For those of you who support Zionism and Israel and a Two State Solution for Israel/P

[tradeunionsupporter]

For those of you who support Zionism and Israel and a Two State Solution for Israel/Palestine if a people or even one person broke into your home house and or land farm or property and raped or killed you and your family or were trying to or they drove you out of your own house and let you back in and said we both can share this house you take one half I take the other half then we can share the kitchen would you accept this ? This seems immoral to me. The Israelis drove into refugee camps the Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims why is this a good thing ? I don't want the pre 1967 borders I want pre 1947 borders for Palestine. I call on the Americans to stop voting for American Politicians who are Puppets of Israel. The Israelis don't seem to want a two state solution they just pay lip service to the idea they are liars. The Israelis/Zionists/Jews have for years and still are occupying East Jerusalem the West Bank and the Gaza Strip the Israelis have occupied the Golden Heights Mount Sinai and Lebanon among other lands. Israel seeks a Greater Israel an Empire that the Bible talks about. It my view the State of Israel has no moral right to exist does anyone agree or disagree thank you ? In my view you can't be both pro Israel and pro Palestine at the sametime it is one or the other you can not be both.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-state_solution)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_refugee_camps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_refugee_camps)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...Greater_Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Movemen...Greater_Israel)


God promised the descendants of the prophet Abraham the 'Promised Land', why are Palestinians defying the Almighty's prophecy?

Finally, the exact borders of the "Promised Land" have not been geographically defined. The Biblical "Promise", which "God had granted to Abraham's descendants", covered the areas between the Nile River in Egypt and the Euphrates River in Iraq,
Does that imply that Israel's future borders eventually will span the borders of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and Southern Turkey?

http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story418.html (http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story418.html)

What is the meaning of your call for Muslims to take arms against America in particular, and what is the message that you wish to send to the West in general?
The call to wage war against America was made because America has spear-headed the crusade against the Islamic nation, sending tens of thousands of its troops to the land of the two Holy Mosques over and above its meddling in its affairs and its politics, and its support of the oppressive, corrupt and tyrannical regime that is in control. These are the reasons behind the singling out of America as a target. And not exempt of responsibility are those Western regimes whose presence in the region offers support to the American troops there. We know at least one reason behind the symbolic participation of the Western forces and that is to support the Jewish and Zionist plans for expansion of what is called the Great Israel. Surely, their presence is not out of concern over their interests in the region. ... Their presence has no meaning save one and that is to offer support to the Jews in Palestine who are in need of their Christian brothers to achieve full control over the Arab Peninsula which they intend to make an important part of the so called Greater Israel. ...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...interview.html (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...interview.html)

[tradeunionsupporter]

Please give your views or opinions on this subject thank you.

[Igor]

I don't think any piece of land is somehow especially tied to an ethnic group. This includes both the Palestinians and Israeli. I have no reason to oppose Jewish people living in the area myself, as long as you know, they keep that whole apartheid and ethnic violence thing at bay.

[wsg1991]

the crusade against the Islamic nation, ?

the most "Islamic" arab country in the region , Saudi Arabia , happens to be USA oldest and most valuable ally

[wsg1991]

my solution is to kick out second generation and new immigrants back where they came from , and any one who has double nationality , Palestinian Refuges granted right of return , and one secular state for all of them

although they have no right to be In Palestine , we can't choose where you were born ( for the rest of Israelis)

[SirBrendan]

Israel exists and has as much a right to exist as any nation. If we're going to start getting pissy about any nation which transplanted it self over or subjugated another nation, then I don't think there are any European nation that wouldn't have to sacrifice large chunks of their land.

Israel was formed by Britain, as Britain owned Palestine. It was not stolen by Israel; it was given by Britain. Anyone who calls for mass exodus or the abolition of a people's representation has zero moral high ground on the matter.

The reality is that Israel exists and a two-state solution is the only possible solution Palestine can hope for.

[Dean]

A region / province like Israel/Palestine is not a private home. The palestinians should have the right to return to their homeland, but that doesn't mean that others don't have a right to live in the region, whether they have a recent tradition of oppression or not.

[durhamleft]

Question for OP:

Do you support removing every white, black, latino etc citizen from the United States and returning it to being governed solely by native Americans?



History is history.

If we started moving down the line of kicking all Jews out of the Israeli state we would just end up committing atrocities ourselves.

Jews have as much of a right to live in that area of land as Palestinians.

[Red Rabbit]

I don't think anyone with a brain supports Zionism.


Sadly, quite a few people don't have brains.

[MustCrushCapitalism]

Theoretically, the best option is a one-(secular) state solution, but that's not happening, so I'd support a two state solution.

[Art Vandelay]

I support a stateless solution to the issue in question.

[wsg1991]

Question for OP:

Do you support removing every white, black, latino etc citizen from the United States and returning it to being governed solely by native Americans?



