Help me argue against neocons who think "Nazis are Left-Wing."

[Stadtsmasher]

Too stupid of an argument to even have, right? That's why I'm having trouble even knowing where to start. I'm trying to argue with a den of ravenous right-libertarians and neoskums that want to do some kind of weird revisionism and place "Hitler on the Left." I guess they want to try to use Hitler as a weapon against the left. Or perhaps they feel uncomfortable (as they should) standing on the same side of the spectum and do what conservatives do best: Tell baldface lies. "Durrrr. Hitler bad. Leftist bad. THUS Hitler = leftist. The word "National Socialist" contains "socialist," right?"

I'd like to win this argument. Because although its stupid, this idea seems to be spreading on the net. I've seen similar positions being floated on a lot of boards recently.

Any suggested talking points?

[Luc]

communists and anarchists were sent to camps or atleast imprisoned and executed

Ernst Thaellmann one example (leader of Red Front Fighter's League)

also talk about the League (see above or the Iron Front) and how they fought in the streets with the SA

related to that mention spanish civil war too perhaps...

also show them excerps from Mein Kampf where hitler talks about how much he hates communism

and about the "socialism" thing just say how everyone back then called em selves socialist to get votes and stuff like "jobs" and "freedom" today

there are better things (namely materialist analysis) but you're just askin for talkin points right?

tbh i wouldnt worry too much about it its internet message boards :/

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Hitler used the name because in europe socialist parties allways gain the majority! (this is actually true)
The name "National" means fascist, for example in Italy there was the National Fascist party and in Spain there were the nacionalists.

If he was left-wing he would have use planned economy at least.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

@Lucien le jeune

"naemly"
"scoialism"

Nice grammar!:D

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Thread moved to Learning.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Arguing with such people on this usually never ends good. But the main point is that, what movements, governments etc call themselves doesn't mean shitz. It's how the system is composed, how the social relations, the production is organised, that matters. If you look at it this way, there is no way you can place nazi germany on the left, if you by "left" mean communism/socialism/"revolutionary left".

However, when arguing with libertarians, Ron paulists etc. they often equate socialism with the present system in most countries and/or present social democracy. If you look at the economic politics isolated, this isn't completely off, though it's still a too easy comaprison.

[Zukunftsmusik]

The name "National" means fascist, for example in Italy there was the National Fascist party and in Spain there were the nacionalists.

I suppose you've had this discussion before, but this is wrong

[Anarcho-Brocialist]

Far right politics involves support of strong or complete social hierarchy in society, and supports supremacy of certain individuals or groups deemed to be innately superior who are to be more valued than those deemed to be innately inferior. (Woshinsky, Oliver H., Explaining Politics: Culture, Institutions, and Political Behavior (Oxon, England; New York City, United States: Routledge, 2008) p. 154.)

[Tim Cornelis]

From an interview with Hitler in 1923:


"Why," I asked Hitler, "do you call yourself a National Socialist, since your party programme is the very antithesis of that commonly accredited to socialism?"

"Socialism," he retorted, putting down his cup of tea, pugnaciously, "is the science of dealing with the common weal. Communism is not Socialism. Marxism is not Socialism. The Marxians have stolen the term and confused its meaning. I shall take Socialism away from the Socialists.

"Socialism is an ancient Aryan, Germanic institution. Our German ancestors held certain lands in common. They cultivated the idea of the common weal. Marxism has no right to disguise itself as socialism. Socialism, unlike Marxism, does not repudiate private property. Unlike Marxism, it involves no negation of personality, and unlike Marxism, it is patriotic.

"We might have called ourselves the Liberal Party. We chose to call ourselves the National Socialists. We are not internationalists. Our socialism is national. We demand the fulfilment of the just claims of the productive classes by the state on the basis of race solidarity. To us state and race are one."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguardian/2007/sep/17/greatinterviews1

Note that liberal in that time was more what right-wing libertarianism is today.

[Luc]

@Lucien le jeune

"naemly"
"scoialism"

Nice grammar!:D

its spelling :p

[Sten]

To what the others posted you can add the appeal to traditional values and lifestyles (opposing the corrupt bourgeois morality of the contemporary society).
its spelling :p Nope. It's orthography.

