Dangerous drugs in a socialist society

[Questionable]

I was reading about "bath salts," the name of the drug that supposedly caused the recent face-eating incident in Miami, and it got me wondering about how dangerous drugs like that would be handled in a socialist society would be handled. Obviously stuff like marijuana is harmless and just a way to get people in prison and make money, but what about stuff like heroin and bath salts that has a serious negative effect on people?

[Tenka]

I'm sure most people who use 'bath salts' don't eat others' faces; just like how most people who smoke weed don't develop paranoid schizophrenia: BOTH TOTALLY SAFE.

In all seriousness this is a complicated topic; thanks, I guess, for bringing it up. I'll leave it to the more knowledgeable.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Well, here is an analogy for you. Before the ban on alcohol, the intense and very toxic moonshine did not exist because there was regulation and oversight over the production of alcohol. I think it is interesting that drugs like meth and "bath salts" are close to non-existent in countries that have either decriminalized or legalized drugs such as a place like Amsterdam. When something like drugs is made illegal, then all oversight is lost on production and distribution of such drugs and this can allow for "bath salts" to develop where if it was decriminalized or legalized than it can be regulated, etc.

Also, I can bring up the whole "you can't regulate morality" thing but that argument has been made over and over.

This actually has a lot of relevance to me. I have family members who are addicts and I myself use marijuana occasionally (about once every week or 2 weeks, although in high school I smoked like 5 times every day:D).

[Prometeo liberado]

You must go after the causes of consumption. And if you think that even Pot is harmless then we have a whole new thread to start. A socialist society would pretty much do the exact opposite of what is being done now. Criminalizing only serves the prison-industrial complex at the expense of healthcare, education and countless other needs that socialism would deem a priority(and no not "money for..instead of prisons"). Treatment works.

[Questionable]

Okay, thanks for the hasty and helpful responses, but I should have been more specific.

People who are addicted to drugs can get help for free in a socialist society, and the individual small-time dealers who are more or less forced into the situation by their economic situation would have no reason to sell drugs since they could be put to work for the betterment of society, but what about people who legitimately enjoy and/or benefit from producing and distributing drugs? I'm talking the big-time criminal organizations that benefit from selling drugs, or the people that take drugs for fun. What do we do about the people who don't want to see the problem fixed? Treat them as any other counter-revolutionary?

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Okay, thanks for the hasty and helpful responses, but I should have been more specific.

People who are addicted to drugs can get help for free in a socialist society, and the individual small-time dealers who are more or less forced into the situation by their economic situation would have no reason to sell drugs since they could be put to work for the betterment of society, but what about people who legitimately enjoy and/or benefit from producing and distributing drugs? I'm talking the big-time criminal organizations that benefit from selling drugs, or the people that take drugs for fun. What do we do about the people who don't want to see the problem fixed? Treat them as any other counter-revolutionary?

As for the people in the bolded section, leave them alone.

Trust me, addicts aren't taking drugs because they find them "fun".

[Deicide]

Anyone here straightedge?

[Questionable]

As for the people in the bolded section, leave them alone.

Trust me, addicts aren't taking drugs because they find them "fun".

I'm not very into drugs at all, so I'm sure I'm saying some stupid stuff that's just totally untrue, but I'm just trying to understand better. By "for fun," I guess I was referring to more of the party scene, like people who take ecstasy or LSD in rave clubs, although now that I think about it that probably wouldn't be that big of an issue anyway.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I'm not very into drugs at all, so I'm sure I'm saying some stupid stuff that's just totally untrue, but I'm just trying to understand better. By "for fun," I guess I was referring to more of the party scene, like people who take ecstasy or LSD in rave clubs, although now that I think about it that probably wouldn't be that big of an issue anyway.

Yeah, I don't think it would be such a big deal as to put men and resources into the problem like is being done now.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

Anyone here straightedge?

Oh god no! :D

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Any drug no matter how mild can be dangerous in sufficient dosages, frequency and depending upon whom it's given too and how.

[Prometeo liberado]

Okay, thanks for the hasty and helpful responses, but I should have been more specific.

Note taken. In the future I'll give all your posts a one hour lag time.;) The way you posed your question, IMO, leaves to many what ifs to take into consideration. All I would add is that you would, after considerable time of revolutionary thought and action to take hold, have a considerable new set of dynamics and priorities to factor in. I doubt that ones personal freedom to get high would rank as immediately needed on a short list. So long as the collective is not in detriment and those who choose to get high in a community approved way do so while still contributing. Would these people form their own societies? Again, we are not even close to understanding the new material conditions which may govern this. Please wait one hour before responding.