History is history.

If we started moving down the line of kicking all Jews out of the Israeli state we would just end up committing atrocities ourselves.

Jews have as much of a right to live in that area of land as Palestinians.

only Zionist \ Isrealis who have no way to go should stay ( specially third generations ) as people don't choose where they are born , others should get out

[Offbeat]

Zionism is incompatible with leftism, so you won't find much support for it here.

Israel exists and has as much a right to exist as any nation. If we're going to start getting pissy about any nation which transplanted it self over or subjugated another nation, then I don't think there are any European nation that wouldn't have to sacrifice large chunks of their land.

Israel was formed by Britain, as Britain owned Palestine. It was not stolen by Israel; it was given by Britain. Anyone who calls for mass exodus or the abolition of a people's representation has zero moral high ground on the matter.

The reality is that Israel exists and a two-state solution is the only possible solution Palestine can hope for.
As an anarchist, I naturally oppose all nations. However saying Israel has as much right to exist as any other nation is ignoring the crimes which it commits on a regular basis, which go far and beyond what many nation-states are culpable of. Israel has not merely transplanted itself over another nation, it has in doing so forcibly expelled hundreds of thousands of the original inhabitants of that land, and continues to treat those who remain as second-class citizens.

Also, how can you have :reda: symbols in your sig, yet advocate a two-state solution?

[Prometeo liberado]

This seems immoral to me

The reality is that Israel exists and a two-state solution is the only possible solution Palestine can hope for.

only jews who have no way to go should stay ( specially third generations ) as people don't choose where they are born , others should get out

Britain owned Palestine:confused:
This is still Revleft isn't it?
When do we close this thread?

[Art Vandelay]

:confused:
This is still Revleft isn't it?
When do we close this thread?

The pride of the revolutionary left in this thread.

[Princess Luna]

my solution is to kick out second generation and new immigrants back where they came from , and any one who has double nationality , Palestinian Refuges granted right of return , and one secular state for all of them

although they have no right to be In Palestine , we can't choose where you were born ( for the rest of Israelis)


only jews who have no way to go should stay ( specially third generations ) as people don't choose where they are born , others should get out

What the fuck? You even admit people don't chose were they are born, and yet you still support forcing people to leave based on their ethnicity?? Ethnicities/Races/Nationalities don't own land, the idea of it runs so contrary to leftism I am shocked to see people promoting it on Revleft.

[wsg1991]

What the fuck? You even admit people don't chose were they are born, and yet you still support forcing people to leave based on their ethnicity?? Ethnicities/Races/Nationalities don't own land, the idea of it runs so contrary to leftism I am shocked to see people promoting it on Revleft.

wow , the idea of kicking people out of their lands and let them live in slums and camps for more than 60 years should not be tolerated ,

i am shocked that some leftist support a population that murdered and kickout a native population so they can stay there , the idea of it runs so contrary to leftism I am shocked to see people promoting it on Revleft.

maybe i chose the wrong words , Isrealis who have any second nationality should leave the place , so it's rightful owners , returns

i am not the Islamist type btw , my problem with Zionism , not jews , and i chose the wrong word so i have change it

my solution is one secular state , for any Isreali left , Palestinian Christians , and Palestinian Muslims

[tradeunionsupporter]

I believe that Palestine should be free.

[Veovis]

A two-state solution would only give rise to a apartheid state/bantustan dynamic.

[Raúl Duke]

On this subject, ideally it would be nice for a one state called Palestine in that region where Jews and the rest live in idyllic harmony.

Practically, the two-state solution would be the best bet...but the reactionary elements within Israel (who are in control/ascendent) want to keep all the land and are doing a virtual genocide of Israelis through acts of violence and impoverishing the "Palestinian territories" in a hope that they die/leave so their settlers can claim the land.

[Eagle_Syr]

Alternate proposal: both the Jews and Palestinians are assimilated into Greater Syria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Syria

[NGNM85]

Zionism is incompatible with leftism, so you won't find much support for it here.

It's not incompatible with Leftism. It is incompatible with Anarchism, Marxism, etc.


As an anarchist, I naturally oppose all nations.

Agreed.


However saying Israel has as much right to exist as any other nation is ignoring the crimes which it commits on a regular basis,...

No, it isn't. All states are illegitimate. The United States sits on stolen land. Does the United States have the 'right to exist'? There's no reason to single out Israel.


which go far and beyond what many nation-states are culpable of.

You could say the same thing about the United States.


Israel has not merely transplanted itself over another nation, it has in doing so forcibly expelled hundreds of thousands of the original inhabitants of that land, and continues to treat those who remain as second-class citizens.

That's true.


Also, how can you have :reda: symbols in your sig, yet advocate a two-state solution?

This is not, in any way, fundamentally antithetical to Anarchism.