[Luc]

Nope. It's orthography.

fuck! :blushing:

[Sten]

fuck! :blushing: Well, you were correct too. :p

[Luc]

Well, you were correct too. :p

woot woot! :w00t:

[Revolutionair]

Hitler was in a government with conservatives. The nazi's were financed by big capitalists such as Krupp. Like Goti already said, Hitler said his socialism was based on private property.

Just off the top of my head.

[harte.beest]

You could use quotes from Hitler himself like:

"Liberalism is a disease of the mind that weakens and corrupts human beings."

"The streets of our country are in turmoil. The universities are filled with students rebelling and rioting. Communists are seeking to destroy our country. Russia is threatening us with her might, and the Republic is in danger. Yes - danger from within and without. We need law and order! Without it our nation cannot survive."

"Our adopted term ‘Socialist' has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism."


"Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction."


OR give him a history lesson like :



Historians Ian Kershaw and Joachim Fest argue that in post-World War I Germany, the Nazis were one of many nationalist and fascist political parties contending for the leadership of Germany's anti-communist movement. The Nazis claimed that communism was dangerous to the well-being of nations because of its intention to dissolve private property, its support of class conflict, its aggression against the middle class, its hostility to small businessmen, and its atheism.

Nazism rejected class conflict-based socialism and economic egalitarianism, favouring instead a stratified economy with social classes based on merit and talent, retaining private property, and the creation of national solidarity that transcends class distinction.

During the 1920s, Hitler urged disparate Nazi factions to unite in opposition to "Jewish Marxism."Hitler asserted that the "three vices" of "Jewish Marxism" were democracy, pacifism and internationalism.

but with idiots like that.... I think it's easier just to say

Yes! You're right compared to YOU Hitler was a peace-loving hippie liberal, he only wanted to kill the jews, you want to kill every single person on earth except white christians, why are you guys so racist anyway even hitler allied with japan.......

Why bother with idiots like that just make fun of them :thumbup1:


as Hitler would say: “All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those toward whom it is directed will understand it… Through clever and constant application of propaganda, People can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise.”

[Regicollis]

Never argue with an idiot - he'll bring you down to his level and beat you on experience.

But if you still plan to argue with this moronic idea that Hitler was a socialist I think you should ask a few simple questions like:
- If Hitler was a socialist, why did he send the communists, unionists and social democrats to the death camps while he socialised with the capitalist elite?
- Who funded Hitler's election campaign?
-How did Hitler empower the working class?

[Movimento Sem Terra]

Strasserist was some degenerated form of Left wing because they belive in nationalism but at the same time they want a more socialoist aproach on the economy . They even talk about take down the state and form a Guild Sytem .

[Sten]

- If Hitler was a socialist, why did he send the communists, unionists and social democrats to the death camps That's not a great question, Stalin did that too. :p
Strasserist was some degenerated form of Left wing because they belive in nationalism but at the same time they want a more socialoist aproach on the economy . They even talk about take down the state and form a Guild Sytem . Strasserism wasn't mainstream in the NSDAP and pretty much died out after its leaders were killed the Night of the Long Knives. Even if it was "left of the NSDAP", it wasn't properly left-wing, but merely a part of the usual "proletarian" rhetoric of Fascism.

[Movimento Sem Terra]

That's why i said it was a degenerated form of Left wing .

[Qavvik]

No matter what you say to him, he'll keep right on believing what Glenn Beck has preached to him. But, if you must argue with him, remind him that Hitler was initially thought to be "controllable" by the bourgeois business interests and thus was given a clear path to Chancellor by Paul von Hindenburg at the urging of Alfred Hugenburg, Alfried Krupp, and Franz von Papen.

I'd also remind him that Hitler sent communists, socialists, anarchists, Jews, Romanis, and homosexuals alike to the gas chamber.