[Questionable]

Note taken. In the future I'll give all your posts a one hour lag time.;) The way you posed your question, IMO, leaves to many what ifs to take into consideration. All I would add is that you would, after considerable time of revolutionary thought and action to take hold, have a considerable new set of dynamics and priorities to factor in. I doubt that ones personal freedom to get high would rank as immediately needed on a short list. So long as the collective is not in detriment and those who choose to get high in a community approved way do so while still contributing. Would these people form their own societies? Again, we are not even close to understanding the new material conditions which may govern this. Please wait one hour before responding.

I'm not sure if you were being sarcastic, but that one hour wait time is actually a good idea since I usually sit around thinking about a post I made and think "Dammit! I wish I'd said this, too!"

And in case there was any confusion, I also wasn't trying to blame my vague original post on you guys by any means. It was my own fault for not being specific.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I was reading about "bath salts," the name of the drug that supposedly caused the recent face-eating incident in Miami, and it got me wondering about how dangerous drugs like that would be handled in a socialist society would be handled. Obviously stuff like marijuana is harmless and just a way to get people in prison and make money, but what about stuff like heroin and bath salts that has a serious negative effect on people?

I'm against giving moral designations to drugs - a narcotic is medicine if a doctor gives it out, but the same thing is dangerous when sold on the street? That being said, obviously some drugs (even forms of the drug or different doses of it) can have various risks involved and potential for harm. But I still reject the "good/bad" drug designation because most of the time in our society there's a lot of class-bias or racial baggage connected to that view of street-drugs.

As for this particular case - I have no experience or knowledge of this substance. I'm sure this is an outrageous and extreme case, but like I said, some drugs have more potential for risk, so it's hard to say what typical reactions are. The media has been describing it as a hallucinogen and compared it to LSD but also perhaps more like PCP in effects (more paranoia according to the newspapers). So the first thing that stands out to me about this particular drug is that people are taking it not for the actual effect, but the intended similarity to a more common but illegal drug, LSD, Shrooms etc. If these other drugs were decriminalized and available as Bath Salts (in specialty "head" shops) would people choose to do a drug that has similar effects but (if the hype is correct) more prone to paranoia and aggressive reactions? Maybe some would prefer it, but probably not if it actually disorients people and makes them want to eat faces.

[Sasha]

I was reading about "bath salts," the name of the drug that supposedly caused the recent face-eating incident in Miami, [...] bath salts that has a serious negative effect on people?

"bathsalts" are not nearly as dangerous as the media makes them out to be... (neither is heroin btw)
http://jezebel.com/5914694/this-is-your-brain-on-bath-salts-what-its-like-to-do-the-scary-drug-du-jour

[ed miliband]

oh, so "bath salts" were, until recently, being sold as legal alternatives to mdma? i've see a fair bit of mxe and mephedrone snorting and, erm... no face eating to report.

[Jimmie Higgins]

"bathsalts" are not nearly as dangerous as the media makes them out to be... (neither is heroin btw)
http://jezebel.com/5914694/this-is-your-brain-on-bath-salts-what-its-like-to-do-the-scary-drug-du-jourThanks, that article clarifying and confirmed many of my suspicions.

[Crux]

Tbh I find that many people who argue that legalization will make the narcotics industry all nice and dandy are dangerously close to sound like naive market liberals. Yeah I know the question was "in a socialist society", but could you be a bit more specific with that? Now I am not opposed to legalization, but take one quick look at the perfectly legal pharmacuticals industry and you'll realize it might not be as simple.
Portugal is interesting and I wish I knew more about how it works there, but you know there is no simple or easy solution to this under capitalism. Just saying.

[campesino]

warning labels

[Pretty Flaco]

people take hardcore drugs cus they need an escape

[Yuppie Grinder]

"bathsalts" are not nearly as dangerous as the media makes them out to be... (neither is heroin btw)
http://jezebel.com/5914694/this-is-your-brain-on-bath-salts-what-its-like-to-do-the-scary-drug-du-jour

Heroin is terribly dangerous. I don't know how you could argue otherwise.

[L.A.P.]

although in high school I smoked like 5 times every day:D).

So I'm not alone

[Pretty Flaco]

Heroin is terribly dangerous. I don't know how you could argue otherwise.

heroin fucks you. a lot of drugs like that make people go crazy. i dont know much about bath salts though. does anyone know what kind of drugs it's like?

[Sasha]

Heroin is terribly dangerous. I don't know how you could argue otherwise.

No, the social stigma of heroin addiction, its costs and the criminalisation of its use are really dangerous. Since we in the Netherlands started a free heroin project for hardcore addicts we have to build special elderly homes for them. The methadone you usually get to treat your heroin addiction is way more dangerous than heroin itself, yes its a bit more more addictive, but its far less lethal..
I know rich addicts that are hooked for 30 years and are in better shape than I am, I know poor adicts that are hooked for only months that are dying. Fatality of opiate addiction is a class issue not inherent to drug itselfs.

[Brosa Luxemburg]

I have had 3 family members die from heroin overdose or chocking on their vomit after using.

It is a dangerous drug.

[Sasha]

yet its fatality when removed from social factors is lower than alcohol, fynethyl is way more potent than heroin yet the countless rich doctors hooked to it do not die from it far from how many poor junkies die from heroin. the danger of heroin is the fluxuating potency of the cut on the streetmarket and the high price that leads users to fail to take care of themselves beyond the fix, not the drug itself. is it a nightmare to be hooked on it? yes ofcourse, but its a nightmare when your poor under capitalism, not much different than gamble addiction. fysiologicaly well dosed opiates are not that damaging to your health system, its the overdosing and the starvation meets neglect of your general healthcare that kills poor addicts. is heroin a common demoniator in that, absolutely, but blaiming it all on the drug and nothing on capitalism is just plain wrong.

[Rafiq]

Splendid! Another 'Socialist Society' thread! (:rolleyes:)

On a Semi related note, I have no fucking clue why there's any sort of hype over the face eating man in Miami. Is this the first time people have heard of cannabilism?

You know, people who carry out murders, psychologically damaged people in particular, probably have ate, somewhere along the line, a bottle of Pepsi. Is Pepsi now to blame for the specific murder?

The fact of the matter is that whatever compelled the so called "Drug motivated murderers" has to be something different from the simple act of taking the drugs themselves. How do we know this guy wasn't fucked up in the head, and he took drugs as a response to this, and not a cause of it? We don't. Chances are, that's the case, anyway.

[Luc]

Anyone here straightedge?

yo! :cool:

[Turinbaar]

I agree with the analogy made of the poisonous ethanol drinks that killed entire speakeasies during the prohibition era. If this drug is as dangerous as reported, (and I have heard of many more incidents of this type involving bath salts), then its psychotic making effects will become self-discrediting, and the lifting of the drug war would likely do for them what the twenty first amendment did for the poisonous booze. If they remain a popular thing, then they can be restricted. Psycho's link shows testimony for mild pharmaceutical utility that can be exploited for benefit if properly regimented by a doctor. A socialist society would have strict controls and public education (not hysterical propaganda) on all hard drugs through a socialized medicine system. Furthermore the drugs produced in a socialist society would not operate on the capitalist production model of expansion for expansion's sake, and would instead follow the consumption needs of the health system, thus you would not get a bath salt "epidemic" as was experienced historically with gin, opium, and crack.

[Sasha]

Splendid! Another 'Socialist Society' thread! (:rolleyes:)

On a Semi related note, I have no fucking clue why there's any sort of hype over the face eating man in Miami. Is this the first time people have heard of cannabilism?

You know, people who carry out murders, psychologically damaged people in particular, probably have ate, somewhere along the line, a bottle of Pepsi. Is Pepsi now to blame for the specific murder?

The fact of the matter is that whatever compelled the so called "Drug motivated murderers" has to be something different from the simple act of taking the drugs themselves. How do we know this guy wasn't fucked up in the head, and he took drugs as a response to this, and not a cause of it? We don't. Chances are, that's the case, anyway.

Yes, thank you, as a wise man once said (that's me for the record); playing basketball does not make you taller....

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

legalise all drugs, catch illegal unauthorised drug dealers and send them to do real work. Have free rehab centers that are highly collectivist social experiments. Have extra funding programs for disabled, retarded or mentally ill persons and bad students to give them time and opportunities to mingle with others in a similar situatio or independently. Educate about "drugs", write labels with directions on all drugs and regulate hard drugs for prescription only. Have trials in schools for students to try different drugs and break stigmas; all drugs need to always be accesible but always regulated.

[ed miliband]

Splendid! Another 'Socialist Society' thread! (:rolleyes:)

On a Semi related note, I have no fucking clue why there's any sort of hype over the face eating man in Miami. Is this the first time people have heard of cannabilism?

You know, people who carry out murders, psychologically damaged people in particular, probably have ate, somewhere along the line, a bottle of Pepsi. Is Pepsi now to blame for the specific murder?