[Ocean Seal]

Obviously kicking the Jews out of Israel is insane, however, a one-state solution is necessary, otherwise state or not Palestine will suffer form Israeli aggression.

[l'Enfermé]

No, it isn't. All states are illegitimate. The United States sits on stolen land. Does the United States have the 'right to exist'? There's no reason to single out Israel.
The people from whom the land was stolen barely exists anymore, Native Americans/American Indians make up something like 1.5-2 percent of the American population.

Palestinians outnumber Israeli Jews 2-to-1. The comparison is ridiculous. In the currently unlikely scenario that the Palestinians are able to overthrow the yoke of the zionist-colonialists, it would be entirely up to them to decide the fate of Jewish colonialists residing in Palestine and I wouldn't blame them if it was decided to remove them back to their homelands in Europe, Asia, the Americas, etc. The whole thing wouldn't be so dissimilar from how about a million Pied-Noirs(European colonialists in Algeria)fled from Algeria when the Algerians secured their independence.

But this is all speculation. Under current circumstances which might not change for decades, a "two-state solution" is quite impossible. A one-state solution is even more unlikely. The only 2 currently possible outcomes are either even further Israeli encroachment on Palestinian lands and cultural and economic starvation of Palestinians, or a liberation of Palestine from Zionist yoke by Muslim tanks, and given that Israel will surely use it's nuclear arsenal in such a case, the second option is nearly impossible. The Palestinians won't be given a State, not even half a state or a quarter of a State and they have absolutely no means to win a state for themselves with.

[cynicles]

A two state solution wouldn't be the least bit practical, the Palestinians would go from being occupied to living in a completely unsovereign country that would only serve as an excuse for people in the west to go back to ignoring them while Israel sets up another puppet government, let's the Mossad have free reign and starts bombing them again. We can't just keep dividing the world into smaller and smaller states based on ethnicity and religion and expect that to solve are problems. It either doesn't address the issue or makes it worse.

[Tukhachevsky]

I created a similar thread in palestine section of the forum and would like to know others members opinions.

I'm making an academic research about migration and demographics in post-modernity, and it's surprising to see that many egyptians and jordanians were migrating to Palestine in 1910 and 1920, because of the mass migration of jews (skilled work and industry) and the foundation of Tel-Aviv. Many of these so called Palestinians are actually from others arab countries; and when people talk about Israel stealing palestinian lands they forget that Jordan took half of the british mandate, that is, half of the palestinian land.

[l'Enfermé]

I created a similar thread in palestine section of the forum and would like to know others members opinions.

I'm making an academic research about migration and demographics in post-modernity, and it's surprising to see that many egyptians and jordanians were migrating to Palestine in 1910 and 1920, because of the mass migration of jews (skilled work and industry) and the foundation of Tel-Aviv. Many of these so called Palestinians are actually from others arab countries; and when people talk about Israel stealing palestinian lands they forget that Jordan took half of the british mandate, that is, half of the palestinian land.
Fucking nonsense. The 1931 Palestinian census estimates that about 4,000 Arabs entered Palestine illegal, and that about 2% of Palestinian Muslims were born outside of Palestine. This myth is mere Zionist propaganda to back up the "land without a people" concept. The only evidence they have for it is the large population growth of Arabs between 1922 and 1931 in Palestine, which most credibly scholars attribute to undercounting in the 1922 Census. And regarding Jewish migration improving local economic conditions, which in turn caused Arabs to migrate to these areas also, that's nonsense, statistics show wherever the Jewish population increased the greatest, the Muslim population increased the least.

So yeah, even today, generations after they were forcefully expelled or forced to flee under threat of massacre from their homelands, almost every Palestinian knows exactly from which villages their families came from(even in cases where their villages were destroyed by the Zionist colonialists) and how long they lived there.

And I don't know what the fuck Jordan has to do with anything. If the Hashemites in Jordan stole half of Palestine, it's fine for the Zionists to steal the other half? And since you mention that, why don't you also mention how on June 5 1967 Israel attacked Egypt, Jordan and Syria with British-American tanks and French Planes without warning and tried to annex the West Bank, Gaza, the Egyptian Sinai and the Syrian Golan Heights?

[l'Enfermé]

most can trace their roots back at least 2 or 3 thousand years plus, in palestine.
Yeah, Palestinians seem to have more ancestry of the Pre-Jewish and Jewish(the whole complete Jewish expulsion from Palestine by the Romans thing is a myth, it's accepted by most serious, knowledgable sources that the Jewish inhabitans of Palestine converted to Christianity and later to Islam and assimilated into the ethnicities that conquered the area after Roman times) inhabitants of Palestine than the European Zionists that colonized Palestine in the late 19th and the 20th century.