[NewLeft]

Strasserist was some degenerated form of Left wing because they belive in nationalism but at the same time they want a more socialoist aproach on the economy . They even talk about take down the state and form a Guild Sytem .
They reject Marxist class analysis and they are apologists for imperialism. It is not "left-wing," they are third positionists. They want a federalist system that is separated by nationality.

[Geiseric]

Fascism is when declassed petit bourgeois physically assault and terrorise working class people and organizations, as a failure of the left wing and socialists primarily to win them over in the late decay of capitalism. their early goals of "small buisness growth," and the "german folk," rhetoric is meaningless since during the Nazis, huge german corporations often gained twice or more profit margins than during weimar. The wages of skilled workers fell from on average 98 an hour to 80 in 1933.

[#FF0000]

First coupla things you want to do is go to wiki-quote and find Hitler's quotes on Socialism where he says, basically, "Our socialism respects private property", and then the one from the table talks where he said "Calling it 'national socialism' was a shitty idea".

Then you want to point out that the Nazis had no actual economic theory and, in practice, were pretty much just a typical Keynesian war economy. If the Nazis were socialists or left-wing, then so was every country in the 20th century.

Then you want to point out other things. Nazis are nationalists, while radical socialists are internationalists. Nazism is based on philosophical idealism, while modern, marxist socialism is based entirely on materialism. Then there's shit like their traditionalism (which almost automatically disqualifies them from being 'left-wing') and fetishism of militarism, and their radical anti-egalitarianism.

[Ocean Seal]

"I absolutely insist on protecting private property... We must encourage private initiative."
-Adolf Hitler

Honestly, make sure to make them understand how stupid they are. Be as condescending as fuck because honestly these types have had it a long time coming. Hitler gave concessions to workers because he was afraid that if he didn't he would have his class collaborationist system overthrown by Marxists and Anarchists among other working class rebels. He didn't give feee healthcare for fun, just like all of the neo-cons who give old people medical services, he didn't give a fuck about the workers, he just needed a welfare state to solidify hegemony. The backbone of his party was the petit-bourgeois (small business) something that neo-cons glorify until climax. He was a strong interventionist something uncommon to the left all the way from Robespierre to Stalin. Not only that but Hitler followed a strong great man theory much like Mussolini strongly opposed to the Marxist "materialism". In short this should probably be enough to jizz all over the neo-cons, but otherwise collect more ammo.

[Geiseric]

Its common sense, the nazis simply had an extremely state run economy along with private ownership. Napoleon did the same thing during the french revolution, but he was still working in favor of the bourgeoisie. also concentration camps are simply the most blatant allegory of the capitalist mode of production.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Its common sense, the nazis simply had an extremely state run economy along with private ownership. Napoleon did the same thing during the french revolution, but he was still working in favor of the bourgeoisie. also concentration camps are simply the most blatant allegory of the capitalist mode of production.

The Italian government under Mussolini initially pursued a laissez-faire policy with regards to the economy. However, having a populist policy basis, once the great depression struck they could not let such a de-industrialisation slide and consequently the state took over the industries that failed and turned them into the new sector-based corporations (often under the old management). The Italian state thus ended up with the control over 70% of the economy.

In Germany, the policy was more pro-active and conventional. Rather than take over the failed companies, the state propped the existing ones up. This required no reorganisation as in the case of Fascist Italy, which suited the interests of the Nazi government better because of its reluctance to offend the large property owners (in Italy the economy had been so devastated by the depression that remaining large owners were less common or were happy to unload the unprofitable parts on the state). In terms of policy the Nazi government was a lot more conservative than Fascist Italy, owing of course to an assortment of historical and material reasons; but likewise, state-ownership and state-management was very limited in Nazi Germany and mostly relegated to those companies accused of being run by "jews" or otherwise failing to comply with the political agenda set out by the Nazis. Even major military production remained in private hands throughout the war, even during Speer's efforts to organise a planned war economy. This web of confused political ties and internal divisions and struggles with often a lack of overall structure was the one thing upon which the entire Hitler government rested.

Nazi Germany, then, was not even an "extremely state-run" economy. It was just regular private capitalism. Little changed from 1920 to 1940 in terms of overall structure, and if I remember correctly the state or local government ownership never stretched for more than 30% of industry or thereabout.

