venezuela bans private gun ownership

[Lobotomy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-18288430


Venezuela has brought a new gun law into effect which bans the commercial sale of firearms and ammunition.

Until now, anyone with a gun permit could buy arms from a private company.

Under the new law, only the army, police and certain groups like security companies will be able to buy arms from the state-owned weapons manufacturer and importer.

The ban is the latest attempt by the government to improve security and cut crime ahead of elections in October

Venezuela saw more than 18,000 murders last year and the capital, Caracas, is thought to be one of the most dangerous cities in Latin America.

[Imposter Marxist]

It appears Chavez is centralizing guns in the hands of the state

[Sten]

I expect a prolific black market.

[X5N]

I can't say I approve.

[#FF0000]

looks like a last-ditch effort to curb crime imo

[Goblin]

Another dumb move by Chavez

[Salyut]

certain groups like security companies

So...disarm the proletariat and let the company goons keep their guns?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Thread moved

[TheAltruist]

I seems to me that just banning guns usually doesn't accomplish much in terms of reducing crime. And since private companies can keep theirs', what will happen when workers go on strike? With Chavez's party out of power (seems imminent) violence will just be targeted against the workers and people who can't manage to get guns.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I don't like the limitations on who can buy, but I do like the limitations on who can sell.

[Leftsolidarity]

I don't agree with the move but then again I'm not in the situation of running Venezula and it might be (like #FF0000 said) a last effort to curb crime.

[Misanthrope]

I don't agree with the move but then again I'm not in the situation of running Venezula and it might be (like #FF0000 said) a last effort to curb crime.

because prohibition curbs crime :rolleyes:

[TheAltruist]

Not really. Look at Prohibition in the U.S. during the 20's. Alcohol consumption didn't stop, it just went underground. It also turned petty criminals into powerful gang lords. The reason is because it was part of the culture which had lasted for decades. If there is a criminal culture, it is because of social or economic reasons, and banning guns doesn't get to the heart of the problem.

[Bostana]

Another dumb move by Chavez

Another, and another, and another.......

[Leftsolidarity]

because prohibition curbs crime

I said I didnt agree

[MarxSchmarx]

Not really. ... If there is a criminal culture, it is because of social or economic reasons, and banning guns doesn't get to the heart of the problem.

Maybe it doesn't "get to the heart of the problem" but it does check the ability of the criminal element to be vicious.

Look at countries where social and economic reasons would suggest crime would be rampant but guns are banned. For example, Thailand and the Philippenes have comparable HDI statistics, both fail spectacularly at ameliorating the causes of crime, about the only possible substantive difference is one is Christian and the other Buddhist (if anything the Philippense is more likely to have less criminality due to its huge diaspora particularly among the youth), yet the instance of violent crimes is drastically higher in the country with relatively good gun availability (Philippines). When you control for socioeconomic status, race, education etc... it has been shown in Canada and America that the availablity of guns in communities sui generis raises the death rate.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Comrade, gun control also inhibits the ability of the working class to defend itself against the likes of police brutality, no?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I think that this "reform" is probably done with good intentions, honestly, but it's most likely going to fail spectacularly. That's due to 1) the geography of where Venezuela is situated, and 2) endemic narco-corruption (http://www.economist.com/node/21531471) in the Venezuelan state.

[MarxSchmarx]

Comrade, gun control also inhibits the ability of the working class to defend itself against the likes of police brutality, no?

TBH I don't know if anybody's looked at that either way. Police brutality usually happens after subjects have been cuffed or are pretty defenseless otherwise, in fact one of the first things they do is check for weapons. I've also heard about cops freaking out and going overboard with their high caliber weapons if somebody had say a water gun. But like I said, I don't know of any solid studies either way. If there were empircal evidence that showed that gun ownership deterred police brutiality, one should take that into consideration

[REDSOX]

Another dumb move by Chavez

On the contrary, a great move by chavez. This measure is but one of many measures to tackle the problem of violent crime in parts of venezuela where it is very very high. The puzzle for a lot of people though is how become crime is so high in venezuela given that poverty, unemployment, social problems have been drastically reduced!!!. Maybe this measure will help

[MustCrushCapitalism]

On the contrary, a great move by chavez. This measure is but one of many measures to tackle the problem of violent crime in parts of venezuela where it is very very high. The puzzle for a lot of people though is how become crime is so high in venezuela given that poverty, unemployment, social problems have been drastically reduced!!!. Maybe this measure will help
Gun control doesn't help. Actual violent criminals don't give a shit whether or not they're using a registered gun.

[Q]

The left in Venezuela ought to organize a mass campaign of civil disobedience to this law in the name of workers militias and universal education in the use of weaponry.

[REDSOX]

Gun control doesn't help. Actual violent criminals don't give a shit whether or not they're using a registered gun.

I believe that gun control (not prohibition) can as a package of proposals help to reduce crime. Other measures currently being implemented are gun amnesties, banning violent video games, toys and changing cultural attitudes to guns as well as smashing armed criminal groups such as drug gangs through community participation help, intelligence.