[Comrade Trollface]

if a people or even one person broke into your home house and or land farm or property and raped or killed you and your family or were trying to or they drove you out of your own house and let you back in and said we both can share this house you take one half I take the other half then we can share the kitchen would you accept this? Worked for the Soviet Jews who immigrated to Germany after the fall of the USSR though, right?

You're leaving out the fact that at this point we're actually talking about the grandchildren of the people involved in the breaking in and killing and such. Also, Palestine is about the size of New Jersey, not a house. When you look at it in that light, it sounds more reasonable, don't it?

Now mind you, I'm a partisan of the no-state solution:star:

[Dean]

I created a similar thread in palestine section of the forum and would like to know others members opinions.

I'm making an academic research about migration and demographics in post-modernity, and it's surprising to see that many egyptians and jordanians were migrating to Palestine in 1910 and 1920, because of the mass migration of jews (skilled work and industry) and the foundation of Tel-Aviv. Many of these so called Palestinians are actually from others arab countries; and when people talk about Israel stealing palestinian lands they forget that Jordan took half of the british mandate, that is, half of the palestinian land.

Hard to think that there was a lot of migration by non-Jews to Palestine at that time for "jobs from the Jewish immigrants" since the Zionists were voluntarily excluding non-Jews from their Kibbutz and other firms, and "labor Zionism" as it was called included legislation that barred Jews from employing Arabs. Although Palestine (and Gaza in particular) had been an historically vibrant economy, so immigration was almost certainly an aspect of the multicultural system that was dominant before the exclusionary practices of Zionists took hold. I can't comment on other nations in the region, but considering how different legal regions tend to incentivize labor and capital movement across borders, disproportionate migration to and from Palestine under British Colonial rule and then Zionist rule is not particularly unbelievable. Just think about capital and labor flows across the US-Mexican border.

Israel stole Palestinian homelands because people were sumamrily expelled from their homes. It's not complicated. Families which have subsisted for centuries on the same plot of land are being uprooted to this day to ethnically cleanse Israel of all non-Jews.

Leftists worth their salt simply demand an equal footing for Palestinians in their historic homeland. Mass migration doesn't imply that people's homes are "illegitimate" - Jews have just as much right to live in the region as anyone else. We're just demanding that Arab, Christian and Jewish rights be equal for a change.

The fact that millions of Jews have migrated to Israel doesn't make their homes forfeit, so why should past migration make the homes of Arab migrants forfeit?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I support a stateless solution to the issue in question.

Indeed. Or failing that, I'm hoping an asteroid comes out of nowhere, smacks into the area rendering the whole place an uninhabitable smoking crater, and perhaps then we'll have one less fucking stupid idiotic issue over which we pointlessly kill and brutalise each other.

But, fortunately or not, the universe is utterly indifferent to our wishes and thus we're left on to figure things out for ourselves.

[l'Enfermé]

Indeed. Or failing that, I'm hoping an asteroid comes out of nowhere, smacks into the area rendering the whole place an uninhabitable smoking crater, and perhaps then we'll have one less fucking stupid idiotic issue over which we pointlessly kill and brutalise each other.

But, fortunately or not, the universe is utterly indifferent to our wishes and thus we're left on to figure things out for ourselves.
Interesingly enough I've heard that same sentence many, many times, and each time it came from tea party-type American "conservatives", and once from a Canadian who tries to emulate those people.

[Offbeat]

No, it isn't. All states are illegitimate. The United States sits on stolen land. Does the United States have the 'right to exist'? There's no reason to single out Israel.


All states are illegitimate, I agree, and the US doesn't have a right to exist. Nevertheless there are plenty of reasons to single out Israel. The US stole its land hundreds of years ago, whereas Israel did so within living memory, and there are still thousands of refugees as a result. US law nowadays in theory treats everyone equally regardless of race or religion, whereas Israel has built what is often described as an Apartheid state which is institutionally racist against Arabs.

[tradeunionsupporter]

I am anti Zionist but I get sick of Right Wingers calling me or anyone who agrees with me Anti Semitic if you disagree with Zionism they even call Anti Zionist Jews Anti Semitic or Self Hating Jews.

[seventeethdecember2016]

I support National Self-Determination.

A two state solution is the ONLY SOLUTION!

[TheRedJew]

there is no other option for jews then israel.
if you kick them out you might as well kill all the jews.
zionism does not exist anymore. its goals were achived in 1948 end the rest is propagandA

[TheRedJew]

Yeah, Palestinians seem to have more ancestry of the Pre-Jewish and Jewish(the whole complete Jewish expulsion from Palestine by the Romans thing is a myth, it's accepted by most serious, knowledgable sources that the Jewish inhabitans of Palestine converted to Christianity and later to Islam and assimilated into the ethnicities that conquered the area after Roman times) inhabitants of Palestine than the European Zionists that colonized Palestine in the late 19th and the 20th century.

are you saying that none of the jews who live in israel are actually jews?
how can you even say that?!
if the jews remaind in israel and then converted, how come the jewish religion was preserved?

[Jimmie Higgins]

there is no other option for jews then israel.
if you kick them out you might as well kill all the jews.
zionism does not exist anymore. its goals were achived in 1948 end the rest is propagandAFirst I think "kicking out" any population is just unworkable - Just ask people in India how the partition went - or any forced relocation.

Second, Zionism on an ideological level is probably one of the worst defenses against Jewish oppression - for one thing it accomodates to it - it accepts that antisemitism can't be fought and so it just has to be avoided.

Also, in practice the political Zionist movement that led eventually to Israel sought patronage from some of the worst antisemite rulers of Europe! How is doing the bigging of antisemites from Churchill to Nixon a valid way to combat antisemitism? In fact as late as a few years ago, Sharon was saying that antisemitism in Russia is GOOD for Israel becuase it provides the country with low-wage Jewish immigrants from Russia.

Third the brutal policies of the Israeli government and their attempts to conflate that state's interests with all Jewish people have probably done more to legitimize mistaken antisemetic views among people - particularly Arabs. In fact many rulers in the region play a game of supporting the US and it's policies in the region while stoking antisemitism among the population and blaming Jewish people rather than the Israeli government let alone the organization of the region around US imperial interests (as well as local ruling class interests) for the inequality and repression in many places.

Lastly, the history of Jewish working class radicalism in the US and in Eastern Europe clearly shows that Zionism is not "the only option" for people defending themselves from antisemitic oppression.

[TheRedJew]

First I think "kicking out" any population is just unworkable - Just ask people in India how the partition went - or any forced relocation.

Second, Zionism on an ideological level is probably one of the worst defenses against Jewish oppression - for one thing it accomodates to it - it accepts that antisemitism can't be fought and so it just has to be avoided.

Also, in practice the political Zionist movement that led eventually to Israel sought patronage from some of the worst antisemite rulers of Europe! How is doing the bigging of antisemites from Churchill to Nixon a valid way to combat antisemitism? In fact as late as a few years ago, Sharon was saying that antisemitism in Russia is GOOD for Israel becuase it provides the country with low-wage Jewish immigrants from Russia.

Third the brutal policies of the Israeli government and their attempts to conflate that state's interests with all Jewish people have probably done more to legitimize mistaken antisemetic views among people - particularly Arabs. In fact many rulers in the region play a game of supporting the US and it's policies in the region while stoking antisemitism among the population and blaming Jewish people rather than the Israeli government let alone the organization of the region around US imperial interests (as well as local ruling class interests) for the inequality and repression in many places.

Lastly, the history of Jewish working class radicalism in the US and in Eastern Europe clearly shows that Zionism is not "the only option" for people defending themselves from antisemitic oppression.
Israel is not zionist, zionism is a 19 centeruy leftist movement that wanted to protect jews from antisemitisem.
one of the ideas hertzel offered was to create a jewish homeland, where the jews could be in charge of the jews.
he didn't think israel was the only option (althogh the most logical) and he almost accepted some dinky pieace of land in africa.
you realize that back then when he thoght of it jews couldn't defend themselves form the govrement because they had no rights.
hertzek was a socialist and a lot of the early zionists were too

[Book O'Dead]

Israel is not zionist, zionism is a 19 centeruy leftist movement that wanted to protect jews from antisemitisem.
one of the ideas hertzel offered was to create a jewish homeland, where the jews could be in charge of the jews.
he didn't think israel was the only option (althogh the most logical) and he almost accepted some dinky pieace of land in africa.
you realize that back then when he thoght of it jews couldn't defend themselves form the govrement because they had no rights.
hertzek was a socialist and a lot of the early zionists were too

This is the thing that bothers me the most about the reflexive anti-Zionism I see exhibited in this forum!

Up until the formation of the state of Israel, there was NOWHERE in the world the Jews could call their homeland and there was NO COUNTRY in the world that would give persecuted Jews shelter, NOT EVEN THE UNITED STATES!

During the 19th and early 20th Centuries, European Jews had had a brief respite from the vicious persecutions and pogroms to which they were periodically treated. Then fascism and antisemitism grew to unparalleled levels, and when Jews began to flee Germany and Europe, almost no country in the world accepted them in sufficient numbers.

So now, after all that, we who are comfortable, we whose people have never suffered persecution, discrimination and exile, we condemn Israel for doing precisely what we drove them to do. How convenient!

Whereas I agree that the Israeli government has behaved in a bestial manner toward the majority of its Arab population, I cannot wholly blame them for their siege mentality and irredentism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism).

Also, whereas I support the Palestinian people in their struggle for justice and self-determination against the Israeli government, I also recognize that Israel is and continues to be a safe harbor for Jews around the world, should the world once again be infected by its ancient and irrational hatred of Jews.