[Stadtsmasher]

I would sincerely like to thank everyone who added to this thread. Thanks for the polemical ammo!

I agree with some of you to some extent who have said arguments with lugheads like this never end well. But having seen the "Hitler is of the left" meme cropping up across the internet more frequently than I'd have imagined possible recently, I feel like I have to do something when one of these neoscums starts to influence his fanbois. Neocons are often slick at using "the big lie" but we don't have to take it lying down.

[RadioRaheem84]

If you were to re-watch Schindler's List from a Marxist perspective, the Nazi system looks like capitalism on steroids. How right wingers in the US conflate this system with one that champions workers rights is beyond me?

My guess is that the majority of people do not know anything about socialism or communism and conflate it with fascism. The fact that this confusion exists is tantamount to the insane propaganda the bourgeois unleashed on society.

They have no idea what this type of ignorance can lead to. I do not mean to be so alarmist but to spread that kind of junk out into the collective conscious just ruins any rational debate on the matter and serves only to completely amputate socialism from the national political discourse.

Twenty years ago it was pretty common knowledge that the Nazis were not left wing. It was mostly agreed that they were right wing extremists, but now it's wild to know that the media can literally turn things around to such a confusing level. It's scary.

[Zealot]

Don't fucking bother we shouldn't even have to defend ourselves against crap like this. Hitler made it his life goal to wipe out Communism, invaded the Soviet Union and suffered the greatest defeat at the hands of Socialist power. It's a fucking joke people even try to lump them together.

[Movimento Sem Terra]

The national socialism of the Strasser brothers contains the following characteristics: *European Collaboration: In contrast to the pan-Germanic imperialism and Nordicism endorsed by Hitler, Strasserism promoted pan-Europeanism. This pan-Europeanism would entail an economic cooperation between all European partners, so as to avoid the counterproductive aspects of economic competition between European states. Otto Strasser believed that all Europeans were of similar racial descent and therefore fundamentally rejected any theory of superiority between European nationalities or subraces. However, Strasser also believed in the preservation of unique cultures and ethnicities. *Federalism: Otto Strasser promoted the decentralization of Germany, turning the nation into several distinct cultural regions which would be self-governing autonomous communities, though all regions would practice the same socialist economic model. *Socialization: The Strasser brothers (and many other members of the NSDAP) promoted the outright collectivization of the means of production. Workers' councils were to govern their workplaces, with state oversight to ensure such businesses were acting in accordance with nationalists interests. The bourgeoisie were to be abolished and assimilated into the new socialist mode of production. Finance capital was also to be nationalized by the state. *Agrarian Reform: The Strasser faction of the NSDAP promoted the expropriation of the large landed estates in Germany, with the land to be redistributed to peasant families. All land would be owned by the state, but family farmers would be grated hereditary title the plots of land. The farms would remain in the possession each family until such time as the family no longer had a descendant willing to farm the land. After the fall of the Third Reich, several national socialist parties emerged in Germany, and throughout the world, most notably Otto-Ernst Remer's Socialist Reich Party and Otto Strasser's German Social Union Party.

[Geiseric]

Anyways fascism is the declassed petit bourgeois coming in to save the day for the liberal government style that failed Capitalism. this is done by terrorising workers, destroying organizations, and overall being ultra capitalist in the worst Orwellian sense possible.

[The Young Pioneer]

What a strange thing! I'd never heard someone say this until now and decided to google it. The problem with quoting Hitler seems to be that the right wingers do it to support THEIR point, too.

For instance, this shit:

http://constitutionalistnc.tripod.com/hitler-leftist/id9.html

Which harps about Nazi symbolism and the swastika in the Soviet Union and then quotes such Hitler gems as this:


There is more that binds us to Bolshevism than separates us from it. There is, above all, genuine, revolutionary feeling, which is alive everywhere in Russia except where there are Jewish Marxists. I have always made allowance for this circumstance, and given orders that former Communists are to be admitted to the party at once. The petit bourgeois Social-Democrat and the trade-union boss will never make a National Socialist, but the Communists always will.

:blink: