represents simply a new form of capitalist class rule.

Anyways, while a united front on several issues may be fought with "The Left Front," with a communist party, probably simply on the point of anti fascism, I'd of thought that after the experiance of World War 2 that we'd of learned what exactly fascism is and what its relationship is to the workers movement, namely a deadly one.

Crux
6th June 2012, 22:37
Where does the idea among opportunists come that somehow Nazis and Communists are alike? At this point, my guess is that their logic would be, "We're both against the government (the bourgeois parliamentary government) so we should ally to overthrow it!" But that's rediculous, since the former represents simply a new form of capitalist class rule.

Anyways, while a united front on several issues may be fought with "The Left Front," with a communist party, probably simply on the point of anti fascism, I'd of thought that after the experiance of World War 2 that we'd of learned what exactly fascism is and what its relationship is to the workers movement, namely a deadly one.
I think in part the answer is simply a lack of backbone but also the widespread nationalism and homophobia in russian society in general but also in the left. When the main "left" party is KPRF with it's open flirtations with homophobia, nationalism and xenophobia that says something about the messed up state of the russian left in general. Perhaps I shouldn't have been, but I was, chocked by the so called left front's actions.