[TheRedJew]

This is the thing that bothers me the most about the reflexive anti-Zionism I see exhibited in this forum!

Up until the formation of the state of Israel, there was NOWHERE in the world the Jews could call their homeland and there was NO COUNTRY in the world that would give persecuted Jews shelter, NOT EVEN THE UNITED STATES!

During the 19th and early 20th Centuries, European Jews had had a brief respite from the vicious persecutions and pogroms to which they were periodically treated. Then fascism and antisemitism grew to unparalleled levels, and when Jews began to flee Germany and Europe, almost no country in the world accepted them in sufficient numbers.

So now, after all that, we who are comfortable, we whose people have never suffered persecution, discrimination and exile, we condemn Israel for doing precisely what we drove them to do. How convenient!

Whereas I agree that the Israeli government has behaved in a bestial manner toward the majority of its Arab population, I cannot wholly blame them for their siege mentality and irredentism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism).

Also, whereas I support the Palestinian people in their struggle for justice and self-determination against the Israeli government, I also recognize that Israel is and continues to be a safe harbor for Jews around the world, should the world once again be infected by its ancient and irrational hatred of Jews.

:)
two state solution is only possibale after israel becomes socialist

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Interesingly enough I've heard that same sentence many, many times, and each time it came from tea party-type American "conservatives", and once from a Canadian who tries to emulate those people.

Those types get frustrated by all that crap? I thought they liked it when "those types" get put in their place with the assistance of sundry military hardware?

[Dean]

This is the thing that bothers me the most about the reflexive anti-Zionism I see exhibited in this forum!

Up until the formation of the state of Israel, there was NOWHERE in the world the Jews could call their homeland and there was NO COUNTRY in the world that would give persecuted Jews shelter, NOT EVEN THE UNITED STATES!

And what kind of shelter is it in a land at war with all its neighbors because it is comprised of foreign colonizers? It looks more like a ghetto Jews have been forced into by anti-semites in Europe.


During the 19th and early 20th Centuries, European Jews had had a brief respite from the vicious persecutions and pogroms to which they were periodically treated. Then fascism and antisemitism grew to unparalleled levels, and when Jews began to flee Germany and Europe, almost no country in the world accepted them in sufficient numbers.
Which justifies what, exactly?


So now, after all that, we who are comfortable, we whose people have never suffered persecution, discrimination and exile, we condemn Israel for doing precisely what we drove them to do. How convenient!

I can't think of a single ethnicity or national identity that hasn't been the subject of persecution at some point.


Whereas I agree that the Israeli government has behaved in a bestial manner toward the majority of its Arab population, I cannot wholly blame them for their siege mentality and irredentism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism).

While the realists actually do blame the Israeli state for their expansionism and ethno nationalism. Jews lived peacefully besides Arabs before Israel - and the local Jews were even persecuted by the European migrants who had no reason to share in the commonwealth with any natives.


Also, whereas I support the Palestinian people in their struggle for justice and self-determination against the Israeli government, I also recognize that Israel is and continues to be a safe harbor for Jews around the world, should the world once again be infected by its ancient and irrational hatred of Jews.
Too bad that Palestinians can't have a safe haven.

Also, the exact same argument is being used to support the Alawite state in Syria. Where else are they expected to go when Assad falls? Better go defend that one next, colonel!

[l'Enfermé]

I guess my fellow Chechens and I can go right ahead and colonize Ireland over a period of several decades, arm ourselves when we are there in sufficient numbers and ethnically cleanse most of Ireland and confine the remaining Irish who didn't flee the Island to bantustans, just because our Russian neighbors like to exterminate a quarter, a third, or half of our entire nation every couple of decades.

Because that makes so much sense...

[SirBrendan]

It's certainly interesting to see the discussion evolve. I just wish people would back away a little from the hardliner rhetoric. Yes, we can recognise the crimes of the States of Israel. Yes, we can hope for a secular nation to govern over both populations. These are valid ideas worthy of earnest discussion and consideration.

But then, like a bad smell, the whole Mugabe nonsense of exodus of the invader comes out to play. You can not say you advocate the promotion of human rights and then call for an ethnic deportation!

Israel is a very, very unique nation with very, very unique situations facing them. It is not zionist propoganda to recognise that they are a western nation stuck in a very violent, very radical, and ultimately very shitty part of the world. It was deliberately done by America and Britain.

I have a very layman understanding of their history, but my interpretation is that after WW2 the bulk of western nations didn't want a deluge of Jewish refugees as anti-semitism was still very much part of the West's mosaic. Britain also recognised that the days of colonialism were ever, but that economic imperialism was about to become the natural reality of modern economis. As such, they needed to remove themselves from their occupation of the Middle East while maintaining a strategic conttrol in the oil-rich region, both for potential resource interests and to collar down the whiplash from the freed peoples (Libya for example funded the IRA). So lo and behold, two birds went down after WW2

Israel was formed as both a nation to extract the Jews from the West, and to ensure there would always be a strongly defended western powerhouse in the MiddleEast, which holds countless tactical interests.