[Q]

I believe that gun control (not prohibition) can as a package of proposals help to reduce crime. Other measures currently being implemented are gun amnesties, banning violent video games, toys and changing cultural attitudes to guns as well as smashing armed criminal groups such as drug gangs through community participation help, intelligence.

Like others have mentioned, a black market will surely flourish. The only ones as a real disadvantage here are working class people. Also, the state is no impartial party working towards our security. Even the Chavez regime has many examples of strike breakings.

[REDSOX]

Like others have mentioned, a black market will surely flourish. The only ones as a real disadvantage here are working class people. Also, the state is no impartial party working towards our security. Even the Chavez regime has many examples of strike breakings.

A black market will not develop if the state and the communities work together to get rid of the scourge of criminal armed gangs in venezuela some of which have infiltrated the barrios from colombia. We are not by the way talking about banning gun ownership in Venezuela which can lead to a black market but gun restrictions. As for working class people being disadvantaged it is they who are screaming for action against violent crime and the government which they elected are responding.

Also what examples of strike breaking are you talking about. The new labour law prohibits strike breaking

[Q]

Also what examples of strike breaking are you talking about. The new labour law prohibits strike breaking

Ok, I know of no recent examples then. Maybe others do. I remain sceptic that a state just reforms itself that easily.

[workerist]

i don't have a problem with this, so long as the workers' militias stay armed. ideally no citizen should have access to a gun unless they have proper training in a well-regulated militia and are politically indoctrinated into socialism. having gun shops where any yahoo can walk out with a deadly weapon is part of the problem.

[Eagle_Syr]

Banning guns doesn't solve any problems. In fact, it makes things worse. Criminals will still get their hands on guns, and law-abiding citizens will be helpless. Why shouldn't a man be allowed to keep a gun at home to defend his family?

A fair law would allow the working class to be armed, and would prohibit the bourgeoisie from arming themselves

[wsg1991]

On the contrary, a great move by chavez. This measure is but one of many measures to tackle the problem of violent crime in parts of venezuela where it is very very high. The puzzle for a lot of people though is how become crime is so high in venezuela given that poverty, unemployment, social problems have been drastically reduced!!!. Maybe this measure will help

it will solve gun crimes , reduce death toll from crime

but the crime rate itself won't go down , people will start using knifes instead

[wsg1991]

Ok, I know of no recent examples then. Maybe others do. I remain sceptic that a state just reforms itself that easily.

one threat reformists face is the military , this is not chavez case , as he survived 2002 coup d'etat , there isn't much can stop him now ,

[Regicollis]

Comrade, gun control also inhibits the ability of the working class to defend itself against the likes of police brutality, no?

I guess the police can outgun most people. I also guess they are going to be a lot more brutal towards armed victims.

[Regicollis]

Banning guns doesn't solve any problems. In fact, it makes things worse. Criminals will still get their hands on guns, and law-abiding citizens will be helpless. Why shouldn't a man be allowed to keep a gun at home to defend his family?

It is true that if you really want a gun - and have the money - you can always get one illegally. However these illegal guns have to come from somewhere. If there is a large supply of legal weapons around, it will be easier to get an illegal weapon - any burglar will simply take the guns too and sell them on the black market. Without the legal availability of firearms the supply of illegal firearms would decrease thus increasing black market prices and effectively reducing the number of illegal guns out there.


A fair law would allow the working class to be armed, and would prohibit the bourgeoisie from arming themselves

And where would such a fair law come from - the bourgeois state?

[wsg1991]

And where would such a fair law come from - the bourgeois state?

you are talking about Venezuela , ruled by a reformist , not your typical ''bourgeois'' state ,

[L.A.P.]

Interesting article DNZ posted:

http://news.yahoo.com/pro-chavez-gangs-tolerated-rule-turf-venezuela122301808.html

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — Closed-circuit cameras stare down from lampposts, allowing a heavily armed gang to keep watch over those who dare to enter one of Caracas' most violent slums. At night, the gunmen cover their faces with ski masks and set up checkpoints, brandishing pistols and ordering residents to identify themselves as they enter the neighborhood.

Here in the 23 de Enero slum, several gangs that pledge allegiance to Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez are effectively the law, ruling over fiefdoms where police seldom venture. Chavez has occasionally criticized the groups, but the authorities have largely left them alone, stoking accusations by critics that the government is tolerating an armed wing that could prove dangerous in a critical election year in Venezuela.

One of the biggest gangs calls itself "La Piedrita," or "Little Rock." In its neighborhood turf, murals are painted with slogans such as "For the defense of the revolution, vote for Chavez. La Piedrita." One of the murals depicts Jesus and the Virgin Mary holding assault rifles.

Nearby, young men wearing olive green caps guard the barred gate of an apartment building that the gang uses as a command center. They don't welcome visitors, especially journalists.

"Please leave peacefully," one of the young men said cordially to a team of AP journalists. "From the high-ranking commanders to the low-ranking ones, no one is going to make any statements because you're going to distort the information."

As he spoke, another man pointed a 9-mm pistol at an AP photographer, ordering him and a driver to get off their motorcycle, and then demanding they get back on it and leave.

Some of Chavez's opponents say the government tolerates such groups to use them when convenient to intimidate adversaries, and that it's hard to predict how they would react if opposition presidential candidate Henrique Capriles were to defeat Chavez in the October presidential vote. Also unknown is how the gangs would react if Chavez were to succumb to his nearly yearlong fight with cancer.

What's clear is that the gangs wield serious firepower, toting assault rifles that only security forces are legally permitted to carry in Venezuela.

"These illegally armed groups could at some point use those weapons to commit crimes or to destabilize any government," said Luis Izquiel, who leads a security committee for the opposition. He said if Chavez is defeated and a new government takes over, "the authorities would have to go get those illegal weapons."

Chavez, who is undergoing cancer treatment, is leading in the polls and has warned his opponents not to try to stir up violence. He has said previously that his socialist movement is "peaceful but armed."

Chavez has also created a Bolivarian Militia, named after independence hero Simon Bolivar, with tens of thousands of civilian volunteers who participate in occasional boot camp training led by military officers.

Nearly a dozen armed gangs, however, appear to maintain looser ties to the government while controlling their neighborhoods in slums located less than a mile (1.5 kilometers) from the presidential palace.

Opposition politicians estimate about 300 people belong to armed pro-Chavez gangs, many of them young men. There is no evidence, however, that they have received weapons or training directly from the government as some Chavez opponents suspect.

Armed groups such as the "Tupamaros" and La Piedrita have existed for years in western Caracas, even before Chavez took office in 1999. But since then they have expanded, and new groups have emerged.

In rare public appearances, some leaders of the groups have vowed to zealously back Chavez's socialist movement. Many of the groups call themselves "collectives," and residents say some, such as La Piedrita, carry out service work including running a community kitchen for the poor. But in photos and videos posted on the Internet, gang members also show off weapons including pistols, AK-47s and R-15 rifles.

Members of La Piedrita have also held menacing protests at the offices of opposition newspapers and anti-Chavez television channel Globovision, hurling tear gas canisters at the buildings. Chavez has publicly disavowed the group in recent years, and in 2009 urged the authorities to detain La Piedrita's leader, Valentin Santana.

Despite arrest warrants for homicide and other crimes, Santana remains free, and it's unclear why he hasn't been captured. Earlier this year, Santana even appeared on state television at a church event.

Wearing a camouflage cap with the bill turned up, he questioned the commitment of some government officials to socialist ideals and pledged "loyalty to our friend Chavez."

Miguel Dao, a former police chief, criticized the authorities' failure to act against such groups. "If you have the power and ... you don't do anything, you become an accomplice of these groups," he said.

Dao said he doesn't think the gangs would represent a major security risk if Chavez were to be forced from office either by illness or electoral defeat. But for now, he said, "I think these irregular groups are better armed than the police."

The Justice Ministry did not respond to requests to ask Minister Tareck El Aissami about the government's stance toward the pro-Chavez groups and the actions that authorities have taken in Santana's case.

During the first half of his presidency, Chavez had publicly praised Lina Ron, a radical supporter with bleached blond hair who led one armed group.

When Chavez was briefly ousted in a 2002 coup, Ron and others took to the streets in protests that helped usher his return to the presidency. In subsequent years, armed gangs of "Chavistas" on motorcycles regularly circled opposition protests brandishing weapons and displaying the flags of their groups. Sometimes, they were spotted firing shots in the air for intimidation.

Such incidents had become less frequent in the past few years, and by the time Ron died in 2011, Chavez had distanced himself from her brash tactics, which included the protests outside opposition news media buildings.

But on March 4, gunfire erupted during an event where Chavez's rival Capriles was visiting the traditionally pro-government neighborhood of Cotiza. Both political camps traded blame for the violence, in which one Capriles supporter was wounded. Members of the opposition said they saw some Chavez supporters with guns. No arrests have been made.

In January, La Piedrita found itself at the center of a national controversy when photos circulated on the Internet showing children posing with assault rifles at a ceremony organized by the group. After a public outcry, Chavez condemned the group and demanded the authorities take action.

"This hurts the revolution," Chavez said.

Prosecutors responded by ordering two women to appear in court as suspects for posing the children with guns. Venezuelan law calls for prison terms of one to five years for adults who provide weapons to children.

The authorities also arrested three members of La Piedrita as suspects in the killing of a bodyguard who had been working for the Justice Ministry.

Criminologist Fermin Marmol Garcia said police and other security forces typically don't enter 23 de Enero without notifying the armed groups. He said that shows the thugs effectively run a "micro-state" and operate like paramilitary groups, controlling their turf.

People who live in the slum have learned to cope with the pro-Chavez gunmen, some of whom claim to keep the neighborhoods safe from common criminals.

"After 10, 11 at night, you can't be in the area of 23 de Enero because there are times when they put up checkpoints and stop cars," said Manuel Mir, a community leader who has lived in the neighborhood all of his life. "They order anyone who isn't from the area to get out. They're masked and armed people. It's unacceptable that groups of this sort are guaranteeing us security."