The fact of the matter is that whatever compelled the so called "Drug motivated murderers" has to be something different from the simple act of taking the drugs themselves. How do we know this guy wasn't fucked up in the head, and he took drugs as a response to this, and not a cause of it? We don't. Chances are, that's the case, anyway.

god kid, it must get fucking boring trying to view everything "scientifically". some naked homeless bloke ate another naked homeless blokes face off. that's fucked up and darkly comical. i think most people see it that way, but wow... i guess that's an idealist response and people who see it that way are liberal-utopian-chomskyists who will be sent to the gulag under yr rule.

[Rafiq]

god kid, it must get fucking boring trying to view everything "scientifically". some naked homeless bloke ate another naked homeless blokes face off. that's fucked up and darkly comical. i think most people see it that way, but wow... i guess that's an idealist response and people who see it that way are liberal-utopian-chomskyists who will be sent to the gulag under yr rule.

Yeah, we should just start slinging baseless, emotionally based shit, that of which is a direct exemplification of whatever eclectic nonsense goes on in your ideological unconscious.

[ed miliband]

do you get any enjoyment out of life or is that chomskyist-liberal-idealist-utopianism too?

[Rafiq]

do you get any enjoyment out of life or is that chomskyist-liberal-idealist-utopianism too?

Stop trolling and piss off. My personal life is none of your concern.

[ed miliband]

Stop trolling and piss off. My personal life is none of your concern.

yeah, sorry, but i do think your attempt to view everything in such an objective, scientific manner is a bit unhealthy. call me a spiritualist if you want, but i do think you should lighten up a little. maybe you're different in real life, and you're right, that's none of my business.

[Hit The North]

I'm talking the big-time criminal organizations that benefit from selling drugs, or the people that take drugs for fun. What do we do about the people who don't want to see the problem fixed? Treat them as any other counter-revolutionary?

1. Organised crime is an adjunct of capitalism and will be made impossible once we abolish capital.

2. People who take drugs for fun are taking them because drugs are fun. Why would having fun be considered a counter-revolutionary act in your utopia? Personally, I find your politics to be, yup, questionable.

Welcome to the revolution. Please leave your bourgeois morality at the door and come on in. :)

[Proukunin]

Mephedrone aka "Bath Salts" is not a hallucinatory drug at all. I've tried them first hand and while they are dangerous(i'll explain later)..they are not what the media makes them out to be. DO NOT believe them when they compare it to LSD. Mephedrone creates a feeling in the body that is equivalent to Ecstasy, Methamphetamine and maybe even Cocaine. They used to sell them at a Best Stop store down the road from my house for 25$ a bag. I along with 2 friends took some of it through the nostrils and about 20 minutes later started feeling the effects. I kid you not when I tell you that I felt very euphoric, happy and even thought clearer about the things in life that annoyed me, but at the same time a little scared of the potential of this new drug. I drove on them and the whole time I was very fidgety with my blinker and not watching the rode at all(actually not even caring about the road). I stayed up the whole night and maybe got a total of 2 hours of sleep.

I honestly do not think that this man ate another man's face off because he ingested bath salts..he would have had to have been on all kinds of drugs for this to happen unless he was already mentally unstable.

LSD on the other hand for people who have not tried it is a psychedelic drug that produces hallucinations similar to magic mushrooms and peyote. It was very big during the 1960's. LSD today is probably not even the same as it was during those Timothy Leary days as it is probably some form of compound like 2-CB or something related to it. I've been lucky enough to do it twice in my life and for those 8-10 hours I couldn't explain how much I enjoyed life and the people around me. I loved every aspect of the world and I never once felt any negative feelings.

Now, I don't support the use of Mephedrone as i've only done it once and it isn't something that attracts me. But I highly doubt what the media is portraying as some cannibal drug. They are doing the same thing to it as the media did to LSD in the 60's when they said it could instantly make you insane or jump out of windows..

They are so eager to drink their alcohol but anytime a substance comes up that makes you think about society and gets you 'high'..it is immediately frowned upon by our society.

Not everything that changes your consciousness is necessarily bad for you.

Scientific studies show LSD helps patients who are struggling with Cancer, or other life-threatening illnesses, to ease the metal stress and pain they have to deal with. Along with helping severe forms of depression.

Psilocybin aka Magic Mushrooms have been proven to cure cluster headaches and alcoholism.

[Sasha]

Mephedrone aka "Bath Salts" is not a hallucinatory drug at all.

(acording to the article i posted) in the US the name "bathsalts" is used for both meowmeow and MDPV...

(which i can see being a problem in itself, if you used meowmeow before and suddenly and unexpectedly you get something comepletly different it would freak me the fuck out too)

[ed miliband]

lol:

http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/stop-saying-the-miami-cannibal-was-on-bath-salts