At no point of this was it Israel or zionists who invaded. This was all on Britain and America. Then, the Arab League (in various incarnations), pissed about years and years of occupation and economic exploitation began several wars and attempts to remove Israel (which the bulk refuse to even recognise as a nation). This may be a fair resistance, but the result is that Israel has been placed under constant national threat since its inception, and must be significantly more military-minded than other western nations such as my own Canada.

I am not, for a second, absolving Israel of its countless humanrights violations. I am not denying that Palestenians have the right to self governance. I am not 'pro-Israel'. I am someone however who sees that both peoples are in an awful position where they both desire and have claim to the lands. To me, a two state solution is the least violent and most agreeable solution as far as I've seen. The exodus of Israelis or Palestinians is equally offensive to me as a solution.

*P.S.
advocating a two-state solution is not unanarchist. It is not contrary. I am a practical human being living in a world sorted into states. I support any individual who wishes to remove themselves from statehood, but that doesn't mean I can't somehow participate in discussion of state or how best to mitigate the damages which results from it

[Tukhachevsky]

I don't support the two states solution because every time palestinians got the right to a land, they began attacking Israel again. Gaza for example, PLO attacks...

I don't support the one state solution because it doesn't seem right, Palestine+Arab League declares war on jews and lose, and they still ***** about it until today. They expel jews form their lands to Israel, they seize the jews property, they embargo Israel... And suddenly, by an international lobby and pressure the israeli state is dissolved, the arabs have majority because they didn't even bothered to prevent birth among its population and everything is fine? It's too much unidirectional.

As I said other times in this forum, people seems very arbitrary when opposing Israel... They go the way opposing capitalism=opposing american imperialism=opposing american support for Israel=opposing Israel=supporting the poor victims of Palestine.
Being born outside the "west" world I surely don't feel the least emotional compulsion to see anyone as victims, specially muslim autocrats or the successors of the nazi collaborator Mufti of Jerusalem.

[Tukhachevsky]

Hard to think that there was a lot of migration by non-Jews to Palestine at that time for "jobs from the Jewish immigrants" since the Zionists were voluntarily excluding non-Jews from their Kibbutz and other firms, and "labor Zionism"

I was referring to migration before world war 2, from 1909 for example when Tel-Aviv was founded by jews.
Leftists worth their salt disappeared in a prison in Moscow.


And I don't know what the fuck Jordan has to do with anything. If the Hashemites in Jordan stole half of Palestine, it's fine for the Zionists to steal the other half?

All the point isn't about a return of palestinians to their original land? Part of this land is jordanian.

[Rafiq]

Tukhachevsky, why are you holding every Palestinian accountable for the decisions and actions of the Arab league? So what? You just leave them to rot to shit? And in all fairness, Gaza and the West Bank were never Independence territories, and not at all sufficient to mass a large population like the Palestinian one. What are "Arabs" to you, a homogeneous population that has identical interests? We aren't, as you'd like to think, the sand people from the Star Wars movies. A single state solution is of absolute necessity to any revolutionary. A single, proletarian dictatorship that exists and crosses ethnic lines, i.e. Proletarian is Proletarian, Jew, Arab, African, or not. That should be the aim for any socialist. Be it "realistic" or not, anything less isn't worth the support of any Communist. It is not in the interest of any proletarian to support Hamas or the IDF.

Now, don't get me wrong. In Palestine's case, a lot of Leftists would willingly Sacrifice the Palestinian proletariat to their own class enemy, i.e. Islamists like Hamas, PLO today, etc.

[Tukhachevsky]

Tukhachevsky, why are you holding every Palestinian accountable for the decisions and actions of the Arab league?

I have an arab (non-jew) friend from nazareth. He was clear he wasn't saying for all arab population of Israel territory, but his family didn't opposed the creation of the state and they were left pretty much undisturbed until today. One of his uncle even died from heart attack when a rocket hit his car, later Nasrallah or some representative called saying they were sorry.
And of course I wasn't equating palestinians with Arab League, this would be gross generalization, I was referring to the Mufti decision, together with Arab League, to oppose Israel creation, the partition plan and all everything else that happened later. Which is fairly rational, who wouldn't oppose someone who enters in your house demanding part of it?
If the Mufti wasn't their voice, what I would consider the palestinians? Southern syrians?



What are "Arabs" to you, a homogeneous population that has identical interests?

Did I sounded like if I thought this? I'm sorry.


A single state solution is of absolute necessity to any revolutionary.

And who loses unilaterally with this? Good lord, I can even imagine Abbas when he studied in Soviet Union and some kgb strategist saying "Try to raise as much as you can the demographic population, then we press one state solution endlessly and never accept other option".

[individualist]

The people from whom the land was stolen barely exists anymore, Native Americans/American Indians make up something like 1.5-2 percent of the American population.

Palestinians outnumber Israeli Jews 2-to-1. The comparison is ridiculous. In the currently unlikely scenario that the Palestinians are able to overthrow the yoke of the zionist-colonialists, it would be entirely up to them to decide the fate of Jewish colonialists residing in Palestine and I wouldn't blame them if it was decided to remove them back to their homelands in Europe, Asia, the Americas, etc. The whole thing wouldn't be so dissimilar from how about a million Pied-Noirs(European colonialists in Algeria)fled from Algeria when the Algerians secured their independence.
expelling the pied noirs was clearly not justified either. You are clearly an anti semitic racist.

[milkmiku]

Personally, I'm hoping for a Three State solution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVGeR4r5hbk

Kidding by the way.

[l'Enfermé]

expelling the pied noirs was clearly not justified either. You are clearly an anti semitic racist.
Why is the expulsion of reactionary colonists not justified(the pied-noirs mostly fled on their own anyways, to avoid reprisals for the atrocities they've been committing against Algerians)? And yes, I'm obviously an anti-semite; I'm actually posing as a Marxist in order to infiltrate this Judeo-Marxist movement in order to bring these satanic masons down.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

This is the thing that bothers me the most about the reflexive anti-Zionism I see exhibited in this forum!

Up until the formation of the state of Israel, there was NOWHERE in the world the Jews could call their homeland and there was NO COUNTRY in the world that would give persecuted Jews shelter, NOT EVEN THE UNITED STATES!

During the 19th and early 20th Centuries, European Jews had had a brief respite from the vicious persecutions and pogroms to which they were periodically treated. Then fascism and antisemitism grew to unparalleled levels, and when Jews began to flee Germany and Europe, almost no country in the world accepted them in sufficient numbers.

So now, after all that, we who are comfortable, we whose people have never suffered persecution, discrimination and exile, we condemn Israel for doing precisely what we drove them to do. How convenient!

Whereas I agree that the Israeli government has behaved in a bestial manner toward the majority of its Arab population, I cannot wholly blame them for their siege mentality and irredentism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism).

Also, whereas I support the Palestinian people in their struggle for justice and self-determination against the Israeli government, I also recognize that Israel is and continues to be a safe harbor for Jews around the world, should the world once again be infected by its ancient and irrational hatred of Jews.

I am Jewish. My family is Jewish. We have lived peacefully in this country for over 100 years. I have Jewish family who have lived in the US peacefully and safely for a similar period, if not longer.

Whilst it's true that Jews were harshly persecuted in Germany, Eastern Europe and Russia and many other European countries, the notion that today, in 2012, the 'right of return' is crucial to the continued existence and safety of Jewish people is an absolute lie peddled by Zionists so they can continue their imperial domination of the Palestinians.

Why is determined, principled opposition to the imperialism of the Israeli government ALWAYS cast as 'hatred of jews'? It's ridiculous and insulting and shows that people like you don't know what you're talking about in the slightest.

[Tukhachevsky]

Why is determined, principled opposition to the imperialism of the Israeli government ALWAYS cast as 'hatred of jews'? It's ridiculous and insulting and shows that people like you don't know what you're talking about in the slightest.

To what distance apologists american jews are willing to go, trying to take Israel out of Israelites.
And to imagine all these jewish refugees, with no money, nowhere to go, no country accepting them legally, kicked out of Poland by force, living in concentration camps in Cyprus or Haifa, being hunted by arab militias like the Black Hand; being called now days imperialists for creating a country!

I'm not jewish but I find this surprising. It's this the so called void of ideology of the west, where any kind of fight, even for your survival, is considered a shameful break of the status quo?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

To what distance apologists american jews are willing to go, trying to take Israel out of Israelites.
And to imagine all these jewish refugees, with no money, nowhere to go, no country accepting them legally, kicked out of Poland by force, living in concentration camps in Cyprus or Haifa, being hunted by arab militias like the Black Hand; being called now days imperialists for creating a country!

I'm not jewish but I find this surprising. It's this the so called void of ideology of the west, where any kind of fight, even for your survival, is considered a shameful break of the status quo?

Like I said quite clearly, it's the Israeli government that anti-Zionism is directed against, NOT the Israeli people.

It's not a binary situation: opposition to the existence of an Israel dominated by Judaism does not equal support for the brutalising of the Jews. Like I said, i'm a Jew myself, clearly not in my interests!

Besides, today there is a massive diaspora of Jews living safely across the world from the US, to UK to Ethiopia. There will be no more persecution of the jews as there was in Germany in the 1930s and this has nothing to do with the existence of Israel. Israel is a pariah state and does nothing to help safeguard Jewish people.